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Discussion: IMPORTANT NOTICE

Posted Discussion
Oct. 27, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
IMPORTANT NOTICE
IMPORTANT NOTICE

Please Read Carefully

If any fielder is injured, by a batted ball, and cannot continue further in the game
(his/her manager decision ONLY), the bat used and the ball hit will be removed from the game. Both items will be examined by the Tournament Director or his designees, and either be returned within 1 hour or be kept for further examination/testing and or further action. If either item is kept, statements will be taken from all interested parties coming forward, and the umpire(s) of that game, and submitted with the item(s) in question. Failure to surrender the bat in question will result in the player who used the bat and his/her manager, being ejected from the tournament. There will be NO EXCEPTIONS.
----------------------------------------------------------
Explanation: This type of notice could be placed at the sign in table, and sent with the Managers Tournament Package. Having the Manager make the decision to pull the pitcher, puts the burden on the Manager, not to sacrifice his pitcher for the rest of the game for no good reason. If the bat/ball is found to be changed/altered, then the association would then apply a prescribed action/penalty. There may be some holes in this, but any constructive criticism is welcome. I think that it is now time for all associations to come up with a unified policy on this subject.



Gentleman:

It does not say that the batter comes out with the bat and ball (read first line). The batter and manager leave the game, if the bat is not surrendered. There is not 1 (one) “Home Run Hitter” out there, that hits a home run every time. When they mis-hit the ball, it usually goes as a line drive or a 1 (one) hopper. Both are usually screamers. We can address the altered bat problem by looking at player safety. By putting the likes of this signage in force, puts the batter on notice, that if you do mis-hit the ball, and someone gets hurt, there will be an inspection, so beware. Yes, there will be a game stoppage, but really, how long does it take for the umpire to pick up the bat and call for the ball and to hand them to someone to give to the TD.

I am not trying to be the voice of softball, or putting myself up on stage, and say, “Look at me”, or know more than anybody else. I am just trying to address a problem, and I am asking for input. As in most problems, it takes several stopgap measures to get to the core of the problem. Right now the only ways that I have seen to call attention to an altered bat is: 1) Put up protest money. 2) The bat falls apart at the plate. 3) Someone brags too much. Yes, even the best fielder mis-plays a ball now and then, but again, an action has to be made during the game, not withstanding the fielder’s ability.

Gary:

I am not saying to go along with a bad idea. I am saying to all, put on your thinking caps and come up with a resolution to this problem, not just say “It wont work”. The glass is not always half empty (there is another one, Gary). I will make this statement: I cannot, and will not be drawn into an argument, over this discussion. If I am going to be part of the solution, it will be through interaction not reaction (OOPS, There’s another one). Oh, one other thing. I chose to list my name, so if I ever meet any of you, you will be able to put a face with a name, not a ghost.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverado #22
Dayton, Ohio


Oct. 27, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
This blog was started from "Altered Bat Update"
Oct. 27, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
GENE 22: Keep trying. but, NO. I will not play or give up my bat. There r others that will QUIT.

I AM TIRED OF BEING ACCUSED of being on Steriods & using ILLEGAL BATS. I & many others, hit the ball hard & hit many Knuckle Balls.

Because we have "cheats", we should not act as if, everone is a "cheat". Good luck, THROWING a MGR, out because of a player; then a fan; WHAT NEXT?

What about a HISTORY on FIELDS? I will not play league ball @ DOC REMO, in Vegas. Last yr, during the SS-USA WINTER WORLDS ask Ron G., & Billy Steele, about Field # 5.

The STONEMAN.............
Oct. 27, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
STONEMAN:

I was not acuseing anyone of anything, and will not ever judge anyone???? Hell, I juiced up for football in the late 60s. Most of you big guys have 3 to 5 favorate bat in your bag at any one time. You toss the manager, because he is supose to have control of his team. Anyway, as it says, if there is no problem, the bat go back to the batter within 1 hour. You must admitt that there is a problem with altered bats, just look on E-Bay, and this is first about player safety. The manufactures can only do so much, and that only is in the case of copy rights of there stamp. Your suggestions would be helpful, on how to make this better.

Gene
Oct. 27, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gene, keep going, you're part of the solution
and are a good example of how to best utilize a forum
like the one Fran, Dave, Scott and Terry have provided for us.
We need to have at least one representative of the tampered bat committee trained and in place
for every park of every tournament.
That way there would be someone to make a preliminary judgement about a bat.
Entry fees can include a challenge fee to cover the costs Wes has referred to.
Failure to surrender equipment would mean
termination of the game in favor of the other team
and ejection of the player from the tournament and
life time ban for said player from senior softball.
Oct. 27, 2006
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Gene22:
Hitting the ball hard and injuring someone, though unfortunate, is not a crime,
When I play in a tournament, I have a 'favorite' bat that I am comfortable with. The confiscation of my bat for the next 1 hour (translation: the rest of this game) would not be an appropriate response to my legitimate desire to hit the ball as hard as I can.
Please don't pretend that my favorite/comfortable bat can be confiscated without any unreasonable effect on my game (my bat is legal).
The suggestion you have made regarding denial of access to comfortable equipment, though perhaps reasonably motivated, is unreasonable.
I shouldn't be denied use of perfectly legal equipment because of some arbitrary judgment of the magnitude of my hit.
Oct. 28, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
GENE 22: U have not accused me of anything. I am just tired of all the ILLEGAL BAT crap. So, r many others.

