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Discussion: Major Plus

Posted Discussion
June 24, 2013
idahoreb
Men's 50
47 posts
Major Plus
Speaking as a member of a team that just got moved to Major Plus, the rules stink for that classification. Our team loves to play the game the way it was intended; hits, running the bases, fielding, and timely HRs. With the way the Major Plus is set up, you can rest assured that we will be watching fly balls sail out of the park, play four or five inning games, have no chance to play defense, and get beat because the Major Plus teams are all jackers and not complete players. You want to change and make this game a level playing field?
1. Eliminate the Major Plus classification
2. Put Major Plus with Major but put level 1 and level 2. When Level 1 plays level 2, level 2 gets 5 runs.
3. 5 runs per inning
4. 7 HRs per game
5. The biggest leveler of all. After 7 HRs, DEAD BALL OUTS.

Brings defense, hitting, baserunning back to the game and creates large team numbers for the Major division instead of the 2 or 3 for the Major Plus.

Come on SSUSA, be the leader in the change to save the game for EVERY team.
June 24, 2013
TOKE9
5 posts
Well said Reb!
I know exactly how you feel, our team got moved up this year and we have no one to play unless we fly West. we are from the Northeast and the tournament we just played in had only AAA teams in it. We give them 5 runs, an extra fielder and we can only hit 3 homeruns and then there outs.
its no fun for us or for our opponents .We have 6 guys on our team that are over 55 and they cant even go play for anybody else because they are labeled major plus. We are planning to go to Delaware next month which is about an 8 hour drive and I just heard that they will only have AAA teams there also. we have to play at least three tournaments in order to try and get reclassified and we might play 3 and not see a MAJOR team never mind a MAJOR PLUS team all year. I feel your pain. I hope something changes or our team will most likely fold. Good luck to you
June 24, 2013
KennethH
10 posts
You hit the nail on the head. SSUSA has no teams now in the Major+, so changing the rules may be better and if no teams show up because after 7 home runs are dead ball outs, SSUSA would be in the same situation with no teams. (RATED) supports your take an adjustments you point out

June 25, 2013
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
Not sure about combining Major and Major Plus. I believe the mistake SSUSA made was aloowing Home Runs over the limit to be walks in the Major division. Without the penalty of excess home runs being outs fewer teams that are loaded with power hitters will want to move up. Make Major Plus more appealing by making it the ONLY division where home runs over the limit are walks.
June 25, 2013
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
Guys,
SSUSA will NOT MAKE any changes to the Major + division because we don’t buy enough beer!!
The dollars are in the AAA & AA divisions, that’s why SSUSA doesn’t give a flying F@@k about the guys who really know how to play the game…….The Home Run Rule being a walk has NOT Made that BIG of a different (IMO)They have some failed formula, that combines games played & a run different format, never taking into consideration the teams that you’re playing against or the fact that maybe your team is just having a good tournament. I know teams that have played won & NEVER get moved up….NO team should be move during the season, IF you start in MAJOR’s & qualify for the TOC, you should be allowed to at least play the WORLDs & the Nationals in the division, that way you get a chance at the triple Crown for that division & that season, !!!! But of course SSUSA WON’T LISTEN!!!!!They’ll say come to the convention, and then we’ll talk about it!!! There also should be a convention at midyear when you’re moving team during the middle of the season!! Because your appeals process falls on deaf ears once George decides……based off his half ass formula! This is why there has been a low turnout for tournaments this year….Teams are getting really tired of the BS!!
June 25, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
I'm sure I'll stir up a hornets nest but what the heck.

I have to disagree (surprise) with idahoreb. Defense is more important at the Major+ level than any other level. Everything that is mis-hit and stays in the park HAS to be turned into an out or you give the other team a big inning. EVERY play that is hit to an infielder has to be made or it turns into a big inning and you're going to need a couple ESPN type plays. Otherwise you're right, you're going to get drilled.

IMO if you're going to impose tougher rules, impose them at the lower levels to force the sandbaggers to move up where they belong. For instance at AA - one homerun and an inning ending out. Yes, in some cases with the wind blowing out you'll see a few innings ending because of a home run but heck that's the way it goes. AAA - three homeruns and an inning ending out. Maybe change the Major level to five homeruns and one up - an out if you can't go one up.

Lower division teams seem to think that they have to match homeruns with a higher division. Do you know how many times I've had my butt wore out by a lower level team that base hit us to death? Or how many times I've played on a team that's wore out a "superior" team by just playing our game? Go out and score your 30 something runs a game and I'll bet that you'll be there in the end. Don't get intimidated because you're playing this team or that team. Who cares that a team has guys that played some big time softball back in the day or that they're in the Senior Softball Hall of Fame. That's how you lay your claim to fame, by beating them.

I think the associations should band together and move teams up at the first hint they are sandbagging regardless of when it is - even in the middle of a tournament. But it needs to be across all the associations because teams will say SSUSA moves us up so we're going to play SPA, ISSA, or Billy Bobs Corn Field league. I heard, and I can't remember where, that a team showed up to play in a lower division in a tournament and after spanking two team, was given the option of being moved to an upper level or having their entry fee refunded and go home. That takes some nads by the tournament director but (IMO) is exactly what needs to be done.

Go ahead and let it rip guys, the bait's out there.
June 25, 2013
rlspls1974
Men's 60
47 posts
Beasley: I like the way you think.
"That's how you lay your claim to fame, by beating them."
June 25, 2013
Mulewhipper
47 posts
Limit the courtesy runners allowed will also bring things back to a legit level.
June 25, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Limiting the courtesy runners could be varied for the different age groups with the higher the age the higher the number of courtesy runners. Maybe even restrict it by age group and level. It's another tough nut to crack.

I would agree that being able to use a courtesy runner for anyone on the team has turned into a strategic event. It seems like anytime a slow guy gets on base it's a no brainer that someone will replace him. If the rules allow it the teams are going to do it.

On the flip side, there are guys that are now enjoy playing the game they played when they were younger. There are some that this rule has helped because while they love the game, they just aren't physically able to get around the bases anymore. Without this rule they wouldn't be able to play. These guys aren't usually your outfielders or middle infielders but play positions where you're only expected to get a step or two.

I think this one will take some cyphering Jefrow.
June 25, 2013
Allan55
79 posts
idahoreb,

You mentioned SSUSA needs to make changes. Where have you been? SSUSA changed the M+ rules this year. They reduced the home runs from 12 to 9 and the runs per inning from 9 to 7.

You were moved up from major by dominating at that level. Now you are not dominating. Yes...you will be taking your lumps while adjusting. It's not fun being on the other side...I know first hand.

Unfortunately, teams are moved up by dominating and then complain when they are beaten in the next tournament or two, or if they can't win the World. Talk to the East Bay Oldies who have been playing at the M+ level for years. They played years before they were moved to major this year. They have my respect.

Beasley,

You are absolutely correct when you mention imposing tougher rules at the lower levels to force teams to move up. I understand there were a number of AAA level teams hitting more home runs than major teams.
June 25, 2013
TimMcElroy
23 posts
TOKE9

Your information about Dover is incorrect. 2 50 major plus and 2 50 major teams are among the 40 teams entered for that event.


Tim
June 26, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Original thread starters ideas...

1) eliminate plus....not a bad idea if you only bump World Champions
2) merge plus and major....five runs is not enough...maybe extra fielder also
3) five runs per inning...sounds fine depending on total homeruns
4) homeruns per game...sounds about right somewhere between 7-9 hrs .
5) dead ball outs for hrs....because of these stupid bats/balls this could very well lead to dead pitchers...and probably is why SSUSA went to dead ball walks.

I still Like the concept of only allowing ONLY six Plus Champions on a roster until they reach the next age group better then your changes....

If that 6 Plus Champions per Roster rule was Put into action....ever Championship team could end up splitting and making two plus teams...It also waters done the teams caliber a little which would make it a little closer talent wise to major ball.

In the end....it's looking like plus has very little value to SSUSA based on the numbers.

Our team has also been moved up......we might play two SSUSA events this season....

I hope by some miracle we win worlds so I could push for the six Champions rule...if it was only effecting our team....maybe they'd listen
June 26, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
I say just go with Major and Major rules..Get rid of the plus program! the cream will rise to the top! and there will be plenty of teams to knock off the top dogs!
June 26, 2013
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
382 posts
Swing - there are areas where M+ players are not available to Major teams
June 26, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
idahoreb - If you're team loves playing the game the way it was intended, why would you give 5 runs to a team that they did not earn? More teams are starting to take the 11 defensive players instead of the "fake runs" because at least you have to make a play and earn your equalizer instead of getting something for free. If a lower team does manage to beat a higher team this way they at least can say the earned it. If you "beat" someone 25-22 and really only scored 20, do you feel good about that victory?

SSUSA thought by making the AAA HR rule DBO's after 3 that teams would move up to Major on their own because of the "walk" rule after 6 HR's. The trouble is they didn't move enough teams up to Major+, leaving a lot of good Major teams left in the division that the AAA teams felt they can't compete with.
June 27, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
It's like putting tooth paste on your tooth brush.

Do you squeeze the tube at the top? If you do - where does the majority of the tooth paste go - down.

Do you squeeze the tube in the middle? If you do - some goes up and some goes down.

If you squeeze it at the bottom all the tooth paste goes up.

