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Discussion: Wish we could put the illegal bat doctoring talk to rest

Posted Discussion
Oct. 16, 2006
stanley
Men's 60
15 posts
Wish we could put the illegal bat doctoring talk to rest
I am not on the board that often and Not that I don\'t think its bad but this board has so much more it could provide, I wish we could also try to focus on something besides the 1% or less of seniors that use an illegal bat. I really don\'t think any bat I have swung beats a U2. I don\'t think a shaved bat of USSSA or ASA can be as good with all the altering in the world. Even so, an altered bat doesn\'t replace technique. 99% of the guys here are clean, so lets get some positive talk like tourney changes, consolidating some of the senior classes so the major plus\'s have more teams, centrally locating the worlds, adding mvp, offensive and defensive awards at worlds.
Let the bat manufacturers put tamperproof caps, bigger end knobs, microchips inside, if associations bitch enough, perhaps this will come to pass and make the doctoring
too hard to do. Lets get some talk of getting more non US teams into the world tournament and maybe getting senior softball into the Olympics. Maybe even Fran for our next president.
Oct. 16, 2006
smooth01
Men's 50
120 posts
I agree, if the truth was known , the people that post about it the most ,have the most to hide
Oct. 16, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
STANLEY: The SENIOR COMBAT, is hotter than a U 11.
I saw may bats painted the past 4 wks. FREAKS, FREAK PLUS, SYNERGY'S, ETC.

During the past yr, ISA, has taken many bats. At one event, a certain Easton Sponsed team, had all of their New In Wrapper bats confiscated. At one World, 3 bats tested out @ 1.9, 2.x, & 3.x BPF. Well, anything over 1.20 BPF, is ILLEGAL.

If, my memory, is correct, 2 yrs ago, in Ft Myers, 30 or was it 60 bats got CONFISCATED.

U-TRIP over 35 WORLD in Vegas. A mim. of 3 bats were ILLEGAL, & the UMP's, had no clue.

NSAF, Upper & Lower, I saw several pro's w/ their New & old bats. 6 brand New FREAKS. 6-8 COMBATS, w/ no ASA, ISA, NSA, or Official Softball stamps on these bats.

Palm Springs, we saw 20, almost New FREAKS. During that month, if, one went on E-BAY, painted U-11s, were selling for $ 400. If, u do not believe me, go on line & ck. out E-BAY. C what FREAKS, were sell' 4! $ 450 to $ 600.

Teams from all over r bring' ILLEGAL bats to TOURNAMENTS. This com' wk in Palm Springs, is the COP WORLDS. Many teams r sponser by EASTON, MIKEN, ETC. One cop team, has several ILLEGASL bats & is in the process of play' MIKEN & EASTON, to c which BAT COMPANY, will sent the hottest bat. Last yr, during the H.R. hit' contest, players were us' ILLEGAL bats. this came from many COPS. (( I WAS THERE LAUGHT'.))

I wish it was only 1%. I know, that in Vegas, we have 4 or more bat doctors. Texas, Florida, Califorina, Ohio, all have their share. Where their r lots of Machine Shops, u will find a BAT DOCTOR. Several Calif, teams have told me DUR' the last yr, that they can get a shaved bat, w/ a titanium sleeve, end loaded for $200.

SENIOR SOFTBALL needs Test' Machines, like the ones ISA, have brought. ISA, is not a Test' Lab. I got an E-MAIL, that told me, that ISA, wanted to test bats used in ISA EVENTS.

ALTERED BATS are one thing, but, an ILLEGAL BATS, is another matter. SHAVING, END LOAD', & install' a TITANIUM SLEEVE, will greatly increase distance. Create a higher BBS.

Good Luck Stan.............. The STONEMAN

SMOOTH01: Come to the gym w/ me. Hit balls w/ me when it is 115 or hotter. Any time u want to use my bat, just ask. How, about u E-MAIL' :viperfx@cox.net
This man works 4 one of the big 3. He do a better job, w/ facts on ILLEGAL BATS, etc.

