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Discussion: Need for an arbitration committee?

Posted Discussion
Sept. 25, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Need for an arbitration committee?
In Palm Springs this weekend
at the Senior Softball Worlds
there was a request made by the Old A's in the 60’s
to have a bat confiscated for illegality
on the Thomas Engineering squad.
Seems as though this hitter of theirs
was hitting balls way out on field 7 repeatedly
while few of us Major plus 50’s guys
managed to squeak any over at all.
The catcher from the Old A’s picked up the bat in question
and noticed it didn’t balance where Freaks normally do.

A formal request was made by no less than
the head of the Senior Softball illegal bat committee
to have the bat confiscated and examined.
The bat was taken and returned to the accused team
without meaningful scrutinization.
Something about not filing a fee was cited
and the bat was returned to the team.
It is my understanding that no fee is required
in the confiscation of a bat for scrutiny
and that for some reason
the rules as they are, in place,
were not followed.

Let me be blunt.
If this association or any association we play in or for
does not do all that can be done to discourage
and eliminate illegal or altered bats
which are a danger to the players,
specifically pitchers and I am a pitcher.
and if a guy hits me with a ball from an illegal bat
I will treat the situation as though he came after me with a claw hammer
and not stop till I’m done with him.

Also it has come to my attention
that in the same tournament in the 60’s
that a player, Doc DeMarco from the Old A’s
was told
he could be used as an exemption player
earlier in the year by Vicki,
the operator of the tourney.

After spending 1 large to come for the weekend
they blocked him from participating
saying he was never approved and both he and his wife
remember hearing from Vicki months ago
that he was.

If that was me, with my non- budget for softball
and I spent 1 large to get here and\
you tried to keep me from playing
no one else would be playing either.

There must be rules we go by, all of us,
that ensure fairness and safety,
as much as possible
or there's just no reason to play
unless you’re a cheater.
Unfair competition is meaningless to master.
It’s really no competition at all.

Exposing vulnerable players to illegally wrought injury
is unacceptable at any level, any time
and shouldn’t be tolerated by any of us.

First, I want a formal accounting for all to see
regarding both incidents cited above.
Have one of your representatives post something for all of us to see.

Next, I demand all associations put in obvious place
an apparatus to deal with these difficult and important
matters.

If not, then I suggest we put one in place and help
RB, and Ridge and Terry and Ruth et al,
by creating an arbitration committee of elected representatives
to act on our behalf
to help in rendering
IMPARTIAL judgments regarding these
and other important matters
as I have come to learn
that some of the heads of our organizations
have conflicting interests regarding some the teams
that may be involved.

What do you say?

Sept. 25, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JOE, PIG PIN HERE:: I watched both games.
U r off in right field. In the 1st game, T.E., hit 4 home runs. # 21, of T.E., hit 2. These balls went about 320 ft.J.C. # 25, hit 1 in the 1st game. @ 8:00am & 10:00am, it was below 85 degrees.
Also, field 7 is shorter & the wind was blow' out. I watched the 50 Major game. On field #6, the field that we played on & lost is a larger field & the wind was blowing in on Sat.
Sunday, I saw a player hit on field #6, several bombs. These balls 1 hopped the road. That means that he was hitting those 44 cor 375 comp balls over 350 ft., w/ an almost brand new FREAK.
I watched this same # 21, hit H.R., in Vegas @ Russel Rd.
The balls that he did hit were one that were lifted & the wind did help. No Line Drives. The bat that Thomas Engineering used were several Freaks. If, I am correct, T.E., had 4 Freaks. But, the bombs being hit by a Major team & this team had @ least 4 FREAKS, on field # 6, were of wonder. Also, the sound of the ball off the T.E.'s bat of player # 21, were not as loud as those hit by one 50 Major player.
Joe, if, there was an illegal bat, it was being used in the 50 Majors & not the 60 MAJOR PLUS.
Sept. 26, 2006
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
I have agree with Stoneman on this one. I've played with both home run hitters on RBs team mentioned when I lived in Virginia. They are both LEGITIMATE home run hitters and do not need assistance from illegal equipment.

In my opinion, they beat our Hendricks team fair and square on Saturday evening. Neither hit one out against us (at least I don't recall any!).

Stoneman, I know you know who #25 is (Jerry Connor) and #21 is Ralph Godwin. I know for a fact, that Ralph is one of the premier hitters in senior softball and a legitimate home run threat each time he comes to the plate. I may be biased, having played with he and Jerry for years, but that's my take on this.

