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Discussion: Platooning. Yes or No

Posted Discussion
Aug. 24, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Platooning. Yes or No
We've been discussing platooning (or patooning as it is spelled on one thread) or
"free defensive substitution,
a lot.
It has the potential to change the game we play significantly and
some of us think for the better.
Take a vote, yes or no.
Comment if you like and ask
if you want more info.
Aug. 24, 2006
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
No
Aug. 24, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
142 posts
NO
Aug. 24, 2006
Pudge
32 posts
NO
Aug. 24, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
590 posts
NO

It could change the dynamics of the game over the course of a few years resulting in depleted skill levels if a defensive team were mostly to field and an offensive team only to hit. The result could be a lot more one dimensional players. The important intangible of intra squad comradarie
could be damaged.
Also to be considered is our age (or any age bracket or level of play up to the MLB) is the fact that most injuries occur on the defensive side of the ball. Conservatively 85% or higher defensively to (maybe as high as) 15% hitting given the fact runners are easily available. Probably closer to 95% on the D side to 5% to the O side.
Even though some players feel better about one part of their game or the other most players have a tremendous amount of pride in both.
Aug. 25, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
NEGATIVE!!!!

I don't think we need any more info.
Aug. 25, 2006
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2582 posts
100% NEGATORY
Aug. 25, 2006
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2582 posts
100% NEGATORY
Aug. 25, 2006
Senior11
9 posts
NO !
Aug. 25, 2006
Robert
Men's 50
64 posts
No
Aug. 25, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
YES
Aug. 25, 2006
JOHN BOB
Men's 60
76 posts
No! our 55 aaa team looks for players who can hit & play defence that's the way it's been for year's why are we always trying to change the game?Hey is you have a great defence player but he a weak hitter he bat's in the bottom of order same as major league baseball or little league.There is always great hitter's that are not able to play defence a lot time its not their fault bad knee or knee's , torn rotator etc.
Aug. 25, 2006
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
NO....................
Aug. 25, 2006
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
NO!
Aug. 25, 2006
TotallyRec
Men's 50
32 posts
NO
Aug. 25, 2006
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
406 posts
NO!!
Aug. 25, 2006
RedEye
Men's 55
92 posts
No
Aug. 25, 2006
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
NO
Aug. 25, 2006
Dudley
Men's 60
23 posts
HELL NO! Play the game like it's always meant to be played
Aug. 25, 2006
Bob50
Men's 55
238 posts
No
Aug. 25, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Merely flesh wounds, Gary.
Ideas of merit often enounter resistance at first,
The fact that people are thinking and discussing and voting is a good thing.
Good exercise.
Fran, if you're watching and listening, I think having a regular part of the website devoted to debate and vote on important topics like platooning might be
a good idea.
HTG,
Einstein turning into Frankeinstein is a gem
I was too engaged to appreciate at the time.
Touché.

Now, let's see.
The exit polls are projecting a landslide victory
for the forces of evil.
Hmmmmm.
If I decided to invade SSUSA headquarters I might secure the edge I need
snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
Aug. 26, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
A respectful NO!
Aug. 26, 2006
bogie
Men's 55
141 posts
YES...Joe, I could see your head slipping under the water and as a buddy I wanted to help you get a gulpful of air. Seeing how I only DH anyway, I can see in limited circumstances that it would be of benefit...cut down the need for batting 14 or more in some tournies, yet getting all involved in the game with their best skills utilized.
Aug. 26, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Voting complied by bashbro 1 as of Saturday morning August 26th 5:18am!

