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Discussion: WHAT IS A MAJOR PLUS PLAYER?

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Feb. 18, 2013
ricky bobby
2 posts
WHAT IS A MAJOR PLUS PLAYER?
hemet tourney last weekend 60 division,a major plus player,what determines that?is he a better player?or is he bigger stronger and hits homeruns?i have always been led to beleave that home runs are the major factor.but i dont know.if thats the case the one up rule takes the home run away from major plus team and is now equal with the major team.so why are we giving 5 RUNS?get it wright.next!ive been playing senior softball for 14 years ,with no balls or strikes,now we have a 1 and 1 count to speed up the game with an hour and one half time limit.REALLY!!!PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR BACKSIDE,I PROMISE THE SUN WILL SHINE!!
Feb. 18, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
and you point is?
Feb. 19, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
768 posts
I believe RB's comments were directed at the SCSSA and their tourney this weekend. The one up rule plus 5 runs actually gave an advantage to the Major teams over the major+.

IMO the one up rule is the "great" equalizer and no other benefit should be given. The weather was outstanding and the competition was even better. Getting the rust off and out of the joints was greatly appreciated. Congrats to Top Gun for their victory. The Top Gun program overall is becoming a force to be reckoned with.
Feb. 19, 2013
Marv19
Men's 60
450 posts
Just saw Mikes post and read the others. Glad you guys had a good time Mike. Joe Brown is a class act and a very nice man. We loved having you guys there. As far as RBs comments here are some facts. The One and One count was an experiment that we did 3 tournaments ago. Its intention is two fold. 1: To keep the tournament on time and 2: to potentially give the players more at bats. Its only logical that if you can get 7 in more guys will theoretically have more turns at the plate. So here is the results from this tournament.

64 games in two days

42 went 7 innings or more.(We had two that went 8)or 65% of all games.
16 went 6 innings or less or 25%
6 games were flip flops so they didn't go the 7

One of the biggest complaints we have had over the last 3 years is not going 7 innings. The two tournament experiment and the one last weekend tells me we have made a major step in overcoming this complaint. I challenge anyone who runs a non 1 and 1 tournament to have those kinds of stats.

As for time: We went over exactly 22 minutes for the last game on Saturday and 28 minutes on Sunday. And that includes two 8 inning games. Remember we had 4 divisions that had championships on Sunday and the those games had to go 7. All In All no one except RB above complained about the 1 and 1 count. Jerry and I will be glad to discuss any and all issues anytime at any tournament or you can call us.
Feb. 19, 2013
FOFO
Men's 50
174 posts
Played in 55 Major. Enjoyed the 1-1 count. It does keep the game moving and gets everyone more AB's and play more innings. Wish SSUSA would adopt the rule. I also like the 1 up rule but feel in Major it should be an out not a single when your out of HR's. If you want to hit more HR's play Major +. The 5 runs and 1 up did enable some of the Major teams to hang with the Major + teams. Only downside was the long wait between games on Sunday. 8:00 first game and 2:00 second.
I would most certainly play in this tournament again.
Feb. 19, 2013
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Hey Mav19, I was only able to make the Sundays games, because of work, I can only speak for myself....I only played two games, 6 ABs. No problem with 1&1 count, and I did not even mine the 1 up rule. It made a more competitive game in my opinion. Congrates to Top Gun for beating us in the championship game. Yes Mike, the 1 up rule favors the better base hitting team and this weekend it was Top Gun. So we learn Sunday, that All that power anit Sh-- , if you don't know how to hit the ball in the park from line to line.
Hey Webbie, I looked around for you guys, to drink a few more beers but you guys had left the Park. Thatís a great bunch of guys playing for Joe Brown; you guys are an awesome M+ team. And that a fact! That 1 up rule helped us by keeping your whole line up in the park. Hell of a Team Mike.
"Murders Row"!
Feb. 19, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
FOFO thanks for your honest opinion about the 1 and 1 count.. it's the way it should be IMO... moves games along and more ABs per game per person!
Feb. 20, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1995 posts
Kennard-I had to catch a plane in San Diego-not a lot of time to spare. We had a couple guys with issues on that and I want to thank Marv for working with us on the scheduling so we could get our games in and make the flights.
We are going to have fun and compete well, I think. We had a player shortage by only having 11 Sat. and 12 Sunday and one with a hamstring issue this weekend, but it got the cobwebs out. It was the first real outing for the cold climate players. My 2 bp's in Albuquerque were in 26 and 45 degrees-no fun. You guys are right there also, as usual. It should be a very competitive 60 M+ division this year. Thanks for the beer-I'm buying next time. See you in Vegas!

