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Online now: 1 member: TABLE SETTER 11; 40 anonymousDiscussion: Pitcher safety screens.
| Posted | Discussion |
| Dec. 27, 2014 KennyB 1 posts | Pitcher safety screens. Are there any rules regarding placement of the pitchers safety scree? Are they ASA regulations? |
| Dec. 27, 2014 B.J. 1106 posts | senior softball doesn't really recognize the use of pitcher safety screens in their rule book..I've seen them delay a game or even move the pitchers box right or left a few feet if both teams agree to it |
| Dec. 27, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Pitcher safety screens are more common in senior softball league play than in tournaments. In our league, as well as others, the screens are even mandated! Why? Primarily because there is a wide age-range of players, from 50 to 90, and pitchers from 54 to 86. The placement varies, in my experience. Some leagues, such as ours, allow the pitchers to place the screens. When a screen is used in tournament play (for example when the pitcher is squinting directly into a low sun) it seems to be placed again wherever the pitcher finds it most protective. I have never had a TD mandate its placement. There ARE leagues that have tight restrictions about how far in front of the rubber, how far to left or right, etc. And there are certainly differences in the ruling when a batted ball hits the screen (dead ball, strike, foul ball, strike only on second hit while at bat, etc.). And there are differences about whether the pitcher can field a ball, or must step behind the screen, or can't field a ball if the screen is too far to one side, etc. In other words KennyB, your league players or leaders will have to mutually agree about these issues. B.J. is right that the current rules don't recognize the screen. I predict this will change and eventually screens will be mandated for tournaments, at least for teams 60 and over. The compelling reason will be too many serious injuries, or even a death, when a pitcher is hit by a rocket off a composite bat. If there is an unwillingness by players to tone down the impact of a hard ball and a hot bat common in the last decade, then the screens will come. |
| Dec. 27, 2014 B.J. 1106 posts | here is a rule that was written for a senior league PITCHING SCREEN RULE. A. The screen will directly face home plate within one to three feet in front of the pitching rubber, if a pitcher chooses to use the full depth of the ten foot pitchers box then the screen must be positioned in the one to three foot limits of where he/she chooses to pitch. B. The screen may be posistioned anywhere from the outer left side of the pitching rubber for a right handed pitcher to the outer right side of the pitching rubber for a left handed pitcher. C. The screen must be placed to the left of a right-handed pitcher, and to the right of a left-handed pitcher to maximize the pitcher’s safety. D. Any batted ball striking any portion of the screen as observed by the umpire will be declared a dead ball foul unless it is the third strike, in which case it is a dead ball re-pitch. All thrown balls are in play. E. Any pitch delivered with the screen not in a legal position will be declared “no pitch.” If a pitcher refuses to place the screen in the correct position, the umpire will notify the player’s manager and remove the pitcher from the pitching posistion. F. If a pitcher chooses to use a screen then they “MUST” step behind the screen after every pitch, failure to do so will be called a ball (umpire judgment). A pitcher is ineligible to field any hard driven ball that is hit up the middle. (umpire judgment) Penalty for doing so will be a dead ball single for the batter and all runners will advance one base if forced to do so. Pitcher will be allowed to field a slow rolling grounder with no penalty.(umpire judgment) |
| Dec. 27, 2014 DCPete 409 posts | Actually there already has been some toning down of the bat/ball combo in the last decade. When the Ultra 2 came out in 2003 the most commonly used ball was the Dudley Red Thunder which was a .47 cor/525 comp product. It was quickly replaced with the lower-performing Dudley (and others) 44/375 ball & SSUSA is now mostly using the Trump Stote "44/375" which isn't nearly as lively. So the balls have been noticeably toned down while the bats have stayed at about the same performance standard as the original Ultra 2. (not to say there aren't still some hard shots being hit up the middle) |
| Dec. 28, 2014 Fred S Men's 85 297 posts | B.J.: That are basically the same rules we use with a couple of minor variations. The big difference is we have to use the screen and pitchers are allowed to field balls as long as they get fully behind the net. Pitcher doesn't have an option. |