TOSSING a MGR: because, a MGR, has no control of a player. NO. Not unless a MGR admits to Knowning about Under Age Players; One of his player has stated that his bat is ILLEGAL; ETC.

WHAT NEXT: Control a 'fan' on yer side; a players wife, boy or girl freind; ETC.

When I play in a SENIOR TOURNAMENT, I seek out the T.D., or someone like Jim S, one of SSWC'S Field Rep. I show these men my bats. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THIS.

WHAT NEXT? If, a player, MGR, accuses a player or team of using an ILLEGAL BAT, that team & Mgr, gets ban from SOFTBALL 4 life, IF, there was no ILLEGAL BAT. I REALLY LIKE THIS NEW STONEMAN LAW.

I do not play much League Ball, because, once my team is over the limit, it is an out. In ASA, a H.R. over the limit, ends that inning. (( It is no fun to hit a H.R. that causes yer team 3 outs.)) NSA, u go over the limit & the other teams start getting runs, 4 each H.R.(( Tournament Ball)) The 5th H.R., gives the other team 5 more runs.

RULES; RULES; & MORE RULES, WHY? Umps want more money; games to end @ 1 hr or less; less scoring; very Few Home Runs; & SENIORS to learn the Game, LEARN TO HIT BEHIND THE RUNNER.

GENE, thanks 4 bring up E-BAY. There r many who do not believe me about buying, ILLEGAL BATS on E-BAY.

Whenever new 'LAWS', get started, someone or many will fall thru the CRACKS. SENIORS, want to stop the use of ILLEGAL BATS; Not ruin a MGR, that may not be awear.

LAWS; Because of 9-11, I have no LEGAL GOV.' DOCUMENTS, that I can show that I have the right to live in America. My parents were in Germany, after post WW 11. I have a German Birth Cert.' & my Nationalization Paper, has been recalled.

This blackish gov.' paper that I have, stamped by the U.S. gov.', took 3 yrs to get, is no longer LEGAL. It is aganist the law to have. Did the damn gov.' give me any paper work to replace that Doc? NO. NO. NO.

My father was in the ARMY & married the 1st Sarg's daugther.

We r about to open up a can of worms. The STONEMAN..
Oct. 28, 2006
E. Ness
122 posts
Gene the compression machine does not work so the only way to tell if the bat is altered is to open it up. Who is going to pay the player whose bat is taken if the bat is shown to be stock? I can tell you this I only swing stock bats and I hit the ball real hard. Someone gets hurt because of a bad hop and has to leave the game because I hit the ball too hard and then someone wants to take my bat and cut it open at my cost...Well it is not happening.

You can not take people stuff just because someone hit the ball too hard. It has not happen yet but someone will be acused of using a altered bat, the bat will be taken and opened up, the bat will be found out to be stock, the bat will be returned and the guy who used the bat will be upset because he is out the money for the bat and had to endure the slander that this plan brings with it. He will then sue everyone. It has not happened yet because the people involved know when to acuse and when not to acuse. You don't see them doing it just because a ball is hit hard and someone gets hurt. That happens all the time.

We as players know who have the altered bats why is it so hard for us to walk up to these guys and say stop using them? If you don't I will let the TD know.
Oct. 28, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
Let me start with this statement: Anyone caught using an altered bat should be banned from organized softball forever. Additionally, the team manager should be banned for 1 year (please read the whole post before getting upset about the manager part.) All associations should be contacted.

I am a lifelong softball player and have played at all levels and as such, think I deserve to make a few observations.

For the purposes of this conversation, I will stick to Senior softball.

1. I have seen a lot of speculation as to the number of bat cheaters out there. 30%, 10% etc. The fact is we really don't know and I suspect it is a relatively small number in Senior ball.

2. Those that have been posting about this subject play at the highest level in their respective age brackets and I might conclude that it could be a bigger problem at this level. I have not yet seen or heard about any of this at the lower levels of play and these are the vast majority of players out there.

3. Guys are bigger, stronger and in better shape that they have ever been and with the legal bats, there are plenty of hard hit, screaming line drives and 1 hoppers that can and will eat you up. Hitting is always the last thing to go, Reflexes and speed are first.

4. Everyone that plays this game knows that the risk of injury from a batted ball exists for a variety of reasons. Least of all from a ball hit by an altered bat.

5. Procedures are already in place to address the issue. But, I would expand upon them and make sure they are enforced. First and foremost is education. Make sure that the umpires and tournament directors and team managers know what to look for. That has to come from the bat manufacturers and the associations. As I stated in a previous post, all bats should be inspected by the umpire and team manager before the game. No additional bats will be allowed to come into the dougout during the game.