NOTHING PERSONNAL. This subject has made me sick.
Oct. 17, 2006
Tater50
333 posts
Stanley; Smooth 01: you have right to your opinion & that is what this board is about, to let off steam or discuss matters that affect SS. So, if you have a subject, let it out, we want to hear from you.

In regards to my personal bats; if you are anywhere close to Atlanta, Ga., I will gladly meet you anywhere for you to swing my bats. I have only used the V-1 since 02'. Since these are scarce, I will limit you to 10-15 swings. I have an M7120 & a Vexxum, but I bought them because the V-1 can hardly be found in the 30 oz range.

I have nothing to hide, just trying to get people to think of the damage that they could cause if they hit someone with an altered bat.

Tater50
John W. Hayes
allworld84@aol.com
Oct. 17, 2006
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
STONEMAN...........I see all this talk about painted U2's being dangerous, yet you and others speak of the Senior Combat being hotter than the U2. How can a bat that is hotter than the dangerous U2 be allowed in Senior Softball? Did someone pay to have this bat approved?
Oct. 17, 2006
tank13
9 posts
I just turned 50 and still play alot of open ball in the south, I hit with some of the players in the Pensacola area and they Just laugh about some of the post on illegal bats that some of the senior holy roller talk about on this board I myself do not need one being 6'6 285 I still swing a Easton + and it so hot I don't want to lay it down to swing a Ultra II. they talk about this Tater Player that his game really fell off when they got on to him about his bat and now he is a basehiter instead of the bid power hitter he once was after this bat issue came up. Now it is hard for anyone around wanting to play with him on there team. With all of this talk and focus on bats make one wonder if you want to play senior ball or just retire form softball. Like I said I am new to this and I agree with Stanley the focus should be on SOFTBALL and let the Higher ups and TD'sand even the Umpires enforce the rules and make them, and the players play ball
Tank13
Dothan ALA
Oct. 17, 2006
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2581 posts
Ok Stanley, let's start with doing away with the AA rankings. While in Vegas I was talking to a guy from Michigan that was playing on a AA team. He was a big guy, 6' and probable 220. He told me that he and most of his teammates used to play class A and B. I asked him how they were able to play AA and he said that this was the only tournament they played in every year and this is what other teams in their league do. He also said the most of his teammates had hr power but they concentrate on hitting the ball down.
The last time that I checked their brackets they had lost one game. I don't know how they finished but I would guess in the top three.
Am I wrong thinking that a AA team should be the rec type team?
I believe the Summit Associations should do away with the AA rating and then later do away with one more division.
How about combining the 50's and 55's? I was told the at the Pensacola tournament 10 days ago they combined the 50's and 55's. Maybe that's the "shape of things to come".
Oct. 17, 2006
tank13
9 posts
Thsi is what I'm talking about talk softball Bruce in Ga. seem to have the right idea. maybe we can have some imput on this topic from other player to make it a better tournament that people wants to go play.
Tank13
Oct. 17, 2006
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
Bruce
This is something that need to be looked at close, Maybe Terry and Ridge will look at this. The tourney in Pensacola where the 55 and 50 was combo it was the 55 Major and AAA and the 50's AAA playing the AAA rules. If there have been a real Major + team there the combo would not have worked out. you would have to combo the Major + 50 and 55's The biggest thing is the Defense that was the biggest different not the Offense in Pensacola with the short fences.you had to make sure you give any of your outs away.
Don
Oct. 17, 2006
stanley
Men's 60
15 posts
Bruce, I know your a very good 55 player but I think that the ages should stay as they are. I don't see a 58 year old playing with some of the studs at 50 as a generalization. I would like to see a realignment of team categories. I personally think there should be only 3 classes. AA, AAA and Major. A player list of those who are all world and all nationals could be developed and from that you could possilbly see who is trying to sandbag and restrict loading up of these calibur players on anything but major teams.
To have so many classes seems like the lower ones have full brackets and nobody wants to play Major plus.
Oct. 17, 2006
E. Ness
122 posts
I agree with you guys on these classification things and to me the sandbagging in senior softball is worst than the illegal bat problem but haven't the regional rules caused some of this?