| Dec. 28, 2014 Grimmie 17 posts | I'm 52 pitched for 3 years I'm done pitching. Played Major & Major plus got hit to many times after changing the Home run rule this year. Yes we need a Screen using these bats. Around Louisville we use screen in Leagues u hit it your out, pitcher is dead until ball goes past screen, pretty simple rule.As far as placement screen had to touch the pitching rubber. We're not going to change bats to much money being made bottom line.Its funny the players don't want the screen never pitch lol. love Senior ball, Anybody playing in Tampa FL Jan 23-25? Southside/AMR C u there. |
| Dec. 28, 2014 Lefty Men's 75 721 posts | We have a screen for the pitcher in our rec. league. If batter hits the screen it's a strike. The problem I see for our league is the pitcher never gets behind the screen for safety. He is on the side of the screen trying to catch the ball. After 3 home runs it's a walk. |
| Dec. 28, 2014 E6 in AZ Men's 50 91 posts | Would this work ? (Please don't plaster me with hatred for I am just asking.) We played in a fund raiser in another community and could not use our senior bats, so the rules were for the younger players. There was two lines up the middle of the infield near the pitching rubber, on each side. They were about 3 feet apart. If the ball was hit in this area it was a dead-ball out. So this keeps the hitter from gunning it back up the middle. I understand that the screen offers more safety, but it also offers some troubles. I also understand that you could put a screen in this area, to maximize safety, and make anything that hits it a dead-ball out. I see "Grimmie's" post and agree if we go to a screen, but .... Would the two lines be an option ? Just askin. |
| Dec. 28, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | DCPete, it depends on where you play. In Northern California Senior Softball Association (where there are more than 100 teams), the MANDATED tournament ball is the Baden Fire. Although it is rated as a 44/375, it is much hotter than that. The fact that the manufacturer admits that it is unlicensed by any association gives you a hint that this is a lively ball. Put that with composites such as the Miken, and you have a ball zooming toward the pitcher. Also, there have been many comments that the Trump Rock ball used at the Worlds in Las Vegas is also hotter than the Stote. I agree that despite all the claims that "this year's bat" is the hottest ever, hot out of the wrapper, a real boomer, sends the ball the extra distance, let's me hit consistently over 325 feet, etc., no current bat is much hotter than the old Miken Ultra II of the early 2000s. |
| Dec. 28, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | E6 in AZ, the two line solution would certainly make things safer, but many pitchers I have seen hit were not by guys who like to go middle and swing with all their might. They tend to be hit up the middle by guys who swing powerfully but have little bat control. Still dangerous for the pitcher. I remember the time a few years ago that a big galoot sent a rocket up the middle that I was able to knock down to protect myself. After being thrown out at first he rushed over and apologized for the hit, said he never tries to go middle, asked again if I was O.K. (I was although my hand was throbbing), and apologized again for the hit. I believed him. Three innings later he is up again. I am careful to pitch him inside. Same result, although this time the ball was belly-high instead of head high! I caught this one. Again he apologized though it sounded weak considering the circumstances. I pitched against his team twice in that tournament and watched his team one game against another team. Nothing up the middle by him. I believe his potentially harmful hit was not intentional, but an injured pitcher finds little solace in that…and two lines up the middle wouldn't have made a difference for this batter, in my opinion. |
| Dec. 28, 2014 UMBACH 68 posts | I play in four league's they all use screens I think if a association trys a screen tourney and sees what the turnout is, and feedback you would have a better idea, |
| Dec. 28, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | I play in a 55+ daytime league and teams have the option of using a screen. If a screen is used and a batter hits the screen the batter is not out--it's considered a no-pitch. If he hits it again he's out. If a team doesn't use a screen and a ball goes thru the middle from the pitchers height and below it's a dead ball out. The debate the league has is if a team uses the screen can the pitcher be a fielder? |
