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Online now: 6 members: CDNSmitty, Golfman, Swany20, TABLE SETTER 11, rogt, softball4b; 100 anonymousDiscussion: Pool games....???
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| June 22, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | Pool games....??? I’m relatively new to playing senior ball, so I certainly don’t want to sound as if I’m complaining or being disrespectful to anyone. My question is why are there so many pool/seed games scheduled in most senior tournaments? I’ve asked several long time senior players but I haven’t gotten a solid answer. My point is that I’ve already mentally and physically properly prepared myself the weeks and days leading into a big tournament. I’ve taken plenty of BP, practiced a lot with my tournament team, modified my diet for peak performance, gotten plenty of rest, started getting plenty of water in me, etc., etc.,. Now I’m just speaking for myself but when I show up for a tournament I feel I’m at my best right then and I’m ready to roll. I don’t necessarily need to play 3 or 4 pool games before the actual bracket play starts. As a matter of fact, I believe (at our age) it does a lot of us a disservice because many players are not at their peak when bracket play finally begins because they have gotten nicked up or have tweaked something playing so many pool games. At the lower (age) levels of competition, they guarantee you 3 games. If my team isn’t ready or prepared to play ball from the jump…what’s the old saying…”two (losses) and a barbeque.” SMILE! Can someone please explain to me why Senior tournaments are set up the way they are? |
| June 22, 2015 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | IMO, the outrageous entry fees and the expenses of travel make the five game guarantee tolerable. I would not play if it was "lose two and bar-b-q". |
| June 22, 2015 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Screamer, I only joined senior travel ball last year so I'm going to try to address some of this from what I've seen so far in no particular order. To travel several hundred miles and spending hundreds of dollars (we are self funded) for tourney fees, hotels, transportation, food and possibly getting bounced after 2 games might result in fewer teams coming to tournaments. At least with a 4 or 5 game guarantee it seems as if you are getting something for your $$$. ps- I realize that this may sound like I am coming from a negative frame of mind since the mindset should be to win. Not sure what the optimum number of guys a team travels with (I'm thinking around 15), the fewer games played could result in some guys not playing much and may be reluctant to want to come to future tournaments, whereas with seeding games, I know my manager bats as many guys as possible. Not sure what part of the country you play in Screamer, but the 1st tourney we went to this year was April in VA Beach. We were coming from Long Island, the winter went on forever so when we went there we had had maybe one BP and were not in the best shape for peak performance. As it would turn out, we lost all 3 of our seeding games, looked terrible but at least got in some at bats. As luck would have it, once bracket play started we won all 4 of our games ands won our bracket. 65AAA Jaguars. Also went to Drifton , PA (ISSA) I think we lost our 2 seeding games and then our 2 bracket games so we were headed home early. And lastly played Jags 60 in Branford CT 2 weeks ago. Split 2 seeding games. split 2 bracket games and then on Sunday played 5 games (with only 12 guys) from the losers bracket finally losing in the IF game by a run. It's fun to compete and obviously more fun to win. |
| June 22, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | Good points Dbax and K man. I hadn't thought about all the expenses incurred (travel, hotel, food, entry fee, etc.,) or that the extra games gives more players a chance to play. Again, I'm not complaining, just curious. I guess I'm coming from more a competitive perspective. I realize how much of a blessing it is to be playing ball at this point in my life. I get that. But as a competitor, I'm giving my ALL to win. I'm going to give 100 percent all the time and I will not settle for anything less from my teammates. I hate losing, even if its a pool game. With all due respect, don't teams travel to these tournaments with their best, expecting to win...? Kman, I play and umpire in Texas. I've seen way too many times in tournaments where key players got hurt or wore themselves down playing pool games and weren't available to their teams when bracket play commenced (especially in the older senior age groups.) |
| June 22, 2015 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Screamer, being an outfielder I can appreciate your view about players who got hurt and were not around as the tournament progressed. Our outfielders also seemed to be used as courtesy runners more than other positions. Which is also why is helps to stay in the winners bracket. |