LL
Sept. 26, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
I'm not weighing in on the illegal bat portion of Einstein's diatribe as I have played aginst both and I'm inclined to agree with LL. As it relates to illegal bats in general... shouldn't we all be more concerned about our own team first?... then look at the opponent's bats.
But I am curious, extremely curious, about the 'exemption' part. I only know of two teams in P.S. that used one (not that there weren't more). But, as a manager, I can honestly state that I didn't know that it existed until we were playing the seeding games. How is it that some knew and some didn't?
Also, if we're playing ASA rules how does an exemption play into it? If we can have an exemption player why can't we use a decent ball? The Decker Shark has an ASA stamp on it.
I do agree with Einstein about the arbitration committee thing. As players, the whole concept of senior softball should be about our best interests, not TDs or Assns. I don't believe that this is true at this time. The Summit was sup- posed to unify things. It appears to me that we have stepped backwards over the past year.
Sept. 26, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
LL,
Being a serious home run hitter doesn't stop someone from using an altered bat but it should.
Think Sammy Sosa.
Plus, why wasn't the bat held for examination by the head of the Senior Softball Illegal bat committee.
The bat didn't balance like a Freak I was told.
If true, that's enough evidence right there
to make a determination.

Wood,
The exemption rule this time seems like it was applied
unevenly which doesn't make any sense.
In the 50's Major Plus
we had an exemption player from Virginia but Thunder was told they couldn't have any.
Why were some teams allowed exemption players
and others weren't.

On both these points,
join me in obtaining explanations from the Vicky and whoever represents the tournament organizers
this past weekend tournament in Palm Springs.

And,
what's your opinion about we players
coming up with our own arbitration board
that would represent all of us
to any and all associations regarding issues
of our concern?

Sept. 27, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
E- I have accidentally deleted my rather lengthy response 3 times now. it could be the fat fingers.
Bottom line:
1) yes, I support your thoughts on the arbitration committee.
2) I do not condone illegal bats. But I wasn't there and can offer nothing tangible. We definitely need to clean up our own team first... whether we're just a player, a manager or even an assn director... west or east coast.
3) all of the readers of this board need to recognize that we do have the final answer. It is us that decides which events to attend. Remember the early posts about bringing the U2 back/? Seemed futile at the time? Well, now there are at least 4 assns allowing them. No, it wasn't totally due to this board but it helped.

Think of this... in the 55 major + division this year
1 team in Salem (joke was on GSF)
2 teams in St. Louis
2 teams in manassas
3 teams in Las Vgas (NSA)
4 teams in Seattle
6 teams in Palm Springs
6 teams in Plano
6 or more teams in LVSSA

TDs - if you attact less than 4 teams you might want to reconsider what you're offering. Think about it.
So the arbitration committee, if you will, is another good step toward making OUR GAME more player friendly. We are paying that tab, we should pick the restuarant.
Sept. 27, 2006
batterup0055
13 posts
Einstein,

I was watching at that game, as were many teams like my own who were waiting to play, and observed the Old A's and another attempt at a false accusation....it was nothing more than an empty attempt at slowing a game they were losing. As for the bat in question, anyone can hold a bat at a finger length and cause it to tilt either way. The bat was scrutinized and it was obvious it had never been tampered with in any way. The A's have been known for questionable tactics before. As for the questioned batter, # 21) he has an impeccible reputation as an honest player, just ask anyone. So your 55 team wasn't hitting any out? Hardly a basis for complaining about a 60 or 65 team that was performing as yours was not. Stop your whining!!!!!
As for the exemption, I cannot honestly say what the problem was that some teams were allowed and some not. Everyone knows that certain players have been illegal,. snowbird claims or not, for years, no names mentioned.
Since you only heard about this so-called incident, and were not actually there to see the B.S., you shouldn't blab on about things you don't know about first hand.
just my .02
Batterup
Sept. 27, 2006
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
604 posts
Catchers are a tricky bunch. If a team is on a rally, it is always best to do something to distract the umpire a little bit and delay the game, hopefully halting that rally. I also do not trust a catcher's judgement on the weighting of a specific bat. If they are that good, a bat company could save a lot of money on calibration equipment. Of course we are all a different person between the lines than we are in real life.

That being said, and not having been there, I do agree that if a bat is altered that it should be taken, and if the bat is altered, the player should be suspended. Even if no fielder is hurt, it is knowingly playing Russian roulette with the potential victims in the field. As an umpire, I have pulled a couple of bats to give to tournament directors for other reasons, and no fee was ever taken. To me this is much different than protesting a player. Having an impartial group with player input is a good thing since you have a lot better idea of what really goes on in the field. I certainly would be willing to offer any assistance to that end.
Sept. 27, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks to Dragnet, the TV show,
"Just the facts, ma'am.
Batterup, whoever you are,
on the notion of credibility
you'll do well for yourself to register by your
real name so we can know who were talking to.
Makes me want to believe you more that your being unbiased and telling the truth.

