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Discussion: On the right track

Posted Discussion
Sept. 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
On the right track
I've been finding out some important stuff
on this website.
I think it has a tremendous upside for real debate and idea dissemination, when taken and done seriously.
Yet, we seem to have a couple of gestapo like clowns that either want to ridicule or over-control the space.
To you, whoever you are and aren't,
Dbax-60 Bill, Pete, Bash et al
it is my contention that either ridiculing someone
who seriously puts forth an argument of merit
or trying to censure any serious discussion of something that can benefit others
is wrong and I, for one, don't like it.
I see tremendous value in discussing important issues and see this message board as capable of providing
great service to all of us in Senior softball.

I'm Einstein.
I'm at many of the tournaments you go to.
I'm hard to miss.
Please look me up any time
if any or all of you wish to take up
what I've said to you or about you further.
I won't let you down.

In the midst of all this controversy and rubble
I've come to realize more and more
just how good an idea platooning or free defensive substitution is for Senior Softball and will continue
it's argument as I continue on in Senior Softball.
Sept. 6, 2006
Stones 1B
Men's 55
52 posts
Einstein...I see your point and it is valid.
The nay sayers are ones that don't see beyond what this could do for senior players and the senior game.

I for one am for it. Free defensive substitution or platooning. Whats wrong with it?
If it's implemeted into a league or Tourney use it or you can choose not use it. It wouldn't be where you HAVE to use the rule.
To have it in the rules would help others that want to play but can't be the so-called "ball players".

You can only have 20 players rosters anyway so what's the big deal. We have almost "unlimited" courtesy runners.
Same principle.
Stay on it Eins...that's what the discussion board is for.
See some of you in Vegas for the 50's Sept. 29-30-Oct. 1, 2006.
Sept. 6, 2006
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
First I think that it is important to point out at some point (and I guess I'm doing that now) that for every idea there is always going to be criticism regardless of the idea. Change always encounters resistance! Having said that I don't agree with calling anyone out over a message board posting unless they talk about your Mama or something. I guess sometimes we let our emotions overtake us when we feel strongly about something. Still this board is not the place for that regardless of who we are or how we feel about a topic!

Anyway, getting to the original topic that started this, I think compromise is always going to be the answer when we talk about asking for changes. So how about some middle ground on this topic? In ISA Fastpitch they allow you to bat upto 11 players with 2 of them being additional hitters (AH). You can also have 2 players who only play defense and don't get to bat. They are called (DEFO) Defense Only. You then have one Base Bandit. So in practice you can have 14 players in the game for one team but only 11 batting. This is similar to what is being discussed here but does not go all the way to having unlimited platooning as it is called here.

Maybe the model above in Fastpitch is more acceptable to everyone and accomplishes the proposed benefits if it is tailored back to a limited number of Hitters and Defense only players in the game at one time? Just a thought.

And my name is Mike Walker and I'll be in Vegas at both the 50's and 55's tournaments if anyone wants to discuss this with me.... haha :-)
Sept. 6, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
Here's a thought. Some of the financial message boards have a feature called the "ignore button". This is for real. It allows you to ignore posts from people that you consider annoying, irritating or those that have nothing constructive to contribute to the conversation. The webmaster could add this function. That way einstein could only read messages from those that agree with him. Dbax, 60 bill, Pete, Bash, et al could ignore enistein droning on about platooning.

Sept. 7, 2006
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
Gary, if you get a chance to meet Eintsein you will understand. He is a great guy with a wonderful attitude on life and fun to be around. But he has a killer dog. Watch out.
Sept. 7, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey y'all,
Back to the argument at hand.
If you allow courtesy runners, which we do,
in order to give a player a blow who's not in condtion
to run well,
and increase the efficiency with which a team performs,
isn't free defensive subbing the same idea?
If you've ever taken advantage of courtesy running
and who hasn't,
you have experienced the essential benefits
that free defensive subbing can/will do for Senior Softball
and that is,
get a guy off the field who needs a break before he gets hurt and/or
get on the field someone who can better help the team
win.
And no one is or should ever be forced to platoon.
Die hards can do just that, and in time
they will die hard
and that's what will happen when they try to stand up
to a competitive team that can free sub on defensive.
Free defensive subbing will raise the level of play
so everyone will enjoy more the experience of playing senior softball.
It will even shorten the time games are played
helping tournament directors stay on schedule
and help teams get more innings because more efficient defense will get teams on and off the field more quickly.

