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Discussion: How can SSUSA possibly reclassify an established Major+ team

Posted Discussion
April 21, 2013
Mark 44
Men's 60
56 posts
How can SSUSA possibly reclassify an established Major+ team
I am totally perplexed. A well known Major+ team gets reclassified before a major tournament? Why would they piss off 8 teams, to appease 1? Could it be that they have less than 4 returning players? I really doubt it. Maybe 7 or 8 guys all of a sudden have doctors excuses.. I tried to start a new AAA team with 4 major players and the balance of AAA players & was denied. As a major team we finished in last place, 3 out of 4 tournaments. Were we the strongest players on the team? No. Yet 5 of our ball players went to a AAA team & they stayed AAA, because those guys got medical exemptions. That AAA team turns around & wins a few different SSUSA AAA tournaments. How could this be?
I have played by the book, for my SSUSA career. I've been beaten by the Snow Bird rule, by a guy who works for Valdosta, Georgia recreation department. Does anyone really think he could reside in the beautiful resort state of Oregon, for 3 months out of the year? I don't think so.
I have managed Major & Major+ teams. Sour Grapes? No way. I've won more than my fair share of National tournaments.I just want what is fair. I may never even have to play this new Major team, this coming weekend. But every team that loses to them, will be thinking twice about playing in any future tournaments.
I didn't name names, but people will figure it out. Please explain to me how this keeps happening! Do people really have bend the rules, just to win? I guess so.

Mark McDaniel. 55 Major
April 21, 2013
ffdonnie
Men's 50
95 posts
Holy crap, are you talking about Fangrabbers? You must be. This is unbelievable. Reclassed how? Did their whole team quit? Any thing short of this is a major slap in the face by this association.I'm real interested in hearing how these guys got around the so called rules.
Staff, whats up with this?
One week before a major tournament. Unbelievable.
April 21, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Ok, Here is my take on it... FanGrabbers ranked major plus...that means everyone of their players top to bottom is ranked major plus... Now a major team can only pick up X amount of their players, I believe two... so let's just say they lose 3 or 4 players... this leaves 8 major plus players on a team.. My belief is that you can't have it both ways.. if they truly don't have the same team they should have to demonstrate that fact at their level, Major plus and then petition for a reclassification.. IMO! And not test out their Medal on a National stage in a lower division!
April 21, 2013
ffdonnie
Men's 50
95 posts
You mean follow the rules, like these:

How the Rating Process Works

Here is the SSUSA process for reviewing team ratings and appeals two times per year (ONLY in January and June):

We do an internal review of all teams based on all results of games played in SSUSA. The SSUSA database program flags teams that win or lose by an average of 5 (or more) runs per game.

We also independently review all teams that have filed appeals, and look at umpire recommendations on Game Cards for the teams and reports from Tournament Directors.

After that review is complete, we send a list of recommendations to our 12 key SSUSA Directors for their review and comment. When their comments comes back, we may modify the recommendations.

As soon as the decisions are made, the team ratings are changed electronically and managers are sent a letter (and/or an email) confirming the decision.

Terry Hennessy
(Cut and paste from this site).
April 21, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Maybe the better solution would be to let Fangrabbers play Exhibition only.... and see if they should be reclassified instead of throwing them down to Major without playing or showing what they have!
April 22, 2013
FOFO
Men's 50
171 posts
Well as it's not January or June, maybe it's a typo?
April 22, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I am just surprised the post was removed or at least I no longer find it for the reclassifications that was here.
April 22, 2013
neck10
498 posts
cant be fangrabbers they were bragging about nobody for them to play at the toc 55major plus
April 22, 2013
Marv19
Men's 60
444 posts
Whether its Fan Grabbers or not a quick check of the Vegas major division will tell you Fangrabbers are in with the M's not the M+'s. Another clue is the ratings tab under 55s.
April 22, 2013
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
It was definately Fangrabbers. Reclassified to Majors om April 12, 2013.
April 22, 2013
FOFO
Men's 50
171 posts
Look at the bright side. Should they be fortunate enough to win, I'm sure SSUSA will move them right back to M+.
April 22, 2013
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Alrighty then, that explains how our 4-team 55M+ LVSSA/SSUSA bracket shrunk to 3 teams right before the event. And even better, as a result we get to play the two 50 M+ teams, including defending champ NW Legends. Just sayin', and not complaining about the strong competition. We never duck it, and don't accept the "free stimulus package" runs offered as an equalizer, but WTF? Fan Grabbers finished 3rd in last year's LVSSA/SSUSA World, we finished 4th.

