Message board »Message Board home »Sign-in or register to get started
Online now: 2 members: Jtut2424, TABLE SETTER 11; 76 anonymousDiscussion: 5 runs or 11 fielders
| Posted | Discussion |
| May 14, 2015 Dancer 115 posts | 5 runs or 11 fielders I was reading up on last years Houston tournament. Say when a 50+ team plays at 55+ team, they let the 55+ team have an option of 5 runs or have 11 fielders. I am just curious which option is better or does it just depend on the team getting the option. For example, if the team is good hitters, then take the 11 fielders but if not good hitters than take the runs. Has anybody here been at a tournament where they gave you an option of 5 runs or 11 fielders. if so, which one did you take. I am just curious. |
| May 14, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | Good topic: You are going to get feedback both ways. However: My Opinion is ALWAYS take the five (5) runs----------it is quite possible the extra fielder will never get a ball hit to them------------the five runs is HUGE------------because with a limit of five runs per inning, you are basically getting a Full Inning of extra runs in a seven inning game. On the other hand if you are playing a team that shoots the middle, putting a 5th infielder detracts to that somewhat-----------or a rover defender too--------------but the five runs is hard to pass up on with limited runs allowed per inning anyway |
| May 14, 2015 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | mmmm....hard one...teams i have been on have done both....like 17 says depends on the team your playing.....most take the runs from what i have seen....... |
| May 14, 2015 Dancer 115 posts | I thought about it too, I like your point about the runs. With five runs it is like you are getting an extra inning of runs and the other team does not. I did check out the scores and not too many games were over 20 runs which is telling me the teams were not hitting their limit on every inning. It is kind of a hard choice, the teams may not be scoring high, because the other team had 11 fielders (but also you made a good point the extra fielder may never have a ball hit to him). If you can put the fielders anywhere you want, I was thinking two rovers, one in left and one in right. If the team you are facing keeps hitting up the middle then move the players around. The two rovers would only work well if the pitcher can defend ground balls up the middle very well and your outfielders have decent speed. I hope some other people chime in, I like hearing about strategies. |
| May 14, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | We play 50 Major and often have to play a Major plus team at a few tournaments per year. I have yet to see a team that "always" puts up 30 or 35 runs all the time--------------yes it happens in individual games or a couple/few games in a given tournament. those 5 runs are hard to pass up. On the other end of the stick, we have also had to spot runs to teams as occasionally they throw a 55 Major in our bracket as an example----------we have had teams decide to NOT take the runs against us and use the extra player. There is no right or wrong answer-------but a full innings worth of 5 runs is hard to pass up on. Most tournaments and associations I have been in, what they actually do is give you (1) run extra in innings 2 through 6----------so if you really scored (3) you add the (1) run and you scored (4)runs that inning. I think they do it that way due to time limit games---------if you don't get all seven innings in due to "THE CLOCK" they don't want one team to have all five runs already on the scoreboard. |
| May 14, 2015 DonnieSmith Men's 40 3 posts | Excellent Topic. I have always believed that "Offense" wins games, but "Defense" wins championships. As a player on a Major Plus team, we have found it a bit more difficult to get the ball through a five man infield or split a gap with four outfielders. The 11 man defense can wear down a great hitters confidence........for the most part. And it really helps the underdog team if they have a good hitting team. My experience comes from giving the other team the option.....and we will win more games spotting runs than giving the other team an extra fielder. Holding teams to 0, 1 or 2 runs in an inning can really take the wind out of their sails when you have that extra defender. The flip side of taking the five runs is almost pointless if your team cannot put up 4 or 5 runs an inning. Defense will always prevail.....in my humble opinion. |
| May 14, 2015 Fred S Men's 85 297 posts | We play with the 11th player all year round in our league so I think I know the value of the 11th fielder up the middle. When I am pitching I get a lot of ground balls and popups up the middle and to me a good MF is worth more than the 5 runs. If you use him as a rover and he has good range and a good arm he will save you more than the 5 runs. IMO placing the 11th field behind 2nd base is a waste. In tournaments IMO it would depend on the talent of the player who is playing the position. If you have an extra SS then I take the 11th player, if you are going to just stick someone there then take the 5 runs. |