I just don't understand Tim's thinking. You seem hell bent on not making your team better but breaking up the good teams to bring the competition level to you. That being the case, I'm guessing you're going to the SPA Worlds because of the Impact Player rule. If you're not going then why not? It's pretty much what you want.

Here's another analogy for you - I'm General Motors and I'm having a difficult time making and selling cars because my cars just aren't as good as the foreign cars. So I push Congress to pass laws that say the foreign car makers have to make crappier cars so that I can compete with them. That's the good ole American way that I remember.

It took us years to find the right players to form what we feel is a good Major+ team. We are a self sponsored team and I can't begin to tell you how difficult it is to find quality players with good attitudes that don't mind footing their share of the entry fee, travel costs, lodging and meals.

If we are fortunate enough to win a World Tournament and have to get rid of everyone except 6 players we would go from a good Major+ team to a team that couldn't compete AT ALL. We wouldn't form two teams, instead we would disband and while some players may catch on with other Major+ teams, the majority would drop down to the Major level. Is that what you really want?

If Tim and his team don't like playing Major+ so much, let them drop - with this stipulation: they can only keep 6 players and of those 6 only 3 can be starters. Let Tim pick up a whole new team and rebuild the chemistry that his guys have built through the years.

Teams have complained that it's too expensive to play Major+ because you have to travel to play other Major+ teams. Well if more teams classified Major+ then there would be more teams in your area. IMO (yeah I know it smells like my butt) there are a couple Major teams here in Florida that could easily be bumped to Major+. We've played them in several tournaments and even though we have to give a player or runs, the games have been very competitive.

I don't mean to pick on Tim, it's just that I get tired of hearing that the best teams should break up. Major+ IS the cream of the crop, the best teams in the country. Don't think so - then do away with the equalizer rules and play them straight up by the Major+ rules. There may be some players in the lower divisions that are just as good or even better then the Major+ players but at least the guys currently playing Major+ have the guts to get out there and compete at the highest level.

I'm sure there'll be some guy giving me an earful the next time I make an error, don't make a play I should, or make an out. Oh well. Think it's easy - then put on your cleats, grab your bat and take my spot.
June 27, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
Beasley, do really think it is always about having "guts" to move up to major plus? As you state in your post, you recruit all over the state of Florida. I am sure that most other major plus teams also recruit all over their state. I do not have a problem with recruiting at all, but do when you claim it is a lack of "guts" as the reason for some teams/players not to move up.
June 27, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
You're right Cal50, guts was probably a bad choice of words. I don't mean to offend anyone.

A more appropriate word would be drive or desire.
June 27, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Idahored I'm a bit puzzled. I play 50 major plus with OKI and how you describe the way your team likes to play is pretty much how most major plus teams that I've played against play including us. True, we have bashers who can hit it a long ways but since it's only 5 (or 7--depending where you play) runs per inning if your team is adept at base hitting, baserunning, timely hr's and hitting gaps with the occasional home run shouldn't you be able to score the 5 or 7 runs most innings?
June 27, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Again... If you look at Plus softball you first have to decide if it's healthy or not?

I say it's not healthy when tourneys average a couple teams per event over the whole year.

I say it's not healthy when PlUS players are walking around with 10-50 PlMus rings/titles?

Has anyone ever heard of a player with that many AA AAA or MAJOR RING?

So now the question....

Do any of you think plus ball is healthy?

If you think plus is healthy then I will assume you never complain about wanting Major merged with Plus...

If you think Plus is healthy I will assume you never complain about a lack of teams.

You see....I have never been one to sit back and just accept a bad situation...and yes....I believe Plus is in a bad situation.

Personally....I don't Thrive any personal accolades in softball.....I had a couple/few years in my mid 20s where being great at softball meant something to me...after that...I put in the time to be competitive because I loved the guys I was playing with... Now in the waning years of my athletic abilities....I again am having fun playing with a great group of guys....

I personally get all the softball I need right here in NorCal so really (i have tirned down many invitations to travel for senior ball)....if Plus disappeared I wouldn't miss it....I think our team could get many weekends of softball fun playing at home...but...since my teammates enjoy going to a Work inals every year/and since we are a Plus team now.....I care about the Division we are in...

That is why I think Plus Champions should be handled like every other Division Champion....MOVED UP/BUMPED.... Maybe instead of just telling the 50 Us Champion they can only come back with six guys....you give them the option of bringing back more then 6 but having to play in the 40 Plus Worlds.... That way they could elect to show their "guts", or stick together because they are all good friends....;-)
June 27, 2013
Malo37
52 posts
Tim, Here we go again..... I am not in favor of anyone breaking up a team because they win. We also got bumped up to major + and now we'll compete as best we can in this division. We welcome the challenge and enjoy competing against the best. If we win we win, if we lose we lose. We'll play the best we can and let the chips fall. We all have a softball sickness and truthfully that's why we all still play after all of these years. My brothers I play with on AZ Elite are the other reason. We'll play anyone, anytime. If we win or lose we'll enjoy the battle.
Dave Quiroz
AZ Elite #37
June 27, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Dave, does your statement mean you like ssusa 50 Plus in its current "state"?

If you answer yes....you like the chance to play tourneys with zero to four other teams all season. I guess we can stop trying to discuss the Plus Division right now....

As I see it......other then ONE event (the world) there is not one ssusa 50 Plus tourney worth traveling to..why....for many reasons, but one of the biggest is....travel to play 1,2,3 or if your lucky four other Plus teams? Why? For some meaningless senior softball ring?

I see the Plus Division in serious jeopardy do to lack of teams...then again....I like Divisions with many teams instead of playing against the same 25-45 guys all year long....

Maybe you can take a loooooong look at the participation/attendance rate of ssusa Plus teams all season....maybe it will be enlightening....

Major teams regularly face the tuff choice of break up /change some players after getting bumped to Plus...why should the Plus Division be treated any differently...

Instead of bumped Major teams needing to change five or six players to compete in Plus/which most like happens to bumped Major teams that stay in Plus.....
I am saying make Plus Champions change half their team to stay in the same Division they have dominated to a point they would be kicked out of any other Division of ssusa....

It's really simple....something has to change or Plus will soon be close to/if not...a one tourney a year (World) Division.
June 27, 2013
Mulewhipper
47 posts
I can't speak for the others, but I don't play for "The Ring", I play for the great competition and playing with friends and being the best team we possibly can. Just the fact that I can still go out there and play at a decent level is good enough for me.
Like Malo says, win or lose...I always enjoy the battle.
It's not the destination, it's the journey that means so much to me.

If that means playing the same teams over and over again, then so be it.

Even in the Major division, there may be more teams, but it's usually the same faces you see at these events. And the same team you played earlier in the year, isn't always the same team next time.

IMHO
June 27, 2013
TOKE9
5 posts
Sorry Tim I have been misinformed. That's great theft there are major and major plus teams going. The only way to find out if we belong in the plus division is to play those teams.

Thanks for the info
June 27, 2013
the wood
1071 posts
Beasley,
I like the way that think and express yourself (not that you need my approval). I particularly like the 'toothpaste tube' analogy.
You used the word 'guts' as it relates to major teams moving up to M+ or not. While it may not be politically correct in today's social climate, I believe that it's a fair word because there are many teams that find more ways to move down than to compete. Not all M teams can compete at the M+ level but plenty could.
Regardless if you use 'guts' or some other word, the concept is the same.
As a 65 M+ team we experience all of the same problems as you (and Malo) have mentioned plus a couple more. Like you, it's the thrill of playing the best and playing with great people that keeps us going.
BW
June 27, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Well, for one thing... OMG I agree with Tim on the 50 plus program being sort of broke... someone listed 4 Tourneys that had little to no participation from the 50+ teams.

So,that being said, I still don't agree with breaking up teams!

I would like to have the chance to play more than the same 4 to 5 teams in the 50 plus arena!

The only way you fix that is you combine the two division of Major and Major plus, or you move up 40 or the best Major teams throughout the country and make it a Legit program with many teams to play along with the 12 teams that are already there... IMO!
June 27, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
I think Major+ is just fine.

It's the lower divisions that are broke because too many teams are allowed to play down which disrupts the true skill level within that division.

If you broke the talent levels up into 4 groups with 1 being the least skill level and 4 being the best skill level where would teams/players fall. Go through your lineup and rate your players. If you say that Jimmy is one of the best in the game then he belongs at the highest level.

Sometimes individual players aren't necessarily the best but when you put a group of them on the field they come together and bring out the very best in one another. The team is considered one of the best in the game and therefore should be playing at the highest level.

I mean, playing or being bumped to Major+ should be taken as an achievement not a punishment. A team was moved there because the sanctioning body felt your team was one of the best in the nation. But that doesn't seem to be the case for teams when they receive this honor.

Do I wish there were more teams - sure. But until someone makes the Major teams move up they're going to sit down there and play where they're allowed to play. This is the same problem that has gone on for years in younger softball and guess what - those same guys are getting older and pulling the same stuff in senior softball.

The question has been asked - why aren't the Major+ Champions bumped like the lower divisions? Answer - because there isn't anywhere to bump them to within the same age group. Having them play guys 10 years younger isn't the answer. Neither is breaking up a team because other teams haven't learned how to beat them.