Mark 44, thanks for the heads-up and your restraint on only being "totally perplexed." STAFF - Like Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do.

Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55M+
April 22, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
It does seem that a few teams are always getting reclassified down. They win at a higher class and a few months later, they are right back down again. Three teams come to mind that they have been up and down in the past five years.
April 22, 2013
Mark 44
Men's 60
56 posts
I just can't for the life of me understand how they can be reclassified without playing . They finished 3rd in the worlds, at the major+ level. Plus, they won the TOC's in Florida!
April 22, 2013
Allan55
80 posts
Mark 44,
I have wondered why the major plus division is always small. Now I know. SSUSA appears to be the problem. Last year at the Reno tournament, there were six 55m+ teams in the bracket. After the tournament, Goodman Racing was dropped after going 3-3 (losing a couple of close games). Next dropped was the third place finisher Double play. I have no idea why they were dropped after finihing third. Maybe they stopped playing. Next came Robert's Construction (defeated MTC) and now Fangrabbers (without playing a game). I don't have an answer.

Swing,
I agree with you. You should have to play a couple of tournaments before any action is taken. Any team can claim they are losing players. However, the new players might be better.

Don,
It looks like we are the last two teams left from that Reno Tourney (MTC and Nighthawks). Maybe we should appeal to move down...everybody else is.
April 23, 2013
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
IF IT SMELLS LIKE --IT, IT MUST BE --IT , AND YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUS. SSUSA, WHY DO YOU ALLOW SAND BAGGING?
April 23, 2013
ffdonnie
Men's 50
95 posts
Well it's now obvious "staff" isn't going to try to defend themselves (probably can't). So how about you Fangrabbers? Whats up with this? You guys care enough to explain this?
April 23, 2013
Tim Millette
498 posts
Ssusa staff can answer the bracket issue but.....cannot answer how a team that comes in third at Plus Worlds gets reclassed down to major???

I'd really like to know how this can happen after the team that came in third at Major worlds (us) gets bumped to Plus?

Expect crickets on this one.lol
April 24, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
Although ratings changes are generally team-specific and not a matter for public discussion in an unregulated public forum, we will make an exception this time and offer the following: The reclassification was proper and consistent with the rules and procedures based on roster re-composition following the departure of a large percentage of the team as formerly constituted last season. If Managers in the Southwest Championships might have any follow-up questions, please see the Tournament Director (Dave Dowell) in Las Vegas.
April 24, 2013
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Thought that was a likely scenario, although we got bumped up by adding four major players, and then had to play another year at major, even when those same four left for another team (amicably and knew in advance). Probably easier to get bumped up to protect teams no longer your peers, than get moved down (you just become target practice for a year, not threatening any other teams in that division).
April 24, 2013
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
This REALLY SMELLS. There are a number of teams that took 5, 6 and 7th in the Championships and never saw a TOC and they weren't Reclassified. Who is the Master mind behind this....Dave Dowell? Or are you SSUSA throwing Dave under the Bus for making this SMELLY MESS.
April 24, 2013
SALSAKID49
Men's 55
117 posts
Why doesn't SSUSA just eliminate the MAJOR+ programs all together (ONLY for teams 55 & over)? It's not like SSUSA gets at minimum (5) teams in most MAJOR+ events. There are not enough MAJOR+ 55 & over teams in the country to make a decent bracket going into the World's...
April 24, 2013
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Please, let me make a Public Correction. Dave Dowell has nothing to do with Classifications of Teams, He only runs the LV Tournament.
April 24, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
canjack,
I don't think "nothing" or "only" belongs in that sentence.
April 24, 2013
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
SSUSA Staff - I appreciate, and suspect most others do as well, your willingness to respond to this question, even in an "unregulated public forum". In the spirit of transparency, it is absolutely the right thing to do. As your customers, we have every right to expect consistent application of the rules, and a straight answer to a fair question. This topic IS our business. It does not fall under the "double secret probation" doctrine.