6. As players and managers, it is our responsibility to police our own. If you know of or even suspect a cheater on your team, it is the managers responsibility to address it. Managers are in the best position to know who may be breaking the rules and have the responsibility to police it. The last thing you want to have happen is for your team and your sponsor to be tainted by allowing it to happen.

In closing, I love this game and hate to see all these crazy changes made to it. It makes it less fun and distracts from the reason we're all out there. To make the great plays, to hit for high average and be with your friends recreating.
Oct. 28, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
In response to the above posts:

Jano: Please read my post on “Altered Bat Update” October 23, 2006. Yes, it could be a crime.

Hit The Gap: Your #5 & E Ness….Please read Einstein’s post of October 27. He ask’s that at least 1 trained rep of the “Tampered Bat Committee” be at every tournament park. Hell, I did not know that such a committee even existed.

Gentleman: Yes, no one wants to give up anything for even 1 (one) split second, but in this day and age, the good do suffer because of the bad. It’s not right, but all laws and rules have this in common. There are innocent people in prison. How do we know this, they are found to be innocent later and are released, sometimes. By the way, it reads “Up to 1 (one) hour. You might get it back before your next at bat, if we take Einstein’s suggestion above. Who would pay for the bat that gets cut open for inspection, and it is found to be legal? I do not know the answer, however that would be an item to address. Remember, that all problems are solved in several stages, and that would be in one of the next stages. If I were to take a guess…. the bat manufactures could do something on that. It’s to there benefit.

Some say that there are not many altered bats being used. I refer you to E-Bay. You can buy altered bats or for approx. $200.00 they will alter your bat. Altering a bat ranges from the most simple, pulling the weight out of the handle, re-painting and decaling to the most elaborate, shaving and loading. Here is what I know about the free market place. The time, energy and tools necessary to alter a bat becomes expensive, so there for, someone offering these services must have buyers. I am sure that some of these places are already established machine shops, but they must have buyers!!

Again, I do not know everything, and that is why I am asking for your help. Is it not better to possibly help write a rule, then to have no say at all?? The rules in place are not getting the job done, for a variety of reasons, and everyone knows this. So, what do we do??? We can all try to work on something for the betterment of all, and hope that all the Associations notice, or ignore the problem, and hope that someone will do it for us, and we will have to live with that.

Hey, Gary19: Before this is over, I may have as many posts as you LOL.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverados #22
Dayton, Ohio
Oct. 29, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
STONEMAN: I realy do hope that the SUMMIT pays attention to both of our posts. It would be a shame if they don't.You know that BIG BROTHER is watching us.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverado #22
Dayton, Ohio
Oct. 29, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Gene 22 - you were so right... Oct 27 'this blog is too long' Yes, like the lines outside the porta pottys at the million man march... way too long.
You can check my bats before or after the game, but not during. As an infielder I've been hit many times over the past 35+ years and, invariably, have felt that it was my fault. I never asked to see the hitter's bat.

HTG - perhaps you know what the inside of your players' bats are like but I surely don't.

Let's hotwire a little reality here... we love to talk about how great the U2 and Combat are and how 'we really hit some bombs' with them. How hot are these 2 bats? I mean are they 1.2, 1.3, etc. (and not right out of the wrappers either) And we're concerned about safety?

WE do have the Summit Advisory Board and perhaps they could be entrusted to find ways to punish the actual cheaters rather than legalize the harassment of those of us that do not cheat.

Perhaps history and, more specificly, gun control laws might be of some help to us. Certain automatic wepons have been rendered illegal. Who would you suppose has them today? Crooks or good guys?
Penalizing the 90% for the sins of the 10%... I do not see the value in this. I do not use illegal bats and I do not condone it in others. But I don't want the baby thrown out with the bath water.
Bob Woodroof, GSF



Oct. 30, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
the wood:

I agree with you. I too do not want any more rules, but there has been a lot of altered bats showing up lately, and has been the talk on many a message board, and the Summit Advisory Board (SAB) will in all likelihood, will be taking some action. This message board is also a form to bring a possible different thought process to assist the SAB. The SAB, as like any other entrusted groups, gleans ideas from all the resources at their disposal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bat and ball would be removed from the game if the following happens (as taken from the text):

If any fielder is injured, by a batted ball, and cannot continue further in the game his/her manager decision ONLY), the bat used and the ball hit will be removed from the game.