Votes for Platooning: 2
Votes against Platooning: 18

1. Aug. 24
DMac
Division: Mens' 55
Votesā No

2. Aug. 24
Hit the gap
Division: Mens' 60
VotesāNO

3. Aug. 24
Pudge
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNO

4. Aug. 24
Pete D
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNO

5. Aug. 25
Dbax
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNEGATIVE!!!!

6. Aug. 25
BruceinGa
Division:
Votesā100% NEGATORY

7. Aug. 25
Senior11
Division:
VotesāNO !

8. Aug. 25
Robert
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNo

9. Aug. 25
Lecak
Division:
VotesāYES

10. Aug. 25
JOHN BOB
Division: Mens' 55
VotesāNo!

11. Aug. 25
Steinbrenner
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNO

12. Aug. 25
salio2k
Division: Mens' 55
VotesāNO!

13. Aug. 25
TotallyRec
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNO

14. Aug. 25
TexasTransplant
Division: Mens' 60
VotesāNO!!

15. Aug. 25
RedEye
Division: Mens' 55
VotesāNo

16. Aug. 25
Older Than Dirt
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNO

17. Aug. 25
Dudley
Division: Mens' 60
VotesāHELL NO!

18. Aug. 25
Bob50
Division: Mens' 50
VotesāNo

19. Aug. 26
bashbro1
Division: Mens' 60
Votesā A respectful NO!

20. Aug. 26
bogie
Division:
VotesāYes
Aug. 26, 2006
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
382 posts
No
Aug. 26, 2006
Donny
Men's 55
4 posts
NO, thank you
Aug. 27, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
To date,
thanks for ALL the responses.
Debate and accountability are fundamental aspects
of intelligent and civilized life.

2 more no's Bash.
That makes 20.
Way to go.
That's 20 out of maybe 2 Brazillion viewers.
Hardly a majority.
And we're still waiting for the correct count
from Ohio.

And you forget me.
That makes 3.
And just like with the Marines,
all you need is few good men.

I spoke with one of your no voters today
who will not get cheap adverstizing out me
who said he'd rather die than platoon,
yet,
he agreed
it was a good idea to get bench players
seamlessly into a game.



Aug. 28, 2006
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
well i'm against it for this reason
you'll have about 20 guys on it this way right? well you win the tournament and only get xxx ampunt of awards who GETS SCREWED?
MY 2C.
Aug. 28, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Well "Softballer", that's kind of a 'Softball Question' you’ve tossed out to the user community. It's simple:
First all of the offensive players are PAID! And what's left over if any will go first to the P, then OF, then IF and last and definitely least, the C.

bashbro1 Playing out of Kent's Russell Road Softball Complex.

Aug. 28, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bash,
I could have sworn a couple of pages ago
you were trying to be helpful by making list
and calling for a vote.
Did I missread you thinking you were trying
to be helpful?
It could be read that you are clowning
the situation and shouldn't be taken seriously.
What's up?
Aug. 29, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Hey Einstein: That's how I answer questions like the one posed. No matter what the makeup is of a team when it comes to handing out the accolades someone ALWAYS get's SCREWED in their estimation. Why in the hell would platooning screw more guys than are already getting screwed? You must be able to read 'tongue in cheek' and hyperbole when I write as I am a professional technical writer with a very large aero space company in the Pacific North West.

basbbore1 Kent, WA
Aug. 29, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think it's a good point made if you mean it seriously.
More guys less awards.
That assumes a full complement of 10 and 10 or 20 players
which isn't necessarily the case with the essence of platooning.
You can platoon with 11 or 20.
It really doesn't matter.
It just means that the 11 guy or the one who doesn't bat
at the start of the game
can play his butt off on defense.
Aug. 31, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Looks like we survived the first round of resistance
with nothing but a few flesh wounds.
There's so many more of you out there and this is an important issue for all of us in Senior ball.
Maybe Fran will set up as an arm of the web page
an easier way to get a consensus from all the readers
on any given topic.
But for now, we're it.
Platooning or free defensive substitution
is a terrific idea that can help us all
in senior ball.
What do YOU think?
Aug. 31, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
Einstein, It apears like you lost to the NO's, go on to newer and BETTER things.
PLEASE
Aug. 31, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
Einstein, It apears like you lost to the NO's, go on to newer and BETTER things.
PLEASE
Aug. 31, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Not over till the fat lady sings
whoever you are Bill,
and the discussion has really
just begun.
So if you don't like it
don't read anymore.
There's a lot of people just coming to and through
the website who have opinions just like you and me
and may want./need to learn about platooning
and place THEIR vote.
Sept. 1, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
We here her singing in the background!!!!!!!!!
Sept. 1, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
60 Bill,
The only person I've ever seen use more than one exclamation point in any response to me
was Dbax.
You wouldn't be Dbax by another name would you?

Regardless,
I'm about to play 3 away, far away tournaments in the month of September one of which is in Alabama.
I'm already wincing at the idea
of making it through any/all of them
with energy at the end or without being injured.
.
Free defensive subbing or platooning would be a god-send for me or any of the guys I'm playing with/against so as to avoid serious dehydration or injury going forward.
On that argument alone and there are others
just as significatant,
platooning or free defensive subbing
is a powerfully positive idea that would help us, greatly
in Senior Softball.


