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Discussion: Another You Make The Call

Posted Discussion
Aug. 21, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Another You Make The Call
Up front allow me to say this situation did not occur in any game I've umpired. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to short center-field. Centerfielder comes charging in and makes a shoe-string catch--2 outs. Runner on third clearly left early. Runner on second tagged up moved off the bag drawing a throw behind him and a run-down resulted. The runner on third crossed the plate before the defense tagged the runner during the run down. Does the run count?
Aug. 21, 2013
BudLeftField
50 posts
If an appeal was made and the umpire saw the play and ruled the runner on third left early, the runner is out, the inning was over and the resulting rundown was inconsequential and the run would not count.
Aug. 21, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
That's true BudLeftfield but in this situation it was the rundown that was called the third out.
Aug. 21, 2013
BudLeftField
50 posts
The appeal would have been made after the play was over.The runner who left early would have been called out and the run would not count if I was the head umpire.
Aug. 21, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
That is correct BudLeftField. After the third out was made the defensive team can do a dead ball appeal that the runner left third early. If the ump saw it and called that runner out the run would not count. Essentially what has happened is the "4th out" of the inning.
Aug. 21, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
118 posts
The way Stick asked the question the run would count. Because the 3rd out of the inning was not the result of a force out but rather a time play.
However if the defense had appealed the runner at 3rd for leaving early the umpire would have had to evoke the 4th out rule which would have canceled the run.
Aug. 21, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
118 posts
Would like to invite any wierd play, ask the question and lets get some of these out in the open.

Thats the problem is most players do not know the wierd rules and just go back to what they have heard all the years that they have been playing and most of the times they were not enforced correctly.


Question does one of the runner have to be out when two runners occupy the same base during a live ball?
Aug. 21, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
High fly ball to shallow left with 1 out. Runner on 3rd thinks their are 2 outs, he runs home tags the plate, teammates telling him to go back only 1 out. He heads back to 3rd, left fielder does not make the catch, drops the ball....runner headed back to 3rd then turns around to go back home and is thrown out at home. Does the run count because he has already touched home?
Aug. 21, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
118 posts
That is a good one, I would rule that once he heads back to third he has to retag home to be called safe. I would call him out
Aug. 21, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
A former major league umpire told me he thought he would be safe, but he was not certain. I would think he would be safe as he has already scored, but have not seen anything official on it.
Aug. 21, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
118 posts
The reason I wpuld say out is

If there had been other runners on If I was a player I would do that to try and draw a throw to home and let my other runners advance. If I was going to be safe anyway, what would I have to lose
Aug. 21, 2013
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
Now we are into guessing intent. Similar scenario: runner dashed home, crosses line, goes back to retrieve his cap that fell off close to third. Outfielder has retrieved ball and fired it to shortstop who has had back to field. SS turns and sees runner near third base and jogging toward home (on way to first base dugout). He yells at catcher that he is coming home with ball. The dugout isn't sure the runner crossed the home plate line, so they yell at him to get home. Runner is startled and dashes home and is thrown out. Still an out? I don't think so. Ump already saw him score. Even if batter on first advances to second on the unnecessary throw home.
Aug. 22, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Cal50 in the scenario you describe he would be safe--run counts. Reason is the left fielder dropped the ball which means he didn't have to go back and tag.
Now I will say in the scenario you describe a slight possibility an out could be called on that runner if the umpire deems he intentionally distracted the defense by his actions. Suppose the batter-runner was trying to get to second on the play and they had an easy chance to get him out. The outfielder may have heard the batting team hollering at their runner and witnessed the runner on third going back (not knowing he scored) which diverted his attention from getting the easy out at second. Since the runner at third who already scored is no longer part of the play, he could be called out for doing what he did, distracting the defense--although in your scenario it appears unintentional. Like Omar correctly stated it's an umpire guessing intent. It's a tough call to make--one that has to be made right away. Like most calls, one team will say "great call" and the other team will say "terrible call"
Omar in your situation the same thing could be called although the way you word it I might call a distraction by the defense since the runner had already scored--especially if the defense could have potentially had another out on the play.
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