| May 14, 2015 Bruster55 Men's 60 109 posts | It all depends on the conditions,weather,wind etc..But we have had great success with the 11 fielders. |
| May 15, 2015 stick8 1992 posts | Playing 50 major plus the last seven years I've always been on the side where our team has to give the other team 5 runs or allow the 11th fielder. Personally I think the rule is absurd but if I was a 50 major team playing a 50 major plus team and I was the one choosing it would be the 5 runs. While Donnie makes valid points about how an 11th fielder can help the defense I wouldn't want my team getting too used to having 11 fielders. Especially considering in the tournament phase we'll likely be playing with 10 fielders. In my humble opinion of course. |
| May 16, 2015 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | I have never understood how a team can feel good about "winning" these types of games when in real score they did not really win if the differential is less than 5 runs. The fact that teams can only score 5 runs an inning (7 in M+) IS the equalizer! I don't have a problem with equalizers but it should be something that's EARNED, not gifted, such as the opportunity to actually score 1 extra run an inning for the lower classified team or possibly only allowing the higher classified team to score 4 an inning. With the 11 man defense, you at least are earning your equalizer by having to make a play if the ball is hit to a defender. |
| May 16, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | Jawood, I don't disagree with you at all, just playing by the rules we are told to play with----------as a major team we've received 5 runs against M+ and had to give five against AAA. If there is anequalizer, I actually do like the thought of earning the 6th run (if possible) instead of ending an inning at five runs-------if you get it you get it and if you don't you don't. I sometimes miss softball from 35+ years ago---------everybody played everybody straight up, no divisions, no homer limits. |
| May 16, 2015 garyheifner 649 posts | When we were in the 65s or lower, we always took the middle fielder. This is especially good if you have 4 outfielders that can go get the ball (speed). With the pitcher and 5 additional infielders it is really hard to shoot singles through the infield. |
| May 17, 2015 Mango Men's 50 159 posts | I agree with Jawood that when playing a team of less skilled players ( lower classification) the 5 runs an inning as opposed to 7 is an equalizer. You are also playing the "less skilled players" home run rule which is another equalizer. The extra runs or players is merely a third equalizer for the less skilled players. |
| May 17, 2015 Benji4 Men's 55 289 posts | Mango. I am disappointed in you. How about: Never take the extra runs Never take the extra player Play the better teams straight up and GET BETTER............. See you Wednesday at BP |
| May 18, 2015 Dancer 115 posts | I have been around softball fields since 1989. I have ran a few teams since 1996. Different teams have different talents, but sure a team can improve a little, but when your team gets creamed 30 to 2 by a power team and your team improved, the score might be 24 to 7 next time. I think the equalizer is a good thing, because I am playing in these once a month Sunday tournaments since 1989 and seen the difference in a level playing field. We use to have the tournament a double elimination, and when these power teams beat the crap out of the lower talent team, the lower talent team would not come back and they lost a lot of teams in the first three years. Then they change it to 4 divisions and it stable out this particular tournament. Teams are playing other teams at their level and 4 teams go home happy and not just one team. I think if Senior softball got rid of the equalizer, they would lose more teams. It seems to me the only ones who complain about it is the teams that have to give the equalizer up. Even I will take it easy on a team if we are killing them, I do have a sense of mercy. But all of this is my opinion. |
| May 18, 2015 neck10 714 posts | stick you shouldn't be so good,saw bobby at indy he looked good |
| May 18, 2015 Mango Men's 50 159 posts | Benji, Please don't be disappointed. I wasn't advocating for less skilled teams to take equalizers. I was merely agreeing with Jawood that the lesser skilled teams aren't just receiving "an" equalizer, but a basket of equalizers. Their runs per inning rule, their homer rules, extra players, extra runs etc. |