Sept. 1, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
She's been singing for a month now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sept. 1, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Einstein when you go to Alabama if you play the team from New Jersey one of my real close friends plays either LC or RC, he will probably bat cleanup, goes by Snake, someone has got to tell me how this gentlemen hasn't been picked up by a 50 Major plus team, makes you wonder. Fun team to play against they love their beer.
Sept. 1, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
Nobodys making you go to 3 FAR away touries in one month, stay home for one or two. Rest youself for the fat lady singing.
Sept. 1, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Snake, eh?
Sure, Lecak.
I'll look for him and see how he plays.
Thanks for your input and support.
Sept. 1, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
Ok, here's what you do for these three tournaments. Play DH, that way you don't have to play the field. If defense is your strong point, after you bat, if you get a hit, get a courtesy runner. It is that simple. I can't imagine traveling all the way to Alabama and playing defense only and not batting. Heck that is half the fun of playing. Einstein, I am being serious now.
Sept. 1, 2006
the wood
1071 posts
We also play in 3 events over the next five weeks... every other weekend. I have had 3 knee operations, an ankle surgery and various and sundry other orthpaedic issues. But I've been playing baseball/softball for over 50 years and see no reason to change the way it is played. If I'm not able to play my best (or close to it), I'll gladly sit out... whether it be because of inuries or poor performance.
As Mango stated two weeks ago, there is a lot to the strategy element of the game and, like him, I'd prefer to leave it as is.
Looking forward, they use an 11th defensive fielder in some of the older age brackets. Perhaps this concept would be more appropiate with them.
Since this subject has been on the message board for several weeks, I've had the opportunity to discuss it with many teammates. I haven't found one that likes it yet. But we only have 17 guys on our team and some might perceive this as a small cross section. I'm not in the position to say that it is or isn't the ideal group to base an opinion upon. But 100% in one direction speaks loudly to me as we seldom totally agree on anything... about the only other 100% thing would be that winning is better than losing.
Bob Woodroof, GSF
Sept. 1, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hi Bob,
It was fun playing against you guys
in Salem, last month.
You have some terrific players on your squad and some wonderful guys like Billy Swift.
I've polled personally way more than the 17 on GSF
and probably 75 per cent of them think
free defensive subbing or platooning is a great idea.
I respect your opinion and right to disagree and appreciate
the serious manner in which you have responded.
No one can or should make you change
your line up and the way you conduct business on your team yet,
would you be opposed to playing against my team,
some time, while we free sub on defense and you stick to the traditional way?
What do you think the outcome would be and why?
Sept. 1, 2006
the wood
1071 posts
To tell you the truth, I don't really care to hypothesize on the possible outcome of GSF v. Kelly's using your rules. I recall that there was no way the Dodgers should have beaten the '88 A's or the '63 Yankees. The game is best played on the field.
I can only take your word for it as it relates to the '75% that favor your line of thinking' because from what I've read it appears to be heavily slanted in the other direction.
I initially responded because you asked folks to do so and I offered my input as you requested. Beyond this, I have no interest in this extremely hypothetical matter.
The 'beep, beep, beep' that I'm hearing may well be the fat lady backing up to gargle. You apparently cannot hear it from your end.
:-)
Sept. 1, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks for the smile at the end of your reply, Bob.
Again, I think GSF is a terrific team and you added one of the finest players ever to step on a ball field
in Steve Callan.
He's one of the few players who always scares me
when he comes up to the plate.

In an earlier comment you said the only thing all your GSF guys agree on is that winning is better than losing.
Well, I hazard that free defensive subbing
will make you more likely to win than playing traditionally.
And furthermore, I think why some of the reaction to platooning is from a relatively small number of intense responders is because it in fact will make a significant change in the game...
one that I and many others think for the better.

I need not school you on the difficulty in changing anything
good or bad
that has been going down for a long time but
the problem with overcoming inertia doesn't by itself
signal the value of making the change.

So, respectfully I accept your disagreement but
nothing you have said demerits meaningfully,
given tradition and the inertia involved,
from the value that allowing platooning or free substitution
will have in the Senior game.
Sept. 1, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
In the last sentence above
I meant to say free defensive substitution.
Sept. 1, 2006
the wood
1071 posts
Einstein:
I was remiss in failing to acknowledge the compliments for Billy Swift (aka Billy Steele) and Steve Callan. They have both been big additions to our team in every way.
You also said some nice things about GSF in general. I thank you for this as well.
It's been a long road for us as we were only a quasi-established team 4 1/2 years ago... high major to low major +. The Old A's set a very high standard in the 55s and over the past 12 months it's been Turn Two.
We want to achieve the things that they have done.
Thanks again for noticing...
Sept. 3, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Wood.
Good luck to GSF the rest of the year.
We'll be in Palm Springs and Vegas at the end of the month and I look forward to seeing you, again.