The fielder has to leave the game, if his/her manager believes that the fielder cannot safely play the rest of the game. Yes, the fielder will have some input into the manager’s decision, as would the umpire(s), TD, EMT’s, wife, girlfriend, mother, father, other players and common sense. Remember, this is about player safety first.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverados #22
Dayton, Ohio
Oct. 30, 2006
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
Gene, good use of the board, but although I too want a solution to the illegal bat situation, I think that this is a little too much. I have umpired bases in many tournaments, and we are out there without a glove. I have fortunately never been seriously hurt, but I have avoided a lot and been hit a couple of times. I do not think that I am any smarter than anyone with a glove on, but sometimes it happens even on the best fielder. I know that I watch the batter's feet and position a lot. Yes, I am assuming legal equipment, but I think most people would use a shaved, rolled, whatever bat to hit homeruns, not the infield. So does an umpire getting hit fit in anywhere if what you have proposed? Take care.
Oct. 30, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Woody,
We need to keep separate hot bats from illegal ones.
Cheating is a separate issue from safety though they are related.
We have to start defining stuff somewhere
so we can have some impact, right away.
The only real solution to all of this starts with using good balls so guys won't feel cheated when the pay and invest in a tournament.
But cheaters and cheating is where we have to draw the line regardless of how hot our Freaks and Combats become.
Remember you can make a bat ridiculously hot
when you fix it if you know what you're doing.
So,
lifetime ban to all altered bat cheaters
to start with, across the board,
across all associations.

We need to put some balls in the "movement"
to get rid of these weapons ASAP
and their masters.

Lastly, most of you guys aren't pitchers.
It reminds me of quarterbacks in football
who don't speak up for themselves with how
unfair late hits and blind side hits are for them
because they "caught up" in the machismo of it all.
Well, I'm now a pitcher and speak
from the most vulnerable players on the field
and I'm saying it's not right for any self-centered
bat cheater to hurt/take advantage of the most vulnerable guy on the field.
It's not right, not manly, a cheap shot
and shouldn't tolerated.

I'm serving notice.
I won't use any altered/illegal bat against anyone,
anytime anyplace.
I will quit and report
any team that has or endorses any player
using altered/illegal bats
AND I will hold responsible
as I SEE FIT anyone
who jeapardizes my health and future in softball
by going over that line.
Sound like a threat?
No.
A promise.

Oct. 30, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Joe,
This topic is obviously about illegal bats, which should have everyone on the same side of the table. But the solution that has been offered (bat confiscation) is the same one that Trumpball initiated 4-5 weeks ago and, from the posts I've read, is not being readily accepted. Gene 22 added some semi-legal language to it but it still has the same basic premise. Putting a tuxedo on a pig doesn't make it Fred Astaire.
You mention that safety is an issue but you also suggest that higher rated softballs will discourage cheating. I must be having a 'slow day' because I cannot see how this would help solve the cheating problem. Cheating = bigger/farther is better... Did I misinterpret your statement?
I believe that we are either part of the solution or, by process of elimination, we are part of the problem. I also believe that expanding the problem is not synonamous with solving it. The latter point is what the bat confiscation rule equates in my mind.
BW
Oct. 30, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
Gary19: I do not know what you are talking about, but you can ask anyone that I have played senior softball with, and they will tell you that if I hit a home run, that the world would jump off it’s axis and spin off into space. I am a punch & judy hitter and a pitcher. If you are pointing a finger…Please be more specific. Cryptic messages are not my specialty. I am trying, with yours and other help, to put a fix on a specific problem.

Nancy Allen: On my October 27 post, I stated the following “There is not 1 (one) “Home Run Hitter” out there, that hits a home run every time. When they mis-hit the ball, it usually goes as a line drive or a 1 (one) hopper. Both are usually screamers.” Good idea…. “Anyone on the playing field” will be substituted for “fielder”.

the wood: I had never seen or heard of the trumpball proposal. Now that I have seen it, I do not see the similarity, other than they would take any suspected bat, but did not tell you how this bat came into question. Yes we are on the same side “Player Safety”, but how else would you and others approach this problem. Just saying no, just does not cut it. I welcome any solution, for discussion. Citing posts from a message board, as the truth, is like the garbage man telling you that the doctor said that you were going to die. Yes, there is semi-legal language, at this point. It is a rough draft.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverado #22
Dayton, Ohio
Oct. 30, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Woody,
Sorry for any misunderstanding between us
probably effected by me.
What I meant is that at the heart of the illegal bat thing
is when TD's run out a below par ball.
There's guys who paid big money and invested important time to have some fun on the weekend
and there they go and "cheap out" on the balls and it's impossible to hit a ball hard all weekend long.
So guys say frog this, I'm not wasting my money and time and these butts put out an inferior ball and they long for
and/or reach for an equalizer.
Inferior balls I feel help set up the condition where some guys get motivated to "correct the problem" themselves.
I know I have felt this way many times
in my early years on the Senior circuit.

I'm not against playing/pitching at 50 feet with good balls and bats.
I'm against cheaters and bats that can hit a ball 110 mph.
I hope I've made the distinction clearer between the caliber of balls and altered/illegal bats.
If not, let me know and I'll revisit the subject and take another crack it at.
Oct. 30, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Joe - we're cool on all of this... just happen to be on the same side on the validity of the 'new solution'. Also, I strongly believe that cheaters will cheat, regardless. Good balls, bad balls... they'll still cheat. But I like to use better balls, too. In fact, I'd prefer better balls and no U2s but we would see even more cheaters (IMHO).