You have major plus players playing major or AAA because of the regional rules. Then major and AAA players fall down a level to where the AA is now playing against players that belong at high levels. If you want to stop some of this then allow the major plus teams to pick up a player of two from across the country especially those who only have AAA and AA teams in their region.

The association should classify players but they should also allow those players who are in a class where there are no teams in their class a chance to pick one team in the county and play for that team alone.
Oct. 17, 2006
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
Stanley
I believe you are correct on the 58 not wanting to play the 50 year old. the different in the 50 and 55 is defense most 55's can hit with the 50's when the 55's go to the field you just don't get to some of the same balls you caught when you was 50. then you have to keep in mind a player just turning 50 and a player 58 or 59 your legs are not the same on the averge player. There are some player like Bruce that can play down but most of them because of their hitting and very few at the Major + level for their defense. Maybe start rating the players and not the teams in some manner so sandbagging will not take place. they have some rules in place but there alway a way arournd them.
Don Ward
Kayson 55'
Oct. 17, 2006
Tater50
333 posts
Tank13: Here is your quote; “they talk about this Tater Player that his game really fell off when they got on to him about his bat and now he is a basehiter instead of the bid power hitter he once was after this bat issue came up. Now it is hard for anyone around wanting to play with him on there team”.

There are always two sides to a story. I do not know you, but if you are going to crush me on a National site; then you should at least have played with me or have talked to me via e-mail or phone; thereby giving your personal opinion.

Your insinuation is that the people that you talked to indicated that I have allegedly used illegal bats. I am not going to stoop to that level of calling players names. Any player that I know that I have had any differences of opinion; I sent them an e-mail or personally talked to them on the phone. You can take a jab at me if you wish; but it does not make anything that “they” say the fact.

I reiterate: I do not use altered, shaved, rolled, painted, or any such thing in bats. Every All-Tourney Trophy that I have won has been with a LEGAL bat. I can substantiate that even in 05’ with two bad legs that I still hit .761 with an average of a HR per 4.86 AB; that is not my “game falling off” (this is according to the coaches manifest).

I underwent another knee surgery in 12/05’. Name calling about someone you do not know at all is very weak. Hope to meet you some day & you can swing the same type bat that I have used since 2002. I do not mind. Welcome to Senior Softball; whomever you are. Remember the guys that are talking about me to you, when you walk off, just might be talking about you to others. My identification is below.