| June 22, 2015 crusher Men's 75 524 posts | I would not go and spend time and money if U went directly in bracket play. It is fun to play teams form around country getting to know lots of players. In senior ball (20 yrs) have had very very few times a top player got hurt. That is good. In young league there were lots of bad words and jesters aimed at other teams many times. In Senior Ball there are lots of times U will say Great Play to your opposition. I think 90% of Senior Players are still just as competitive as we were at 25. What has changed is we do understand it is just a game and that real life is much more fun. I hope you enjoy Senior Ball. James |
| June 22, 2015 SS13 40 posts | Screamer, I agree with your opinion. Don't forget the cost of having to take off another day of work and another night of hotel rooms. Entry fees could be less with a double elimination guaranteed 3 games format. |
| June 22, 2015 garyheifner 649 posts | The purpose of qualifiers is to get ready for the ring tournaments. We expect the "5" game guarantee so guys can try different things hitting-positions etc and build team depth. We really don't care if we win or lose. We just want to work on our skills and get better. Now, the Ring tournaments are a different story. We crank it way up. Several TDs have pulled some stupid bracketing in qualifiers so one or two teams go home at 4. Some TDs try and make a qualifier look like a big tournament. Just give us our 5 games even if we have to play a team twice. When we go to the big ones like Vegas, I am in full support of the two qualifiers with a "5" game guarantee. Not only my team, but others were pretty worn down after playing 4 prelims in past years before the real tournament really started. SSUSA got this right. As mentioned above, if senior ball ever went to 2 and done, senior ball would be history. My 70 team is mostly retired and have to be smart about where and when we travel and the total expenses. My team has played in senior ball since 2001. We would never go to a tournament with a 2 and done format. I guess I should be honest here regarding $$$. We are fully sponsored by the "United States Social Security System". |
| June 22, 2015 JT25 Men's 50 54 posts | 5 game guarantee is great!!!! More games to play...pool play is important for seeding....the only thing about seeding I don't like is the higher seeded teams should have the choice of home or visitors...not a coin flip...also you should rotate your players to stay fresh.... It's not a sprint is a marathon. |
| June 22, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | I'm not suggesting going directly into bracket play for senior tournaments. I'm only questioning the need for 3, sometimes 4 pool games beforehand at our advanced ages. Crusher, I definitely agree with you about the sportsmanship, respect for the game and each other, and the overall camaraderie in Senior ball. (I've established some great friendships all over the country.) And maybe that's the main point I'm missing here. Maybe its not meant to be so competitive. Kman, I too play outfield and I also do a lot of running for my teammates when needed. Definitely takes its toll on the body during a long, hot tournament day... but I love it. I know I should probably take it easy more often than not (especially in the pool games), but I only have one speed between the lines... and that's ALL OUT, ALL the TIME! |
| June 22, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | Screamer 5, no doubt that the money of everything that we pay for makes it seem more acceptable when we get more games per dollar!.... There is one more aspect from a coach's perspective... When you have 12 to 14 guys on a team that most of us self sponsor, you get a chance to play everyone in those bracketing games.. I play outfield and would not mind one bit(BTW I could play every inning of every game), sitting for a few innings or entire game in order to rest and get ready for the championship rounds. Also, it helps to get your second tier players some ABs to help them get their confidence up for when they are called on. Keeps moral on the bench up and makes everyone more cohesive in my opinion! |
| June 23, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | ALL great points...! I now have a better understanding of the pool games. As a player, I just want to compete. Before, I didn't understand the purpose of playing so many meaningless games before the tournament actually began. In my mind, the games needed to mean something. Anything! Tell me the pool games winner gets a first round bye when bracket play begins; or that the higher seed from the pool games gets to choose whether to be home or away in bracket play instead of a coin flip (as JT25 suggested above); or something else, however small the reward. How do your teams mentally approach pool games? What is your individual mindset? Are you playing them at full capacity or taking it easy? Do you care if you win or lose them? |