Gene 22 - you might wish to re-read my previous post. I didn't use the term 'truth'... I suggested that the number of posts that were against the 'new solution' were greater than those for it. In my mind, there is a vast difference.

You asked for my suggestions... here are some of them:

1) every player signs a statement before each tourney... it points out the his/her bat could be confiscated under certain circumstances (similar to those occuring in Seattle). This would not be automatically initiated by an injury, etc.
2) the manager would not be a suspect unless it happened multiple times within the same team. (I'm not our mgr any longer so have no personal axe to grind here).
3) TD appoints a person trained to look for illegal bats and has mandatory prodecure to follow when suspicions arise.
4) some technology would be used to assist in this process.
5) check bats before tourney and put identifying marks on them... like USSSA used to do.
6) stiff penalties for proven violators... i.e. 4-5 years for 1st offense, lifetime thereafter.

These are the common sense points that I have read over the past 4-5 weeks. I favor regulations that do not harm the innocent.

How about TDs that require AA/AAA teams to play major + teams in seeding rounds... or put us on crappy fields... or schedule us on fields with the sun facing the defense... or night games? These are rhetorical points but they promote danger as well.

Some feel that a bad rule is better than no rule... i'm not one of them.
Bob Woodroof
Oct. 30, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Joe, that first line should have stated that 'we do not happen to be on the same side of this one'...My fault!
BW
Oct. 30, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
I still offer that if there were some way to report back the vendors found liberally on ebay and other softball web sites that offer services and products to alter bats to a centalized web site supported by the associations and bat manufacturers in an effort to clear these people off the net we would cut them off at their food source. If they cannot advertise to the masses most would fold up and go away. What would their alternative be - to drive to every softball complex to promote their activity? Possibly if the associations/bat manufactures would put together a strongly worded letter via attorneys to go out to the various web sites citing the complicity of allowing this activity with the possiblity of legal action due to injury or death it might be a start.
Oct. 30, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
Gary19: No problem. I know that you would not pick on me, because I would just make a call to Cleveland, and have your ass waxed LOL. By the way, I just bought a pair of 360’s and my first U2 28oz NEW and LEGAL. I thought I would give it a try in Ft. Myers. Maybe I can get into the 301’ club LOL. As long as the U2’s and the new Senior Combat are considered legal by the associations, they are legal to use. The thinking maybe, that as long as these bats are available, that it may curb the altered bats. I understand that the U2 is in it’s final production run, but like the Freak, I am sure that we will be seeing new ones for many years.

Nancy Allen: I’m sorry, but I had to make the change for umpires in a different area. See below for the latest revision.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTICE

Please Read Carefully

If any fielder is injured, by a batted ball, and cannot continue further in the game (his/her manager decision ONLY), or in the case of an umpire being injured by a batted ball (umpire and or TD decision), the bat used and the ball hit will be removed from the game. Both items will be examined by the Tournament Director or his designees, and either be returned within 1 hour or be kept for further examination/testing and or further action. If either item is kept, statements will be taken from all interested parties coming forward, and the umpire(s) of that game, and submitted with the item(s) in question. Failure to surrender the bat in question will result in the player who used the bat and his/her manager, being ejected from the tournament. There will be NO EXCEPTIONS.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation: This type of notice could be placed at the sign in table, and sent with the Managers Tournament Package. Having the Manager make the decision to pull the fielder, puts the burden on the Manager, not to sacrifice a fielder for the rest of the game for no good reason. If the bat/ball is found to be changed/altered, then the association would then apply a prescribed action/penalty.


The wood: I stand corrected. I retract ”as the truth”. Thank you for your suggestions. I will address below.

#1) Please list, under what circumstances a bat could be confiscated. This is a slippery deck. By listing specific circumstances, you create big loopholes. That is why catchall wording is used in developing a policy.

#2) Under this document, the Manager is only ejected (along with the batter), if they refuse to give up the bat for inspection. We are dealing at the root level with this document. Penalties that would be levied, should the bat be, if fact altered, is a different item.

#3) Einstein said in his October 27 post: “We need to have at least one representative of the tampered bat committee trained and in place for every park of every tournament.
That way there would be someone to make a preliminary judgment about a bat”. This would be necessary. This person would, upon cursory examination, be able to either keep the bat for further testing, or in most cases, get the bat/ball back in the game ASAP (within 1 hour).

#4) Yes, something could be available to the tournament (supplied by the manufactures), should the bat still be suspect after the cursory examination.

#5) I think that this was done away with, because of the length of time it took to check every bat, and the stickers could be removed and placed on other bats, that had not been inspected. The tournaments don’t need something else to mess up the start times.

#6) Anything over 2 (two) years, might as well be LIFE to start with. Miss a year, at our age, and it would be tough to come back.

About the AA/AAA playing Major teams and crap fields…….I for one would not wish the TD job on anyone. With teams withdrawing at the last minute, and a host of all the other things……I think that Einstein and Stoneman would be well suited for that job. They handle people getting in their face well LOL.

