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Online now: 4 members: Hitting10th, TABLE SETTER 11, cecil, softball4b; 108 anonymousDiscussion: ARC OF THE PITCHED BALL
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| June 18, 2015 JimmyRedSox Men's 55 8 posts | ARC OF THE PITCHED BALL SUSA Rule 6.3. The height of a legal pitch must be from 6' to 12' above the playing surface. SUSA Rule 6.14. Illegal pitch. The umpire should call an illegal pitch when the ball is at its highest point less than 6' or over 12' above the playing surface. The rule does not specify if an illegal pitch is called a ball or no pitch at all. Question: Is an illegal pitch called a ball? |
| June 18, 2015 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | It's a ball. |
| June 18, 2015 Capt Kirk 541 posts | Yes, assuming the hitter does not swing at an illegal pitch. Also, in tournament and league play, umpires seem to call more illegal pitch when the ball exceeds the maximum arc of 12', than the minimum arc of 6'. Capt Kirk |
| June 18, 2015 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | As far as our league goes, more pitches are called illegal for being flat than too high. |
| June 18, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | Capt Kirk: That's only because as an umpire, I have a little more time to judge the higher than 12' pitch and call it "illegal" than I do the flat, less than 6' pitch and call it "illegal." I try my best to call both "illegal" so the batter has time to decide to swing or not. Again, the key for the umpire is to call it consistently for both teams (right or wrong.) As a caveat, just because the umpire doesn't timely and properly call a pitch "illegal" as he or she should attempt to do all the time, automatically make the pitch "legal" and therefore a strike if it hits the mat. Its probably not covered in the rule book and definitely not a good practice, but I've called pitches (that have hit the mat) "illegal" after the fact several times. (This happens mostly on flat pitches.) Of course I take a little friction from the pitcher but I just don't feel I should penalize the batter because of my error. |
| June 18, 2015 TimMcElroy 942 posts | Rule 7.5 B (pg 41) A ball called by the umpire for each illegally pitched ball not swung at. |
| June 19, 2015 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | In my short time playing senior ball, I am amazed at how most umpires will call a ball in the 6 to 7 ft. range illegal 90% of the time but have no problem letting pitchers throw the the in the 13 to 14 ft. range and not call illegal. |
| June 19, 2015 k man Men's 65 326 posts | At least when it is called in flight you have time to react. In our senior league, the umps don't make the call until after it has landed on the ground or caught by catcher so you have no idea what the ump may rule as too flat or too high. I've brought this up to league officials and they just feel it is one thing as an advantage to the pitcher. On another note, our 40+ league at night has a 4 foot (from the point of release) to 10 foot arc. Seems like some of the pitchers are scraping their knuckles on the ground and they usually come in a wee bit faster. Again what's legal is up to the umps discretion. I've found that in my past 2 years of tournament ball, the umps have a pretty good handle on the heights and also in making the call while the ball is in the air. |
| June 19, 2015 garyheifner 649 posts | Being an outfielder/pitcher, I agree with lb 16. As soon as the other team starts bitching about a 6 to 7 foot arc strike, you can forget pitching that height the rest of the game. How hard is it for the ump to determine the height of the pitcher and go from there. I am 5' 10. Any pitch that clears my hat should be a legal strike. Yah-right. There is no ump in the universe that knows what 12' is. I often get squeezed down to about 10-10 1/2. When I remind the ump I can stand on my own head and the arc will still have 4" left over, they usually just stare into space and try and figure out what I just said. As soon as the other team starts bitching about a real 12' strike call, it's back to 10'. 10 should be easier for umps to picture and is why I would like to see the arc changed to 6-10. |
| June 20, 2015 k man Men's 65 326 posts | gary, a couple of years ago in our senior league, the head umpire was umping our game. He purposely came to the game with a paint roller on an extended pole to 12 feet to show everyone what 12 feet looks like. It's up there and most umps probably only give about 10 feet. Reminds me of back in the day when we played unlimited arc for a few years. |
| June 20, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | Garyheifner: I'll take that bet on the calling of a 12' arc. Pitched it, Umpired it, Managed it, etc. I am retired from the game but I will take you on that I could and I know some other Umpires that could call the 12' arc in their sleep. (by the way, am a former ASA & USSSA State & National Certified Umpire as well as the former Eaton Rapids Softball Assciation's UIC) If Senior Ball (all Associations) would ever take my suggestion and use today's technology by using something call "YouTube", they could get ALL UMPIRES on the same page for: 1. Correct Arc Heights, Limits and Calls 2. Correct Field Positioning 3. Correct Field Mechanics 4. Rule Interpretation 5. Dress Code 6. Correct Vocal Mechanics 7. Update availability on New Rules Have suggested this to Regional UICs and National UICs for going on 3-years and still no response. |
