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Discussion: STAFF question on scoring of runs

Posted Discussion
Oct. 28, 2013
B.J.
44 posts
STAFF question on scoring of runs
I was going over rule 5.7 SCORING OF RUNS....B No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of ...... 2.A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner crossing the scoring line. My question is the 2nd part of the rule....No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of a live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner crossing the scoring line. Can you give me a scenario where this would come into effect. In every appeal I have ever had it has always been after the ball was in the infield and under control with no play being made on a runner. I have never allowed an appeal when a runner is still advancing to another base. Thx for your help.
Oct. 28, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1163 posts
Here's one easy scenario: One out ... Runners on 1st and 2nd ... Fly ball to RF caught ... Runner on 2nd legally tags up and takes off ... Runner on 1st takes off without tagging, but realizes and starts back to 1st ... Defensive player yells out: "Ump, he didn't tag at 1st!" ... Throws behind the runner from 1st and gets the call before lead runner crosses scoring line ... Third out, no run scores ...


Oct. 29, 2013
B.J.
44 posts
thx for your response, but I dont really consider that a true appeal play... even with out the fielder yelling out, if the runner realized he did not tag up and while attempting to return to the 1st base bag he is called out because the ball beat him back the run still would not score... if the other runner did not pass the scoring line....correct? I guess what I'm asking is if no fielder yelled out the result would be the same so how is it considered an appeal play? Thx again
Oct. 29, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1163 posts
A runner shall be called out, after a successful live ball appeal, if he:

• failed to tag up on a batted ball caught in-flight,
• failed to touch a base the last time he passed it, or
• failed to touch all previous bases in order

To properly execute a live ball appeal, a fielder must, with a live ball, tag the runner or base in question and communicate to the umpire what the infraction was and which runner committed the infraction. Such communication may be non-verbal, implicit, or assumed—so long as the intent of the fielder is clear to the umpire.

Dec. 19, 2013
txnighttrain
16 posts
On the other hand, if the legally tagged runner crosses the scoring line before the out at first, then run scores. This is not a force out situation. I had to protest a call at a tournament because the umpire called that nearly same type situation a force out when we had runners at 1st and 3rd. I was on third and tagged and scored long before they got the ball to first to record the out on the runner failing to tag. The right fielder had caught the ball and decided to walk to first and make the out. I had crossed the scoring line and was talking to the unpire long beofre the out at first was recorded. I won the protest and my run counted.
Dec. 20, 2013
stick8
1268 posts
B.J. the scenario SSUSA staff posted indicates the defensive team is appealing to the umpire that the runner on first never tagged up on the fly ball. In a league game I was umpiring earlier this year one play had runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to deep left center. Catch is made, 2 outs. Runner at third scores--good tag. Runner at second does a double tag but I noticed he left way early. Throw comes in to the shortstop who bobbles it then picks it up and throws home late. Secondbaseman is screaming the runner at second left early. The ball is then thrown to second who steps on the bag. I have an out but the run at third scores. That is an example live ball appeal.
Dec. 27, 2013
B.J.
44 posts
stick8 i agree with your scenario...read my OP below...and as I answered the STAFF response. That scenario they gave is not an actual appeal play the defense made a play on a runner who had not tagged that is considered a force out if the ball beats runner back to bag... just like a line drive in the infield...if a fileder throws a caught line drive back to the bag that a runner had left the runner is out...NO APPEAL NEEDED... I asked for an scenario when the run WOULD NOT SCORE...OP... My question is the 2nd part of the rule 5.7 ....No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of a live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner crossing the scoring line. when could this happen???
Dec. 27, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1163 posts
B.J. - You apparently, despite a very clear explanation above, do not understand the definition of a Live Ball Appeal ("LBA") ... Here is your fundamental error, in your own words: "...That scenario they gave is not an actual appeal play the defense made a play on a runner who had not tagged that is considered a force out if the ball beats runner back to bag..." [emphasis added]

The act of the defense throwing behind a retreating base runner who has failed to tag up is NOT a force play under ANY circumstances ... A force play occurs ONLY when a runner is "forced" to advance to the next base ... Returning to a previous base to tag up has the runner retreating and NOT advancing and, therefore by definition, is NOT a force play ... This is a very common misconception by many people, including you ... Please re-read the definition of an LBA and banish the term and concept of "force play" from your mind when you do so ...

The run(s) never score when the final out of a ½-inning at bat is a force out ... An LBA is NOT a force out, so the timing sequence of its execution by the defense, and the resultant out call by the umpire, becomes a timing play call ...If the run(s) cross home plate/scoring line before the play concludes that results in the out call on the LBA, they ARE counted ... If the run(s) cross home plate/scoring line after the play concludes that results in the out call on the LBA, the run(s) are NOT counted ...

This isn't that tough once the fundamental concept that an LBA has nothing to do with a force out is understood ...

Dec. 27, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
great explanation Staff!
Dec. 28, 2013
ShaneV
Men's 55
381 posts
This might help, let's say same scenario as above, runner from 1st who did not
tag properly does not retreat, but is standing on 2nd. Infielder calls to
umpire (or doesn't - implied) and tags the runner on 2nd before lead runner crosses the scoring line. Umpire calls runner standing on 2nd out, and run
does not score.

ShaneV
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