But if Tim wants me to show my "guts" by getting on the field with them then lets go. Heck, bring on Resmondo, Dirty, AJD or any of the other big teams. What do we have to loose. It's a game, it's competition, it's the feeling of hitting a screamer only to have someone take it away from you. The feeling of playing a team that's going to make you put all your years of softball experience together in order to beat them.

I really need to remember some of this stuff for our next team meeting. My bloods pumping and I'm looking for my glove. Put me in coach, I'm ready to play.....
June 27, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Again....no guts in playing senior softba...it's just for fun...unless of coarse your a pitcher....

If you guys can come up with a better idea to grow the numbers in the dying Plus program id love to hear them.
June 28, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Tim, combine major and major plus in events where it's necessary. They can play the major home run rule. Get rid of the spotting 5 runs or 11th fielder, to me thats plain idiotic. There are major teams that could do very well in major plus. Jmho
June 28, 2013
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
Most players who can really play the game want to play against the best players in the Country!!!
Just NOT in a 2-3-4 team tournament!
The major + division is where you’re supposed to find those players. But for anyone 50 + there’s only one tournament a year that really matters, (SSUSA’s Vegas World) (or maybe 2 SPA world) where most of these players get together & compete……All the other tournaments during the year for major+, (IMO are just tune-ups for these 2 …That’s why I’m not a Fan of moving teams up during the season!!! If a new major team is formed, & they beat up on the existing major teams, let it be, then the next year give the guys on that team an option to move up to Major + or Disband!! I also think at the WORLDS the TOP 5 teams have to move up to the next division, if this was done 5 or 6 years ago, everyone would have plenty of teams to play against in all divisions & the teams that disband could go & form other teams & stay in the division of their liking. Just a thought!
June 28, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
@ Rightrj

I agree with you about the Vegas and Dalton tournaments. I think you could also throw in the ISSA World and maybe the Huntsmen Games. But I wouldn't limit it to just the Major+ division. SSUSA tabs almost all their tournaments as Nationals (east coast) and World (west coast) but are they really National/World tournaments? They're pretty much just another tournament that gives you a place to play in turning up for one of the true World Tournaments.

By the way, why are tournaments west of the Mississippi classified as World Tournaments and the ones east of the Mississippi National Tournaments. It almost gives us east coast guys an inferiority complex knowing that we're only playing in a "National" tournament. Sorry SSUSA staff, I just had to throw that one out there.

Sorry, I don't want to hijack the thread.

The thing is regardless of the plan chosen (unless you merge Major and Major+) it's going to take a couple years before we actually seen an impact.
June 28, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
The state of 50 Major+? The SW Championship had 2 teams (best of three). The NW Championship had 1 team (us) and we played exhibition. We did appreciate the opportunity to play ... the brass could have just told us sorry, there are no teams for you to play, but just wanted to point out what most are saying is that there are a lot of problems in the Major+ division.
June 28, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
So now that many have agreed Plus has problems with lack of teams..

How do you grow the Division?

To answer that you first have to ask teams that are bumped that have not stayed in Plus.

An example of this would be the just reclassed down East Bay Oldies.

The oldies had a record of 2- 23 over their last 25 plus games (I was told this by one of their players).

Many of their loses were close games....but they were still losses.

Now.....lets say ssusa did restrict no more then six Plus Champions per roster....would East Bay have won some more games? I answer yes...

Would those extra wins have kept them as a Plus team? I answer...probably.

So...that's just the latest example

I'm all ears if any of you have a better way to make Plus appealing....but...until then....I will continue to believe the top of Plus needs to be turned over regularly to be successful...just like Major, AAA, AA are.

And that means making sure any group of players don't dominate the Plus Division more then once in their five year age group.

If ssusa really did implement the only six Champions per roster rule we all would really see who the guys are that want to compete...instead of show up almost guaranteed to be playing late Sunday....

June 28, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
Major plus teams, please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't most major plus teams primarily recruited teams? Recruit from pretty big areas, in many cases throughout the state and often from many different states to make up a team? I am sure there are some teams as thewood puts it that don't have the guts to play up, but in my opinion think that most players do not because they prefer to play with local friends. Lack of "guts" has little if anything to do with it for most.

I do have a suggestion that would strengthen the major and major plus division. Keep the major rules as they are allowing 4 major plus players and allow people to play both major and major plus. That would create 2 to 3 more major plus teams in the midwest. The downside of this for SSUSA would be the scheduling. Would sure make for a bigger national tournament as well.
June 28, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Did the East Bay Oldies win all their games when they first started playing - probably not.

Did they stick together and play well enough to be considered one of the better teams - it appears so otherwise they wouldn't have gotten bumped.

So IMO the latest example doesn't carry any weight.

June 28, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
@Cal50

I don't know if you can call what we do recruiting. We look for talented players within our area that we feel will get along are representative of the rest of the team. We ask them to play, sometimes more than once, and explain things a thoroughly as we can. I guess you can classify that as recruiting even though the only thing we're able to offer them is the opportunity to play on what we think is a good team.

We've been turned down more than once with the excuse that they didn't want to go play 2 or 3 teams.

I don't think there's an easy solution to this otherwise something would have been done by now. But I sure am glad that I'm not on the SSUSA staff or any other association staff and have to listen to the whining.
June 28, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
One last thing while I'm thinking about it. I heard there's only a hand full of teams in the 50+ Major+ in Dalton.

Where the heck are all these teams that want restrictions?

No team can have more than 6 impact players so you'd think the teams would have been beating the doors down trying to get into the tourney. Isn't this exactly what they've been asking for?

I guess this would be the latest example of how imposing restrictions at the Major+ level isn't the answer either.
June 28, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
Beasley, I did not mean that recruiting was bad in any way at all. I am all for having the best teams compete.
June 28, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Hey Cal,

I didn't take it as a bad thing.

I was just trying to clarify before the NCAA imposed sanctions on us. It's bad enough my Hurricanes can't get a straight answer after 3+ years of investigation.

June 28, 2013
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
Beasley,
We don’t play a lot of SPA or ISSSA here on the west coast! There’s only 1 Major + team here, however that has changed this month since our promotion to the + division! SSUSA and our Southern Cal Senior association are what we have here in Southern Cali. There’s only 3- 50 major teams that we compete against on a regular bases & 1 + team or 2 if AZ Elite comes to town!…After playing in 3 SSUSA 50 Major events, winning 2 of the 3 we got promoted...Now our players LOVE to play and don’t mind competing in the Major + division…..But with so few teams there, we have decided to play in the 40 Major’s division where we will have more teams to play verses the 6-8 team Major + tourney this coming Vegas! Our team is made up from guys who played 50 Majors the last few years on different teams......The 40’s major division is just as competitive as the 50”s major + Division, with way more teams…. Those are the two divisions to combine……Eliamate the 50 Majors + division & make the 50 major team go play 40 majors, when promoted or create a 45 Major division & play there……I know, I’ll get a lot of BS from the 40’s guys, but really the level of competition is about the same! This will be our 1st SPA world, looking forward to the Southern & East Coast Competition…. Beasley will you be in Dalton?
June 28, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Rightrj, are you sure 50 + can play 40 major? If its allowed....depending on the number of teams Id suggest it to our team for consideration. Heck....I think it would be the final point in us deciding to play the calcup....40s play on the weekend.
June 28, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
I meant western nationals. Not calcup....but heck....we would have played that one also
June 28, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1008 posts
Technically, 50-Major+ and 40-Major both carry a team Rating Index of 9 in our methodology ... However, our recent observation is that the development and growth of the talent pool in the 40-Major's may make that seemingly equivalent rating artificial and not a true measure of competitive balance ...

Last year, in the Jim Sherman Memorial Northwest Championships in Lacey, WA, the NW Legends played in the 40-Major bracket and were undefeated for the weekend in winning the title ... Last week in Portland at this year's event, more than one of the NW Legends observed, after watching the 40-Majors play, that they were glad they weren't doing it again this time around ... Maybe Jawood or one of the other NW Legends might jump in and speak to this issue on a first hand basis ...

SSUSA would have no objection to a 50-Major+ wanting to play in that 40-Major group, just so long as it's an informed decision going in ...

June 28, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Staff...this 40 majors is great news...

one of big deciding factors in not going to Reno or the calcup and possible the western worlds was the three day event with few teams....

40 major is played on weekends I think?????

And...I think it's better attended....maybe if there are only one or two 50+ teams at the western you could just put the 50+ with the 40 majors???

Is this possible?
June 28, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
@Rightrj

Yes, we're planning on being in Dalton this year. We've had a rough year with some injuries but we're going to pull things together and give it a shot.

We don't have much of a 40+ program here in Florida. At least from what I've been able to find anyway. I guess I'll have to look a bit harder. Thank you for the info.
June 29, 2013
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
@Beasley, I understand the injury reports….I’m playing for Rated Athletics 50 major’s #22 in Dalton
Look me up & I’ll buy you a beer or two…..@Tim, yes I think the 40 division is the answer if you looking at playing a few more teams then they have in 50 +….…I also like the 2 day tourneys that the 40 division play!!!!! Staff you say NW Legends won the 1st 40 they play in but wouldn’t do it again! It would be nice to hear their displeasure of the division! We may just come to the Western nationals as a 50+, but that depends on who showing up……If MTC, AZ Elite, NW Legends,& Nazzerino show up we may enter the western nationals n…….What 50 + teams are going to the WESTERN NATIONAL? As it stands now, if you look at all the 50 + teams in the nation, I can only count about 10, the 5 that I mention above, plus OKI, KC Barons, Summerville & Roberts, I know Team 1 Sports is active but don’t think their coming to the West Coast for Vegas……so if everyone shows up for Vegas there should be a 10-12 team bracket in the 50’s major + division! That’s makes a nice competitive tournament!
June 29, 2013
The real deal
Men's 60
62 posts
One of the reasons why lower rated teams prefer not to play against Major Plus is player (pitcher) safety. The big hitters are forced to keep the ball in the park when they play lower division rules, and mistakes happen.