It remains to be seen if the new rating is appropriate. In the location of this event, Las Vegas, it is entirely possible to discard almost your entire hand and end up with a better one.

It really doesn't matter to our team, we are disappointed to see them leave our division. One less team to play without giving pretend runs. They were a very worthy competitor, and we always had fun playing them. Trading quips with Johnny Hose is never dull ;)

Jose (Salsa Kid): Amen, I've been saying that for years.

See you all on the fields, good luck and good health to everyone playing this week in Vegas.

Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55M+
April 24, 2013
rick#8
16 posts
Can you even imagine the bitching, moaning and complaining, if they ever would do away with Major Plus, it would be never ending.
Had a similar discussion with some older players not long ago, and we decided that this is going hand in hand with the crap that started to kill this game years ago, with all the classifacations, not wanting to play this team , that team, seems that that generation is now the ones trying to kill the senior game. That was all 25-30 years ago, and now the same ones are of senior age. Sad.
April 24, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Rick#8,
Back then it was different, is was pretty much about the game, not for profit to get this or that under the guise of a no profit. IE : A business venture.
However, this is the best one out there even with all the flip side issues.

As for doing away with the M+, where would they go and they are entitled to a place.
They would HAVE to be incorporated into all the other ratings and it would be a nightmare re rating all the teams. I can just see all being lumped into one massive group or even two . then you will hear read about complaints.
Won't happen. But I do see why some would like the merge of the m\m+.
April 25, 2013
SALSAKID49
Men's 55
117 posts
LOL! Thanks, Don.. good luck to NightHawks this weekend in Vegas, hope you guys win it all.. wish I was there to playing it.. ;)

Rick#8,
Ha...! they're bitching, moaning and complaining Now..!
April 26, 2013
neck10
498 posts
same thing with roberts they go 1 71 in prelems then beat roberts 31 docs 29 roberts 28 hendricks 26 then get beat by nighthawks 35 roberts 34 for a 2 & 2 record then get droped to major.
April 26, 2013
rick#8
16 posts
taits, thats BS, it has never been about the game, has always been about the money, was back then and is today, what I'm saying is that it started with players bitching, moaning and complaining, they didnt want to play this or that team, if this or that team was in the tourney then we aren't coming, still goes on today, more than most realize.
Why do you think the Major division is no longer, the A division is dead, the B division is on its why out, C same thing, but look at the D and E, alive and well, Making all the money for the associations, compare that to the Major Plus dead, Major soon to come, but, AAA and AA everyone wants to play and stay there.
Perfect example, I played in the USSSA E Worlds a few years ago with my sons team out of AZ, they were short and asked in to go, I had to be in Orlando on Wednesday night because the tourney started on a Thursday, over 200 hundred teams, 200 hundred E teams, ya right, E teams that couldnt keep the ball in the park, they were not allowed any home runs, none. 200 hundred E teams,yes that is all about the money and teams not wanting to play where they should be playing, the only time it is about the game is when you're with your buds getting some swings because you still love the game. Just a thought, still goes on today in our senior game today, guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
April 26, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Rick,
Maybe that is your feelings about where you play or have played. Not where I have played, money wise. As for complainers they have always been around but not the masses I think your trying to say it is as I read it. The 10% ers as they say.
I have done my share of posting complaints on here but usually about a rule, ratings not about having to play any specific team.
As far as divisions go, I think those changed for various reasons, player dropped out, moved on, ratings changed from a team focus to a player focus slowly but is there now all over. Impact player list have been around at least from the 90's didn't help either.
As for you playing for an AZ team when I think I read you live in Conn, I wonder how that happened. Seems like whom ever "rated" those "E" teams did a crappy job or it was about the money to fill brackets, which still goes on. Maybe too you lost.
You have a choice to play or not, complain or not, we all have that. As for the teams wanting the edge, there is too many there I'd agree. Comfort zone in AA. I know of many re rated 2-3 years ago to 3A and are really good there now, could do Major in my mind also. But far too many kept in AA or they likely will not return because of who they might play... but do not know for sure.
Back in the 70s I played for Motorcraft, the whole team never complained about who we played, win or loose. No team I played for back then or now worried about it.
One exception, as a senior player I have only been on 1 team where they intentionally lost in order not to play a team and to try to come back from a losers bracket. We won 1 and were out the 2nd. That was not in ssusa though. It was mgrs strategy in that decision, but it didn't take into account another team might end up in same bracket to come back from.
April 27, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Should drop them to AAA then.. poor guys can't compete at major level! ;)
April 27, 2013
grd8sbnut
Men's 50
14 posts
Dave any Results in the 50 major+ and 55 major+ games
April 27, 2013
DaveDowell
Men's 60
1067 posts
Don't have the scores with me, but here's what I (think I) know ...