| June 23, 2015 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Crusher, agree with you 100% about guys congratulating you on a good hit, play in the field, talking about where you are from and how they hope to see you at some tournament down the line. Have also found most umpires to be friendly also. As a matter of fact at our last tourney in CT we played against Larry Berra's (Yogi's son) team. After the game, we were talking to him for quite some time in the parking lot about anything and everything. Great guy! Win or lose, the camaraderie is great! |
| June 23, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | I play them at 100 percent, although I think want to play them at 60 percent.. I will say I am more reluctant to run for people in those games and there are tourneys that the wins are important such as a bye in first round or a better time in starting the championship rounds.. so you have to weigh it all and see what's important to you.. Goodluck and Have fun... For the record, I feel the same way you do...I usually look at these games as a way to get some ABs in and get in the flow. |
| June 23, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | There are a lot of really great points above by all. THANK YOU When I first started playing senior tournaments five years ago, I too, was questioning the "seeding games"----------only because I was used to double elimination for three decades. Now I love them for many of the same reasons above. Our team certainly likes to win, and we normally do pretty well at most tournaments. But since our tournament team is basically " a club" that plays softball-------for the purpose of "playing softball" I like the usual 4/5 game guarantees------because its all about just playing ball at our age. (its all about softball) There are certainly some detriments too. If the weather is HOT HOT HOT, playing a lot of games on a weekend can certainly wear you down. Last month we won our two seeding games and got #1 seed but did a bonehead thing and lost the first game of double elimination, causing us to play five more games in a row to get out of losers bracket, all in the same day in 90 degree heat. Yes well worth it, but it was a lot easier at 24 than 54 LOL. Playing in 50's, a lot of guys (all of our team) still has jobs, and have to take Fridays off as vacation time (sometimes Thursdays and Mondays too)--------if we didn't have seeding games, guys wouldn't have to usually burn a vacation day or two, and we could just play Saturdays/Sundays. Unfortunately, even as recently as the late 1990's here in Ohio, in "young ball" we could find a tournament almost every weekend ALL Spring & Summer within a 20 to 90 minute drive, which was great for double elimination and two day tournaments and sleeping in our own beds----------------but now with senior ball, our closest tournament is three hours away, most are 4 to 7 hours away and/or a plane flight to Florida/Arizona or Vegas-------so for those distances, expenses and burning vacation days at work, the more games makes more sense---------at least to us so we can get our "club" together. |
| June 23, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | Adding to above comments from even myself :) I "wish" that at many tournaments, MAYBE instead of playing "pool games, seeding games, get to know you games" whatever you want to call them. MAYBE if possible, and if there are enough teams in a bracket play, do a flight or pool against XXX amount of teams so that every game does mean something, and still allows everybody to get their XXX (4/5) game guarantee??? As an example this weekend we are in a tournament with a total of only (5) 50 Majors-------if we played everybody ONCE in a flight, you would still get your 4 game guarantee in, and then maybe the top two teams play another game or best of 3 for the championship (as one way to do it, but there could be MANY ways to do it)-------that still gives all teams their games, they all mean something??? If you had 8 teams you could do 2 flights of 4 with the winners playing each other??? "or something" |
| June 23, 2015 TexasTransplant Men's 70 516 posts | Actually 17, the first couple of years that I played in the SSUSA nationals, what you are suggesting is exactly what we did. In 50AA in Aurora, CO in 1998 we had two pools (I believe seven teams each). We played all the other teams in our pool, with the top two teams advancing to a playoff. Don't remember if the playoff was DE or Single. I thought it was a pretty good arrangement. |