Put a screen in front of the pitcher (vs. Major Plus), and there would be less objection.
June 29, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
The rating index is based on 5 year increments, so really a 50 Major+ team is not the same as a 40 Major team. If there was a 45+ division, then that would be different. IMO, a 50 Major+ team has a correct index of 9, but a 40 Major team should be rated a 10 and a 40 Major+ team an 11.

The 40+ division continues to grow and is much better this year and our team (NW Legends) is getting closer to the move to 55+. The 40+ teams are not picking up players that are in their upper 40's, but ones that are just turning 40 and still playing conference ball. With slightly over half of our team turning 55 and beyond, that's quite an age difference. We have no problem playing against the 40's for a few games here and there but have decided our days of playing against the youngsters consistantly is coming to an end. That's our story, but a team with a "young" 50 group should take the challenge of playing better teams and there are definitely some in the 40 Major division. It's helped us in the past.

Rightrj, your enthusiasm is great! We have not played in the Western Nationals for a few years because of the lack of Major+ teams (as in none). We are committed to play in another associations event in Manteca in August that MTC, EBO and Nazzareno have been attending for quite some time. Sommerville has disbanded.

The real deal, the Major HR rule is still walks after the limit so Major+ hitters are not too concerned about keeping the ball in the park. Against AAA, that is another issue.
June 29, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
I was told NorCal just had a NSA 40s with 16 teams...don't know how many are major or how many are going to western but it's worth looking into.

Again....wish we knew this before....does the same thing work with 55Plus and 40 major?
June 29, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Tim, over a dozen this month for NSA n various cities. most 1 day events.
Checkout playnsa,com
June 30, 2013
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
It would really be a good idea to keep in contact with the other managers of the Major + division. That way we can call one another & ask the question “Is your team playing in XYZ tournament” Cool we’ll be there also…The Manteca tournament for the Nor Cal Senior Championships is one for an example!!!
Can my Southern Cal Rated Athletics team play in this one? I know it’s a nice tournament; I’ve played in it a couple of years back…. @ Jawood I hear you loud & clear on the age different from 40’s to 55’s! Isn’t it funny how when we were in our 40’s our talent level for playing the game was SO MUCH HIGHER? That’s why we can compete against them with a 10-15 year age different……… You are correct about the Index rating or as I like to call it “that BS team disruption formula” Thank you for telling us your concerns with playing against the 40’s, our team only has 3- 55 players on the roster, the rest just turned 50 this year or last! So we will give it a go & see if we can’t PISS off some of those younger’s by beating up on them….lol
June 30, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
I agree that the 50+ coaches should all share info. Heck...if we did share info...all six of us in the western usa could get together and hire a director to run some tourneys for us. That would be better then the choices being given to us right now.

As for playing 40s...NSA allows 50 teams an extra fielder when we play teams with 40 year old...it seems to keep the games competitive.

On the Manteca NCSSA hall of fame event...they are allowing out of the area teams to play in an open division.... So far there will be MTC 55 plus, MTC 50 Plus, GSC 50 plus, EBO reclassed to 50 major, Warriors 50 major (old Barron's), Nazarino legends are considering it also...
June 30, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Tim,
NSA events are usually 1 day. But not all. Most of those in their sched are.

Ask Reedy about the open playing. He runs that one and I believe they did it last year.
That BLD is one of the best for the year in NCSSA. Unless the kids scheduled interferes and they cut times or something else to get out of there on time. That has happened more than once.
June 30, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
TIM, Also you need to read the event info too, many are only a 3GG. Especially if the younger guys are involved.
June 30, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
The NW Legends are definitely going to the HOF event in Manteca. Sounds like most of the west coast teams will be there!
June 30, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Jawood,
That one usually fills up. Reedy usually does a good job there.
Fields get HOT this time of the year and this week it's been in the 100's.
June 30, 2013
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Suggestion- 3 divisions per age group-AA, AAA, Major.
AA- no homers,dead ball inning ending out
AAA- no homers, dead ball out
Major-7 homers,one up walks,6 runs per inning ( the run per inning rule should keep most games close)

The defending Major World champs play the following year (that year only)in all tournaments as a "Plus" team giving an equalizer (either runs or fielder)to all major teams that want it until they get to the world. In the world the only equalizer allowed would be an extra fielder.

These suggestions could be tweaked but you get the idea. The biggest culprit in the current system is the home run rule in the lower divisions ( current major and AAA). That is where the tube of toothpaste needs to be squeezed.


Mango
June 30, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
There are many concepts for equalizes....

Another to consider...lower ranked teams can chose to be visitors and use an extra fielder as long they are tied or ahead in scoring.
June 30, 2013
Marv19
Men's 60
424 posts
Mango, You know I have a lot of respect for you but....
I cant think of a better way to send Senior Softballers to the golf courses than this suggestion. Where do you recruit your future BLASTERS? Scout the AAs and AAAs for the guys that hit the most outs? :O)

How about this if you want more M+ teams. A team is made up of only 4 payers. Hit off a tee. Anything hit inside the fence is an out. The four outfielders are now called shaggers. That way you can hit home runs till your arms fall off. At the end of the hour the team with the most home runs wins ... yea!

All kidding aside and for what its worth. Last Sunday I watched one of the best M+ games in a very long time. It was AZ Elite and Nazzarino Electric at the SCSSA Wine Country Invitational. The HR rule was 5 HR and an out. 5 runs per plus the open. The teams actually had to play with a strategy. The infielders made major league plays and the game was close in the end. And most games went 6 or 7 innings. Those kinds of games are truly how slow pitch softball should be played. Not everyone trying to hit 500 foot shots that are walks and move the runners up one base at a time.

But that's just me

June 30, 2013
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
NSA Manteca (NorCal) Costs too much! NSA Dallas (DFW) Costs too much! NSA Las Vegas is TBA, but Affordable for AZ Elite! No NSA Senior Ball in Arizona, although there are Specialty Tournaments (Hispanic, Native American, Black American). AZ Elite has too many Tokens, so we can't Play in our own State (LOL) ! ! !

There is no need for a 50/55 Major Plus Team to Breakup, as Timmy would suggest. Yet AZ Elite can't even Play SSUSA 50's in Arizona anymore, and aren't even aloud to Play ASA Regular Softball because we are supposedly Better than the majority of Young Kids Playing D & E (LOL) ! ! !

We won't Fool ourselves thinking we can Compete with True 40M+ Teams, but we're Not Opposed to Playing them every now-n-then. A 10 year gap is too much as far as True Senior Softball Standards are . . .


Regards,
Jeff White #7
AZ Elite 50M+
June 30, 2013
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Tim & I had discussions previously regarding West Coast Major Plus Team Schedules. Unfortunately there's such a Huge Mileage Gap in Tournament Locations that AZ Elite suffers the most. We are Limited to Dwindling Winter World, Spring World, and the Southwest Tournaments in SSUSA! Other than that, at least Marv allows us to Play in his SCSSA Tournaments. Again, AZ SSUSA has basically shut us out of Playing in the 50's, and there isn't even any Promotion for 40+ Teams!? It's Disheartening for lack of better words ! ! !


Regards,
Jeff White #7
AZ Elite 50M+
June 30, 2013
TAT22
12 posts
I think that SSUSA should mirror the divisions like baseball does, AA, AAA, Major. Even in regular associations i.e. U-trip, ASA, NSA no Major+. I also think that a majority of the Major teams could compete with the plus teams, I would like to see the divisions combined in every tournament going forth, except Worlds in Vegas this year where there seems to be enough plus teams, then just ELIMINATE the plus all together next year and you will have plenty of teams in each division for ALL your tourneys.
June 30, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
I spoke to SSUSA on friday about Major Plus and was told they are looking and asking for suggestion. We the players and coaches need to put together some plan together that is supported by the majority of us and submit it to them. I agree with the posts above regarding Major Plus coaches contacting each other and discuss their options or wants or needs that they are looking for and then just compile it into
a plan and present it to SSUSA. SSUSA did say that in the past we have asked for to many changes, so please keep it plan and simple.

Here is a start, what I am hearing for Tim,

1) 2 day tournaments
2) Limit Major Plus champion teams to 6 returning players
3) Reduce entry fee (not happening)

I am not saying I agree with these 3 options just listing them out. Now please just add some suggestions, such HR limit, run limit and DBO or walks. You Major Plus team coaches exchange email addresses if you don't interact with the other coaches then shut and play because you chose not apply input to the solution. We need a solution and we need it now.
June 30, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
Probably a little harsh when saying shut up and play. I should have said if you don't want to ge involved to help find a solution then don't complain. Each team should have a say so in what they would to see changed and to voice their own opinion. Sorry guys
June 30, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Sad, one major team at cal cup! That's. What's broke! All plus teams should talk with each other and make plans to show up to the few big ones! I would find it disenchanting if i had to play with just a handful of teams! Now we have two plus major teams in our major bracket at cal cup! Sure all the major teams appreciate this! ;-)
June 30, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
You really only have one GSC, MTC55 and Cal Energy are 55 Major Plus teams.