Thanks Bob

Pete D: These people that sell altered or alter bats for profit on E-Bay and other places are like cockroaches. When you turn on the light….they all run, but are not gone, and will comeback. The manufactures can only get the ones that use their copyrighted material (logo etc.). The manufactures would have a tough time trying to get the bat shavers, rollers and loaders.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverado #22
Dayton, Ohio
Oct. 31, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
I agree Gene22. The approach I think that would have a chance would be to chop them off at the web site. It seems to me that ebay has responded by banning some things from their site once they had things brought to their attention with regard to particular postings. If that could be done with the various web sites shutting them out one by one it might be a start. That is where the free access to the available $$$$$ is. At least it's taking a shot at the sources that make it easy to cheat.

Pete D
Black Hawks
Norcal
Oct. 31, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Gene 22 -
After re-reading your last post, I'm a bit confused. In the paragraph beneath 'Important Notice' you mention the part about confiscating bats following an injury. But in the 6 rules listed below that part you leave the wording open (#1).
Please recognize that I do not, under any circumstances, wish to be linked to any rule/rules that use the injury factor as the trigger for confiscating someone's bat.
So if you intend to re-word it later using the injury factor I do not want my name attached to it at all.
On the other hand, if you do not include the 'injury factor' feel free to include me as a supporter.
Thanks,
Bob Woodroof
Oct. 31, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
the wood: I was responding to your #1. What are circumstances for a bat to be taken? Taking out the "Injured" is ok with me. Please redo it, and we will take a look at it. Thank you for your interest.

Gene #22
Oct. 31, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Gene, I suggest that Einstein might be better suited to answer this but I'll give it a shot. In Seattle, a bat was taken from the player due to its abnormal appearance... and that the guy had been hitting bombs with it. Ultra 2s were legal and yet he was using an Easton Flex 98 (normally has quite a bit less pop than an Ultra). The bat appeared to be altered and was protested.
This is the basic concept but the wording itself is best left to someone other me. But taking this direction effectively eliminates all of the issues associated with the 'injury factor' trigger.
I sincerely believe that you're headed in the correct direction and the end result could be language that won't penalize the innocent. Seemingly, the ultimate goal should be to dramatically reduce the number of illegal bats and thereby reduce possible injuries and/or level the playing field. To expect to eliminate 100% of it would be totally unrealistic. The more the Ultra 2 (Senior Combat, original Synergy) is allowed, the better the chances that illegal bats won't be used... but this isn't 100% either.
Still, there could be suspicious bats used by suspicious people under suspicious circumstances that turn out to be 'stock'. Therefore, the party lodging the protest must feel very strongly about the validity of his/her claim and this must also be supported by the resident expert (again, no one with a conflict of interest). If all of this coincides and the bat is found to be 'stock' the protest fee should go to the hitter (or some level of reimbursement). So the $ amount of the protest fee is important for obvious reasons. It can't be too low or we'll see a lot of harassment. It cannot be so high that this discourages protests.
Where will you take it (your proposal) from here?
My given name is Bob.
Oct. 31, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
einstein: Would you please contact me at: OhioSilverado22@aol.com

Bob (the wood): thank you for your input.As Arnold S. said "I'll be back" with you.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverado #22
Dayton, Ohio
Nov. 3, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
Gentleman/ladies:

I want to thank all of you, for your input/help. This blog and the "Altered Bat Update" is at it's end. I now walk away from this subject, unless SSUSA wishes to speak with me. I sincerely hope that the SSUSA and all the other associations adapt (Unified) statement/rules, to stem the use of "ALtered Bats", I wish all of you to Play Hard, but Play Safe.

Sincerely,

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverado #22
Dayton, Ohio
Nov. 4, 2006
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Gene22 - I applaud your efforts to clean up any cheating in senior softball. My point is simply that your suggested trigger for action against a suspected cheater is not reasonable. I use legal bats, but I fairly frequently hit the $*&? out of the ball. The possibility that someone did not successfully field my hit should not subject me to unreasonable sanctions. In particular, my bat should not be confiscated for any period of time. Your response to my previous post that (unintentionally) injuring someone is not a crime presumes that an altered bat was used. My point is that many people who hit the ball hard are using legal bats and that your suggested test to detect malfeasance is unreasonable because it violates the rights of the innocent.
Jan Schiffmann
Nov. 5, 2006
Robo2
226 posts
One way to cure this issue is to have the major tournaments supply bats. Clearly marked. Different weights.

I do pitch from time to time and I play third and first. I've seen many hard hit balls. Some I field and some I don't. Some I misjudge and some take bad bounces. This does not make me a bad fielder or one that cannot catch or defend myself.

I do not agree with the statement that the innocent are being accused. I would rather have my bat examined, knowing that nothing is wrong, and send a message to those that do use such equipment that such examinations will be performed.

As far as a favorite bat, I have broken a bat during a game and simply used one of my teammat's bats and hit just as well.