• 50-Major+ Game 1: Arizona Elite run-ruled NW Legends
• 55-Major+ Game 1: Summy's Nighthawks run ruled California Energy - Game 2: MTC 55's defeated Summy's Nighthawks.
April 27, 2013
nickname36
Men's 55
13 posts
Fangrabbers 3-0 saturday.........!!!!!!!!!
April 27, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Sandbagging seems to be alive and well. Pick your battles to win the wars.
April 28, 2013
rightrj1
Men's 55
208 posts
I played last year with the Fangrabbers, we played 55 Major + since they have been reclassified, does that now mean that my Status is now 55Majors or are the guys that left still rated Major +?.
It’s also my understanding that if you play Majors and add 3 Majors + players, you are then promoted to the higher division……….
So the Fangrabbers lose 5 out their 12 players from last year leaving 7 Major + players, then add a few new guys & get moved down to Majors after winning the TOC & finishing 3rd in the world…WOW SSUSA, you make a rule and can’t stick bye it!!!…I can see why folks are bitching, there seems to be NO clear-cut system you can follow, when it comes to ratings…..But there is a Rule on promoting & demoting teams, its just not always applied equally…….
April 28, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
I agree with you 100 percent ronnie...
April 28, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
rightj1,
IMO, yes and no depending on what you call equal. As I see it you a person, not a team
1. lets say you played AAA in 2010
2. you moved to major in 2011....Then in 2012 your moved to major+
But for 2013 you went back to Major.

Not sure you'd move up\down that fast but, it could happen. Hell some win but never move.
I believe the you (singular) will be considered into the overall team make up as having played in AAA,M & M+ levels over the last few years. But most likely would be M+ for the rate (highest rating played) & adding to the "score" players get or have for the combined team make up.

I know when I requested a look at a teams make up that they went back to 2009 which surprised me because I thought it was only two years. A lot can happen in one year to a person let alone 4 years. One player at major some years back. And at same time the team I was concerned about had I think 9 players either already rated at AAA or defaulted to AAA because of no history with this assn or another know national one.
I forget the count for higher rated players than where the team wants to play , say AA, but 3-5 players at a higher one seems right. Any more then it would be expected, I would think that they would be playing AAA until they all had history.
If my memory is correct a team has been moved up with one player a level up on the team.

IF I'm incorrect I'm sure I'll be corrected here.


