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Online now: 0 members ; 88 anonymousDiscussion: Missing 1st Base Before the Throw Arrives
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| May 27, 2015 SCUBA 83 posts | Missing 1st Base Before the Throw Arrives If someone asked me as an umpire what I would call if the batter-runner missed 1st base before the throw arrived, I would probably answer, "Well, the batter-runner never touched the base and the 1st baseman did, so the batter-runner is out." Apparently, I would be wrong according to several sources on the internet including the SCMAF (Southern California Municipal Athletic Federation) Rulebook Appendix C - Points of Interest which states the following: "If a runner passes 1st base before the throw arrives he/she is considered to have touched the base and the umpire must call and signal the runner safe. An appeal is then made by the defense if the base is missed." So, I have 2 questions: (1) What is the SSUSA ruling, and (2) What is the logic behind the ruling? |
| May 28, 2015 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | That is the correct ruling in ASA as well as major league baseball. Not sure about SSUSA. If a runner missed and base and went to third the cutoff man is standing on second and catches the ball but does not appeal the umpire does not call him out WHY because he has considered touching the base unless you have an appeal. Just as above once the runner crosses the base he has assumed to have touched the base unless appealed. Glad you brought that one up good discussion will ensure LOL |
| May 28, 2015 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | Sorry missed the scenario of runner missing second base That is the correct ruling in ASA as well as major league baseball. Not sure about SSUSA. If a runner missed 2nd base and went to third the cutoff man is standing on second and catches the ball but does not appeal the umpire does not call him out WHY because he has considered touching the base unless you have an appeal. Just as above once the runner crosses the base he has assumed to have touched the base unless appealed. Glad you brought that one up good discussion will ensure LOL |
| May 28, 2015 B.J. 1105 posts | SSUSA is the same as ASA a runner is always presumed to have touched all bases and only upon appeal should he be called out for missing a base...also in the 1st base scenario...the appeal has to be made before the runner gets back to the bag |
| May 29, 2015 cal50 Men's 50 328 posts | I am interested in clarification on this one. If a batter hits a ground ball to the infield and the runner beats the throw to first, but misses first base. Is the umpire to signal safe because he beat the throw even though he missed the base? Or does the umpire make no call? If in fact that is an appeal and a runner scored from 3rd base before the appeal, does the run count? I would be interested in Stick's interpretation. This seems to leave too much gray area. What if a ground ball to second and the fielder tries to tag the runner but the runner stays in the baseline and to avoid the tag misses second base but goes by it. Same scenario, would a runner on third score if according to the scenario above...the out at second base has to be appealed? Would it be considered an appeal, but still a force out? |
| May 29, 2015 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | He makes a safe call because the runner got to the bag before the throw but the appeal must be made before the runner returns to first if they appeal before the runner gets back then the run would not count if it was the third out. As this would still be a force second play: if it is a force out at second than no the run would not count, However if it was not a force play. and defense appeals runner missing second then run would count Come on Stick let them know |
| May 29, 2015 stick8 1991 posts | You guys are killing me!! lol Cal50 in your first scenario yes the umpire does signal and call safe. Then if by chance an alert pitcher or infielder screams out "ump live ball appeal, he missed first" Since the batter- runner did miss first and he is tagged going back to first he would be out (presuming the ump saw him miss first) and the run from third counts only if he crossed the line or scoring plate before the tag was made at first. It would not count if the tag was made before the runner crossed the line or scoring plate. This is a timing play. The way I see your second scenario as you describe it (and i'd have to see this one live) is almost the same thing as a batter-runner hitting one in the gap, going to third but misses second base. The fact that the runner in your scenario may have been agile enough to avoid being tagged without going out of the baseline doesn't make it a force or appeal. If this runner gets to second he is presumed to have achieved getting to that base--then the force is off. Then the live ball appeal and timing scenario as I described in your first scenario applies. But there might be some grey area. Hope this helps. Might see you in Tennessee next weekend!! |
| May 29, 2015 cal50 Men's 50 328 posts | I hope to see you in Tennessee. |
| May 29, 2015 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | Stick I would have to disagree with you if there was two outs before he batted. Actually he never reached first base safe so if there was two outs the run would not count. I do not believe the run would count. Would be the same if he missed first and went to second dead ball appeal that he missed 1st then the run would not count that is not a time play No argueing just not the way I understand it. With two outs the batter runner must reach 1st base safe before the run can count. with an appeal it means he never made 1st base |
| May 29, 2015 B.J. 1105 posts | Stick...Garocket is correct on this....no runs would count...any runners that are FORCED to advance MUST touch the next base including 1st... if they miss the base and an appeal is made and there were already 2outs then 3 outs no runs score... |
| May 29, 2015 stick8 1991 posts | BJ and Garocket you might be right. Consider this scenario: runners on second and third (myself and BJ), 2 outs. Garocket hits one in the gap, I score, BJ scores. Garocket pulls up to second base with a stand up double--but he misses first. Play is over. Then next batter comes up. Before the first pitch the pitcher appeals the runner on second missed first. Umpire calls Garocket out to make 3 outs. Do the runs count? |
| May 29, 2015 B.J. 1105 posts | stick...no...Garocket must touch first...lets say Garocket ended up on 3rd...he touched 1st but missed 2nd...the defense appeals him missing 2nd now u have 3 outs but we both scored before appeal...."this is a time play" |
| June 1, 2015 B94 Men's 50 138 posts | I think the runs still count because it's an appeal play not a force play. The gap shot missed base would have to be a live ball appeal during the play to not score those runs. The fact that the next batter has come to the plate now makes this a dead ball appeal which would get you the third out but wouldn't nullify the runs scoring previous to the appeal. That said I've been wrong before... Interested to see what stick has to say on this one... |
| June 1, 2015 B.J. 1105 posts | B94...yes it is an appeal play... but it doesn't matter if it's a live ball or a dead ball appeal, as long as a pitch has not been made to the next batter...unfortunately the SSUSA rulebook does not spell out in rule 5.7 SCORING OF RUNS specific scoring scenarios and it also does not spell out that ALL runners are assumed to have touched any base they are going to...but if any runner including the batter/runner does not touch the base they are FORCED to go to and the result of an appeal by the defense is a 3rd out then no runs would score |
| June 2, 2015 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | The appeal is on a forced runner. The runner batter runner is forced to touch 1st base. Therefore the run would not count, he never reached 1st base safely Same scenerio is if bases are loaded two outs. Batter hits a double runner on 1st misses 2nd and after all play has ceased the defense appeals the runner that was on 1st misses 2nd that would be the 3rd out on a force play and no runs would count. Now if the batter runner hits a triple and misses 2nd all runs would count because the runner missing 2nd would not be a force out because he was not forced to second because a batter runner forced him to move up. Guys I think a lot of you are over thinking this. An appeal play is not a force except when the runner missed the next base he was forced too. |