| June 20, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | I can tell you as an umpire, right, wrong, or otherwise, I call illegal at the pitches' highest point on the flat pitch because I am trying to warn the pitcher. I call it louder than the high ones, and I know it. I believe that I have a pretty good idea what 12' is, but I agree with Gary that it looks a little higher since ASA went to 10'. My opinion only, I think seniors should stay at 12' because we "grew up" on this. I am 5' 1/2 "; so please don't tell me a pitch that doesn't go above my eyes is 6' because that makes me at 7'. My feet do not show in my driver's license picture, but you know what I mean. 6' is about a foot above my head. I am sure that they get 5' 9" or 10" on me all the time, just saying. Remember, I am the same dummy that likes to hit an inside pitch anyway. Would never call it on anyone else. I just cannot lay off it. |
| June 20, 2015 garyheifner 649 posts | Nancy I got that inside pitch hitting down to an art. 1. You step slightly in the bucket 2. You increase your bat head or swing speed significantly. 3. You power a perfect two hopper to the 3rd baseman who throws you out by 4-6 steps. works every time! |
| June 20, 2015 D-Ballgame 6 posts | @ Nancy Allen: ".....we should stay at 12' because that's what we grew up on....." Like Model T's, Tube televisions, rotary phones, etc., etc.? Really? Well, MANY of "us" seniors DIDN'T "grow up on it".....and never had ASA in our region to play......only U-trip and NSA. More and more of the "younger" seniors.....40's, 50's, 55's and even some 60's......aren't all that excited about 12'. Nor the FULL 4-3 count......so, as the younger numbers grow....changes could be right around the corner.....and SSUSA will listen to their majority $ustomers....or another association may rise up and fill the void. Remember.....nothing is forever.......cheers! |
| June 20, 2015 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | I agree with D-Ballgame!! How many years now has every organization except senior ball gone to 10' or less? At least 7-8 years now. Most of the guys coming in to senior ball now haven't seen anything near 12' in years! And when you add the extra ft. or 2 that most umpires let go. Yea I would love to see the arc max height at 10'!! |
| June 20, 2015 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | k man, lucky you if you were able to play with unlimited arc for a "few years". In our area, it lasted one year. Best year pitching of my life. This wasn't senior softball, so I still had to land behind the plate and make it seem that it went through the high zone of the batter, but I had more strikeouts, more low-scoring games, than ever in my 63 years of pitching! What a blast! But, of course, there were howls from batters about how hard it was to hit, "ruining the game" etc. I was amazed at the number of players that evidently can't hit a fungo. Anyway, the rule changed back to the old limit of 12 feet after one season and the whining hitters returned to the slugfest (such as it was then with wooden and single-wall aluminum bats). I'd love to see a rule change back to unlimited arc. Would be a great pitcher protection step. I could stroll back to second after the pitch and be ready to field any shot up the middle. But it seems unlikely to happen as evidently the young-un's are already complaining about 12 feet as being too difficult. Final step in this direction? T-Ball. |
| June 20, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | D-Ballgame, point well taken. I have always been 10 - 20 years younger than the senior players that I hang out with; I played ASA starting out as that was what was here. Midwest was the first NSA park in the country, and the owner also had Metro; so I played that also. I do believe with attrition that things will change at some point. I have heard my friends talk about when there was unlimited arch, or how no one believed that slow pitch would catch on when they were playing fast pitch. I have played neither. I have younger friends that go to Canada to play and find the unlimited arch a challenge but take it as part of the game there. Lb16, you are a little off. ASA only went to 10' a few years ago. I will say that it was surprising as that was one of their mainstays. All ASA leagues here have kept the arch higher either for tradition or to protect the pitcher. Only one ASA park here still allows steel cleats. None of the local ASA parks allows stealing. |
| June 21, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Gary, thanks, I seem to have mastered that. I just cannot lay off that inside pitch, and as you indicated, I do not have good results. I was taught to go up the middle and usually hit to the right side. I am only jealous of how lefties seem to do well when they take an inside pitch. So I always go back to my philosophies when it comes to pitches when I am batting. We like what we like. It is bad luck to swing at a good pitch. I will hit the first pitch if it is even remotely close. |
| June 21, 2015 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | Nancy you are right I was a little off ASA changed rule in 2009 took effect for the 2010 season so it has been if effect for 6 years now. As I said most of the new seniors have not seen 12' in years, 6 now! When SSUSA made rule change on homeruns one of their main points was ASA and USSSA all have DBO's for homeruns over the limit so SSUSA should be a well. Well they also both have a max pitch height of 10'. When should we expect SSUSA to follow suit since they pattern there rules I guess as they see fit to ASA. |