April 28, 2013
Bob17
4 posts
They must have gotten another of their exemptions. Only kidding Terry.
April 28, 2013
Mark 44
Men's 60
56 posts
You'll never guess who went into the Championship game undefeated in the 55 major bracket?
April 29, 2013
Mark 44
Men's 60
56 posts
The forfeit came well into the game, as Top Gun III was getting beat up pretty badly by Fangrabbers. Top Gun felt that there were a few calls that weren't called fairly & took exception to the umpires on the field, which in turn led to the ejections & subsequent forfeit.
April 29, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Nice to know more info as to the why... but in any case, fact is, it was a win, and score goes down as 7-0.
April 29, 2013
rightrj1
Men's 55
208 posts
The game was forfeited well into the 3rd or 4th innings, with the Fan Grabbers up big….The Coach then protested a player’s status with the team and then from what I was told the coach spit on the umpire causing a forfeit!!! IMO the UMP did the correct thing!
So now that the fan gabbers have been moved down to majors, then proceed to win their 1st tourney, are they now rerated back to Major +?
April 29, 2013
fitter45
10 posts
The game was in the top of the third inning with the score 9-5 Fan grabbers, Noone was blowing anyone out. Get your facts straight.Calls from the unpiers had nothing to do with any of what transpired. It was a poorly described and interpeted susbstitution that started all the discussions. This led to arrguments which ultimately caused ejections. The umpire called the game end of story.
April 29, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
On this, one may want to read the rule for 'Regulation game"
Rule 5.4 "D" Also the paragraph doesn't mention forfeits, but does mention causes that place or patrons or players in "peril".
I would thing physical contact meets that standard.
Inning it was called may be the out used. lmao.
April 29, 2013
fitter45
10 posts
Guys ease up on the hear say. The umpire was never touched. He claimed he was spit on by the first player ejected. This was nothing more than the "Bill Cower" discussion. Fluid came out and he took offense. I am the Top gun Coach and was standing in between both the players in question. At that point the umpire walked away and it was over. This was all a huge misunderstanding had cooler heads pervailed could have been resolved. There's much more to this but it should stop here and move forward. Let's live to play more ball in the near future. Life is short enough at this time of our lives to get petty. Congratulations Fangrabbers.
April 29, 2013
pattontax
10 posts
Fitter45, I play on Fangrabbers and I agree with your comments. I was right there with you and any fluid that came out of your player's mouth was accidental and not intentional. It wan an unfortunate incident and hopefully we can put it behind us and enjoy playing some old man softball. The 100 degree heat may have had something do it.

For the record we won 5 games (including the forfeit) and lost 2 games. We certainly didn't dominate any of the games and we were lucky to win two of the games by 1 run in the open inning. I think we only hit our alloted 6 home runs in 2 of the 7 games we played.

I've seen comments about how we won the tournament of champions. We won that by default because we were the only 55 major plus in the tournament. All we had to do was show up with a team. We then played a 60 major plus team the best 2 out of 3 games, and they beat us the first 2 games. The championship game we got run-ruled and lost 43 - 15.
April 29, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Let's see, Fangrabbers roll the Major division... Let's get rid of a few more players and let them roll AAA! LOL I never saw this coming! Just saying! ;(
April 29, 2013
rightrj1
Men's 55
208 posts
Dave & fitter,
My bad I got my info 2 second hand! I think most believe from a competitive standpoint the Fan grabbers are where they belong in 55 Majors…..We are only questioning SSUSA’s rule on how it was done given the fact that you still have 7 players from last year’s team! So, if 3 of you left and went to another 55 major team would make that team now major +?
April 29, 2013
Allan55
80 posts
DaveDowell,
You were quick to point out the Fangrabbers went 0-2 in the seeding. However, nothing was said when they won the tournament. As far as leading the game by four runs...that doesn't really matter. The SSUSA moved up teams if they won the World by one run or more period. They even moved up teams that finished second and third. The SSUSA is at the crossroads now. A number of teams are watching to see what will be done. A mistake was made...now it is time to correct it. Remember...we are human and far from perfect.
April 30, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
756 posts
I don't have a dog in this fight.

Dave does not rate teams, that is done by George and ???.

Dave is not always responsible for everything that is posted from SSUSA, but he is the individual that facilitates the passing of the information.

On the surface, if the Fangrabbers were moved from Plus to Major then their roster had to have radically changed. They finished 3rd in Vegas at Worlds at Major+. NCI finsihed 2nd in Majors and was told REPEATEDLY that they had to move to Plus. NCI could have stayed at Major, but could have no more than 3 players from their previous roster of that year or any previous year.

If it is true, that there are 7 players on their current roster that were classified as Major+ last year then it is not passing the smell test.