Tater50
John W. Hayes
JAH Masters
Oct. 18, 2006
tank13
9 posts
tator 50
Good to put a name with the name tator. sorry to hear that you was injury last the boys down south didn't say that the reason your power drop off was because of a injury. They was talking so much about the bat and nothing else. They just said it was so hot that they could not think it was legal. If you say it is I believe you I don't know you yet but you sound like a very different type of person that take his softball first and everything else second. Look forward in meeting you maybe this year sometime, Still playing a lot of young ball and not ready for seniors quiet yet. Be nice to go hit a couple hundred balls and see if we can't break a couple bats. If we going to talk HRS and avg in 124 Games last yr I hit .788 and they said 98 hrs but all I care about is if our team wins not STATS stats are for people with egos and nothing to live for, Winning is what it all about, 2nd place is the first loser.
Tank
Oct. 18, 2006
the wood
1071 posts
E Ness - Suggesting that the remedy to sandbagging is to open up the boundaries is akin to protecting the hen house by adding more foxes. Certain people want to sandbag because it gives them a better chance of winning. You've been in Des Moines and seen the sand bagging that happened there... teams playing much less than their best in order to 'drop down' to win the major division rings. Those teams were allowed 3 players from out of the area... major and major +.
This is no different than illegal bats (safety aside) as it's an attempt to slant the playing field. Some of the snow birds are in the same category. I feel that SSWS (Palm Springs, 2006) allowing exemption players to just two teams is a further example of this.
I can speak of several dialogues that I've had with folks where they essentially said that they would 'roll over for a whole weekend' if it meant moving down. I've also seen teams do it... not just in Des Moines.
Perhaps it's time that each of us have to play with just one team for the entire season (or at least in just one class - i.e. major +). When the one 'out of the area' player rule was allowed in 2004, each one of these guys had to sign a statement that they would play with no other teams... no 'rent a player for a weekend' so to speak. But this really only addresses the major + division and the sandbagging mostly occurs in lower divsions.
Tater Man - Did I ever mention to you that I was the next to last person eliminated from dodge ball while in the 5th grade? I can prove it... :-)
Bob Woodroof
San Clemente, CA
Oct. 19, 2006
E. Ness
122 posts
The Wood I understand where you are coming from and that is why I added my last sentence. Each player should be classified and as you said allowed to sign with one team only in the class that they are suppose to play in. Let the Major + teams pick up one player from out of area and that will help.

Safety is an issue here because major + players should not be playing in AAA and Major players should not be playing in AA unless their skill level has drastically changed do to health reasons or something along those lines. To me this is more of a problem than the illegal bats. It seems this type of cheating is ok or overlooked. If we are going to clean the game up and I am all for that then lets clean it up all the way.
Oct. 19, 2006
the wood
1071 posts
Officer Ness: I do not disagree with your point about safety. I do feel, however, that the biggest issue within sandbagging is the loss of competitive balance. While I would like to see rules that prohibit 'team musical chairs', I don't believe that this in itself will solve the total problem.
Secondly, I'd like to see player ratings (major +, major, etc.) and I'd like to see that the assns uphold this. Why should a major + player be allowed to play in a AAA event?... or a major player in a AA event?... or more than one major + player participating in a major event.
If these two points are combined in some manner, perhaps we'd see a level playing field.
I cannot speak to the next point with total certainty as I wasn't there when it happened. But I've read on this board that an Indiana major team becomes a Kentucky AAA team upon occasion (and other examples as well). Rating each player (and enforcing the one team rule) could go a long way to re-establish fairness. We do know that a team might need a couple of players to fill in at times but they shouldn't be allowed to go to a higher ranked team to find them unless it's just one player.
SSWC has had one of these rule in place for some time (the play down rule) and I've seen it being enforced for the most part. Apparently, the biggest problem is when teams move from assn to assn.
Still, when all of the dust settles, there will be other players/teams that prefer to play down in order to win or for other self serving needs.
Oct. 19, 2006
turn2
484 posts
Playing down will never be solved.There are too many divisions (4 in each group is too many). It need to be about 3. Also, i belive the major plus division should be allowed 1 or 2 additional pick ups for all and only major plus teams. Do not let any other teams pick up these 2 out of area players. If you want to pick up out of area players move up to the top division.,

thanks,
jmo
donnie chavis
turn two collectibles
Oct. 19, 2006
Jimmy # 7
28 posts
Follow Ball Player's in response to the illegal bat ISSUE: ALL ASSOCIATION'S SHOULD POST A HALL OF SHAME LIST AT ALL COMPLEX'S: To include PICTURE, SOCIAL SECURITY, DRIVER'S LICENSE #, ADDRESS, STATE, AND TEAM BARRED FROM!!! If the person were to be SHOCKED BACK INTO " I MIGHT NOT GET ENJOY THE GAME OF SOFTBALL OR TO BE ABLE TO PLAY AGAIN"..Maybe that would be ENOUGH!!! BEING ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN---FROM THE STAND'S--Just a idea..
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