June 30, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
True, but mtc 55 can compete against anyone at any level
June 30, 2013
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
When you reach the top it seems the only choice is to disband. A 70 team in my area got upgraded to M+ and just got trashed. Result, the team disbanded.

Probably some guys are out of Senior Softball now. May be that the person that said break up the M+ teams and scatter the players that want to continue is the only answer.

I know that playing against the best of the best when they are on the same team is a no win situtation for most all teams. I have been there. When it is in pool play it is ok, however in tournament play it is not fun.

Montgomery Motors out of Maryland was such a team. May have been the best I ever played against. They had to hit the ball in the ground to keep it in the park.

The answer is not simple.

C
June 30, 2013
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
382 posts
Of all the suggestions put forward, I would align most with Tim's.
June 30, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
I agree that the 50+ coaches should all share info.

Heck...if we did share info...all six of us in the western usa could get together and hire a director to run some tourneys for us. That would be better then the choices being given to us right now.

As for playing 40s...NSA allows 50 teams an extra fielder when we play teams with 40 year old...it seems to keep the games competitive.

On the Manteca NCSSA hall of fame event...they are allowing out of the area teams to play in an open division.... So far there will be MTC 55 plus, MTC 50 Plus, GSC 50 plus, EBO reclassed to 50 major, Warriors 50 major (old Barron's), Nazarino legends are considering it also...

Should Contact John Reedy NCSSA
June 30, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
I guess it's the time of year for this discussion. If Major+ was eliminated and the current Major rules of 6 HR's (then walks) and 5 runs per inning was used, the Major division would thrive. A possible tweak would be that some top Major(Major+ currently) teams would give 11 defensive players to help equalize. The HR rule itself and only 5 runs an inning would keep the games close, as Mango said. I'm sure there are some that say the Major classification is already thriving and there is no need for the Major+ teams to join, but even their numbers are low in most tournaments, except for the World's.

In this scenerio, some lower Major teams would be moved down to AAA, but their HR rule would need to bump up to 6, then outs. Then you would still have the AA division with a very limited number of HR's.

JDub, I think you guys finish second in the "west coast milage gap" contest to us.
June 30, 2013
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
The issues with breaking up the teams, means the guys leaving will have to find other teams to play on or try to recruit & run their own team…Which if anyone has tried to run a team and deal with 12-20 different type of guys is a JOB in its self! Then your team has a good season the 1st year & have to disband again? NOT! I think breaking up a team is not the answer!! Most guys play on teams from their area, regular less of their team classification…As someone has stated here, not all of the major + teams are sponsored.. ..As too recruit & fly guys to theses tournaments...
July 1, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
If ssusa went to Champion Plus teams only being allowed to return with six Champion players till they reach the next age group...I think?

Ssusa should also allow one plus player on AAA teams...some Plus players have nowhere to play..and lets be honest....one Plus player should be easy to play around....

I think this one Plus player in AAA should already be implemented.
July 1, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
Regarding the HOF Tournament in Manteca, how would they handle it if 7 or more teams did sign for the group 1 division?
I guess it woould be first come first served for the first 6 teams?
July 1, 2013
Malo37
52 posts
Hi guys,
I wanted to point out a few things....

1. AZ Elite has 5 - 55 yrs old guys playing on our team, most importantly we're all really good friends regardless of age, and many of us have played together for many years, even when we were younger. We want to stay together and keep playing. I'll never agree with breaking up teams.
2. Marv talked about a great game between AZ Elite and Nazzareno Electric, 2 good teams, the only thing missing from that was the wind was blowing in really hard so not many HR's were hit. Nazzareno won a good game and congratulations to them are due!
3. Nazarreno is a great team as are the other Major + teams. We look forward to playing against them at every opportunity.
4. BUT...in ours and NW Legends case it's very hard and expensive to travel and be able to play against these great teams. I wish we could figure that out short of having a huge cash windfall come our way.
in the spirit of sharing coaches info here is mine for AZ Elite;
Arizona Elite
David Quiroz
davidquiroz37@gmail.com
cell - 602-885-7550

Have a great day everyone.
Dave

July 1, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Malo37,
My experience with the groupings is that the likely hood of 6 would be one bracket and the 7th entered into another with some sort of advantage given to the other teams. You should know that by what is already going on in every other assn.
NCSSA groups teams differently to begin with and do a pretty good job at it now. It's the outside grouping teams that get in that sway it some. Some is who you know who you... as with the all the others imo.
Have a great and safe 4th.
July 1, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Mango hope all is well with you and yours.
I agree with your 3 divisions but I dissent on the next to last paragraph.
Using your old team as an example, the Mavericks pretty much dominated 50+ major plus from when I started playing 50's up until the team broke apart. I can't speak for any teammates but in no way, shape or form would I ever want to take 5 runs or an 11th fielder because your team won the worlds the previous year. The other teams should work harder, recruit new/strong players--strive to win. Getting a handicap defeats the spirit of the game and competing, in my humble opinion of course.
July 1, 2013
JamesLG
295 posts

Teams should not have to break up or drop players just because they were the best in M+. You should not be punished just because you won it all. The only M+ team we have in Washington is the Legends so where do they go if they are required to drop a few of their players? They worked hard for success so breaking them up is not the solution.

Thanks:

James

July 1, 2013
rightrj1
Men's 55
180 posts
Rated athletics would like to play in the mate at tournament, can someone please provide me a contact #? Or have someone contact me...thxs
July 1, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
rightrij1 what is your emsil address
July 1, 2013
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
Lee Lee@ rightrj1@sbcglobal.net
July 1, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
Sent you the flyer, hope you make up here.
July 2, 2013
idahoreb
Men's 50
47 posts
Since I started this thread it has been very informative. However, all the discussion has not even come close to solving the Major+ issue. Our team has not, nor will not, ever shy away from playing anyone and be very competitive. The reason for the post was very selfish in that I want to play with the guys I've played with for the last 10 years, play the game as it was intended, relying on hitting, defense, timely HR's and not having to play 4 or 5 inning games while the other team hits 20 HR's. Again my suggests for NEXT year.

1. Combine Major and Major+ teams with the level 1 and level 2 configuration for leveling.

2. Five runs per inning

3. 7 HRs per game

4. Dead Ball Outs (DBO) on HRs over 7.

You will see an expansion of the Major Division and will be a level playing field for all teams involved. Any team can then win any tournament.
July 2, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Sorry...Idaho...almost all your stuff is nothing new...

Your number 1..... Is just remaining Plus and Major as levels 1 and 2.... Fails as a new suggestion.

Your number 1....five runs per inning....again is nothing new for the Major division...it also fails as a new suggestion

Your number 3...,7 hrs per inning....new?

Your number 4..... Dead ball outs...new/again.....For Plus but.....should be renamed dead pitchers homerun limit rule.....as long as these stupid bats are legal...

.... Maybe....once the home runs are gone they should be dead ball walks or foul balls (asa tried this years ago)...

Or...how about this one........hit with an aluminum bat...anything over the limit are home runs...now that's a new idea that would be fun.....
July 2, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Maybe even add in....

Any home run hit during to game with aluminum doesn't count towards the home run total...

And....any aluminum bat being used in the game can be used by both teams..

this would reduce the chance of altered aluminum showing up...

Now that would be fun to play....

Probably doesn't make much since in the older age groups of seniors but it sure would be fun for most of the 50 ish guys.
July 2, 2013
idahoreb
Men's 50
47 posts
Tim Didn't say my stuff was new. Look at the very first thread. How many pitchers get seriously hurt in the AA or AAA with the bats and limited HR's? Very few. If you want to help the pitcher, make the mat six inches deeper and 2 inches wider on each side. Now a pitcher has some help in keeping the ball out of the middle. Most teams and players do not hit the middle if they have any integrity for the game and the pitcher.
July 2, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
I am with you on making the mat MUCH larger....

I'd also enforce the batters box and call anyone out that stands beyond the box.

I'd vote for softball balls.

I'd also vote to go back to aluminum.

I'd also vote to go to a 1-1 count.

If its not all aluminum I'd support every hr hit with aluminum does not count towards home run totals...this might get some of these stupid bats out of the power hitters hands.

As far as hiting middle...I do not buy into the middle off limits stuff, middle is the biggest hole on the field and should be used whenever someone wants as far as I am concerned...matter of fact...middle is where I have hit most of my playing days...

now aiming at the pitcher is another story.

I pitched in a game tonight and had at least six balls hit up the middle (I caught one)...one of the hitter said sorry pitch and when he got to first, I told him no apology was necessary...middle is part of the game.

Any pitcher that thinks middle is off limits should not be on the mound....

When I pitch I wear a helmet, have shin guards on most of the time and chest protector occasionally when I think I need it....

We also most of the time play a five man infield....to help close the biggest hole on the field.

None of this will grow the numbers in Plus though....which is the biggest need at this time.
July 3, 2013
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Tim,

Get it right, it's STOOOPID BATS ! ! !