| June 24, 2015 rlspls1974 Men's 65 119 posts | 17, I like the way you think. Pools are a great idea. Doesn't cost anymore or hurt anything to try it for a season to see how it works out either? |
| June 24, 2015 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | I would like to see the pool games meaning something more than just practice. As JT25 mentioned, giving the higher seeded team home team would accomplish that. |
| June 24, 2015 17Black Men's 60 414 posts | Yes I know a "flight" wouldn't work in every tournament or every bracket based on the number of teams. Certainly 6 teams or less you could get your four or five game guarantee in by playing everybody once? 8 teams or more you could have 2 flights? Its not perfect, what do you do if you have 7 or 9?? 10 teams you could have two flights of five, that's easy. What if you had eleven? This is "probably: why we play "seeding games" that's what I call them anyway, as its easier to have teams play a couple games that don't mean much, before going to double elimination. I think the difficulty with my "wish" is for SSUSA or any organization, to be able to do every age, every division in some kind of flight format. You could have a tournament with 12 teams in one division but only 2 or 3 in another division. In 50's, especially when we play on Fridays-------------a lot of teams don't have their entire team on Friday, as some guys work or cant make it----------those teams go 0-2 or 0-3 as examples and get a bad seed but don't care, because they are at full force on Saturday when double elimination starts, and often change their fortunes. For three day tournaments in a flight format, that would force those teams to be at full strength on Friday. On another topic though in 50's I am just not a fan of playing Fridays, because everybody does have to take off work------(but at least you can schedule that)-----I am a huge fan of trying to get most tourneys entirely in on Saturday/Sunday--------I know that's difficult with field availability and how many teams are entered in tournaments---------but then again if there are weather delays or other issues, missing Monday at work can be a possibility too (and probably unscheduled with your boss) |
| June 24, 2015 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | We have scheduled "pool play" tourney formats, with and without playoffs, on occasion (fairly recent example was 2013 at the World Masters Championships in some of the more "senior" divisions) and will likely do so again. Here are the most common things we hear when we do so ... • "It's not really a tournament unless there's a DE bracket" • "We like it because every game matters" and it's converse: "We don't like it because at least in a DE bracket we can make up for one bad game" ... This is usually about a 50/50% debate! • "Where did Team ABC go? We're supposed to play them this morning!" ... Usual explanation: Five-game-guarantee and Team XYZ was 3-0 on Day 1 while Team ABC was 0-3 and mathematically eliminated from the Championship, so "We're outta here!" This is highly disruptive, rarely disclosed ahead of time to the T.D., and deprives the teams that stay from achieving the tournament games guarantee through a unilateral decision made for both teams by the departing team This is always a tricky decision, but we are open to reasonable tournament structure proposals. |
| June 24, 2015 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Why not start the games with no pool play, but use tripple emimination? Loose 3 games, you going home. |
| June 24, 2015 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | 5 game minimum makes it somewhat feasible to go tournaments and anything less is not worth it and would not draw a very big crowd? |
| June 24, 2015 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Paul, you need to look at what it out there there are many that onlt offer egg and have an vg-excellent showings**. At least here in CA. I can't name assn here but it's national. **mostly the younger guys but fees are half. I'll fill you in if ou mean me. addy is in my link here. These here are some of the best events out there but as mentioned costly. Onle a elect group get full brackets. and brackets that are less than 5 in reality are imo worthless when compaired to time, cost & what yiu may have done instead. Which usulaay depends on where you are located. Best ones I know of are Reno, Vegas and PHX. (no specific order) |
| June 25, 2015 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | thats great for you guys. Whatever tournament we go to we have to get on a plane and hotel and there is extensive money spent for each tournament. It probably costs each one of my players between $500-$600 per weekend so multiply that times 4 or 5 tournaments it gets expensive to go 2 and Q according to someone on this thread. That is where we are coming from. |
