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Discussion: ISSA Virginia Beach tourney rained out.......who got screwed????

Posted Discussion
Oct. 17, 2013
bkb555
87 posts
ISSA Virginia Beach tourney rained out.......who got screwed????
So our team travels 9 1/2 hours from Syracuse NY to play in the ISSA winter national tourney in Virginia beach....it literally misted or rained from the Thursday we got there until the Saturday morning that the Directors sent us back home....we did not even take the equipment out of our bags....I rented a car for 100 bucks, paid 150 for a hotel room, 175 dollars for food and dining, $150 for gas and probably another $100 at the Mall while we waited for the rain to stop on Friday....no big deal, rain happens, weather cancels things...oh well, we enjoyed it while we could BUT!!!!!!!...we get home and find out the Tourney was only giving back $300 of our $525 entry fee because they had to cover the costs of t shirts, plaques, trophies, hats etc.......excuse me but we didn't even get a friggin hat or t shirt or a "participation plaque" and WE have to pay...That is total Bull Shirt on their part.....if I wanted any of those things, I would go to my local outlet mall and get any shirt or hat I wanted etc......if these tourneys "build in" dollar amounts for these expenses, then I don't want to get any of those things...I want to play ball, have some fun, travel with friends and that's it........but the ultimate slap in the face is when you get back home from driving almost 10 hours and you get a phone call or an email that says we owe money for the tournament we never played to cover the difference between sponsor donation and the rest.....TOTAL BS
brian bkb555 Syracuse NY
Oct. 17, 2013
modi
16 posts
Total crap is correct they had over 50 teams there at 525 each and he kept 300 from each of those teams, you telling me he spent 15,00 on tournament expenses? Says he is going to credit the 300 to a future tournament and credit the 225 to another tournament if you attend in April where he will give out the awards from the rained out tournament. How about you just send a refund check to all the teams and take the loss like all the players did on over 50 teams? 50 teams x 10 players x 500 per player for airfare, rental cars, rooms and food is a lot of out of pocket money spent for not playing a single inning. To top it off he was going to make the tournament double elimination with no refund for the bracket games that were not going to be played. Total greed and poor management on the staff at ISSA. They will be lucky if they don't lose teams in the future over this kind of crap. Everybody understands that weather cannot be controlled and that's understandable, but when players spend hard earned money, lose time at work and travel to a tournament that never had a chance of being played is stupid. The staff at ISSA didn't lose hotel, airfare, food and hotel money, they keep 300 from each team, their expenses are covered, leaving the players who support their association screwed. They need to take a look in the mirror and consider how badly they are putting a bad taste in players and teams mouths. What happens if your team doesn't attend a future tournament, do you get a refund check for that 300? What if you don't attend the make up tournament in April do you lose that 225 or get a refund check? My guess is they are hoping teams do not attend the make up tournament and they profit from that left over entry fee money. Bad business, best thing to do is send a refund check to all the teams, say sorry we didn't get the tournament played and look forward to the future events. Guess when they lose teams and it hurts their bank account I tell hit home and finally sink in. Disgusting is what it is.
Oct. 18, 2013
Fabe
Men's 50
209 posts
Wow! Bad business...and that is what this is all about!! Sad that our game has come down to more about making money then promoting the great game we play. Aloha, Fabe
Oct. 18, 2013
Paco13
363 posts
I agree that this is wrong. However, the weather forecast was rain all weekend. Next time pay attention to the weather. I am local and I knew that there was no way that the tourney was going to make it...but nobody listens to me... (Pat and Big E). What I thought RB was trying to do was to try to get at least a game or two in and then pocket the rest of the money, because he knew that there was no way that the tourney could be finished. I didn't know that he was going to charge $300 anyways, wow that is juts dirty. However as I said before in ISSA you pay you play...no roster signing or verification. That is the good thing the bad thing is that he also can do what he wants, he is ISSA and in the mid-atlantic region ISSA is the best thing going. SSUSA has to many rules for me. Signing off.