Also, 1-1 count was not a factor hitting to me, personally.


Ricky-I asked that question last year when I made the jump from AAA to M+. If I can do it, surely a lot of others could do it successfully. I have begun to believe the difference is more mental than physical in a lot of cases. There are a lot of 'major' players that have just as much ability as the 'major plus' players. And, even AAA players. Desire is another factor-lots of guys don't have the stomach to put the time in to play that level consistently. They would rather play at a 'comfortable' level and have fun. And, I do agree with your premise that one penalty is enough when playing a different division-5 runs and reduced home runs is very tough to overcome.
Feb. 20, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1995 posts
Oh, and also congratulations to Top Gun on their victory! Very solid team!
Feb. 25, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1995 posts
I was hoping more people would talk about what it is to be a M+ player. I firmly believe there are a lot of players that could/should play that level, but don't for various reasons. If you feel you could, why are you not? Or why do you think you can't?
Feb. 25, 2013
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
Webbie..Speaking for my self...Never been asked..I have the speed and glove but don't hit for much power...I'm also not a big guy..I play 65's and play league with few Major+ guys and hold my own..I also play 60's..In the 60's I have an average arm from the OF...my arm is better than average in the 65's from the OF..I can play anywhere needed but most of the guys I know that are Major+..have a I am better than you attitude...Some are, some aren't..That's just a small samplingi of what I hear from other guys.
Feb. 25, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
Webbie, what took you so long to make the move to Major plus? My reasons for not play plus are many... First of all the comp in 50s Major is excellent! Number 2 the lack of 50 plus teams in the country and areas that we play in make it a dreaded move.. I know a good/Great team like MTC would of preferred to Stay in Major if it could of because of these reasons.. Nobody is afraid of M+ but the way it's set up kind of makes it hard to play with so little teams, everyone has to travel to get 8 teams in a tourney..Well, that's what I have observed in the 50s....
Feb. 26, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1995 posts
swing-it was isolation here in NM-pure and simple. I could not afford a lot of travel until recently, and so I played mostly in local tournaments. We had nothing higher than AAA. The closest major or major plus teams were Phoenix-420 miles, and Denver 450 miles. I played class A or B up to 2006.I started playing senior ball at 54 at Winter worlds in Vegas 2006 playing AA-for one tournament. Then played 50AAA with the Desperados from 2007-2009, then 55AAA in 2010 and 2011 until last year GSF asked me to play. It has been fun.
Feb. 26, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
I'm sure it is.. I have been working with a team in major and was hoping the team worked itself to Major plus... I have been asked to play Mplus so that stroked the ego enough, but I have a loyalty to the guys I've been playing with.... That's why I haven't made the move nor intend of making a move without my teammates! Pure and simple...Have a great Season Webbie, Joe says your a hell of guy and player!
Feb. 26, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
Webbie, for those that are not in the know,, I was hitting with Joe the other day... We all hit with stock U-trip bats as not to break our senior bats... Well Joe was having a nice round about 35 swings into his round... he uncorks on one and hits it over a 350 ft fence by 20 to 30 feet.. Keep in mind everyone Joe is 63 years plus old... truly amazing.. gives me something to shoot for!
I played with joe and in his 60s he's hitting the ball as far as he was in his 40s..
Feb. 26, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
with no special bat!
Feb. 26, 2013
ju25
Men's 55
149 posts
IMO any composite bat is a special bat. I am turning 60 this year and hit farther now than I did when I was in my 20's swinging an Orange Easton 36oz. or 34oz. XBH. The difference being , we hit Harwood balls(lopsided by 2nd inning) with lead pipes. SB12's were an upgrade for us. Distance improved dramatically when we started using red & blue dots and singlewall bats came out. Composite bats have a higher bbs than aluminum bats and there is no comparison when it comes to sweetspot. I remember when the Ultra came out, we were hitting 47/525 balls, this bat outhit a Bobby Buggs PST by 50'. Major + players IMO are the best of the best. Your Major + teams are made up of the best players in your area. Most Major players could play Major +. Major + has the best hitters in the game , these guys can hit for power or shoot the gaps when HR'S are gone.
Feb. 26, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
JU25, you might be right if we were hitting the same balls that we were hitting in the 80 and 90s.. now they play the balancing act between hot bats and balls...Doesn't matter to what I was saying about my Buddy Joe AKA Einstein.. He hit a ball that anyone would of been proud of and he's turning 66 next month!
Feb. 27, 2013
Tim Millette
521 posts
Back in the 80-90..

The top levels (Major/AA) of softball used a lower core ball then they gave the lower levels that Cried like spoiled kids when the ball core was attempted to be lowered in their games.