Once you allow rules to be changed in Senior softball
that can make things safer, better, easier, more profitable,
more efficient and more enjoyable for all involved
the idea of free defensive subsitution becomes more compelling all the time.


Sept. 7, 2006
Number 13
15 posts
We bat all 14 guys. 5 outfielders - rotates. 4 infielders - one rotates. Two 1st basemen and catchers they rotate. The pitcher comes out if hit hard but goes to outfield to replace his replacement in the rotation.

Are we rotating or platooning? In 100 degree Texas heat it all that makes sense! Senior softball is all about everyone who travels should be in the lineup. There should be no out for injured player except first ab after injury. Let's keep everyone in the game
Sept. 8, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey 13,
That's rotating and is to be commended
for your commitment and plan to get all your guys
into the game.
Platooning or free defensive subbing would mean
you'd only have to bat 10 and you could still get all your guys into every game, actually,
every inning of every game.
You can still replace the hitters as you wish given your strategies under the nomal rules of substitution.
This allows your rotation to have a positive rhythm
which keeps the batters "up" with anticipation
for their next AB.

I'm touched with your plan as it is because it shows a committment to all your players.
I felt and experienced too many times where guys
who come don't play or can't "get in the game"
and it rips into them and the positive chemistry of the team,

Free defensive subbing makes it easier to get ALL the players in a game easily at any time and without sacrificing offensive efficiency by having to add to the batting order.
And it can give any player a breather any time
without costing the team it's competitive edge.

Lastly, what about when you have more
than 14 show up.
Platooning can accommodate up to 20 seamlessly and effortlessly.
You can have more guys satisfyingly on the roster which can really help as injuries occur and replacements are necessary.
Right now, you have no way to keep a 15 or 16 guy happy
and you might need him in a long tournament or as one or more of your players go down.
Sept. 8, 2006
Number 13
15 posts
We should be so lucky as to have 15 of our roster at any tournament. But if we did - all would bat in round robin unless asking not to. In elim play, it may bepend on rule about injury. We may have someone sit for that reason only. But we all pay to travel - so we all play. Sometimes it is nice to have a few who love to be there and just be an AH/DH.

We hate when a tournament limits the number of hitter. We believe it is contrary to senior softball concept.

Let's ALL play!
Sept. 8, 2006
Number 13
15 posts
Letís also think of alternating innings.

Let visitors bat in first, then home bat in first, clear bases after third out and bat in second. Then change. Keep doing this and the hammer in the seventh still holds for home team. We did this in NY years ago and took 10-15 minutes off of game times. With the run limits, some times 5 or 6 guys bat and it is time to change places. So I canít see anyone getting too tired.

This eliminates 6 times the teams would change in a seven inning game. At 2 minutes per change, 12 minutes could be saved. It works!

What do you think einstein?
Sept. 8, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey 13,
I know a prominent coach of a prominent team
who thinks you need 18 to go into any tournament
if you really want to win it, under the current conditions.
He and they are probably the most succsessful
in terms of championships won of any team in Senior Softball history.
So, he for one carries more than 14 religiously,
to any major tournament.

I love your "playing everyone is first" philosophy
but it runs into the philosophy of "if winning isn't important, how come they keep score", with special thanks to Billy Martin.
Batting everyone weakens the offensive production
of the team seeing as how batting orders are built on
having the best hitters appear in the first 5 or 6 slots
which means that they will get the most ABs over the course of a game or a tournament or a season,
thereby giving their team the best chance to get on base and score more runs.
Free defensive subbing is a better idea to incorporate both philosophies without losing the essential character of each.