The issue is that we know some individuals use altered bats. I've heard some very good sugestions. Some people have taken offense. However, nobody can take offense if we all use the same equipment supplied by the tournament because it does not accuse anyone. It simply ensures equality of equipment. NOW LET THE BEST PLAYERS DECIDE THE GAME ON THE FIELD.
Nov. 5, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Jano23 - so many of us can identify with your thoughts.

Robo2 - your point about TDs supplying the bats.... I guess that I would have but a few questions...
1) what do you think that this would cost in terms of elevated entry fees? Or is it your feeling that they would either get a lot of free/highly discounted bats from the manufacturers. I could not see Easton, Miken, etc. ponying up the necessary funds on our behalf. Also, are the assns looking to be unintentinonal non profits?
2) I like to use my own bat... I don't like the rubber grip and prefer tape.... some guys like the knob cones, i don't. You can check my bat any time you wish other than during the game (unless my bat or my results appears suspicious).
3) Has there been a lot of injuries caused by illegal bats thus far? I have seen a few bats over the past couple of years that appeared 'loaded' to me. In each case, the hitter was not hitting the ball in the infield and he wasn't using an altered Ultra 2 (they were Eastons and Freaks)... but we were allowed to use Ultra 2s if we wanted.

Before we make Joseph McCarthyesque changes to a game many of us have played legallt for 50+ years, shouldn't we first know the full extent of the problem and look for measures that minimally impact the normal flow of the game? I'm all for reducing illegal bats but not with the injury factor trigger. We (not my team) just had two bats confiscated in Seattle 4-5 weeks ago... two different guys, two different sets of circumstances. This is a good start and, as far as we know, it didn't affect the innocent.
Bob Woodroof

Nov. 6, 2006
Gripit&Ripit
31 posts
Useing bats supplied by the TD's in tourney's is wrong. I've spent alot of money on my "LEGAL" bats. At $200 to $350 a bat who's gonna reimburse me the money i've spent on bats to use TD's bats. I have 8 bats at an avg price of $275 per bat thats comes to $2200.00. How do I get my money back if we have to use TD's bats????
Nov. 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think the idea of using the same bats is a good idea
but can't be implemented easily.
Overall, I favor simplicity and power in implementation.

lifetime ban for anyone who either is caught with an altered bat or refuses to surrender his bat for examination.
forfeiture of game and expulsion of the
team from tournament.

Let the pitcher pitch from anywhere between the rubber and second base for protection and to help neutralize
the dynamic improvement in bats and balls.

Let the bat manufacturers who know their bats
publish the operational checkpoints that can be used
determine if a bat has been altered after production.
Let their be a designated representative of the TD
at each park who decides if a bat qualifies for further scrutiny.
And in the case of any injury from a ball at excessive speed
the bat and ball are immediately surrendered
pending any action to be taken by the victim or in the victim's behalf.
And lastly,
an affadavit signed by each player before the tournament begins stating that he will not use altered/illegal equipment and if found not to be the case
will accept any/all consequences of his actions
and liability for any injury caused.


Nov. 6, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Has anyone of authority provided any meaningful & reliable information that demontrates that we have a real problem with illegal bats (causing injuries)?
If Terry Hennessy or Ridge Hooks were to do so I, for one, would be more than willing to listen.
Until then we're all just playing hunches... and I'd hate to see any major changes made to the game that are based on anything less than solid data.
We're talking about using Ultra 2s and Combats and that we're willing to live with the risks created by them. But because we THINK that there are 10-30% illegal bats being used, we want to pitch from 2b.

Joe, folks have heard from the both of us so much that they almost know what we'll write before we post it. It's time to hear from others. Give Terry credit for paying attention to what has been/will be written here. Your input really is important as it has been used in the past to help SSWC make policy changes. It wasn't that long ago that the Ultra 2 was 'done and gone'. But because of so many DIFFERENT folks being willing to express them selves, we can still use them. Terry looks at other issues as well and uses our posts as a guide when he feels the need.

So, Joe, you and I need to encourage the other people to share their feelings. If this is as important an issue as you have stated, then let's see if folks agree or disagree.
Bob Woodroof
Nov. 6, 2006
E. Ness
122 posts
Gary19 one of the reasons why Terry and others have decided the U2 is legal in his association and other associations is because as to date there has been no research that shows the bat is any more dangerous than any other. That is a paraphrase of a the thread from the SSUSA that was posted on this board a couple of years ago.

As of this date the death and mayhem that was predicted by those who dislike the U2 has not happened and the real reason behind those out crys (even today) is the homeruns and who are hitting them.

We are a funny group of players because many complain about the amount of hr's hit in games with the U2 and just as many complain about the exact opposite that is happening in the SSWS with the ASA bats and crappy softballs. The game has homerun rules so why do we worry so much about who is hitting them and how many are hit.