PR NINJA OUT

JESUS TE AMA
Oct. 18, 2013
bkb555
87 posts
Paco...I should have had you as my weatherman...we had a guy in Va Beach down there on Weds and all the channels said the chance of rain (20-30% showers) lessened as the weekend approached....we had to travel on Thursday and trusted all weather guys (big mistake) so our hands were tied.......I guess the big question is, what did the director do with $225 per team x 50 teams......and at least he should have distributed t shirts, hats or anything that said "Virginia Beach 2013" on it.......kind of makes you wonder how much the actual tourney even costs if they allot that much per team to cover non playing expenses....can any directors give us players a summary of tournament costs just to enlighten us......we probably wont go back there if we risk the chance of paying for something and getting nothing in return in the case of a tourney canceled.....really a sad situation
Oct. 18, 2013
Sparky.1
Men's 55
69 posts
Fabe: This is just what you & I talked about and is the TOTAL REFLECTION of the ENTIRE SENIOR SOFTBALL format...........SIMPLY QUANTITY WITH NO CONCERN TO QUALITY!

NO WONDER I AM STILL UP IN THE AIR ABOUT MY RETIREMENT FROM SPONSORSHIP...............THIS "SENIOR" format IS SIMPLY FOR THE ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REGARDS TO THE PLAYERS, FANS AND SPONSORS.

GET THOSE BIG ENTRY FEES AND JUST POCKET WHAT YOU NEED REGARDLESS.