If the bat wasn't balanced normally
it's an illegal bat.
Why wasn't it examined by the no less than the head
of the Senior Softball committee who asked to see the bat.
Hmmmmmm.
As Nancy said, there's no fee involved with the confiscation/examination of a bat.
Still sounds fishy to me.

On the exemption situation,
if the guy was in fact told in the presence of others
including his wife months ago that he was cleared to play
then he spends a thousand dollars to get
here, he and his wife,
there's absolutely, did I say absolutely,
yes, I did,
NO WAY he should have been denied playing.
I hear he's suing the SSWC.
Good for starters.

On the arbitration board
it's a shame associations can't get it together
and realize it's us, the players who's needs they
should be addressing but rather than just spinning our wheels with well intentioned conversations
starting our own board, or union in a sense,
would be a good idea.

A players union.

There's a couple of people, like Nancy and Woody
whom I think would be fabulous reps.

In this day and age with the of electronic conversations
mcch could be done inexpensively
to connect us and administer to our needs.

What do you say?
Sept. 27, 2006
wrg21
Men's 60
1 posts
This is a reply to Professor Einstein....

It has been brought to my attention that there is discussion concerning this past weekend's 60 major plus championship game in Palm Springs.
First of all, I deeply resent your attacking my credibility. I do not know you, and obviously, you do not know me. I have never used, nor do I ever intend to, use an ILLEGAL bat. This false accusation was obvious to all and was, according to some of the Old A's players themselves, an attempt to slow the game down and to also slow our momentum.
Before you sully my reputation again, you need to check with players ( i.e. Don Clatterbaugh, for example) about my credibility.
As for why your team didn't hit any home runs......... I have no answer for that.
It is apparent that you were not present at the game: all you have is second hand information. So, Professor, get down off your soapbox, and make sure that before you start accusations that have no merit, that you know what you are talking about!!!!!!!!!

Ralph Godwin

Sept. 27, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
Fat lady singing again einstein?

Bill


Sept. 28, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Ralph,
I'm glad you came forward and defended yourself.
Using Clatter as a reference is meaningful to me.
He's a once in a lifetime player and person
and is the best hitter in Senior softball
and doesn't use an altered bat.

Do you have any idea why the best wasn't held
for examination?
It should have been.
When normal procedures aren't followed
after a complaint is made it makes you wonder.

And no one has made any refutation or explanation of what
happened to Doc DeMarco having been kept from playing
after being told he could.

This is what a board like this is good for.
Asking and clearing stuff up.

As for 60 Bill,
you're a gutless clown.


Sept. 28, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Batterup,
First you sound a lot like 60 Bill.
Second, you made some categorical points
like the bat obviously wasn't illegal.
How would you know being just an observer?
You couldn't have.
Third,
I'll not respond to anyone on this board who doesn't sign in
and won't be accountable.

Sept. 28, 2006
batterup0055
13 posts
Einstein,

You have got to be the laughingstock of this board. Let me try and get this through your thick skull.....
The reason this bat was given back to the team was that there was NO MERIT for it to be confiscated. # 21 played a normal game with this bat, not like there were 7 home runs or some off-the-wall number. The fact that the catcher held the bat and "claimed" it didn't balance was BOGUS - as everyone knows, you can hold a bat 1,000 ways to make it tilt funny - the umpire, etc all held the bat and determined it WAS FINE. END OF STORY.
As for your player in question, he has been playing illegally for YEARS being a full time resident of COLORADO and yet still playing for a CALIFORNIA team. It's a known fact, and one that was brought up at the summit. That is why he was also DENIED to play at the SPA Nationals in Plano. I suppose now you think the SPA decision at Plano was wrong, too. What's your excuse there????
If someone posted false accusations against me, such as implying I used a doctored bat, I would kick their bald butt back to California. # 21 is too much of a gentleman probably to do that, but since you are such a gutless, spineless wimp who sits at his computer desk and posts crap at will, I am sure that even # 21's goddess of a 6'3" or so wife ( us old guys should all be so lucky) could take care of your mealy mouth.
But please do keep posting, you are always good for a laugh.
Sept. 28, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
On the button Batterup0055, as for einstein you should change you name to something other than einstein as you are not in that league.

unknown bill
Sept. 28, 2006
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Batterup

It’s been suggested before on this board that people should have to fill in the member information so others can know whom the posts are coming from. Your last post aimed at Einstein gives the impression that you would like to “kick his bald butt back to California”, and that he is a “gutless, spineless wimp who sits at his computer desk and posts crap at will”. While that all makes for a good read for the other members, I consider it pretty gutless on your part to say those things and then hide behind some screen name. I have often disagreed with his opinions but I wouldn’t presume to say anything to him without allowing him the option of at least knowing who said it. Why don’t you step up to the plate and fill in the member details and at least let Einstein know who is going to kick his ass. To not do so would be, I guess, pretty gutless and spineless. JMO
Sept. 28, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Batterup,
You're no one of any import to me or the rest of us and
shouldn't be taken seriously on any matter
if you won't register who you are and be accountable
for your remarks and accusations.