| Dec. 28, 2014 DCPete 409 posts | You're right OK, we've never used the Baden Fire in our area & have only hit the Rock out in Vegas which we don't go to anymore, and the caliber of the ball being used is a bigger safety (and performance) issue than any type of bat that's allowed. Seems like the screen will always be an issue with pitcher's fielding since a lot of guys have pointed out on here that not being allowed to field a ground ball potentially takes away many double play opportunities. |
| Dec. 29, 2014 Grimmie 17 posts | Love talking about softball lots of different opinions. Lets face we are all over 50 now, most of us have to go to work Mondays. 4 the double play part using screen let us play 11 fielders. i agree balls in Vegas are very good, travel very fast through the infield. It shows players are concerned about other players safety. Until we use screens I'm going to stay off the mound,hate to admit it, pitched most off my life but I'm scared to get out there can't protect myself at the upper level. Senior Ball is so much fun get to c players from years ago, love the format of tourney play, play your games then go out and eat hope everyone has a great year & a safe one. |
| Dec. 29, 2014 LP 317 posts | so next would be a screen for a third baseman then the second baseman etc etc etc . I pitch have done so for years when I cant defend myself then i'll play another spot. I see a lot of guys pitching that shouldn't be there for they don't have very good reflexes. and I play in the 65 division. |
| Dec. 29, 2014 tg69 393 posts | Grimmie.Where you from? Louisville by any chance? |
| Dec. 29, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | LP, you're right. With our current hot composite plus lively ball, there are already more injuries to 3rd basemen. Doubt if screens will be the answer. More likely the ball will eventually become much more dumbed down. But comparing pitchers to infielders is apples to oranges. I release the ball from 50 feet away, my weight shifted forward, back up some if I know the batter likes middle, and do my best to field the ball (I could back up farther if the height limit were changed). My third baseman begins at 75 feet away and my shortstop at 80 feet—both already set and in position. Seems to me there is a greater likelihood of a pitcher being unable to avoid being hit than an infielder. I began pitching from 37 1/2 feet away 62 years ago. I get plunked more now than back in the day when wood bats and older softballs were the norm. Part of it is old age; a lot of it is the super hot bats and balls. |
| Dec. 29, 2014 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | 60 plus year old blastin away at the Middle... PMSL Turtle man.. where do you get your Data on the more injuries to 3rd basemen? |
| Dec. 30, 2014 Grimmie 17 posts | Yes tg69 form Louisville Ky, And no one ever said anything about other screens in the infield.I know are 3rd baseman plays 20 feet in the grass not even close to pitching.Lots of players try to avoid hitting the middle I know I do, at the age we are its more about fun to me. Very few players even want to pitch in Senior ball still like the screen ideal. Now I play 3rd middle 2nd or 1st I feel a lot safer now. |
| Dec. 30, 2014 tg69 393 posts | grimmie, we played your team in the finals 35 over state couple years ago.Bout time you were moving up to the senior game. |
| Dec. 30, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Swing, purely anecdotal. Certainly true for our third base infielders this season, but my sample is likely too small to prove this point. Logical, but maybe other third basemen are playing at 85 feet (Wow!) like Grimmie's, so injuries are reduced. And maybe I haven't noticed that shortstops are 90 feet back like the middle infielder behind second that oldsters like us use. Have a great season in 2015. Hope I get to watch you again. |
| Dec. 31, 2014 Grimmie 17 posts | Love Senior ball tg69 great format, I remember Mr Goatley was hitting them out of sight he was around 48 maybe. We did get to play in the best times in softball,Our Region was a hot bed for talent,heck we had over 25 A & above teams in the state of Ky in the late 80's & Early 90's. Now KY has maybe 3 NSA B teams,90% of the kids are playing E ball, My opinion is Bats got crazy when Ultra 1 came out, 170lb players were hitting home runs the big man disappeared. I would still play if they took away the "Senior bats" let the 60 & over players use them 50 & 55 don't need them.Great message board did anybody do the survey for SPA? Omar would like to meet u keep in touch on message board, tg 69 how old are u now? |