The associations have rules against altered bats and they caught a few. I am sure next year those rules will be enforced even more and so why don't we just trust them and let them handle it. I am sure they read these post as Bob says and I am sure they are taking it to heart so lets just see what happens.
Nov. 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary, safety as it relates to cheating, is the issue for me.
I'm a big boy and I'll take my chances with anyone swinging anything legal bat or ball
anytime any place.
It's the cheating that bites me in the butt.
Woody, I'm with you.
I been asking for others to get involved all along.
It's really up to all of us.
And I'm tired of hearing all the complaints and malaise behind illegal bats while nothing gets done.
Whatever it takes, Woody before someone gets killed or someone loses their house in a law suit trying to defend himself or goes to jail for reckless endangerment or assault.
Elliot,
I hope you're right but it worrys me taking this important stuff for granted.
When all is said and done
more is said than done.
Nov. 7, 2006
E. Ness
122 posts
einstein,
In my job we get a lot of the same feelings from our fellow Americans but trust me we know what we are doing and we are doing what is right for America.

I believe the same applys for the associations and while on the surface it looks like nothing is being done I am sure behind the scene there is a lot being done.

I also agree about the use of any legal bat and as to date the predicted safety issues with the U2 have not surfaced in senior softball. Those who want to go beyond the legal equipment need to stop! If you love the U2, senior combat or the 1.20 bats then just play in tournaments that allow those bats. If you are sponsored by a company that does not make those bats well that is your choice. It is simple.

The ASA bat does not compare with the U2 so why paint a U2 to play ASA? Just play in U2 tournaments you have plenty of associations in senior softball that allow it and plenty of tournaments. Last but not least ASA HAS BANNED THE 100 MPH BATS STARTING IN 2008. So those painted Freaks won't work anymore.
Nov. 7, 2006
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2689 posts
They also paint the U2's to look like Freak 98's. This will just mean more work for the bat painters and decal sellers.
Nov. 7, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
E. NESS: The BAT MFG's, have already gotten around ASA's 'New' Bat Standards. It took the Bat Companies less than one yr. E. NESS-- U ARE A HONEST MAN & A MAN THAT UNDERSTANDS THE ISSUES.

MY POINT: The Ball & Bat MFG's, are still out of control. Balls & Bats r still being made, that exceed TEST' STD'S.

BRUCE in GA: In 2008, SOME bats will have a chip in them. This chip ; " will have the following info"::: 1) Bat MFG (( I.E.-- Easton, Worth, Miken, etc.)) 2) Type of Bat(( I.E.-- NRG, Juice, Virus, M-7, etc.)) 3) Weight of that Bat (( 28 oz, 27.6 oz, 29.2 oz, etc)) 4) Date that a Bat was Mfg 5) End Load or Balance Bat; & that Bats Balancing Point.

MONEY, EGO'S, WHAT??? ThE STONEMAN...
Nov. 7, 2006
the wood
1087 posts
Inspector Ness:
This si truly the 4th time I've tried to write this... in speaking with assn persons, I find that their comments are similar to your last post... the perceived injury issue greatly exceed the actual injuries.

Stoneman:
Ideally, the chips will help reduce the number of illegal bats....

BrucefromGA:
the juiced Freak 98 might stand out a bit because I've never seen one that hit worth a damn.

Gary19:
Thanks for your votes of confidence... they were not ignored. Also, you had given a hypothetical example a few weeks back about bad hops and injuries. This actually happened last year in the 55 LVSSA. A semi-hard hit ball that took a weird hop (Ultra 2) broke the pitcher's fingers (throwing hand) and he had to leave the game. The bat was totally legal... why am I so certain... because it was my bat.
Had the injury factor trigger been an actual rule, my bat would have been confiscated. Everyone there knew that this was just an oddity as the pitcher was a good fielder. The ball truly wasn't hit that hard. In fact, I was sure that it would be a double play. The truth is stranger than fiction at times.
Bob Woodroof
Nov. 8, 2006
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2689 posts
Stoneman, The new bats are manufactured with the chip in 2008. This only means that these bats won't be painted or doctored, there will still be pre 2008 bats out there that will command a higher price that can be altered.
Nov. 13, 2006
Wes
Men's 65
312 posts
Gene22 I'm looking to play in the Dayton area this summer
can you give me a call
1-502-905-9386
Wes Worley
gwesarchit@bellsouth.net
Nov. 14, 2006
Robo2
226 posts
I agree with enistein. It is the illegal bats that I am concerned with not the UII. In a UII torunament one can expect the ball to come off a certain way.

But one does not expect it from more restrictive bats. I pitch, 3rd and 1st and I can tell when a batted ball comes off with much greater speed.

Also, for me, it is not just safety. If individuals get away with altered bats, it gives that team a decided edge. The cost of going to tournamests is too high to allow these bats being used against you.

I do not remember a case this year. But I do remember a case last year at the SPA National where a team used one bat and the ball flew like it was a 50 core.

I hold for very strict penalties for the offender.
Joe L
Dec. 1, 2006
bucky
Men's 50
13 posts
Has this idea died on the vine, or has it went further up the ladder? I think that it has the making of a good idea.
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