Call me or look me up anytime
or stay the gutless clown you have demonstrated
yourself to be.
Sept. 28, 2006
batterup0055
13 posts
Hmm, Einey.....

So according to your logic, I can post a name and be like you and STILL post false accusations and that makes it alright?????

Sept. 28, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
Batter up: You seem to miss two very simple concepts. First of all, you should be less crticial if you're unwilling to state your name. It clearly has less meaning.
Secondly, you seem to confuse the snowbird rule and the exemption player. They are different rules. The issue on this thread isn't the snow bird rule which, in large part, has been a farce.
The exemption player rule didn't require long term affiliation or supporting criteria (such as seasonal residence, driver's license, etc.). It merely allowed SOME TEAMS to utilize a player outside their geographic region. The guts of this matter, and the reason it has been brought out, is that only a few teams knew of its existence before the tourney and that Doc DeMarco was denied as an EXEMPTION PLAYER to the Old A's. The fact that he wasn't allowed to play in SPA is totally irrelevant as that was more about the snow bird thing.
At times, I have also grown weary of Einstein's posture on this board but not because he was gutless or ill-tempered. He is a stand up guy, right or wrong. Verbose, wordy, overly persistent in some cases (IMO) but honest and he truly does have our best interests at heart.
He might be wrong on this bat thing... I don't know as I was not there. There are way too many guys using juiced bats and this is a threat to all of us. This is what motivates him to put himself in this position. I know this... he isn't driven by any ill feelings toward Ralph Godwin. Ultimately, this will come out.
Sept. 28, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
My fault! The name is Bob Woodroof.
Sept. 28, 2006
batterup0055
13 posts
Bob,

Thanks for a thoughtful reply. However, I must take exception to your characterization of Einsten. you call him a "stand up guy"....

Number One: He wasn't even at the event he posted about.

Number Two: He was not in possession of any of the facts, except second hand gossip, at best.

Number Three: He was told by Stoneman that he was "out in right field", given the facts by people who were there ( number of HR's, who hit them, even the temperature at game times), YET still he persisted in posting demeaning characterizations about players who are known for honesty in our not-so-honest game sometimes.

I can understand over zealous posting about a subject, but not at the expense of someone's reputation. Einsten needs to clean up his own act before he so casually disregards the reputations of others he posts about. Not exactly "stand up" characterizations, I would say.

I guess, in the world of Einstein, that if I were catching and a batter came up I had a grudge against, I could at once pick up his bat, rotate it on my finger, scream that it was illegal and have the bat pulled? Players spend months breaking in bats, some are very superstitious about using certain bats, yet Einstein feels simply on the say-so of any catcher, that we can now pull bats? Where is the logic?

I apologize if my language got a bit strong, but I still feel Einstein is dead wrong on this matter and that his affiliation with the A's, and some of their dirty tactics, is truly behind his tirade in this case.
Sept. 28, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
BU, the part where I mentioned Einstein being 'overly persistent' is in line with your last comments. In general, I think that we all ought to be 'on the money' with the facts before we make reports. I am not privy to what goes on in his head so I cannot state, with absolute certainty, why this part of the thread has gone on for so long. Perhaps if he got a sorely needed haircut we'd all have a better view. :-) There are two other primary points in his initial thread that have yet to be adequately explained.
I will admit that if I were in Ralph's spot, I'd be angry. But I feel that Ralph has a tremedous long term reputation which will survive this. Once he has stated his position (given the lack of any real offsetting evidence) we should move on. Ralph has done this.
I do not believe that Joe is affiliated with the Old A's in any way other than he played for them 4-5 years ago. He and Gary T had a strong difference of feelings and he departed.
Having met Joe (and having played against him), I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. When in P.S. I personally asked him to start the thread about '4 day tourneys' and he has done so. A lot of the issues that have been discussed here are a result of folks asking him to take the lead. Again, let me make it crystal clear that I do not always agree with him.
Why are you unwilling to state your name?
Is there anyone out there that can add anything that is meaningful to the exemption player element? Why was it applied so discriminately?
Sept. 28, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BATTERUP: It was nice 4 u to admit that some of yer words were, "language got a bit strong." It takes a man to admit that he may have got 'off course a bit."
JOE, is one of the best 50-55 MAJOR PLUS, players in the WORLD. EINSTEIN, is also, a pitcher. A damn good one. I would love the chance to play w/ this man on a team. Even when his team is play' poorly, Joe , his team down by 15 runs will still drive for a ball.. Joe, really loves to play....

