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Discussion: SSUSA shares DBO rationale Senior

Posted Discussion
Jan. 4, 2014
Perl
86 posts
SSUSA shares DBO rationale Senior
In the latest Senior Softball News letter SSUSA shared thier reasons for the DBO.

1. Shorten the "chasm" between divisions, expecially Major and Major+. This will allow teams to move up and be competitive.

2. To have Senior players have DBO to mirror the rule used by Team USA, the best (young) players in the world.

3.DBO will discourage "home run only" game of hitting as many HRs as possible . Thoughts are DBO will emphasize putting the ball in play and playing defense.

Fanally the board feels the DBO will restore some balance between offense and defense.



Jan. 4, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1008 posts
The complete unabridged article, as it appears in the Senior Softball News, has been available as the third post in the Rules Committee Priority message thread above since December 20th ... It also contains a link to the actual Rulebook Amendments for each affected rules section ...
Jan. 4, 2014
Downs
49 posts
SSUSA STAFF: Can you please provide a clarification regarding the new home run rule? In the News Letter, there is a stated minor change to the rule that had not surfaced in any prior SSUSA communications. There is a statement indicating a "HIT & SIT" modification that is now approved. In other words, it appears that this change permits the batter to watch the ball clear the fence, and return to the dugout, no longer being required to advance to first base? I have no problem with such a rule. However, just how does it now impact any base runners when there is an over the fence HR?

1. Are the on-base runners still required to "ADVANCE ONE BASE", or called out?

2. If "one" of the base runners elects to run all the bases, is he/she out for
passing a base runner that elects not to run all the bases?

3. If the batter elects to run to first base, is he/she required to continue on to
run all the bases accordingly?

4. If the batter elects to run the bases on an over the fence HR, is he/she out for
passing one of the base runners that does not continue to run all the bases? I
witnessed this call in championship play in the past?

5. Are all the runners (batter & base runners) still to be CALLED OUT for any
violation of the base running rules, such as stepping on or over the strike mat or
batters box?

STAFF: thanking you in advance for your clarifications as our local league adopts all SSUSA rules that are not modified for local play and we need to be assured of the specific interpretations and applications. Thanks again. Jim Downs - Seattle
Jan. 4, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1008 posts
Our initial reaction to each of your five questions is: "NO" ... The rationale is that an over the fence HR is a dead ball, per Rulebook §9.1 I. - DEAD BALL at page 50 -

The ball is dead and not in play:
.
.
I. When the ball is outside the playing limits of the playing field. A ball is considered "out of play" when it touches the ground, person on the ground or object outside the playing area...


We believe that once the HR ball lands out of the park, it's a dead ball situation, and unless it is a REALLY towering shot, most, if not all of the hypothetical situations you describe aren't likely of having enough time to happen before the ball is dead (i.e., comes down). After the ball is dead, none of the transgressions listed would would have any effect.

Lastly, the language of the actual rule amendment does allow on-base runners to return directly to the dugout without advancing an additional base.

Jan. 4, 2014
Downs
49 posts
SSUSA STAFF: Thanks for your expeditious response. In each instance your response makes a lot of sense and in fact reflects no change in the HR rules as they previously existed, other than the DBO and HR limits.

The problem I had in trying to understand the intent as worded in your News Letter, is that the statement made seems to stand alone and is neither tied to HR's or DBO's. In a completely separate paragraph, it states: "In a minor related rule change, SSUSA has now allowed for the practice of "hit and sit" following "ANY" over-the-fence home run. It does not specify additional HR's over the allotted maximum or a DBO. It does, in my personal opinion, add much more confusion than would exist if that particular statement had not been included as it refers to a minor related rule change. Anyway, seems the "hit and sit" intent is specifically related only to the DBO. Sure hope I'm right this time. Again, thanks for the clarification.
Jan. 5, 2014
PattyMac
95 posts
Perl,

thanks for the highlights from the newsletter.

1. if one of the reasons is to shorten the chasm then why not just make one division???

2. seniors do not have the reaction times of guys 30 years younger than we are. balls being hit down hard are going to increase injuries to players especially pitchers hence the new rule that pitchers must wear a mask. the young guys are better equipped to protect themselves. Ask any of the young pitchers why they wear a mask and they will tell you after the hrs are gone then the middle is open.

3. DBO will discourage hrs and will .encourage balls hit down and hard by a lot of players who hit the ball really hard!!

In closing the Senior game is not the same game that is played by the younger players. They all play 5 infielders, rarely seen in senior ball. they hit stadium balls. Also the young guys will tell you that their favorite tourney is the Smoky Moutain, as they can hit all hrs they want, no DBO's, just softball.