| May 19, 2015 Dancer 115 posts | Mango, I really believe what Jawood was saying, that he is against the runs, but for 11 fielders. Jawood was saying runs are a gift, but with 11 fielders they still have to catch the ball to earn their win. The tournament I was reading about was saying either 5 runs or 11 fielders, but not both, it really was not a basket of equalizers. That is why I was asking the question would you take the runs or the 11 fielders if your team was given the option. |
| May 19, 2015 stick8 1992 posts | Neck as far as me, I consider myself remarkably sub-average!! Stewie has been hitting it like the Stewie of old-- home runs & lasers everywhere. He hurt his shoulder last weekend in Lansing and was supposed to have it looked at by a doctor. Hope it's nothing serious. |
| May 19, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | Dancer, I will wait till SSUSA Staff tells me I am wrong & corrects me, but I don't think you get both the 5 runs AND an extra fielder???? Is one or the other. (at least in SSUSA tourney's???) There might be an exception if you wound up at a tournament and played a team at least two classes above or bellow you??? I'm just guessing on that one??? (Maybe like 50 Major Plus against 50 AAA as example???) Different Associations might have different rules. |
| May 19, 2015 Dancer 115 posts | 17Black, I never said you would get both, my question is which one you would choose out of the two equalizers? If I believe you got both, then I would never asked the question. But I do like something you mentioned, what if one team is two classes above another team, would they get both? You did not know and I don't know so maybe someone here can answer. |
| May 19, 2015 neck10 714 posts | me too he's been through enough need's a break,I remember the southwest industries day's we used to play tho's guy's in the final's(REED CITY) most year's. Bobby didn't take a back seat to anyone. |
| May 19, 2015 Mango Men's 50 159 posts | Dancer, When a 50 major plus team plays a 50 major team the major team gets potentially 4 equalizes. 1. They get 5 runs or 11 defensive players. 2. They play the lower teams runs per inning from 7 to 5 3.They play the lower teams home run rule with DBO 4. If the lower team takes the 5 runs they also are allowed to score 6 runs in an inning while the more talented team is restricted to 5. To answer your question about the case where a team plays a team two classes above they get the 11 fielders and the runs as well as the other equalizes mentioned above. |
| May 20, 2015 Dancer 115 posts | Wow Mango that is a lot, not worth being a Major Plus. |
| May 20, 2015 Mango Men's 50 159 posts | Dancer, If you have a choice and want to take equalizers-always take the runs. Good luck. |
| May 20, 2015 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | IMO - Always take the extra player. HR limitations and runs per inning offset the supposed difference in talent. The extra player - 5 man infield and 4 man outfield. Disadvantage to playing a five man, if you don't practice it then your defensive rotations suffer. When in doubt always play the force out at second, pitcher covers. If you can't score 5 an inning then getting an extra run an inning won't matter. Best bet is reduce the M+ team from scoring max and throw cookies with no one on base. Use up the HRS. |
| May 20, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | ALWAYS TAKE THE FIELDER... Because... it closes the middle of the field with an extra infielder It closes the short/third hole for right handers and the same for lefties. It keeps your three man outfield from running to death. And...the number one reason...it frustrates your opppnent offensively to the point that the awake hitters make more outs and the power hitters trying to be more "fine" with their hard line drives tend to misfit more balls over the fence (which in the dbo era of senior ball is a good thing) Oh...I almost forgot the second biggest reason....Manyo doesn't like it;-) |
| May 21, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | All good points indeed. I'm relatively new to playing senior ball, but based on what I've seen, most of the games end up being very close (by design)...and taking the extra 5 runs would appear to be more beneficial than having an extra player in the field. With time limits rarely do senior games go the full regulation amount of innings. (I've yet to play in one that did.) I'd estimate we get an average of 5 full innings in each game in the 50s age group. Those extra 5 runs would be big in a shortened game like that. |
| May 22, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | after reading all of the above posts, I personally think the only equalizer (as long as we are going to have teams playing each other occasionally from other divisions) is to play to the lesser teams home run rule (and runs per inning)---------scratch the five runs and/or scratch the extra fields. With only five runs allowed per inning, and home runs that game being equal, that should be enough??? |