"but not at the expense of someone's reputation", this comes & goes. Several yrs. ago, I was accussed using an illegal bat. This is very funny. I was not @ that Reno Event. How can grown men get Rick P. & Me mixed up..

Bats, the 1st batch of FREAKS, were 1 to 1 1/2 oz. heavier that 'stamped.'
PLAYERS, will listen to Joe, because Joe, is smart, a great person, & has the games best interest...
BATTERUP-- There r many players in SENIOR ball that will do almost anything to win. Even to the point of stealing another players bat.

Before u 'kick' Joes butt, I will c u in hell. NOW, this last statement is rude & wrong. BatterUp, come to Vegas & we can watch some games & have a few beers, drinks, lunch, etc.

U have the right to be silent. But, the SENIORS, on this MESSABE BOARD, will have even more respect 4 u, when u post yer name, nick name, city, age group. We all make mistakes. To forgive is one of GOD'S greatest gifts. I am sure that Joe, will forgive..

ANYWAY.... BEST of LUCK... KEEP POSTING...... TONE DOWN... I learned a lession..... let the other person have that bad day & be glade that u r not in their shoes & that U r not having a bad day.

The STONEMAN......................OUT
Oct. 2, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Woody and Stoneman,
You are stand up guys who's opinions and observations
are important to us all.
You are examples of what our board is,
can and should be all about.
I know the guy and we can only assume its a guy
posing as batterrup is not.

And even giving his comments any credibility
in a SERIOUS discussion is wrong.
If not, anyone can say anything to or about anyone
anytime without reference to reality, respect or the truth.
And that ain't American in the best sense of the word.

Don't give this gutless clown a voice.
He doesn't deserve one till he's willing to admit who he is.

He could be a famous bat doctor, for example,
and have a bias that would turn everything he's attempting to say.

Bat things are very serious and need to be dealt with
by all of us responsibly, accountably and soon.
Sorry BU, as it stands,
that leaves you out on both counts.

As to the specific situation of the bat scene in Palm Springs
it's what happened and not who happened that's important.
I don't know Ralph.
He sounds like a stand up guy and one hell of a hitter.
He defended himself.
But, as I understand, the rules as they existed then
about confiscation of questionned bats
was in fact, not followed.
It doesn't matter about Ralph or some specious bat doctor
in the long run, only the short.
In the long run we need to have in place
and enforce clear standards and procedures
to handle a problem of ours that has already gotten
way out of hand.

Lastly, I'm serving notice on any guys who use
illegal bats any time and anywhere.
Stop now.

Listen to this, BU, bat doctors are criminals, as much or more then the players and managers who use them
and should be held liable, legally and personally,
by ALL responsible and accountabile members of our community, they being, players, managers, tournament directors and bat companies.



Oct. 2, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Lastly for now,
if we can't/don't come together on illegal bats
as a community than selected by us
arbitration board, or a player's union
make a lot of sense.
Real representation, for a change,
on all issues that relate importantly to us.
What do you say?
Oct. 2, 2006
batterup0055
13 posts
O.K. Einstein,

Having calmed down a bit over the past week about your postings, please give this a thought.....


You state it doesn't matter the details about the bat question in Palm Springs. What you fail to see is that empty accusatons like this mask the REAL problem. I agree there are altered bats out there, ( and sorry to bust yer bubble, but I am not a bat doctor) and many of us know who uses them. And have for years. Certain Bat Doctors are well know? Yet it goes on and on...
What you fail to see is that in this case, the bat was examined by the ump and was determined to be fine and then was returned.

Doesn't it strike you as funny that the head of the bat committee, a.k.a. Gary, was also the first baseman that day, playing against a rival that they were losing against???? Suspicious timing for "questioning" a bat, especially noting the game facts that have been posted previously. YOU CANNOT DETERMINE ABOUT A BAT SIMPLY BALANCING IT ON YOUR FINGER!!!!

talk you your Old A's buddies. Ask them about prior empty claims they have done before against rivals. They once held up a game an hour against this same team ( while losing) claiming one of their players was not who he said he was, before their claim was tossed out and they went on to lose. Funny stuff.....

I understand your zeal against altered bats. really I do. All I am saying is that it DOES matter about WHO and WHAT you post about. In future posts, please determine the facts FIRST HAND ( not by second hand gossip) before you name names. THis only hurts your diatribes in the end and despite what you think, puts out false information about people who don't deserve it.