As far as your alternate inning idea goes
I'm not sure I got it.
I remember playing when we played 6 outs or 2 innings at a time.
Is that what you mean?
It's an interesting concept but doesn't direct itself
to all the benefits and conditions that free defensive subbing does.
It only shortens game times.

Thanks for the arguments and the responses, 13.
As they are real,
keep 'em coming.


Sept. 8, 2006
Number 13
15 posts
einstein, alt innings was not an alternative to platooning, just another thing to think about for making things better by getting more games to 7 innings. This get more time for more people to play. Other than top of first and bottom of seventh, you bat two innings every time you come in.

I can see we come from two different schools, but think we can disagree and still respect each other. Hope to meet you some day. I'll be in Palm Springs, and Mesquite and St. George.

Let me guess a little bit. You are younger and would always be one of the 10 who would hit. You and your teammates probably don't pay your own travel and lodging costs. That is the only way you could always get 18 players.

This is the fifth year for my 65 team. We are from midwest, you probably Florida or Calif. We play 65-80 tournament games a year, You probably play more. We play AAA/AA, you, no doubt Major/Major+.

We play because we love the game and you play for Championships. Let me say that our AA championship in Plano last month probablymeans more to me than any your mean to you.

And using our bat everyone (14) approach we our 14th hitter go 14 for 15 and our number 2 hitter go 16/18. In six games no player made more than six outs. And, we had 14 very happy players.

When you pay all your own expenses you want to bat as often as the rest of the guys, for the most part, you want to be in field a good number of innings. And while it may take a 24 man roster to get 14 to most tournaments, everyone knows that if he comes he plays. Some of us have one or two new knees and/or hips. Some have pacemakers and defibulators. I would not trade what we have.

I believe the existance of senior softball is more geared for us than it is you. We need alot of guys like you, but senior softball will only be available to you at age 70 because the organzations gear more toward us and our approach today.
Sept. 9, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
13,
I can tell you are a very good man and one who loves softball.
You made some assumptions about me
that aren't necessarily true.
My traveling team has 13 guys on it right now.
I play on a number of teams, all different compositions
and levels.
One of the wonderful aspects of free defensive subbing
is you can do it with 11 players, 12 all the way to 20
and it's just as effective and important and easy to implement AND your team doesn't have to change what you do one bit when you play against us,
if you don't want to.
Why would you not let my team platoon
if it didn't cause you to change what you want and are used to doing?
Why should you care?
Sept. 9, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
HTG,
Your sideways comments about me
did not go unnoticed.
You are wrong in both matter and form.
But I'll let them pass this time
as a matter of good faith,
and again
your comment about
Einstein turning into Frankenstein was priceless,
but I will expect better of you,
next time.
Sept. 10, 2006
Number 13
15 posts
Sorry, I was misled by coach 18 guys item. And, yes I would allow you to play that way against me. I would, however, feel bad if some of your guys only got to play on field and not get to hit.

And, since you said nothing about the travel costs etc part being wrong, I hope you can always play that way. When I go to 70ís next year I will probably have to cut down from 12-16 tournaments because of cost, not because I have lost desire or skill.

I donít even want to go near the ĎI play on a number of teams, all different compositions and levelsí item. That opens a can of worms I want to avoid.

Back home I play M&W morn 65+ games, T&T morn 55+ double headers and I get 65-80 tournament weekend games. But it is the travel (and resulting good times) that makes it work. And I find it very difficult to get players to travel and not expect to play 100% of the time. I 65+ and up you need more than 13 for injury protection. So if you want them to return, you had better play them.
Sept. 10, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
13,
Congratulations.
You sound in excellent shape
which is the primary ingredient to being able
to play well at all.
I'm glad you said you didn't care if another team
wanted to platoon while you didn't because
the make up and mantra of a team varies
from one to the other.
Best of luck to you, staying healthy and enjoying the rest of your softball career which doesn't seem to be slowing down
anytime soon.
That's really an inspiration for all us.
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