April 30, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Ditto 4B... I could see this coming before they played.. and Many others could too! USA needs to stay on top of this type of smell test.. I know for a fact there are a few teams that play in that age bracket and rating that were pretty irate at the rating change.. Seems to me, a team ought to have to play a tourney with their new roster at the level they want to move from first before powers above make a decision on moving any team down! An entire team moving down is like adding 7to 10 M+ players to a major team. IMO
April 30, 2013
nickname36
Men's 55
13 posts
Good Job Fangrabbers!!! Hey hose, who is that left hander you picked up? Every-time I stopped to watch you guys play he got a hit to a different field. Its been a long time since I saw a lefty handle a bat that well, he is a keeper for sure.
May 1, 2013
ffdonnie
Men's 50
95 posts
I saw parts of several games this weekend. My observations, Fangrabbers were better then anyone else out there this weekend. They have quite a few guys who bang (obviously + players) but not a whole teams worth. They wouldn't have a chance against MTC55, and IMO that's why they sandbagged down here. In one RR game they were up and cruising, then just stopped playing the last two innings. It was so obvious, half swings from their big guys, suddenly balls getting to the fence, huge holes in the infield. Not just my opinion, but several people around me just shaking their heads. Does this take away from the team that won? Yes, which sucks because they are good friends of mine.
I'm only saying this because I think they would compete where they were in M+, but wanted that trophy sooo bad they somehow get re-classed the week of the tourney. AND SSUSA ALOUD THIS. What a joke. There were a couple teams that bumped up this year that have little chance of winning, but were told no these are the rules, when asked to re-class. Rules until now, I guess. This is what I saw and what I believe, hate me if you want. But this was just another black eye for SSUSA.
Don.
May 1, 2013
nickname36
Men's 55
13 posts
Sounds like sour grapes to me, what place did you finish this past weekend "FFDONNIE".
May 1, 2013
ffdonnie
Men's 50
95 posts
Not sour grapes at all. I just thought it was dirty pool when I first heard of it. And telling people what I saw.

edit: should be ALLOWED
May 1, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Nickname36, I know Don very well and he has never been about Sour Grapes and 100 percent about what is Fair in our game of SS...

SSUSA should definitely redefine their protocol on how Teams get dropped down... Like I said... let's see them play themselves out of the division first or total disband rather than see some Sandbagging going on as what happened this last Tourney..

Seems everyone but SSUSA knew what was going to happen.. SSUSA should be pissed at the FG for making them look Bad, or be pissed at the teams they Beat for not knocking them out of the Tourney ;-) Either way it seems silly to me that you can't add more than three M+ player to a Major team, but you can take a whole M+ team and drop them down a division with the loss a few players!
May 1, 2013
Allan55
80 posts
I can understand that there must be criteria (so many m+ players, etc.). However, I do feel teams need to be elvaluated by how they perform as a team. Nearly thirty years ago I remember a "B" team that would have a great season and then look to drop players so they would not have to move up to "A" level. Then they would hunt all over to get players nobody knew and would be able to stay in "B" and be just as good or better.

FFdonnie,
Today I also believe if a team can't win the World, they simply appeal to be dropped. I have seen a number of 55m+ teams lose 29-27, 30-29, 26-24, and petition to move down based on win/loss record. If a team is losing by small margins and scoring a lot of runs, win/loss records or where a team finishes should not be factored in. The Robert's Construction team comes to mind. They beat us in the m+ seeding in the World last year something like 36-35 and were reclassified at the end of the year. There are not many major teams that can score 36. Even if they dropped players, they should still have to play and prove they belong in a lower division.
May 1, 2013
400
Men's 50
77 posts
FFdonnie please provide "your" definition of "bang" because as the guy standing there watching guys from these MAJOR teams launch balls that left the yard in most cases 50 plus feet beyond where our guys were putting it. I need to understand your definition.

Addressing your perception of watching during parts of several games I can tell you that I watched every hitter in every inning and maybe you were delirious from the heat but I cannot recall anyone "half swinging". Huge holes in the infield? What I saw and constantly reminded my shortstop normally 2nd base) and the new 2nd baseman that they were too far up the middle.