And please stop obssessing about who I am. part of the charm of the net is ebing able to post thoughts freely and/or anonymously.... if I signed "Joe" or Bob" at the end of my postss, does it really change the content of those same posts?
Oct. 2, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I'm glad you've calmed down but you're still accountable
for what you have said and done.
And it's never too late to stand up and be a man.

And I won't talk to you personally until you reveal yourself.
We've heard from you you're not a bat doctor
which can't even be substantiated until you reveal
your identity.
Either from ignorance,
for kicks or because you are hiding something
you are not coming forth.

You shouldn't be saying anything important and personal from your own values about integrity and manhood
(we can only assume you're a man)
and you DO NOT DESERVE to be taken
seriously about anything you might be trying to say.
No name, no game.
Step up or shut up.

About the bat incident in Palm Springs,
I keep harping on the process in place
necessary to deal with such things.
The umpire giving the bat back doesn't prove anything.
The balance point of the bat is critical
and even a lay person can determine that a bat
that balances funny probably is funny
and at least should be sent/shown to people
who are designated and qualified to deal with it.

I'm sorry and I don't mean to excoriate Ralph
or anyone else
for all the problems we're having about illegal bats
but if the process used in PS was to show it to the ump
and let him make the call, that's grossly insufficient.
Someone who knows what to look for
like the balance point, needs to make that determination
and to my understanding, this was not allowed
in PS.
And there was the designated Chairman of the senior softball committee on illegal/allered bats
there who asked to examine the bat and was denied
by the operator, Vicki Oltean.
Why?

And if that is the process by which bats are meaningfully
challenged for authentication
that's no process at all and we're back to square one,
aren't we.

We need to band together in Senior softball
and get with/behind anyone going in the direction
of getting these weapons out of the hands of our constituents.
That's the game we need to play and win.

Oct. 2, 2006
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
604 posts
Einstein, I can tell that you are concerned and passionate about this. I also want true offenders suspended from playing, but it sounds to me like the incident in Palm Springs is another episode of the oldest trick in the book of a catcher trying to break up a rally. The catcher can no more calibrate the balancing of a bat with his bare hands than I can tell the difference in a fair or foul ball by the sound when it hits the ground. I have been a catcher and an umpire, and I have seen this scenario many times. I will definitely pull a bat that appears tampered with, but the batter gets a good one back. When catching, I have never used a bat as a diversion to break up a rally, but I have used some other trivial detail to do it. The catcher was crafty, and it is not my first rodeo.

Let's find a true incident of an altered bat, and I will even help you if you divert your energy from what looks like a non-incident in this case. Have you ever seen the trick where the catcher tries to pull a dented bat?
Oct. 2, 2006
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
604 posts
Einstein, I am catching up, but you might was to go to www.softball360.com and listen to the September 20 radio show where Gordie of the Old Scout talks about identifying cheater bats. He referenced an announcement to be made in the next week on busting the cheaters, but I have not gotten that far yet if one came out. Anyone else current?
Oct. 2, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Nancy,

One of the prime ways to cheat with a bat is to remove or reduce
the weight that is placed in the handle.
When this is done it affects the balance point, directly.
It's probably the easiest way to discern an altered bat.
And Nancy,
it's not this bat or this guy,
it's not having the awareness, motivation and procedures
in place in big tournaments like Palm Springs
that is most upsetting.

Oct. 4, 2006
tx legends
6 posts
ralph is a class act now and has always been .It is a shame that he has to answer to this type of accusation.i frank hillgardner manager of tx legends 60 think ralph is an excellent rep for what senior softball should be.Ask anyone who knows ralph and illegal is not a word he knows.
Oct. 5, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Guys,
I never mentioned anyone by name when I questionned
the process by which an illegal bat was challenged in Palm Springs.
I was told by those who were involved that the process
by which a bat can/should be challenged
was not followed or is perhaps inadequate.
I was told that the Senior Softball Chairman of the Illegal Bat committee
asked to see the bat and was denied.
These are the issues to me that need to be dealt with
for all of us.
Was the bat illegal?
None of us will ever know.

That's unfair to the guy and to all of us, simultaneously.

A big time power hitter told me a couple of years ago
that when you hit bombs like some of us can
some folks always assume the bat is loaded.
It goes with the territory.
it's like a rite of passage
and marks you are now one of the big boys.

Lastly, for now.
I have a sense that illegal bats were being comfortably used in Vegas this past weekend and it bothers the heck out of me and I don't know what to do about it
except to say,
Don't do it.

Oct. 6, 2006
batterup0055
13 posts
Einstein...

To quote you...

"I never mentioned anyone by name when I questionned
the process by which an illegal bat was challenged in Palm Springs."

SO YOU NOW KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THIS BAT WAS "ILLEGAL"....?
Watch your wording....you are convicting now without evidence...

