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Discussion: You make the call

Posted Discussion
April 2, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
You make the call
This was at a high school baseball rules meeting last week. The assignor wanted us to take a rules test and let us break up into groups of 5 to take the test. The test wasnt required to be an ump, just something to learn from. Of the five in my group, 2 also umpire college baseball. The one question was:
Runners on 1st and 3rd, one out. Fly ball to right. Runner on third tags up, runner on first plays it halfway. Catch is made. Runner from third comes into score. Runner who played it halfway goes back to first but trips and falls down. Right fielder throws to first doubling off the runner for the third out. Does the run that came in from third count?
April 2, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1271 posts
YES (Softball rule application, presumably the same in baseball) - This is a "timing play" and the 3rd out of the -inning is not the result of a "force play", which would negate the run. A "force play" only occurs when the runner is advancing to the next base as the result of being required to advance. With the batter out on the catch, the force is removed, and throwing behind the runner to double him off is the circumstance by which the timing decision is made on scoring the run or not. Ruling: Run scores and -inning at bat is over.

April 2, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Correct SSUSA Staff. Unbelievably, both college umpires and one other in our group got it wrong in that they felt it was a force play and thus no run. The run scores if the runner crosses the plate before the runner was doubled off at first. If he crosses the plate after the runner was doubled off at first then no run--thus the "timing play" as you elluded to.
April 2, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
This is also where the 4th out rule can happen. The catch is the 2nd out, the appeal to first base is the 3rd out. They could then appeal the runner at third to keep the run from scoring and if that runner is called out for leaving too soon, it is the 4th out of the inning.
April 2, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Cal50 did you mean the doubling off at first and not appeal at first? Irregardless, you are correct in the "4th out" scenario.
I still can't figure out how two college umpires got this wrong--that is unless they are lying about being college umps.
April 2, 2013
Downs
50 posts
Gentlemen: having the good fortune and honor of serving as the UIC and umpiring at 10 NCAA Div. I & II College World Series, as well as serving as the ASA Metro UIC, your interpretation and application is correct. One additional clarification that should have been addressed, is the fact that on a fly ball, you can NEVER have a double play. Once a fly ball is caught, it then becomes an appeal play. The only force out possible, is if the fielder were to drop the fly ball, then a runner COULD be out if he/she failed to advance safely to the next base. Thus, a force out. The utilization of the term "time call" is absolutely correct. The appeal play. and therefore, umps out call, must occur prior to the base runner on third crossing home plate.
April 2, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
I would think that you can have a double play. Fly ball to an infielder runner thinks it is going through, fielder who caught the ball tags him. Do not need to appeal, he is out for being tagged off of the base. Unless you would be saying that the tag is an appeal play.
April 2, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Cal50 technically that wouldn't be a continous double play because if there was a runner on third who is fast enough to cross the plate before the tag was applied in your scenario that run counts. Maybe Usain Bolt is fast enough? :)
April 2, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
Oh I know it is not a continuous double play.
May 22, 2013
Jetboy
62 posts
I guess we got hosed the other night. One out, runners on 2nd and 3rd, fly out to left. Runner on 2nd thinking it was two outs takes off on the hit, runner on 3rd properly tags and scores. Defense throws to 2nd base getting the runner who left early for the third out. Defense successfully convinces the umpire the run does not count.
May 23, 2013
joel 1975
42 posts
was your umpire from traverse city named swanson??????????????????
May 23, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Jetboy, the run counts only if he crossed the plate before the out was recorded at second. Going by what you posted if the defensive team convinced the ump the run doesn't count either he didn't know the rule or it sounds like the umpire didn't glance where the runner crossing the plate was after the out was recorded at second.
May 23, 2013
Jetboy
62 posts
Runner on third did cross the plate before they got the guy trying to return to second.
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