Larger Mat

1-1 Count

7 or 9 HR's, 1 Up, anything else is an Out

No Dismantling of Teams, as it's an Option & Honor to Play at the Highest Level. I believe we can Combine 50M/50M+, but the Equalizer Rules need to be Tweaked (with Team Manager Approvals). I don't believe 50M+ Teams should ever be Excluded from 50M Play simply because they are "Too Good" a-la Arizona in state Tournaments. That is Total Bu!!$#!T IMHO, and any 50M Team that Whines that much should just Fold up Tent, and Throw in the Towel (IMHO) ! ! !


Regards,
Jeff White #7
AZ Elite 50M+
July 3, 2013
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
I have listened to this topic of combining Major and Major Plus for the past 12 years. I feel for the Major Plus teams going to tournaments and the time/costs involved, and playing a best 2 out of 3. Probably a third of the Major teams could compete with the Major Plus teams. Looking at this from a business standpoint, why would you chance losing teams by combining these 2 divisions, in particular, some Major teams to satisfy the few, which exemplifies the Major Plus teams. Yes, Major Plus teams represent the few in SSUSA softball. Not that the few are any less important than the majority, but it is just the fact. If you took a third of the Major teams and put them in with the Major Plus teams, then what do you do with the other Major teams? Oh yes, put them with the AAA teams, so they can beat them up. Again, from a business standpoint, that would probably not go well. If you check how many teams are Major versus Major Plus, you would see this business concept in place. With the 50/55 divisions, 81% of the teams are Major(178 Major and 42 Major Plus). With the 60/65 divisions, 70% of the teams are Major(85 Major and 36 Major Plus). At the 70 division, 59% of the teams are Major(39 Major and 16 Major Plus). That is pretty much the business standpoint.

As I stated previously, I have listened to this topic for many years. It does not fall on deaf ears, just not that attractive to many teams that are not Major Plus teams or the pocket book for someone to run these tournaments. Many good suggestions by all, but these have been made in the past. When I hear that we just need to tweak the rules a little bit, just will not sit well with the majority. I believe the Major Plus teams need to give a lot a bit, if they have hopes of combining Major and Major Plus and happening in our lifetime. In reality, in the smaller tournaments, there are not that many Major teams to play either. OK, what tweaks do we make? In my opinion, the big reason is the home run rule. Honestly, half of the top Major teams do not need 5 runs or an eleventh player, to compete at the Major Plus level. What is the corect number of home runs, 9, 7, 5, or what? My 60 Major team is averaging 3-5 home runs per 5 games, which is only one per game or less. Heck, we only hit 2 home runs in our last tournament in 5 games. I am sure that other Major teams are in the same situation. There are always exceptions. I will tell you now, if you ever expect to combine these 2 divisions, you need to tweak this rule a lot. My suggestion would be 3 home runs and after the 3rd home run, you could only hit a home run when the situation becomes a one up situation, otherwise, it would be an out. Major Plus teams do not like this type of limit, and that is why we are still talking about this after 12 years.

One other issue is the paying for players. Well, I do not care. If you have a sponsor that pays for your expenses and/or pays for a player to play on your team, then so be it. You cannot control that situation, other than to get a sponsor to do the same for your team. I have played against teams that are sponsored and played with teams that are sponsored. I prefer to play with friends and do the best that we can and have a great time. A good sponsor is a good thing for the pocket, but not necessarily the only important thing in this world.

Enjoy the time you have left on this Earth to play the game that you all love to play. Unfortunately, in the next 20 years, 40% of us will not be here to play this game, so live it now and enjoy. Also, in the next 20 years, no one is going to care what any of these issues were or remember.

I know many will not agree with me, and that is OK. These are just my opinions and suggestions. Stay healthy and see you all out on the fields.

Andy Smith,
60 Major/55 Major
July 3, 2013
the wood
1071 posts
'Looking at this from a business standpoint, why would you chance losing teams by combining these 2 divisions, in particular, some Major teams to satisfy the few, which exemplifies the Major Plus teams.' Duke - July 3.

Bingo!

Until players really understand this they'll continue to offer suggestions/opinions on this matter. While I agree with many things stated on this subject matter, there will be no changes.
Senior softball is something that most of us totally enjoy doing but it is a business for the senior associations, whether they're structured as 'for profit' or not. The same goes for the bat makers, shoe makers, uniform makers, etc. We are a revenue source. Period.

If M and M+ were combined (something that I favor) there would be many teams disband or attempt to drop into the AAA division. The obvious impact would be less gross revenue for senior associations.

We'll be just as wise to discuss how we might change the weather. Interesting dialogue at times but totally unproductive.

There are two constants...
It is what it is... and it aint changin'.

M+ players are similar to the Georgian Colonists whose primary role was to be a buffer from the Native Americans.
BW
July 3, 2013
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
RightRj......"SSUSA doesn’t give a flying F@@k about the guys who really know how to play the game"……understand your frustration but to say major + players are the only guys who know how to play is soooooooooooo wrong you might want to stay away from such generalizations.
July 3, 2013
rightrj1
Men's 55
180 posts
Corky,
How many years has this conversation been taking place? Has anything changed? Beside the HR rule being a walk! I understand you’re an employee of SSUSA & have to take their side & I’m sure there are plenty of guys on the AA & AAA level that know how to play the game……This was about the Major + division!! However my point being that the more talented players play in the Majors & Major + divisions & their concerns for the game seems to fall on deaf ears when it comes to their needs or wants……We all understand this is a business for you & yours & that the revenue is generated from the lowers divisions…….Therefore, I stand by my statement!! Sorry if you or anyone else was offended or perceived I was generalizing....
July 4, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
With the exception of Rock n Reno and the Worlds, aren't the other tournments already combine Major & Major+ now? They also combine 50 & 55 in some cases.

SW Championship -- Had 2 50 Major+ teams
NW Championship -- Had 1 50 Major+ team
California State -- Has 1 50 Major+ team
Western Nationals -- Who knows yet, but there has not been many in recent years.

I speak of the West Coast because this is what I know, the East Coast may be different, but I doubt it.

How many HR's do Major+ teams hit? It's not as many as most think. People assume that all Major+ players do is just hit the ball over the fence. Sure, some teams get on a roll, but for the most part I really doubt that many teams average more than 9-10 balls hit over the fence per game. The "walk" rule does help protect the pitchers in the Major+ and Major division and the 5 runs per inning helps keep most games close!

Major - 6 HR's, then walks, 5 runs an inning
AAA - 6 HR's, then outs, 5 runs an inning
AA - 2 HR's, then outs, 5 runs an inning

There will always be a few teams that are just a little better than the rest, make them play with a "+" by their name if need be.

If non-plus teams want to have an 11th defensive player, let them have it. It does make a BIG difference. Taking 5 runs that you don't actually earn is a joke.
July 5, 2013
KennethH
10 posts
50 Major +Division, (SSUSA Suggestion)

As a player, I look forward to playing in a tournament with 6 or more teams.
Last year team was the Maverick, this year team is Az Elite, If there are 6 or more teams in the tournament I have no problems competing to win the championship against the Maverick / Az Elite. Even if we were to finish 2nd in every tournament I can live with those result until one days we will pull off the upset. But my point is I look forward to playing a tournament with many teams and I will deal with the two exceptional teams that might win every tournament, but I will not pay to play in a tournament with 2 teams and we play a 2 out of 3.

Major plus games will always be competitive with 5 run per inning and 7 home runs and then walks.

Our team will not play again to the World, where we believe there will be more than 6 Major plus (50)teams.

We look forward to revenging our losses to OKI and Az Elite and all other teams that will be in Vegas.

Next year schedule for 50 Major Plus should be as following:

50 Major Plus tournament should be scheduled in PHX in early March 2014
1. (All 50 Major plus teams on the West Coast must participant and East coast teams are welcome)
2. Next Tournament should be in California in Early May (all west coast teams must participant, east coast teams welcome)
3. Next tournament should be back in Phx in August, playing in the evening (all west coast teams must participant, east coast teams welcome)

Conclusion

I am just suggesting that the 50 Major Plus teams commit to 3 tournament a year and the world, (1 tournament every other month) This example should keep the cost down for the California teams and AZ teams.

Each tournament should be a 2 day tournament (Sat/Sun)
5 runs per inning
7 home run per game and than walks
1-1 count
1 game seeding and then double elimination (3 games guarantee)
Add 10 mins to bracket games before open inning
Last game on Sat starts no later than 745pm and 1st game on Sun no earlier than 9am
Entry fee should be refunded if 6 teams have not enter 2 week before the tournament.
Managers should confirm there teams are enter for all 3 tournament.

Unless more teams commit to 3 tournaments a year this level will never have tournaments worth playing and spending the $$$

I can be reached at cadogone@yahoo.com

RA

July 6, 2013
ICELADY
Men's 60
19 posts
Do away with the Major Plus Division or force them to play by the adjoining states rule. Home runs over the limit should be outs. If these two suggestions were implemented, the problem would take care of itself.
July 16, 2013
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Let's Not Sweep this Topic Under The Rug ! ! !

Where are "WE" in regards to 50M+ Schedule Coordination out here on the West Coast? And how's the Health of the 50M+ Division out in your Neck of the Woods ? ? ?