I'm just saying.

PattyMac
Jan. 5, 2014
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Thoughts comments and observations and suggestions on the lack of logic and consistency in justification of the DBO rule.

The DBO rule does nothing to emphasize defense. IN fact it can be argued it does just the opposite. A team being awarded an out for NOT making a play is not more defense. That’s like saying the 5 run rule emphasizes defense. In fact its conceivable a team can win a game without ever recording and out. Think about it. A team gives up 5 every inning then in the open inning they watch 3 balls hit over the fence for DBO’s. That’s not defense.

Suggestion- If they want to emphasize defense expand the runs per inning from 5 to 9 at ALL levels. Then when you make an error it hurts.

Another question- when giving an equalizer of 5 runs without allowing the plus team to even have a chance to stop those awarded runs- how does that emphasize defense? Perhaps the weaker team should always have to use the extra fielder.

If they want to narrow the gap (I believe the real reason for the rule) between plus and major by further restricting the more skilled plus players then are we to assume that they will be moving quite a few major teams up? How many major teams is SSUSA going to bump now because of the dumbing down of plus?

Finally- I believe the real problem is the Rock ball being used in Vegas. The ball just fly’s there and is too lively for that venue. If plus players hit that ball down it is a recipe for disaster- there won’t be more plays made by defense- just more injuries- to fielders and base runners alike. Change the ball in Vegas- not the rule. Just a suggestion.
Jan. 6, 2014
southernson
250 posts
There is a corequisite relationship between the home run DBO rule and rule change which requires the pitcher to wear a mask. And that is a bad thing for the game.....

IMO, rule changes to the game to solve division issues that SSUSA created and has full control over are a band aid for the symptom, rather than a solution for the problem with the Major Plus division.

There has to be a better way....


Jan. 6, 2014
tg69
295 posts
If all seniors reaction time is that bad or slow, maybe all ground balls should be an out.Then play eight outfielders.Golf or badmitten might be more suitable.
Jan. 6, 2014
Perl
86 posts
DBO generated the most responses on this board I can remember. Obviously brought out some compassionate disscussion and opinions. Will this be good for the game or not? Time will tell.

SSUSA says since Team USA (best young players) use DBO so seniors should have DBO. Team USA doesn't play 5 runs an inning or have mandatory face mask rule so why should seniors if SSUSA wants to mirror the young game?

Safety takes a back seat with DBO. When HRs are gone big boys are forced to hit the ball down. They aren't going to poke it around they are going to drive missles through holes. You can count on more pitcher/infielder injuries.

DBO is the rule. Like it or not we all still love this game and should be greatful to the SSUSA, SPA, ISSA, and other organizations for giving us a place to play.

Play Ball



Jan. 6, 2014
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Staff, you didn't address the question Downs put fourth... kinda just cut him off.

PattyMac, I visited the Smokey site and there is some interesting figures there... Should be a great place to play a tournament.

Seems as though 'staff' wants to relive the past or regress to maybe it could have been times. The teams in USA etc (they wanna be like) are not seniors but basically paid players which is not allowed here supposedly, but some know better. Another rule that will likely go away after a bit..''hit & sit''...
Seems there is always a new rule now that comes and then goes over the last few years. Softball dementia I guess, lol.
As we age you should get more out of the game but yet they take it away from tho older guys.

Mango, some good points.
Southernson, Its rewording of same old songs of the past with emphasis game restricting time. Something like shorter games = more game times + more team slots ='s more $$$. And the snowball keeps on rolling.

Jan. 6, 2014
DOLFAN
22 posts
Now I know why!!!!

I have been disagreeing with most of you guys about the DBO not being a bad rule and you guys just wont give in and adapt to the new rule...why???

It just occured to me.....Most of you are over 60 which makes you "Hippies" and you have always challenged "The Man" on everything during your lives!!...lol

Stay young Boys..never trust "the man", that what my Aunt always told me when I was 8 (I'm 52 now)..she also taught me the song "Hey Jude" and fed me Veggie burgers made from beans and rice or soy whole grain hamburger buns are both healthy and within the theme.

Ah Yes..Good times!! Stay young my friends!!

P.S. The DBO is a good rule..and I hit BOMBS!!!