Unless you were playing on the baseball fields at the Major World Series...upper ball tourneys used some version of restricted flight.

Now...onto today's senior softball games....I see it like golf...

kids on baseball fields/Major World Series = Black/Gold tee (professional)

Kids and seniors using non-senior bats=White tee box (men's tee)

Senior using senior bats=Red tee box (a women's tee)

In the end....it's really sad what the game has evolved into...I mean....we really need to be able the hit the ball faster/farther then we could when we were younger, stronger and faster??? All while our reflexes get slower with every passing day.
Feb. 27, 2013
FOFO
Men's 50
174 posts
Well Said Tim. Also just like golf, Technology has made it easier to hit the ball without having to work on your game. Little skill is required these days to mash a softball. It's a little different than when you were trying to hit with your Howards Western Steer that's for sure. If hyou didn't work at it you weren't very good.
Feb. 27, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1995 posts
Swing-tell Joe Hi for me. He saw my lowest average tournament of the year so I know he is just being nice. He is an impressive player. One question-in one post above you said he was 63 and in another he is turning 66. Did he skip a couple years?? LOL
Feb. 27, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
Yep Webbie, I made a mistake on the 63... he's going to be 66... and to hit a ball that far with a $70 non senior bat was amazing....
Feb. 27, 2013
Tim Millette
521 posts
Joe and I have not seen eye to eye on many softball related issues but.....when it comes to playing at 66..... No one has Joes ability.

You show me another 66 year old able to pitch in the 50 Majors and hit somewhere in the middle of the order and maybe we can argue the issue...

I heard Joe even out hit "Swing" in some sf pickle juice leagues...
Feb. 28, 2013
the wood
1096 posts
Tim,
Have you even seen 65 teams play? There are a lot of guys that can pitch and hit in all parts of the order.
This is not to take anything away from Joe.
BW
Feb. 28, 2013
the wood
1096 posts
RB, a M+ player is, IMO, anyone that can play at that level successfully. It isn't defined by power and this becomes more true with each ascending age group. It isn't defined by the number of 'alledged tools'. Granted, there are those with many tools and those with power.
Turn Two has been one of the most dominant M+ teams over the past 8 years. Not all of their players are multi tool guys (3-5 tools) and not all have power. But every one of them know how to play at the M+ level and know how to win. Their team success isn't because of just 2-3 guys.

Marv:
I'll respond to your challenge of Feb 19. I did not run a tourney using the 3-2 count but I did play in one. We played in Palm Springs at the same time your tourney was going on. We played 5 games. Three went 7, 1 went 6 and 1 went 8. If we throw out the 8 inning game and just focus on the other 4 it's fair to say that we went 7 innings 75% of the time.
Btw, we were allowed either 3 or 6 HRs (and then an out) as opposed to '1 up' and still played full games. So is 75% greater than 65%(hypothetical)? For what it's worth, no one hit HRs for an out (to my knowledge).
You might say that our 5 games is a small sampling compared to the 64 that you mentioned. I'll concede this. But I can provide the SSUSA figures in LV (last fall) which includes a much bigger grouping. They used the 3-2 count, many more HRs (and then walks) and still had a higher percentage of 7 inning games. I do not personally believe that 65% is a figure that ought to generate pride... 1/3 of the time the games went less than 7.

RB, I apologize for getting off the point of from your original post.
BW
Feb. 28, 2013
Tim Millette
521 posts
Wood, I play, helped with their swings, and have known many of The Old A's since they started playing senior ball.

I am basing my views of Joe's playing ability while comparing him to the Omen team, and their players I know.

How many 65 year olds do you know that were asked to come pitch for a 50 Major PLUS team last year?

Joe's playing ability has nothing to do with his limit of teams to play with.

WHAT'S THE WORLD COMMING TO.....I AM NOW DEFENDING JOE;-)

Woodie, I am still waiting to see that list of 65 plus guys that pitched 50 major Plus last year.

You seem to know the 65 players...who else over 65 has actually been picked up to start as a pitcher for a 50 Plus team?