WHAT A SHAME THAT THE GAME WE ALL LOVE, HAS BECOME A MIRROR IMAGE REFLECTING THE SAME FORMAT TO HOW OUR POLITICIANS RUN OUR COUNTRY!
Oct. 18, 2013
modi
16 posts
I just re-read the email sent out to the managers again. just to clarify: there were 61 teams in the tourney x $525 entry fee = $32,000 taken in roughly, I think the women's teams and 35 and 40 age brackets paid less in entry fees, so lets say $30,000 taken in. no games were played, no games in fact were actually started. I agree with the post above I think RB wanted to start the tourney then cancel it and pocket all the money, talk around town seemed to verify this conclusion as many managers and players were very upset about wasting time and money and stated "he just wants the rain to stop long enough so he gets the cash." RB has decided to keep $225 from each team entered and he will apply that as a credit to the teams that are willing to play in the make up event in Manassas in April as a one day 3 game guarantee event, he states that he will give out the awards and such that day and of course sell you a 6 month old out of date tee shirt for retail price. the kicker is he wants another $100 to enter that event, so he is keeping the teams money for 6 months and applying a credit towards another event? my question is if a team doesn't attend the make up do they get their money back or does he keep it without a refund? meanwhile collecting interest on it for 6 months. the other $300 that's left over from the Virginia Beach entry fee, he is going apply as a credit to the teams for a future event as long as they use it before October 2014. once again do the teams get a refund if they decide not to play in another one of his events? and now it could be a year collecting interest on our money. sounds like it could be illegal to me and maybe a class action civil lawsuit brewing, all teams have to do is band together and start complaining. funny thing is in the email it mentioned that they discussed this with numerous team managers and this is the solution that was come up with and agreed upon, really? are you kidding me? who are the idiot managers agreeing to this? he sure as heck didn't call our team, sad state of senior softball when this kind of stuff happens, I have run numerous tournaments in the past, when an event gets rained out, you refund the entry fee monies to the teams, you eat the cost of the trophies and tee shirts and move forward to the next event, that's why you never put dates on trophies or tee shirts, lol, but if he is holding a make up event and giving out those things he isn't losing money on them is he? he can still use the softballs he purchased for the event and i'm sure he didn't pay any umpires in advance and if he did pay for the fields in advance I would hope the parks and rec department of va beach would offer him some kind of discount or refund towards next year as good faith. so when teams win his make up event in april, they will proudly be displaying 6 month old tee shirts and plaques after traveling many hours for a 1 day tourney, which will end up as 2 nites in a hotel, plus food and travel expenses, that's another $500 per player on top of the $500 they spent for va beach, my kind of value, $1000 for out of date awards and tee shirts, awesome, he should give those tee shirts away that day to everybody that plays plus the spectators, he says he has 600 of them, that would be a good start in rebuilding a relationship with his teams again. peace out hope 2014 brings better things in senior softball, wonder if he will read this and respond or at least consider doing the right thing here, rain checks in softball, now that's a first, what's next? a "lay away" plan where you can pay $50 a month until you have enough saved to enter an event? guaranteed if you owed him money he wouldn't be happy if you told him "we will pay you at the next tournament, 6 months from now in april or before October 2014"
Oct. 18, 2013
Dave m
5 posts
We were lucky only a 5 hour drive.There are plenty of other options they could have offered rather than just keep our money.
How about keep $300, refund the rest and give a free entry to a 2014 tournament.
Give the team a choice, keep all $525 and give us two free entries for next summer. My point is there are choices avaialble to make people happy.
When an organization (ISSA) runs a for profit venture and for circumstances beyond everyone`s control results in a financial loss for them that`s part of the risk running a for profit enterprise.
Oct. 18, 2013
modi
16 posts
he isn't going to give you a free tournament entry for $225 or $300 when he normally charges $525 for an event. so that's out of the equation, he should just refund the money and start fresh at the next event, there is no need to keep any of the money that teams paid him. he assumes all risks when he holds an event, he shouldn't put that risk back onto the teams, he should deal with it in a professional manner, the teams take their own risk by paying for airfare, hotels, ground transportation, food and lodging, he needs to understand that everybody loses when weather cancels an event, for him to put it back on the teams, sponsors and players is shameful, it's not like when he holds a successful event with 60 teams and takes in $30,000 that he gives back to the teams and players some of the profit he makes, another stupid thing he does is give out an all tourney team plaque to every team, so if you go zero wins and 4 loses somebody on your team will get all tourney team award, really? like who on that team deserves an award? how about just giving those awards out to the top place finishing teams i'm sure there are more guys on those teams that deserve an award that won't get one
"to god be the glory" more like "to RB be the money"
Oct. 18, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
And some people wonder why SSUSA holds the World Tournament in Las Vegas or Phoenix? Come west, no rain out here!
Oct. 18, 2013
Marv19
Men's 60
429 posts
I have no dog in this hunt but there may be extenuating circumstances you may have to consider. From my perspective let’s use Temecula for an example. As with all my venues I have a deposit on file. In Temecula its $1250. This is their insurance for me canceling a tournament inside 30 days of the event. They keep it... no if’s and’s or butts. AND I loose that date for the following year. Inside 30 days the city is the only one that can cancel a tournament without impunity. In your example I'm surprised the park didn't cancel the event purely from the standpoint the dirt had to be wet days before. Most if not all park people don't want you walking on damp dirt. It creates klods that don't dry out right away to a point that they break up. One of my biggest fears is a rain on Friday. Even light depending on ambient temps may not dry out overnight. Worse yet is rain on Thursday and no sun on Friday. Its bad no matter what cus you have guys getting no refunds on rooms that they paid in advance and so on. BUT my point is the park people, not me, are who has control over whether or not a tournament goes on days prior to the event. NOW if once a tournament starts its like the Pottery Barn. “You break it you own it”. Once the tournament starts I owe for both days. If it rains and play is suspended I don't get a refund on my money. Its just the way it is. They have rented me the fields and had part time employees they paid to work that weekend. Plus again in my case I have to pay umpires if they show up. They came to work and expect to be paid. So I understand your frustration but the other parts of the equation have to be considered. Not every circumstance is black and white. In any event good luck with this.
Oct. 18, 2013
modi
16 posts
it rained all day Thursday down there, all of Thursday night, all day Friday, all of Friday night, all day on Saturday until 1pm when skies started to clear by which time they had canceled the event at 10am that Saturday morning, I even believe it rained on the Wednesday prior to the event, the forecast also showed the storm wrapping back around for Saturday night and back into sunday
no way was this event going to be played, somebody dropped the ball that's for sure, the city told issa the fields were unplayable and they couldn't be used, half of the event was canceled on Friday sending some of the age divisions home, the remainder of the event was canceled on Saturday morning, so if the city says "no play" I assume they money was refunded or credited towards next year? in any case it's not the teams or players fault and they should not be responsible for paying the costs, without the players you have nothing, something to remember for those running events
Oct. 18, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
mmm if i pay for a product i expect to rcvd it....if not give my money back,not some stupid half credit....i want my money back for services non-rendered...thats it.....not my fault you can't run your business,weather or not.......
Oct. 18, 2013
Paco13
363 posts
bkb555, That is correct as of Tuesday of that week by Wednesday the forecast if I recalled correct was 90% Friday, 80 or 90 on Sat and about 70-80 on Sunday. I recalled calling my coach and telling him not to come that it was going to rain. I can not be certain but I could almost put money on it that the VA Beach Parks a Rec cancelled everything by Thursday, they are extremely protective of the PA Park complex. Bottom line, keeping money for services or supplies not received is wrong at any level.