Regards,
Jeff White #7
Arizona Elite
July 17, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
I think the schedule coordination for this season is already set. As for 2014, an exchange of emails at the Worlds in Las Vegas would be a much needed first step to get Major+ teams together.
July 17, 2013
olie04
Men's 50
45 posts
My opinion, It appears to me that the same people on this board complaining about M+ are the same ones complaining about most topics on here. It is fine to express your opinion but how about posting something positive towards Senior softball. I don't hear the M+ players from OKI, Nazzarino, Gods Sports Company,Northwest Legends complaining. Until the vast majority speak up for change, it will not happen. Seems to me it is the lower division players who complain the most....Why?, You can form your own opinion on that. I love this game and whatever the rules are,and as long as everyone has to adhere to them, then have fun. Life is far to short to spend the majority of your time focusing on trivial, non productive behavior. Spread the love between the chauked lines, it truly does feel good.

Kim (Ollie) Oliverson #10
GSC (Gods Sports Company)
July 17, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Ollie, I see this thread in a much different light.

Everyone that plays senior ball and posts on this site obviously is thankful we still get to play.

I see posters looking at Plus ball and giving ideas to make it much healthier.

ie...easier to entice the major teams that get bumped to stay together and move up.

Do you agree that Plus ball is not thriving at this time?

Do you agree that team numbers in Plus are to low?

I find it very hard to set a value on individual non productive behavior.......one mans internet softball time is another mans gym time....as long as it has value to that individual I see no way for it to be considered non productive.

As an example...I once saw a player in senior ball have his beard tied with a ribbon into a bow... It must have taken many minutes of his "life time" to do this...some that judge would call that time non productive / wasted...I figure it was his time and if it was a priority to him ...it was productive;-)

Come to think of it....I might have been able to grow a beard and get a ribbon bow tied onto it since I started this long post....maybe I even owe you a few minutes if you deem this post.... non productive...SORRY
July 17, 2013
olie04
Men's 50
45 posts
Tim, the mans time was obviously productive since his original intent was to have his beard tied into a bow. He achieved this. The intent of changing M+ by discussing it ad nausium by the same few voices has not resulted in any changes that have made major plus thrive. I don't mean to take away your feeling of productivity regarding yours, or anyones posts. Hope you and anyone else that thinks M+ is in need of change, finds what they are searching for. I come from a state where there is no M+ (Utah). Maybe my perception is tainted. My opinion on why there are so few teams in M+ is simple. There are very few players who can compete,want to compete, and have the money to compete at that level. Thanks for your input Tim.
July 17, 2013
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Okay, so where are we with Creating Productive 50M+ Schedules ? ? ?
July 17, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Jeff,

I do not think a creative schedule can be done efficiently on SSUSA website, because my view would be the 50 Plus teams create their own couple/few tourneys around the country to supplement what SSUSA is giving us..

I believe comp is a good thing. But I don't think it's fair to set our schedules to include non SSUSA eventson their website.

I'd say....try creating the Triple Crown....SSUSA, USSSA and one other "World" spread out around the country.

I would also like to see them be two day events, at a fair price.with them supplying the balls.

ie...talk USSSA into a Sunday/Monday event at the Smoky, Dudley of Last Chance...they only return three teams on Sunday....why not piggy back on it and see it some of the old guys would want to watch the youngsters Saturday...then play starting Sunday.

The other two legs could be SSUSA World and one other event... ASA SPA NSA...whatever we chose...

Maybe all the associations go into one pool and we decide which three we all go support.

I'd say SSUSA should be given some "limited" additional support...beaded on being an early supporter of senior ball.

July 17, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
The way I feel, if my team makes it to M+ ball, I'm sure we will be cherry picking the Tourneys that we choose to play as it stands now in SSUSA...

My team chooses to play 16 Tourneys this year and possibly one more at winter worlds(we self sponsor)... That being said, we play 4 SSUSA Tourneys and the rest are NCSSA Tourneys. I believe that we will still have the NCSSA sanction to give us all the softball we need and when we get to SSUSA M+ we will just see if it's worth going(depending on the amount of teams)... Three team tourneys are for the birds IMO!

SSUSA has heard all The Opinions/ERRRRRRRRRRRR bitching about 50M+, and should be able to formulate a plan to fix or help 50 M+ if they feel it needs fixing..

50M+ is a select few teams and they all should be talking to each other through this board and emails to help M+ have more than three teams show up to make a decent Tourney for themselves.
July 17, 2013
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
rightrj1....just as there are players in others divisions that "KNOW" how to play the game, just because my monicker is Corky doesn't mean I'm the Corky that works for SSUSA.....I'm not....just a nickname like his....and I have played at the major level...actually have played all levels except major+....Never wanted that label.
July 18, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Ollie, your ASSUMING those of us voicing ideas to make plus healthier have a short time window. And we all know assuming does...it makes ASS out of U and some Chinese guy named MING;-)

Just like that beard the softball guy grew...change takes time.

At least the hair growing time frame gave that player down time to decide on a Windsor or Bow..

I am sure that the bow tied wonder didn't think he would meet his fashion goal in short order....

Ollie, If you did take the time to scroll down and read this....I hope you don't see it a non productive use of time;-)
July 18, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
I believe we had made progress, if you look at the potential
Major Plus teams that are suppose to come to the HOF Tournament in Manteca, I don't think you would feel we are not being productive.

50 Major Plus
Nazzarino
North West Legends
Rated Athletics
GSC
MTC 50

This to me looks like a pretty good bracket the same amount teams as Rockin Reno and at a cost of $300 vs $550 and a it is a great complex Manteca BLD. We are only missing AZ Elite, this should be the biggest field we will have until LV.
July 18, 2013
olie04
Men's 50
45 posts
Tim, I can only gain perception from your post based upon my own frame of reference. I arrive at my assumptions from that. Keep fighting towards the changes you desire. Even Curt Flood saw his battle become a reality. Hope too see you in Manteca with all the other 50major + players. P.S. scrolling is not non productive, it fine tunes my index fingers sensitivity:-)
July 18, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Ollie....here is a little secret....scroll with your thumbs...

Gotta go now...I see a windmill on the horizon.
July 23, 2013
Malo37
52 posts
LeeLee,
I wish we could have come to your event. The problem this year is that we had players already purchase non-refundable flights to Sacramento. We would have really enjoyed a 6 team battle against the best of the best. We should all really try and get a meeting scheduled in Vegas at the world tourney and share contact info and ideas and maybe even commit to certain tournaments for 2014 so that we could all plan for them. I like the dialogue, I think if we were all playing in tourneys that were well attended then there wouldn't be any problems. So maybe communication and planning is more of a key to solve the major = issue. Lets all get together and commit to playing together in different locations so that we all share the expenses throughout the year. Would you Norther Cal teams agree to a trip to SoCal, or AZ, or Vegas if we would have a 6 team turnout? I think if you guys would do that AZ Elite would also plan on being in Nor Cal, Vegas, and So Cal. How about a major + meeting in Vegas?

