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Discussion: scoring of runs with new COURTESY RUNNER RULE 8.5(5)

Posted Discussion
Sept. 6, 2013
B.J.
54 posts
scoring of runs with new COURTESY RUNNER RULE 8.5(5)
I have a question on scoring of runs with the new COURTESY RUNNER RULE 8.5(5) An illegal courtesy runner on base is committing a continuing violation and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter.... SCENARIO...what happens if you have bases loaded with 2 outs and ILLEGAL COURTESY RUNNER enters game at first base the next batter hits a double and 2 runs score, now defense realizes runner on 3rd was the illegal courtesy runner and appeals it, and he is called out for the 3rd out do runs still score? PART 2 ILLEGAL RUNNER enters game at 2nd base and a bases clearing triple is hit and before next pitch the defense appeals that the runner at 2nd base was illegal does just 1 run score because runner on 3rd scored prior to illegal runner? I realize that normally all runs scored prior to an appeal (unless a force out) usually count, PART 3 of scenario what if after illegal runner reaches 3rd the field umpire realizes he was illegal and calls him out...do runs score...there was no official appeal.
Sept. 6, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
....and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter....
It seems the appeal was not timely in your scenario 1. same for other 2.
Reading these I do not think you make it clear...seems you have plays before noticing, which means there was a pitch after the guy entered the game. Maybe I read it incorrectly but that is how I read them.
Sept. 6, 2013
B.J.
54 posts
taits...yes there was a pitch made and in the past it would have nullified any appeal on the illegal courtesy runner and all runs would score, but now with the RULE CHANGE it states that an illegal runner CAN STILL BE CALLED OUT even after a pitch or any hit as long as he has not scored....in scenario 1 he was on 3rd. What i was asking in EACH SCENARIO do the runs score with the new re-written rule? In SSUSA Tournaments it is the umpires on the field's job to keep track of courtesy runners but not all do this. SO if it is not caught right away what happens to runners???
Sept. 6, 2013
Caveman
Men's 50
64 posts
I think the intent of the rule is that when the appeal is made, the illegal runner is called out from the point that they became illegal. In the first scenario, the runner became illegal prior to the runs scoring, so no runs would score since there were 2 outs when the runner became illegal. In the second scenario, only the illegal runner would be called out, assuming there were no outs or 1 out. The same would apply to scenario three. Although I tried to pull up the rule in the on-line rule book, due to the lovely advertising bar that was recently put in, you can't access it. So my answer is based on the assumption of the intent of the rule
Treacy
Sept. 6, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
IMO, the game has changed somewhat for the worse. Look at all the changes made the last few or more years even. And some of them changed again... all for what... well you know my answer.
That said, we still play though.
Sept. 6, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Forgot to answer,,, Like some rules they are defined or laid out to well. But what ever the UMP says, go with the flow, they have the last word usually.
Sept. 7, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1261 posts
There is NO new Courtesy Runner rule ... A clarification was added last year by the Rules Committee to define an illegal courtesy runner as being an ongoing violation so long as (s)he is on base ... Since most appeal plays must be made before the next intervening pitch, the clarification merely states that an appeal of that runner may be made at any time while the runner is on base or, in the event (s)he scores, before the next pitch ...

The remedy remains unchanged: The runner shall be declared out on appeal ... In the various scenarios mentioned, the runs will be scored in all instances except the case where the courtesy runner scores and the appeal is made before the first pitch to the next batter ... In that case, only the run scored by the illegal runner will be negated ... The only reason the clarification was added was to prevent a team from asserting that there was no appeal allowed because that appeal was not made before the next pitch from the moment the player first became an illegal courtesy runner ... A simple clarification does not constitute a new rule ...

Sept. 7, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Now there is a good explanation, all rules need. With or w\o scenarios.
Sept. 7, 2013
B.J.
54 posts
SSUSA Staff thanx for the clarification and sorry for calling it a NEW rule. If you would please answer 1 more question. Shouldn't the umpire call an illegal courtesy runner out as soon as runner touches the base? Am I correct in saying that this does not have to be an appeal play? RULE 8.5(5) Thx in advance for answer
Sept. 7, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I doubt the call falls on the UMPS. I believe it's up to the opposing team to catch it timely and bring it to his attention to make the call.
Sept. 7, 2013
B.J.
54 posts
Taits....but the rule states illegal courtesy runner will be called out upon touching the bag...there would be no time for appeal? thats why I'd like to know for sure
Sept. 7, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I understand that, but how many umps know the line up or remember that last CR?
I doubt very many.
Chances are 'staff' will see this and reply again.
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