I'm sure SOCAL 55's would take exception with you that they we were "better" than they were! A couple of mistakes at the plate cost them putting us in the losers bracket on Sunday. I would say the same thing that the teams we talked to pointed to Top Gun as the team to beat. Top Gun won a close game 12-10 against R&R Towing, in 90 plus degree heat. In our game they were beginning to have problems with guys that were beginning to cramp up due to the 90 degree heat.
May 1, 2013
ffdonnie
Men's 50
95 posts
Guys, the only agenda I have is with what appears to be SSUSA decision to drop a team down that may or may not deserve it, and tell everyone else you have to play three tourneys first before we even think about it. That is BS.

Swing, right on the money.

Allan I agree.

400, I guess I mean guys that do it at-will with ease. Most people know what true M+ guys hit like. If you remember Friday was a beautiful day, low to mid 80's, no wind, only two games, no cramps. I stand by what I said about the one RR game I saw. I never said anything about the other teams in the tourney, from what I saw they are all strong. You can spin it any way you want, I really don't care. You got your trophy, guess you're happy.
May 1, 2013
pattontax
10 posts
Regarding Fangrabbers, we lost the following players off of our 2012 team; Short stops, Mike Babbs, Glen Ingram; Left Fielders, Steve Mckinley, Leon, Charlie (from Oregon), Left Center, Jim Ross, Right Center Dave Laubacher, George Robinson, Right Field, Ron Chenier, First Base/Catcher, Jeff Nelson. I count that as 10 players, and I may left someone off. Most of the above players played Major Plus prior to joining the Fangrabber team. Only one of the remaining players on the team played Major Plus prior to playing with Fangrabbers in 2012, and he is 60 years old. Basically, the remaining players on Fangrabbers got dragged up to Major Plus due to the abilities of the players who are not on the team anymore.

Regarding, ffdonnie comments about sandbagging, we lost our first 2 games on
Friday. We certainly didn't sandbagg so we could get up and play at 8:00 am Saturday morning and play the number 1 seed if we were luckey enough to win our 8:00 game. I have never seen any Major Plus player with the ability to hit home runs at will. We have 1 real home run hitter on the team and he was walked intentionally about half the time. I don't call that sandbagging. We have a couple of other guys who hit 2 or 3 home runs a tournament, just like the teams we played.

We had a total makeover of this team and followed SSUSA procedures in requesting a move to Major. They granted our appeal based on our new roster and probably the fact that we were not competitive at the tournament of champions against a 60 Major Plus team.
May 1, 2013
Tim Millette
498 posts
So how many returning players did the Fangrabbers get to keep while dropping down a Division?

Looks like ten guys left....who remained?

I just want to find out because maybe our third place major team would wants to get down to AAA. Especially if we could keep seven or eight players.
May 2, 2013
neck10
498 posts
that 60 plus team(hollis) is probably the best 60 team in the country!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 2, 2013
rightrj1
Men's 55
208 posts
Dave,
Since you mention me, I thought I would respond….IMO the Fan gabbers are playing where they belong…From a SSUSA rule the Fan Gabbers should be playing major +
Or play 3 tournaments & request demotion…That’s the way I understand the rule to read! If I’m wrong please, correct me…..Yes at one time or another during the year all those folks played one tournament or the other….However that still leave Dave 1st base, Willie 2nd base, Cory LC, Kevin RC, Mark P, Jimmy LF & yourself catcher.
That still leaves 7 players that were on last year’s team.
Rules say you can only have 3 or play 3 tourneys and get reevaluated!
This did not happen in this case. Hence the reason folks are bitching!
May 2, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Hence,, winning the Tourney too. LOL
May 2, 2013
Big Mike
61 posts
It amazes me that this is even a question...there are quite a few teams that should be moved up or down. IMO...It's not surprising...especially in the M and M+...Yeagers shouold be a M+..Ruth's should be a M+...why don't they get moved up?...couple of reasons....1 is look who's teams they are...and there is a very limited number of M and M+ teams.....you have to keep them where they can still play...sometimes it doesn't seem fair...but I guess if it's too bad, we can look for another orginization to play thru....IMO
May 2, 2013
Allan55
80 posts
rightrj1,
Isn't the Robert's Construction team in the same boat as the Fangrabbers? They were reclassified without playing. How many are they returning? I would guess they are returning more than 3 players.
May 3, 2013
JamesLG
303 posts