I await your list.........................
Feb. 28, 2013
the wood
1096 posts
Tim, I am aware that you have worked with a lot of the senior guys in Nor Cal. But that is only one team and one part of the country. I will say though that Omen's pitcher, John Dorsett, has been pretty effective pitcher for several years... with Omen, MTC and perhaps with the Old A's.
If you really want me to respond to your question you might stop changing the parameters. First you say 50 M and then change it 50 M+.
Do I know someone Joe's age that pitches for a 50 team? No. Do I know of several guys playing 65s that can do what Joe does on the mound and/or at the plate? Yes, I do. Again, this is not meant ot be in any way demeaning to Joe. He definitely has some good skill sets. My point is that Joe isn't the only 65 player that does those things.
But I've never been a big proponent of skills, tools or the like in of themselves. I've always been more moved by players that win. Aside from camaradarie this is why we play.
To name a few would be detrimental to many but I'll name a couple that I've played with over the past few years, have won national events with us (multiple times), happen to be 65, have Joe's power and are on our current roster. Ron Danoski and Conway Waddy come to mind. Both play other positions as does Joe. Conway plays all 10 positions.
We also have a couple of other pitchers who have been very instrumental for us but neither have Joe's power. You seem to be infatuated with power so I confined it Ron and Conway.
Joe knows both of them.
By the way, how old is Joe today? It has been a rough week for him... 63 on Monday, almost 66 on Wednesday. :-)
BW
Feb. 28, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Tim,
Any 65 M+ team out there has a pitcher. There is the 'list' As for Joe, he isn't like most others though he can play all positions. I doubt many can do that as well as he can.
I've known him since the late 90's. Played against him back then and watched many of the games he was in all over the state and NV to date.
So ya, you should defend him.
Better watch out he might sick his dog on ya...lol.
Feb. 28, 2013
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
Scott isnt Joes dog named Stoneman? =)
Feb. 28, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
Well guys, I just wanted to praise a guy who I have played and practice with, that is turning 66 in a month and can hit a softball 380ft with a non senior bat! I'm sure there are a few more around the country at that age that could do what joe does, however this takes nothing away from Joe.. He's in the top fraction of a percent when it comes to doing what I have seen him do. I think to myself at 52 I have a long career left ;-)!

BTW Tim, it's good to see you praise Joe for a change..
Feb. 28, 2013
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
Met Joe in Vegas last year...Just a great guy but I watched him just frickin rake the ball...Seemed like every time I watched, he hit one out..Never played against him due to the fact I don't play at that level, but the thing that impressed me the most was he was just a good guy with a lot of skill.....I'm sure there are more guys like that, I have just never seen a guy his age with that much skill...
March 1, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
E4-6,
Not sure about that dogs name. But I don't think I'd want to go there with either of those two guys.
March 1, 2013
ju25
Men's 55
149 posts
Swing,

Composite bats when broken in can be as hot as a senior bat. Usually don't last very long after they reach that point though. Joe himself said he had a freak+ that was as hot as any senior bat he had swung. Unless you are hitting 52/275 balls there is no balancing act between hot bats and balls. The 44/375 trumps we hit in senior ball fly with most composite bats. Joe is a great ball player(380' at any age is an accomplishment) and you can't take that away from him, but nowadays there are many guys at 65+ and some at 70+ that can crush a softball. Steve Papalas(my hero), who is going to be 73, is a 5 tool player and he tells me that there are 5-6 guys on his team who outhit him.
March 1, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
JU25,
Name some 'senior' bats that are NOT composites. I can't recall a single one that is a alloy, ie metal bat.
but yes not all are as hot as they will be after a break in.
March 1, 2013
JamesLG
305 posts


I have no idea what a M+ player really is but this year I am fortunate to be one. At 60 I figure it is a good chance to see how I really measure up. The only negative I see is having the M+ tag that I hope they will do away with some day.

As for Joe, I met him on this board a few years back and he went out of his way to help me get a USSSA bat. A few years later I met him in person in Portland Oregon. Two years ago My Son went with me to the Northwest Nationals in SAC and Joe spent an hour of his time talking to my Boy about hitting. I have yet to see him play but he enjoys this game as much as any person I have ever met. I don't always agree with his views but we all have our own opinion. He is good for senior softball.

Thank You:

James
March 1, 2013
ju25
Men's 55
149 posts
Taits,
Where did I say anything about senior bats not being composite. I was referring to composite bats in general(IMO special bats) when broken in can be as hot as a senior composite bat.
March 1, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
Ju25. Did I mention the wind was blowing in too! No kidding! It was a great shot with any bat at any age. It was a 65great year old against the wind with a black trip synergy not shaved! End of story!
March 1, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
U trip grrrrrrrrrr auto correct
March 1, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Ju,
your 1st sentence alludes to that Another words my point is senior bats are composites. No can be about it, they are. May have been better to sam other assn composits can be as hot as sr bats ???
Your right, but it was the wording. imo
March 3, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1995 posts
Wow, swing-now the wind was blowing in for Joe's 'shot'. Whew! What's next? The gravitational constant change just for the duration of the 'shot'? Sorry, couldn't resist! LOL
March 3, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
Yes Webbie, it was a biblical event! ;-)
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