| June 25, 2015 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | Entry fee not withstanding, the real costs of a tournament to a team is travel/lodging. 5 games at least make it more palpable when talking costs on a per game basis. The organizations are trying to do their best to maximize play and expenditure. If you don't feel the format is suited to your team, then play local one day tournaments. These are for profit organizations and they are trying to put out a product that creates an environment of growth and repeat customers. What is the optimum word in this thread, not pool, not tourney, GAMES. More the merrier, more at bats, more better. Mike Adair GSC 60 M+ |
| June 25, 2015 sobs3 14 posts | - Just throwing in my 2 cents. Don't change a thing! - I think the SSUSA runs this perfect. I love the 2 seeding games because although they do determine seeding, they also are great tune up games for guys that don't play as regularly as they would want too. The only thing that maybe SSUSA can look into is having the higher seeded team the automatic home team. We recently were the top seed after seeding games and ended up the visiting team every game after that because we have a stubborn manager who always calls "tails" :) |
| June 25, 2015 SS13 40 posts | Valid points all, I think I would feel dif. if I was retired. But having to burn vacation days and spending the money for extra nights of hotels makes it rough just to play seeding games. |
| June 26, 2015 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | IMO, sobs3 said it best but I disagree with the automatic home team part... but don't really care how SSUSA, or anyone else, treats that part. I do not believe that being home team is that big of a deal. We like the seeding games because it allows us to get acclimated as a team, it allows the non-starters to get ABs and defensive time and for other reasons. In lieu of a 2 game seeding bracket and a potential triple elim DE bracket we'd prefer either a 4 game guarantee (lower entry fee) or a 3 game seeding with DE. The latter would be our first choice. We can live with either of the 3. USSSA used to offer an immediate DE bracket with losing teams falling into a DE consolation bracket. IMO, nothing could be more meaningless... it's a bit like losing out on the starlet and ending up with your own sister. A triple elim can also produce games like this. I also feel that whether you call 'heads' or 'tails' do it the same way all of the time (if you want to benefit from law of avgs). But being visitors offers some unspoken advantages, particularly in seeding games. BW |
| June 26, 2015 JT25 Men's 50 54 posts | 5 game guarantee ROCKS!!!...I tell the youngsters in there 20-30's that I play USSSA with and they say they can't wait to play SENIOR SOFTBALL they hate 2 and Q. I myself won't waste i'm time on a 2 and Q tournament unless it's in my back yard...IMO |
| July 10, 2015 curveball Men's 65 705 posts | Four teams brackets or less, go to a max 2 game seeding followed by round 1 the first day. Day two, complete the tournament. Full days expenses saved for every ball player, also, a full day saved for other things in life. It could work out you only get 4 games in some tourneys, so be it. Get um' next time. Stretching a 2 team bracket over 3 days is a joke. |
| July 10, 2015 Wes Men's 65 335 posts | Screamer You got a lot of good reasons but you did not get the right answer. If you did not have the pool games who would be number one seed and who would be the last seed? |
| July 12, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | Excellent feedback everyone…! I get it…, big Senior tournaments aren’t just about competing and playing softball; they are EVENTS in and of themselves. And that’s what sets them apart! In that respect the 5 game guarantee makes a lot more sense to me with all the travel, hotel, rental car, food, etc., etc., costs individuals incur to come to these tournaments. They are like mini-vacations. Outside of playing ball, there is plenty of time allotted to spend with families and friends and also to bond with teammates. I LOVE playing senior ball in any kind of format. (The original question came from strictly a competitive perspective.) Wes, in your opinion,… with ALL the different individual and team approaches to how they play seed games, do they really give a “true” representation to how a tournament should be seeded prior to bracket play? And outside receiving a bye, does it really matter much where a team seeded? Example: Last year in Vegas for the Nationals, there were( I believe) sixty 50’s AAA teams divided in two 30 team divisions. Each team played 2 seed games. I don’t know the tiebreaker criteria they used, but how SSUSA was able to properly seed the teams prior to bracket play with all the different sites was amazing. In the end, it just didn’t matter to me where we were seeded. You have to play well to be competitive regardless. |