PR NINJA OUT

JESUS TE AMA
Oct. 18, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4314 posts
Not sure if this ISSA assn's rules are but to get a possible clue, look at SSUSA's rule on page 56.
It's been known to happen where you do not get anything refunded if no games were played but I for one would not go back there should that happen.
Might be worth getting the Farmers Almanac for research on weather for the different areas. They are pretty accurate to date. But weather has been changing too. Normally we have had rain here and none for over a month.
Oct. 19, 2013
bkb555
87 posts
I had contact with a director in the Syracuse area and how it is when he runs a tourney....a lot of the parks demand a deposit for the fields which is usually non refunded rain or shine...I get that part....BUT, if the fields cost so much to rent plus workers trying to get fields ready, does it come to the amount of $225 per team????

Sure, they get a "refund" for the next tourney but still have to add another $100 entry fee and travel expenses for all the players

as for shirts and hats and plaques, THAT is a huge mistake getting stuff dated etc....and if the stuff was paid for why wasn't the merchandise given out to the teams that showed up...who wants a Oct 2013 shirt or hat given to them in April 2014????

anyway, this is truly a learning experience for everyone involved.....I believe the director is somehow getting all our money though because we will not be going back in April...and who knows, maybe not in Oct 2014 either...it was a great tourney last year but this year was forgettable in all aspects.....

I believe the Director should reconsider his initial decision and refund at least 75% of the entry fees CASH to all teams ...let the teams decide if they want a 3 day tourney in Manassas next year and go from there....if the Park wants to charge him for fields we never used, then maybe another venue should be chosen next year....to be paid for services not rendered just doesn't go over too well in today's world..I could see if the teams backed out and the field lost 3 or 4 days to not having any business but NOBODY used the fields........who made out there????
Oct. 20, 2013
Drew
Men's 55
1 posts
They should take out event insurance to cover there lose if they cancel so teams do not get screwed
Oct. 21, 2013
STL0
31 posts
I don't have a dog in the fight for this but my opinion is that if ISSA expects you to share in the loss from ancillary items like t-shirts, then you should also be able to share in the profit. It can't be a one a way deal. No business works like that. If you share the risk of loss, you should also share the risk for the reward. So if they expect you to pay money when they can't sell shirts or have other expenses that they cover, then a portion of the profit (when they make it)should go to reduce fees for taking part in the tournament when it makes money. That of course would never happen.

I'd like to be in a business where profit is guaranteed but haven't found it yet. Maybe it's time to start running tourneys.
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