Big Mike:

Ruth 60's did get moved up to M+

James
May 3, 2013
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Fangrabbers and their Manager, anit nothing but SANDBAGGAERS period! And SSUSA allowed this? Again I say... COME ON MAN! COME ON SSUSA! SSUSA,You really need to fix this! NOBODY RESPECTS YOU GUYS ANYMORE....
I'M REALLY STARTING TO DISLIKE THSES TOURNEYS, AND THE BULL CRAP THAT GOES ALONG WITH THEM. THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING STINKING THE AIR.
May 3, 2013
hitts
Men's 50
16 posts

I read through all of this. This is my take on the weekend. I played this weekend in some the games mentioned above & against FG. They hit their limit in HRs against us & had to back off due to not wanting walks for their over the fence shots. A couple landing across the parking lot (banging the ball). It is just puzzling how FG went 0-2 Friday. If you have an M+ team what kind of players are you going to replace placers that leave with? Duh!The same caliber(no brainer). So let's not talk about the replacement of players. Bottom line: They should have had to demonstrate they didn't belong in M+ before dropping down. FG's Friday’s effort had you guessing. Saturday answers to the question were verified. To be the bottom seed and roll like they did the rest of the tournament one can only can only think SB. Before it is stated no sour grapes or anything like that. They won it. Enjoy the win.
May 3, 2013
hitts
Men's 50
16 posts
Should have read: going to replace players that leave with.
May 3, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Talk to my buddy and the bracket games were pathetic by the Grabbers... they made zero effort to win according to my buddy... Like I said before what is the difference of a major team picking up 7 to 10 M+ players or a M+ team dropping down to Major level with 7 to 10 M+ players... SSUSA has to do a better job! Making it fair to the masses is what we all want and not tilting it for a select few!
May 3, 2013
cadogone
Men's 50
5 posts
Fangrabbers belong exactly where they are. If all teams would stop playing in these over expense tournament with less than 5 teams, you all would have nothig to talk about on this message board. I see why Fangrabbers decide to play Major, there are more team to play. Look at the 50 major +, they had 2 teams and play a 2 out 3, that took 3 days. It is all about the money, if it was not about the money than there should be one 50 divsion and winner take all but SSUSA would be losing money. All teams should not play until the world tournament when more than a few team will show up. (save a lot of $$) Managers need to get together and see who will be showing up for the next tournament before they pay they entree fee. (if enough teams are not enter than why should your team show up for a 3 or 4 team tournament. The way I see it from California, there is no reason to play again to the world in Las Vegas.

We would save more money if we called a team in Arizona and challenge them to a 3 out 5 on a Saturday in their city and it would cost less tha $525.00. We have enough teams in Orange County that we could play each other all summer and show up for the world.

let me hear you thoughts
May 6, 2013
neck10
498 posts
roberts played in indy this weekend great bunch of guys & are where they belong in major real good major team,would have trouble playing major plus.I think SSUSA got this one right
May 6, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
You might be right Cadogone, Fangrabbers want no part of MTC55.... they would eat their lunch! Especially with the attitude of dropping down..
May 7, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
Neck10,

How did they get it right? SSUSA has a set rules and each team is to abide by them and this team was not force too. I would guess this team had some success in the past and that is why it force to move up and now they have been allowed to move down and are having success again. To me this is like having your cake and eating it too. If they abide by all rules that every other team does and it allows them to move down great but if not then I call BS. What about all the other teams that were forced to move up? They just want to keep 7 or 8 of there players and move down to. They repped the rewards on the past now pay your dues.
May 7, 2013
neck10
498 posts
if your talking about roberts they have got old most of there guys are over 60 we played them twice and beat them teice good games then windy city beat us twice ,I think they got beat up on last year in major plus it doesntmatter how many guys you have coming nback unless its less than three because we had two one year & had to stay up its more about how you competed the yesr before!!!!!!!!
May 7, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Neck, he is talking about Fangrabbers! FYI
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