Jan. 6, 2014
neck10
476 posts
if you want guys not to duck to lower classes then have a dbo for AA,AAA,& major then let the major plus either hit all they can or set a limit of 20 then walks its not fair for patty mac to try to hit with leo osterday if you take away the biggest part of his game (the long ball)
Jan. 6, 2014
Turbo 34
Men's 50
10 posts
Dolfan hits BOMBS! He likes DBO. Has he ever seen a player face down in the dirt in a pool of his own blood? What do you call a bomb Dolfan? Do you play major or major plus? Did you play in Vegas? Just wondering because I've never played with a big time bomb dropper that wants DBO's! Have you ever played in the Smoky Mountain Classic? Most the BOMB droppers I know played in the Grand Daddy of all tournaments. If SSUSA wanted to speed up the game they should have let teams play ELEVEN on defense. With balls over the fence after the limit a walk/ single that would greatly increase the double plays. Hey Dolfan, has the opposing pitcher ever intentionally walked you after the limit was up in DBO because they were afraid you might accidentally hit them?
Jan. 6, 2014
DOLFAN
22 posts
@ Turbo...been playing ball my whole life!! I have been playing senior ball the last 3 years, the last 2 playing Major

I don't have a problem with it. I played in a Major tourny a few months back and a team hit 21 HR's eeeeeer I mean Walks in the 7th inning...It was boring!!!!

I'm tired of hearing people whining about HR's being DBO. Dudes who are whining probably didn't hit HR's back in the day with the Gray 34 ounce Easton everyone used. It was an accomplishment when we went yard with that relic and I hit plenty. I bet over 75% of dudes hitting HR's in Senior Softball are probably for the first time and never did it at any level, including Little League.

These Bats are stupid. I say that the 40's and 50's shouldn't even use senior bats at all. 55 and above should be the only ones allowed to use them..

And one last thing, if ANYONE has to shave a senior bat, YOUR WEAK and are a CHEATER!!!

Just sayin!!!!

Jan. 6, 2014
PattyMac
95 posts
Turbo,

I agree with you, never played with a bomb dropper who wanted or liked the DBO.

Dolfan,

Expressing and opinion is not whining. Most of the guys I play with were bomb hitters in their younger years. Don't hit as many now as I used to but still like to swing away..

When I started senior ball we used aluminum bats and good balls. Wish we could go back to that.

Just wish the powers to be would have surveyed the players before making such a big change in the rules.

I have played softball since 1970 and a homerun has always been a big part of the game even with wood bats.

PattyMac
Jan. 6, 2014
DOLFAN
22 posts
PattyMac,

Love your quote "When I started senior ball we used aluminum bats and good balls. Wish we could go back to that". So do I brother, so do I...then we would see who the real hitters are!!

Oh and I do definitley love to hit Bombs!!!

Timmy D aka Dolfan

Jan. 6, 2014
PattyMac
95 posts
Dolfan,

If you love to hit them then why do you love the new rule??

What team do you play with??

PattyMac aka PattyMac
Jan. 6, 2014
DOLFAN
22 posts
PattyMac,

We get to hit 6, thats plenty for a team IMO...

I play for a new Major Team called So Ca Vandals

Timmy D
Jan. 6, 2014
Turbo 34
Men's 50
10 posts
Guess Dolfan has never hit seven in one game and would love to get eight!!!
Jan. 6, 2014
DOLFAN
22 posts
I saw 17 and 21 hit in one inning, not 7 in one game by one person!!! I hit 4 in one game and it felt good :-)
Jan. 6, 2014
Turbo 34
Men's 50
10 posts
Scored 80 in three innings. Had 34 runs in the first inning. Was 4-4 with 4 in one inning. Ended up 10-10 with seven. It was the SEAA One Pitch State.
Jan. 6, 2014
JamesLG
295 posts


I play 60 Major and I don't think the new rule will have much effect of the outcome of most of our games as long as we are playing another 60 Major team. We often play 50 Major and 55 Major teams and that is where I believe we are going to see additional injuries as a result of the rule. I play 3rd base and when a younger team with a lot of power starts hitting down on the ball it will not be a lot of fun over at the hot corner. The lefties will also be pounding the 1st baseman. In the smaller tourneys where it is very common to play teams out of your division the folks in charge should seriously consider using the upper team HR rule.

Thanks:

James
Jan. 6, 2014
DOLFAN
22 posts
Turbo...you think thats fun????????? The game has turned into a circus at that point!!
NO WAY and NO THANK YOU!!!
Jan. 6, 2014
Turbo 34
Men's 50
10 posts
That was with Worth PST and ESTs. The other team asked the ump with could go one more inning to see if we could get 100. It was the Championship game 80-29. If it wasn't fun the other team wouldn't have wanted to see 100. The ump said no even though it was only 2:30. They even told him they wouldn't bat in the bottom. That ump was a kill joy just like players that want DBO.
Jan. 6, 2014
JamesLG
295 posts

I missed the mark on part of my last post. I believe if you are tallented enough to play M+ you should have unlimited HR's.

Thanks:

James
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