All I am doing is tossing your own words back to you. For the umpteenth time, the chairman of the bat committee was playing against this team at the time of the so-called challenge, and his team was losing big time.

Do you think it is fair to have a chairman, or someone of this position, that can be playing at the same time he can question a bat of the opposing team, with no evidence other than twiddling it on his finger?

You refuse to answer this question, and I am sure you will again focus on my anonimity rather than my statement.

Let's see if you are man enough to answer my questions instead of focusing on who I am......


Oct. 6, 2006
RB Thomas, Jr.
4 posts
Have tried twice to set the record straight regarding this incident at Palm Springs. Messages have never posted? This is a test. RB
Oct. 6, 2006
RB Thomas, Jr.
4 posts
Failed again. This time I will try shorter multiple messages. The incident at PS has generated a lot of commentary but is void of facts. As manager of the Thomas Engineering team I present you with some facts in this regard:
1. The catcher for the Old A's questioned Ralph's bat and gave it to the umpire. The game official examined the bat then gave it directly to the tournament officials for their inspection. They did not find any indication that the bat was altered in any way.
2. Ralph's bat was a Miken Freak and approved for use in the tournament (had the ASA Certification mark) and was on the ASA approved bat list.
3. Ralph's bat had a balance point that was in conformance with the Altered Bat Catalog prepared by the Senior Summit for a legal Miken Freak.
4. The bat's balance point is exactly the same as a Miken Freak that I sent to Miken Sports for their evaluation (from the ISF tournament) and it was returned as legal.
5. Some Old A's players were later overheard saying they just wanted to break our momentum.
6. The Old A's have a history of protesting Ralph Godwin when losing in tournaments where Doc Demarco was not allowed to play because of residency issues.

RB Thomas, Jr.
Thomas Engineering Manager
Oct. 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks for the good intentions, RB.
We're all waiting.
Sometimes, when I write a lengthy response
my computer let's go of the website
without letting me know
so when I then send what I have written
it doesn't go through.
You can create your document in Word
or some processor then sign in,
and then copy it into the reply window.
That's what I have had to do a couple of times.

Oct. 6, 2006
RB Thomas, Jr.
4 posts
To conclude. Ralph Godwin is one of the premier hitters in our sport. He has played for our team since 1994 and is admired and respected by those senior players who have ever met him. He hits with power and more often than not he leads our team in home runs. On Labor Day weekend he won the ASA award for Most Home Runs hitting 4 out in 5 games. At PS he hit 9 out in ten games.

Let's end this by remembering Ralph Godwin for his MVP role in leading Thomas Engineering to the 2006 World Series Championship in the 60 M+ division. In two games against the Old A's he hit three home runs as Thomas came through the losers bracket with 5 wins (last two over the A's) to claim the championship.

RB Thomas, Jr, Manager
Oct. 7, 2006
Proudtex40
57 posts
I've been reading the various chats in on this site for several years now and although I've replied on various issues, this is one that I "have to " comment on. My name is Steve Shannon (absolutely not afraid to give my name or make these same coments face to face with anyone) and I've been playing softball since 1972. I've played with and against the best players in the game (some still active and some retired) along the years and I can state without hesitation that Ralph Godwin is a man of integrity, honesty and simply put - a class act . I wasn't in Palm Springs so I can't address what went on between the Old A's and RB Thomas, but I'd be more than happy to tell any person to their face that acusing Ralph Godwin of cheating is a bold face lie & a cheap shot at a great human being.
Steve Shannon
Oct. 7, 2006
Tater50
336 posts
I will take the stand: I do not know Ralph, but I have been acquainted with RB Thomas since 2000. He is a man of integrity & honor & I trust what he says.

John W. Hayes
Faith Electric
JAH Masters
Oct. 7, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Proud-Tex,
I remember you.
You played 3rd base against us.
You're a great ball player and a better teammate
and guy as I've seen and heard from many.
You're endorsement of anyone is huge.

Listen,
Ralph isn't on trial here.
He's obviously a fabulous hitter and a better guy.
I'm accused all the time of using illegal bats.
It goes with the territory of being a long ball hitter
as I'm sure you know.

I'm sorry if you have been hurt by my assertions and questions.
Ralph,
it's not you, or about you or even me.
It's the process by which associations address
or in most cases, don't address meaningfully,
the illegal bat issue.

RB Thomas is the manager of Thomas Engineering
and Gary Tryhorn is the manager of the Old A's.
Neither one of these guys should have had anything to do with a process that determined if a bat was legal or legal
as it was their 2 teams that we're playing against each other at the time.

The culprit is illegal bats, their makers and users
and not having in place an efficient meaningful way
to handle on field disputes.