Again, travelling to 3 very away Major plus Nationals in September has got me concerned.
I already have a hammy I'm nursing and if I could get some time off the field, like I could easily if there was free defensive subbing,
I and my teams would be a lot better off.
Again, guys,
Platooning or free defensive substitution
which would save my butt this month
would mean:
- higher player and membership enrollment
in tournaments, teams and associations
- significantly higher caliber of play
- less injuries
- longer player careers
- more fan enjoyment
- significantly better team chemistry
as it is easier to get all members into a game
without sacrificing scoring efficiency
and
in 5 seconds could be implemented
effortlessly without making any team
do it that didn't want to.

Lastly, I wish it was my idea
but it sure is a good one and worth serious consideration
by all who care about and play Senior Softball.




Sept. 4, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
590 posts
It appears that this "important issue/discussion to senior softball" is ONLY important to one person. The majority has spoken and for all legitimate reasons. Give this thing the dignity of the death it has earned and deserved about 40 or 50 replies ago.
Sept. 4, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
The FAT LADY is still singing for you, please move on to something else and stay home and heal. PLEASE.

Bill
Sept. 4, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey guys,
If you think you're bored with my arguments
and reasons
how do you think I feel
hearing the same tired, old put down's?
Now, we've heard a lot from a couple of you.
We get it.
You don't like platooning or free defensive substitution
and your proud of it.
OK.
Stop making comments.
No one is asking you to.

But this ongoing discussion, argument and exposition
is meant for the rest of the viewers and players
and the new viewers and players
who hit the website all the time.

You say the majority has spoken?
Did you flunk math in high school?
We've recorded maybe 25 votes in all.
How many would say are out there,
looking at and potentially looking at
what we're talking about?
You guys are in danger of egocentricity on this one.
You say you speak for everyone else when all you have is a small group of support.
I know there's hundreds of people who read and listen and watch the arguements.
We want to expose them to the idea and make it
easier to discuss and think about as time goes on.
We want to get through the inertia that operates against making any change in the status quo.

So, simply.
If you don't like hearing about how good platooning
would be for senior softball, stop listening, reading
and writing on the website.
There are others who might want to hear more
and think more about it.

Sept. 4, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
This works both ways, OK everbody please sign in and tell us how loud the fat lady is singing. Its got to be real loud by now.
Sept. 4, 2006
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Joe, We already have defensive platooning. It's called batting fourteen or more batters, something we routinely do in the preliminary rounds. Once the elimination part starts we bat twelve max and are faced with decisions. Do we start the light hitting defensive specialist or do we put in the big hitter and then cross our fingers when we go out in the field. This has been a vital part of strategy since the game was invented and has decided many games. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too, and that is why I have to respectfully vote no to your proposal. By the way, "prolong careers"? Most of us should have been put out to pasture years ago. :) On that note, Bobby Tucker, WWII POW survivor and a fixture in the Burbank senior league, died last week at age 83. RIP, Bobby, we already miss you.
Sept. 4, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
590 posts
The fat lady is deafening.......

It's beginning to look like the trumpeting FOR platooning is taking the shape of literary self pleasuring rather than any valid issue.

The issue has been discussed and discarded.
Sept. 4, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DMac,
Batting 14 is batting fourteen
and is the deadliest thing you can do
to any lethal line up.
Everyone knows or should that
if you want to REALLY compete
you bat the 10 best.
Sorry D.
When you look at ALL the things
taken together that
free defensive subbing will bring
effortlessly and immediately
to senior softball
the tired, old single pointed arguments
to date
pale into whining.

Serious, intelligent and concerned players
will see through the initial cry-ing out
that comes with trying to change anything
in the face of tradition and fear
and look at platooning or free defensive subbing
on it merits and monster upside for the majority
of players, administrators, coaches and fans.

Pete?
Discussed and discarded by whom and how many?
Don't you have to know and consider the source
when evaluating judgements?

Lastly, for now,
it's a free country and a free website
and I'm getting the idea that there's a couple
of clowns out there who think it belongs to them
to decide what's important and what should be.
To them I say, "Honk, honk."

The majority of people in any constituency
are silent.
They listen, watch, make judgments and seldom speak.
They are being well served by the argument for platooning
or free defensive substitution
and, in the end, they will see who the true clowns are
and aren't
and they will make their own judgment.


Sept. 5, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
You ask on Aug 24 what people though about you idea.You go you anser. NO PLATOONING move on or change your name to Imrightyournot.
Sept. 5, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
This is fun.
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