| May 22, 2015 stick8 1992 posts | Well said 17black. Back in the day when playing B and A ball we didn't get any equalizers when we played AA or major teams. Conversely if we played a C or D team they didn't get any equalizes. It was straight up ball. In senior ball besides the hr rule and runs per inning rule 5 extra runs or an 11th fielder is absurd. |
| May 22, 2015 jsheeran Men's 50 60 posts | 17Black and Stick8: Agreed home run rule should be only equalizer. Who are the knuckleheads who decide the 5 extra runs or 11th fielder rule? |
| May 22, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | ^^^^^ Jeff, haven't seen you on here for a while. Hope you are well??? Where you playing this summer????? (what is name of team this year???) |
| May 22, 2015 jsheeran Men's 50 60 posts | Doing well and hope you too. Polyviou Dental 50 AAA. Playing SPA circut this year in Akron, Columbus and Slyvania, Ohio and Dalton, Georgia. You playing at any of these? Also playing part time with 55 Major team named Softball Club (last year this 55 Major team was named BankerMann). |
| May 22, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | Jeff, no, we don't have any SPA on our current schedule this season-----------playing 50 Major now with CPOA Cleveland---------although we should be playing 55 LOL we only have 2 guys out of 18 between 50/55. We hold our own pretty well though. All SSUSA/ISSA and "maybe" one ISA in Indiana on tap this year. We'd love to play in Akron/Barberton next month since we all live less than an hour from there, but no Major available. We are playing in Toledo for the SSUSA/USSSA Humphries Tournament at end of June, probably closest one to you. I was in Dalton three weeks ago unrelated to softball and stopped to see the complex------Good Luck there for sure, wow it looks like great venue !!!!!!!!! |
| May 22, 2015 crump22 Men's 50 60 posts | STICK8,The reason you didn,t get a equalizes back in the day,because you could ONLY play a Major team if you played in a Major tournament,which mean you play by their rule,major team could not play in a A or B tournament,Senior softball just trying to give the major plus and major team a chance to play.senoir softball tried that unlimited rule and HR a few year back, that was some ugly softball,NSA and USSSA had unlimited Run and HR without senior bats ,very few team would play without those Hot Stick,The Stars just love to play with what ever the rule are as long as the rule is apply fair Back to the question,I take the fielder is the wind is blowing in and the run is the wined is blowing out |
| May 24, 2015 stick8 1992 posts | Crump those are all valid points. Do you remember playing in Birmingham AL that one year? The first play-in game we played we had to give that team both 5 runs and an 11th fielder (mistake by the tournament director). That was when they gave the teams 5 runs to start the game. What was so absurd about that was you won the flip and took home team and they scored 5 in the top of the first. We were down 10-0 before we even batted and couldn't tie the score!! |
| May 24, 2015 crump22 Men's 50 60 posts | stick8,yes,Terry H made us play 5 games in a row on a Friday , because he though it were going to rain, Saturday ,no rain , sunshine,we had 4 players coming in that night,tournament over when they got there,its was the first southern regional tournament,we got beat by Hendrick.i don,t like some of the senior rule,but I just love to play,we played in Champaige and had to give sully,carl and doc 5rule with that Midwest team,we gave gelke building with players from lansing glass and bunca 5 run, not a great rule.can,t change it, so we just play. |
| May 25, 2015 stick8 1992 posts | Crump you have a great memory. I never knew we had players missing that were coming in that night. Anyway I agree with you when you say we just love to play. Being on OKI the last few years we got used to spotting 5 runs or an 11th fielder. Yes thats a rule that I'd like to see changed but it is what it is so we just play ball. Good luck to you guys the rest of the season!! |
| May 26, 2015 neck10 714 posts | guy's the lower classes don't have trouble getting team's in the tourney's ,they don't care if they play you or not they have enough team's .so I guess we should have to give them the 5 run's or extra fielder at least we get to play.we went 60 major this year look's like us and crump are the only two team's that play much in our area.sure would be nice to have six team's in your division every time. |
| May 27, 2015 Dancer 115 posts | Thank you Crump22 for the history of Senior Softball, now I understand how things use to be and how they are now. When I was reading about the schedule on the Senior Tour in Houston last year, it seems to me the teams would cross divisions in the round robin portion of the tournament and lower team got an equalizer, but in the actual championship round, the teams play in their own division. I guess it is not like that in all tournaments. |