| June 22, 2015 B94 Men's 50 138 posts | I've got to agree with what a lot of others have said here. The perception of 6'-12' seems more often to be 8'-14' and higher. I'm not sure if it's perception of the actual arc or other things that are creating this issue but as an example after a heated debate on the field with what I consider to be one of the better and more reasonable umpires we have I convinced him to come to an empty diamond with me later that day where I proceeded to set up my Juggs pitching screen (without the net in it) approx. halfway between the rubber and the plate. I got him to go behind the plate and threw some pitches just over the top bar so these are about 6"-6" high. He told me straight up that he would have called them illegal and proceeded to say that was to protect me. Another debate ensued but I finally got him to say that by the definition in the rulebook these are not illegal pitches! The fact is that I don't want an umpire to "protect me" I want him to call 6'-12' if that's the rule! I know exactly what I'm in for with ever pitch I throw and accept that risk. The other side of this is if I'm throwing a particular pitch it's probably for a reason. This is a hitter's game - the only thing the pitcher can really do is switch things up a bit to try to throw off the batter's timing and make an effort to put the ball in a place the hitter would prefer it wasn't. Just call the game by the book. I also thing it would be good to go to the 6'-10' arc because then it would be more likely to top out at 12' than the 14'+ it currently seems to reach. The biggest thing from a player perspective as both a pitcher and a hitter the main thing I want is an umpire that's consistent. Set your zone wherever you need to but keep it there. We'll adjust but too many times I find that I can throw 3 identical pitches and 1 is illegal the next two are good. Now as a hitter or a pitcher you are guessing. I'm not trying to bash umpires as I know it's a thankless job and there are some exceptional umpires out there and kudos to the guys that take pride in doing a great game. I also think the YouTube suggestion is great for helping to train umpires. |
| June 22, 2015 neck10 714 posts | nancy gate closed |
| June 22, 2015 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | I only pitch in league ball because we use a screen. I've had many pitches called illegal that were, imo, 10'. I don't usually complain (exception is when it should have been strike three) because most times I throw a 16-20 it isn't called illegal. So, I now have the reputation of throwing very high pitches, which, I believe are much harder to hit than a 10' pitch. I will say that both umpires we use are consistent, allowing 10-20' pitches. I'm ok with that. |
| June 22, 2015 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | Exactly someone who gets it, you don't know how many times I am standing on infield behind my pitcher who is 6'2 and the ball is anywhere from 2-6 inches at least above his head and almost every umpire immediately calls illegal. And how in the world to most umpires not have a clue as to what 12' is? |
| June 22, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Neck10, that gate is closed, but the balls still go through it. It could definitely use some maintenance. That is my field; so I know it very well. Probably one of the best field conditions ever on that field was years ago when it was not draining very well. There was a small lake behind the infield between the center fielders. Mr. and Mrs. Mallard were swimming in it the whole night. Fortunately the drainage situation is fixed. It would have been your team playing defense that would have had a ball landing in that lake, and then your outfielders would probably have been attacked by the ducks. While I am explaining this to you, of course Dave would have to lock himself in the umpire room to keep from laughing at all of us, or at least keep us from seeing him laugh. As they say at Midwest "Playing through". Good luck with your season. Hope to catch up with you soon. |
| July 16, 2015 Silas W 2 posts | Reality is that there is umpire 'variability'. Always has been, and always wii be. Some think 10 is 12, or 6 is 4, or 12 is 12, or whatever. As a hitter, I don't care - it's slow pitch softball, so if what should be 6-12 is really more like 4-14, that's ok. However, as a pitcher, in hopes of ever getting anyone out and staying alive, I want 12, minimum, but I'm not always going to get that. The sport has given too much help to the hitters over the years. Why isn't it ok to win an all tourney with a .750 average? Why do hitters think they need to bat .900? We get the hottest bats, 4-3 count, the mat.....jez, could we tee it up any better for the offense? |
| July 16, 2015 garyheifner 649 posts | I pitch between 1/3 and 1/2 of our games. I can tolerate an ump who can't tell what 6' or 12' is. As long as he is consistent, I can deal with it. Can't tell you how may times an ump has changed his arc calls late in a game. I know a TD has a lot to do at a big tournament. However, if he sees an ump letting 14' or 4' arcs go, he really should mention it between games. We have rules and like to play by the rules the SSUSA has approved. Takes me back to the world championships in Phoenix. The high arc was almost like unlimited in a game. Both teams were going nuts. The TD did ask the ump what he using to determine the high arc. He said he was using a ledge on the mountain behind the field. They brought out a ladder and a tape. The arc was 16'. They dropped down to 12', he got a new ledge, no more chaos. By the same token, all an ump has to do is walk up to the pitchers, determine their height, and the flat call should be a easy. Had an ump who was really weak on the 6' arc. I asked him how he determined the 6'. He said if it went below the brim of his hat, it was flat. The problem was, sometimes he was standing tall and sometimes bent over. Sometimes he had his chin up and sometimes he had his chin towards his chest. That can be an 10-12 inch difference. It is always an adventure. |
| July 17, 2015 DieselDan Men's 75 599 posts | The plate ump walks out to the mound, they know their own height, they get an idea how tall the pitcher is, do the math, and pick a spot behind the pitcher as to what six feet is while they are standing tall, and stick to it. Kept any complaints to a very few during my plate years. |