Ralph, again I apologize personally to you
to have caused you any grief or pain around these issues.
To have Clatta and ProudTex standing up for you
as a hitter and a man,
is enough to put you in anyone's Hall of Fame.

Lastly, RB,
on the subject of Doc DeMarco.
It was related to me that Doc and his wife
were told by Vicki some months ago
that he would be elligible to play.
Then he invested his time and money
and came to the tournament.
Then, you dissallowed his participation.
Can you see that if this is true
there's no way you could have/should have
kept him from playing?
Can you comment graciously on this subject
as you have on the illegal bat issue
and help us clear things up?
Thanks.

And lasttly for now,
if there's no way to stand clear from conflicts of interest
that are just part of the fabric of our constituencies
than maybe an Arbitration Board,
designated by US, could weigh in on any of these situations
and issue it's findings to help us clear up important matters
and help us all going forward.

What do you say?
Oct. 9, 2006
batterup0055
13 posts
Einstein,

You are a mess of contradictions....


again, I state your quotations from your last post.

"RB Thomas is the manager of Thomas Engineering
and Gary Tryhorn is the manager of the Old A's.
Neither one of these guys should have had anything to do with a process that determined if a bat was legal or legal
as it was their 2 teams that we're playing against each other at the time."

For your last 18 or so posts, you have screamed over and over that the "head of the altered bat committee - WHICH IS GARY TRYHORN - should have been given this bat. The summation of many of your posts state that this process was not followed, disallowed by Vickie, etc etc.

NOW you come and state that Gary shouldn't have had anything to do with this false claim against this bat.

WHICH IS IT???????????????????

Can you finally see that Gary T should not have the power to grab bats if he is playing at the time, especially against a team he is losing against at the time of his claim???



I am sure you will not be man enough to answer my questions and once again you will focus on my anonyminity.
If you wish to be taken seriously on your arbitration and other posts, you should first learn to stay with the facts and not contradict yourself.

answers, please???? we are waiting.......

Oct. 9, 2006
Proudtex40
57 posts
Einstein, thanks for the kind words. I had no doubt that you weren't questioning Ralph's integrity, but rather bringing up an issue that came up in PS. In my opinion, you are a class act yourself and one of the top players in senior softball. I enjoy reading the comments on this site and I can always count on you to get something started (in a positive manner that is) that creates an interesting topic. Hope you have a great fall and winter and hopefully I'll see you at a tournament or two next year. God Bless.
Steve Shannon
Oct. 9, 2006
RB Thomas, Jr.
4 posts
Einstein, you state "you disallowed" in discussing doc Demarco. Come on, I did not disallow anyone nor could I? NSCSA officials apparently prohibited him from playing in the World Series at PS. I do know that no less than three teams questioned how he could play given the fact that NSCSA does not even have a "snowbird" provision in their code. NSCSA officials were aware that the player was not allowed to play in SPA as a snowbird on a CA team and that his snowbird status was challenged in Seattle in the sswc. He apparently could not convince the tournament officials that his permanent residence was in CA. I am not aware of the details surrounding his participation in an earlier Spring qualifier and can only assume that he was allowed to play since he had obtained a SSWS ID card in 2005 claiming CA as his permanent residence.
Oct. 9, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
Doc Demarco playing/not playing in PS should not have been a function of his legal residency as it was not based upon the snowbird rules. PS allowed one exemption player per team although I only know of 3 teams that were allowed to use one.
Turn Two (55), Kelly's (50) and Hendrick's (60) were the teams that somehow knew about this rule and were allowed to use one. I have repeatedly asked for any SSWS (NASCS) person to answer how this rule was known by so few.
Whatever event Doc was disallowed to play in previously makes for good dialogue but has no real relevance to the PS exemption rule. Unless the rule, which I never saw in any of the pre-event information, stated that it was not available to folks also known as snowbirds or had previously been disallowed to play in other assns.
Again, Vicki Oltean or Greg Maas, can you offer anything concrete on how this rule escaped the majority of teams?
Oct. 9, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
Sorry... my name is Bob Woodroof, GSF
Oct. 9, 2006
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
Bob-
I played all year on the Hendricks 60 major + team and unless Randy added someone to the team that no one knows, ALL our players are based out of Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma.

Larry Lopez
Oct. 9, 2006
the wood
1076 posts
I know that you have, Larry. I was told that you had a player in PS that lives in FL. If this is incorrect, I sincerely apologize. But recognize that I wasn't being critical of any of the teams that used the exemption player rule.
My point is that I only 'knew' of 3 teams that used it and now it's down to only 2 teams (I definitely saw the 50 & 55 exemption players playing).
How did they know about it and no one else did? This can only be answered by Vicki or Greg from NASCS.
Bob Woodroof, GSF
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