| Dec. 31, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Grimmie, I play in the West—California, Reno, Vegas, Oregon, St. George. That's enough travel for me although I was seriously tempted by a Hawaii tournament a few years back (still the West, I guess). I have noticed the same thing you have, and have written about it extensively on this site. Where there should be a huge number of senior guys playing who loved the game in the 70s, 80s, 90s, there are far too many no longer playing. Sure, injury, illness, even death will take its toll, but with modern health care and rising prosperity amongst retirees, there should be thousands more on senior teams. I, too, believe that the "crazy bats" have changed the game for the worse and as a result many, many men have lost interest. I say this as one of those 170 pipsqueaks who never hit a home run in my life in 50 years of playing, and then, as a geezer, begin to hit home runs with a Miken! Nice feeling for the moment, but would be nicer to plan on a tournament without it getting cancelled for lack of teams. Have a wonderful New Year's Eve and Day (lots of great football!), and a satisfying 2015. Enjoy your recent posts. |
| Dec. 31, 2014 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | Hey Omar,, we will see you next year,same place.. As far as the hot bats... I play in the upper divisions and it is far from a homer fest.. I know for a anecdotal fact ;-) that if they banned the bats and dumb down the balls, Senior Softball would lose more players than gain players who are not playing because of Bats being to hot.. Happy New Year to everyone! |
| Jan. 2, 2015 Fabe Men's 65 456 posts | Omar next time follow your instincts n come to the Tropics...will create many eternal memories! Aloha, Fabe |
| Jan. 2, 2015 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Fabe, I know about the great Hawaii weather because I've been there. What was extra tempting about the tournament was that guys that had gone there before raved about the great hospitality. I ended up not going because my schedule was too full that month and too much work to rearrange what I could (I know, I'm too busy to be a senior senior). Someday, maybe. |
| Jan. 2, 2015 garyheifner 649 posts | My team got one for batting practice. If you don't have one for your team, you are making a big mistake. I play in a league that uses the screen. Guys- It is not a big deal. It does not interfere with the integrity of the game. Ball hits screen-dead ball do over. After a few innings, the pitcher really hardly knows it's there. The middle shooters can blast away without the worry of hurting an opponent. We have many games where it is never touched and if it is hit, maybe only once or twice a game. Game time delay maybe 5 seconds. Pitcher picks up ball and pitches. Since moving up to the 70s and with the middle fielder, only a very few balls are hit up the middle anyway. Saw mostly pulling or going opposite field last year. |
| Jan. 3, 2015 Enviro-Vac Men's 65 489 posts | Omar - regarding bats. I would play with either metal or composite bats and as a matter of fact was playing SSUSA with metal bats in 2000. SSUSA also used a much better ball as well. It seems to me that there are more senior tournaments now and many more teams playing SSUSA then there were 15 years ago. |
| Jan. 3, 2015 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Enviro-Vac, I am more focussed on composite bats rather than metal bats. You're right. I have been using a metal bat since the late 80s, and most double walls were hotter than the old single wall aluminums. I'm not sure that the ball used in 2000 was that much better. Certainly in league play, where most of the parks can no longer contain the power of the hot composite bats, the rec department supervisors have gone to a softer, dumbed down ball to try to keep the ball in the park, and other than senior leagues, have banned composites. Because of composites, they are banned in some communities, even for seniors. And for younger players, because of the prevalence of altered bats, our local rec department still worries about other park users and vehicles being plunked by the long ball. As to more senior tournaments, I'm not sure. Calendar has been full for many years. More teams playing? Maybe. Don't know about other communities, but reports from Texas, for example, show a decline, as noted by increased field availability. But my point is that the dramatic increase in older men in good health (ever hear of the baby boomer population now aging?) should have resulted in a 36% increase in players, teams, etc.! U.S. Census data shows 25,516,000 men 55 to 84 in 2002 and 34,680,000 in 2012. Remember, these now older guys were part of the generation that made softball the most popular amateur sport back in the 70s and 80s. Most of them played on a team—rec league, company, church, co-ed, Club, tournament, etc. They enjoyed the sport. And where are they now? One large example is northern California which has had a sound oversight group in Northern California Senior Softball Association. California is known for attracting population and retirees because of the great weather. The number of