Dave Quiroz
Az Elite #37
602-885-7550
davidquiroz37@gmail.com

Would all the 50 major + leaders please email me their contact information. I'll get it all into one document and redistribute to everyone. Then maybe we could jump on a conference call as we plan our 2014 schedule. I'm willing to spear head this effort. Let me know your thoughts.
Dave
July 23, 2013
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
As a Major Plus player myself, I used to think we needed to combine the Major and Major plus. This would work except for the biggest issue. Most Major teams don't want to play up for whatever reason. Then I thought of what it was like back in young mans softball. There are only 4 Super teams back when I played. If you went to a tourney where they were there was a chance that you would have to play them. Whats changed since then, we did not have to give the lower rated teams runs. We played them straight up. Sure there were a lot of short games then, but every once in a while we would lose to a team that just flat out hit us. Its almost like we have went back to T ball days as seniors, everyone gets to hit, only so many runs per inning, have to give up runs or an extra fielder. This past weekend one of the Major teams that got bumped to Major Plus came in second to us in Dalton. They did not have the power some of the other teams had, but they just went out and played their game. Good Job Brylies Pub from New Jersey. I would like more teams to play, but I want them to want to play up, not forced to. The therory of breaking up teams would not work, because you would have 6 Plus guys asking 6 Major guys if they wanted to play plus, and we already know what that answer is!!! Leave us alone, its fine the way it is!!
Dale Mayo
#10 OKI
July 25, 2013
Malo37
52 posts
Hey Mario, I agree. Nothing wrong with the rules. We just all want to play in tourneys that have more teams to play against. I know we'd all like to play more against the best competition. We'd enjoy playing against you guys more often as your squad is definitely one of the best of the best. I'd appreciate getting the contact info for your team to include in a 50 major+ managers document that I'll share with all teams. Hopefully through communication we can coordinate better attendance by major + teams. That's the goal.....
July 25, 2013
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Malo37 our manager is Norm Stafford and his phone number is 513-376-4843. I think its a great idea that we get together and see where everyone is going to play. Maybe with a little coordination we can help ourselves.
July 25, 2013
Malo37
52 posts
I agree with some communication and planning we should be able to make this work. FYI I left Norm a message.
Thanks,
Dave
July 25, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Here is my contact info....our MTC team votes on all issues so I really don't have final say... Tim Millette 925 878-9245
July 26, 2013
Malo37
52 posts
Still need a central point of contact per team. Thanks for your number. How about email?
July 28, 2013
ICELADY
Men's 60
19 posts
Combine the M and M+; Adjoining states rule in effect; Home runs over limit are outs This would provide good number of teams for tournaments instead of playing 1 or 2 teams. If M+ teams want a division to themselves, let them have it by choice. No restrictions, no limit of players dropped or added, let them slug it out. That is how they like to play & I respect that, just don't subject other teams to their standards. Respect everyone's ability to play, regardless of level. Moving teams up to M+ level is causing teams of all regions to disband. Senior softball waw meant to keep our seniors active & have fun while doing so. M+ division takes the fun out of it for many. Wat a shame. I repeat, I respect the M+ players & they should be able to compete at that level if they so choose.
July 28, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
So you are saying that if a Major+ team is willing to play with whatever would be decided as Major rules, they can?
July 29, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Having played 6 years at AAA before moving to Major Plus last year gives me the advantage of seeing both sides close up. Major Plus teams do not just grow on trees. To be a M+ team that is competitive, you need much more than just bombers. You need a mix of power, speed, defense, position players, table setters, and you really need guys that do get along. Hitting/power alone will not win at M+. To get 15 or 16 or more players that play at that level is impossible in a lot of areas of the country with smaller population bases. New Mexico is one of them. Until recently, at 50 and 55 we had nothing higher than AAA. We do now have both a 50 and 55 major team, but they are now scrambling to recruit stronger players to compete at the higher level. When you get these teams assembled, you now have to travel to play. I have to go at least 450 miles-minimum-to play now. That costs money-lots of it. I'm not rich, and I know a lot of players are not either. Money may be, IMHO, the biggest factor in teams not wanting to become M+. Wanting to play with friends vs. being the most competitive you can be may be the second most important factor. Those 2 issues are the biggest roadblocks to building the M+ division, and it is very possible that there is no answer. Traveling 1000 miles to a tournament to play a best of 3 with one other M+ team is, at best, questionable use of travel funds. Having said this, I feel all the tweaking of HR rules and runs per inning are really just futile attempts to fix the unfix-able. Attempts to move more teams up to the M+ level have proven to be less than successful, too.
My suggestions??
1. All coaches of active M+ teams in each division should be on each others email list and try to coordinate schedules to pick 3-4 tournaments a year to all try to make as a priority to ensure a larger division-maybe 6-8 teams or more.
2. This will be controversial. Open up the border rules. Make the Mississippi the dividing line between east and west-You may find more major and AAA players that are capable of playing M+ would get the opportunity if they want to. This goes together with suggestion 4.
3. M+ home runs should never be an out. (STOOPID BATS nonwithstanding). If you really look at it, the guys that still can hit it out have worked hard to continue to be able to at this age. That becomes more apparent the older we get. There were not all that many homers in Dalton at the 60 M+ level. We hit 25 in 5 games and 2 guys hit over half of those. Superior didn't hit that many-they just executed and hit every hole out there. I think Line Drive hit 9 against us, but they also had tons of base hits. Seven to nine HR's, one up and a walk is IMHO a good level to set.
4. The Major Plus TAG needs to be treated a bit differently than it is. I've talked to several players who are afraid to be labeled and not be able to play locally. I played for 6 years at AAA. Did I dominate the division? Heck, no. I played within the 3 HR rule-and it was an out after that for all but one year I played AAA. Sure I hit a few for outs, but that was the way it was. But my point is-if a player does decide to play M+ and then, for whatever reason (money, team folds, cut, etc.), he should be able to petition to go back to a lower level right away. This goes with the opening of the borders to allow teams to recruit more from farther away. I know, Dave, that's more work, but the M+ division is not that big comparatively-( everyone here is complaining about that)-and it may encourage more players to give it a shot. I don't think you would have an overwhelming amount of petitions.
As Beasley said-let the attacks begin-but I wanted to put out a different thought.
July 29, 2013
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
While our team was at the Cal Cup a few weeks ago, some of the "powers to be" were telling some of the managers..... Next year; no major plus. There will be AA, AAA & major. All major teams will be allowed 6 M+ players. This means our 65 M+ team will have to breakup into 3 major 65 teams. We are all friends on and off the field with all of us former GSF, GRIMES and others. So now it looks like we'll all have to "bid a due" to our friends of many years. Omen will have to disband too.
July 29, 2013
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Crusadervb,

"All major teams will be allowed 6 Major Plus players" does not sound like a sensible solution for Major teams. May be good for Major Plus splits, but do you expect Major teams to dump players to make room for 6 Major Plus players. This also would assume that SSUSA would be rating players. There has to be more to this or it will just not work out. Many teams drop players from one season to the next to improve their teams. I have done this, but I will not drop players to add 6 Major Plus players. If I did do this, I might as well fold my team, and hook up with 6 Major Plus players. I think many teams would agree with that too. Too drastic of a move for SSUSA and could be very costly for them too. This might be the worst move that this organization will make, so I am doubting that this will occur.

Another note, while most of the Major teams stay as they are for the most part, Major Plus split up teams will pick up all of the players leaving their current teams after the Vegas Worlds and still have a Major Plus team by the standards of the current rules. What a joke and disaster for SSUSA.

Like I said previously, this is supposed to be fun, keep seniors active, and about dollars and cents. On the last item, this is a business and here to make a profit, and to change it as Crusadervb has indicated makes no cents(sense).

Just My opinions,

Andy Smith,
60/55 Major
July 30, 2013
DCPete
228 posts
ISSA already combined M+ with Major this year and it's not working out. ISSA seems to let teams play at whatever level they want so a lot of the Major teams have dropped down to AAA to avoid playing the M+ teams and a lot of the AAA teams have dropped down to AA to avoid playing the Major teams.
July 30, 2013
the wood
1071 posts
'All major teams will be allowed 6 Major Plus players' and then eliminate the M+ division?

1) What would be SSUSA's motivation to do this? They had 450 teams (+ -) in LV last fall. The M+ divisions had enough teams to make it attractive for them. The M divisions were loaded with teams... AAA had even more. If you were an SSUSA partner would you mess with the golden goose?

2) The division between M & M+ has been there for 14 years now. Aside from USSSA (and now ISSA), the senior assns have maintained this split. We can all speculate as to why this is so but we can't deny that this is how it's been.

3) ISSA has experimented with the merger of M & M+ but I can't really comment on its effectiveness (we haven't played in any ISSA events since 2003). Before LVSSA and SSUSA merged (and SSWS went away) the top 4 events were the LVSSA, SSUSA, SPA and SSWS National Tourneys (IMO). I'm basing this on the M+ division and the criteria is the group of teams that attended (quantity and quality). ISSA was not one of those events from 2005-2009. It was 10-15 years ago though. One could guess that their motive to merge M/M+ is market share based... or... it could be that they wanted to increase bracket sizes. I'm not in a position to know the real answer. As an aside, SSUSA was the first assn to extend the deadline on 1.2 bats (taking a calculated risk) and this has worked well for them. Many of you were not aware that this occurred in 2004 or so. Coincidently, you can purchase any one of several senior bats from SSUSA's web site. Hmmm!

4) Lastly, the 'behavior of senior players' is such that eliminating M+ will most likely create a chain reaction of events such as the 'roster shuffling' previously mentioned. Again, why would SSUSA risk injuring its cash cow? When I say the behavior of senior players I'm talking about a strong majority but not every player.

These are just my feelings but they are based upon what I've observed over the past 16 years. It is my opinion that it would take a catastrophic event ($ driven) for SSUSA to do away with M+.
But... if I'm wrong about this (and I've been wrong many times before) one team that would benefit from such a change would be Ruth Realty (any of the Ruth teams currently rated as a M team). If you connect the dots you'll find that Bill Ruth owns part of SSUSA. It was Bill that felt that the FL & CA borders ought to be closed even though there was/is no compelling evidence to support this.

As Yogi Berra once said 'you can observe a lot just by watching'.
BW
July 30, 2013
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
the wood,

Wow! You are right on target about everything. As important as all of your statements are, I intentionally left off my statement above regarding Bill Ruth, because I have commented enough in the past about W.E Ruth and their goings on to benefit themselves. It is worth repeating your statement though......."But... if I'm wrong about this (and I've been wrong many times before) one team that would benefit from such a change would be Ruth Realty (any of the Ruth teams currently rated as a M team). If you connect the dots you'll find that Bill Ruth owns part of SSUSA. It was Bill that felt that the FL & CA borders ought to be closed even though there was/is no compelling evidence to support this." Nice to have someone else say it!!

You are absolutely correct. Talking to players during the week in league play and at tournaments, all are aware of this, but accept the obvious, that ownership has its priviledges. By that deduction, most players/teams just do not care to deal with it, but are not happy about it. I know SSUSA has a huge following and has plenty of revenue, because they put on the best tournaments. They could be making much more, but teams have been playing elsewhere, to not have to deal with these issues.

Just my opinions! Have a great day gentlemen! See you all on the fields some time!

Andy Smith,
60 Major/55 Major
July 30, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
I think the six plus per major team would be a mistake...

plus has value if you weaken the dominant teams with some kind of player restriction once they have proven to be dominant at the worlds.
July 31, 2013
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
Woody hit the nail on the head.. I have one question, if your 60 major team wins the world, don't you move up??? Who won it last year???
July 31, 2013
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
Excuse me.....65 major......
July 31, 2013
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
65 Major Champs, 1st American who beat Tharaldsons, did move up. The core of that group went to 70 Major+. Tharaldsons also got moved back to 65 Major+ after a runner-up finish. Ruth was gone quite a bit earlier at the Worlds.
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