teams registered in NCSSA is 106 teams in 2014. That number is a bit inflated because players can be on more than one roster so there aren't as many players as 106 teams would indicate. This number has not significantly changed over the last 10 years! There were more than 100 teams a decade ago! When you could only be on one roster. Why didn't we have 136 teams in 2014. Where are the new guys entering eligibility for senior softball? Not playing. Why not? I believe they have soured on the sport because it has become a sluggers game, and many of those sluggers are only doing it with hot bats, not improved technique. The game is no longer balanced as it was in the 80s when defense, base-running, and strategy were more honored. Guys I played with back then, who have dropped out, often cite the changed environment as the reason for their lack of interest in playing. |
| Jan. 3, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | Very well stated Omar, very well stated! |
| Jan. 3, 2015 AJC Men's 60 218 posts | Omar, we also play in NCSSA, we average 14 tourneys a year. One of the contributing factors to the amount of teams not growing IMO is each year at every level ( 50, 55, 60 etc ) there are a few teams that disbands. The top guys always lands on another team but what happens to the rest who cannot find a team to hook up with. We're probably losing as many as we gain. As far as the bats go, I would have to disagree with your claim that we are losing players because the bats are too hot. I have not heard of one player who has used them and said he doesn't want to play anymore. I think if they got rid of the bats that we use today. We would lose more players than we would gain IMO. |
| Jan. 3, 2015 JBTexas Men's 70 434 posts | Omar, I would like to know were you saw a report that Texas has a decline in players. We have as many if not more teams in every division with the exception of the 60 division. The number of 65 teams have almost doubled with the 60's moving up. Biggest problem we have is to many associations trying to run a tourney every week. We have SSUSA,SPA,NSA,ASA,SSA and senior games which doesn't count them all or any local run ones. SSUSA maybe down but not due to number of players but teams playing another association. |
| Jan. 3, 2015 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | JBTexas, the discussion on this site a few years back was about softball participation in general, not necessarily only seniors. I think mad dog and others were lamenting about the decline of softball as a sport. They talked about a couple of decades back where fields were jammed and it was difficult to enter as a new team because of the lack of field availability. Then they said this has changed and there are fields open. In our area, the situation was similar—too many teams for too few fields. Now we have nights that don't have any league play on some of the fields. Not enough players to fill all fields. But since I don't play in Texas, I am only going on what was reported by Texans. This is not a new issue with me. I have been discouraged by the declining participation in softball at all levels—rec play, church leagues, business teams, etc. And relevant to us, the missing men in senior play. Where are they and why have they dropped out? There has always been attrition because of poor health, finances, injury, other growing interests (like fishing or tennis), family dynamics, etc. But the number of healthy males over 50 is booming compared to the past, and where are they? The census count says a 36% increase in 10 years, but if we had statistics for 2013 or 2014, I would guess the rate has accelerated to 4% a year. I fault the extra hot bats (and I didn't even mention the men I know who have stopped playing because of safety reasons). What else has changed so dramatically? AJC, I agree that teams are lost through disbanding all the time, and it may be that newer teams are mostly replacing disbanding ones, but if softball was still a draw there should be another 100 men in the last 10 years in our 50 and over club. And there are not. I do agree that so many men have become addicted to the hot bats that if they were banned, the short term result might be that more would stop playing than start. But long term I can see many men returning who were never sluggers, but were excellent infielders, fast runners, smart players. Those are the ones whose skills are not valued as much as in the past when home runs were a rarity and even hitting a ball through the hole was not a sure thing. Hot bats don't just benefit the long ball hitters, but those who can hit the gaps for zoom them through the infield. My great fear is that those skills are no longer valued in younger rec ball because of altered bats and we are already losing them to the sport. |
