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Online now: 2 members: Smitty 2, TROW; 104 anonymousDiscussion: SSUSA Needs to review bat rule
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| July 13, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | SSUSA Needs to review bat rule We had a total nightmare in our last game at Hemet this weekend. The illegal bat rule needs to be looked at. We had a player ejected for swinging a demarini flipper because it doesn't have a BPF stamp. Rule states that if you use an illegal or altered bat you are ejected from game and tournament. Yes us as coaches and players should know rules but we don't know everything it was an honest mistake. Because you swing an asa bat not on the list you shouldn't be ejected and suspended for the tournament unless they think its altered then its understandable and should follow protocol to take it and send it in. Its just stupid. Batter should be called out runners return. If he uses another illegal bat or same bat then eject from game and tourney. Also it CLEARLY states in the RULES that umpires are INSTRUCTED before each game to inspect bats and take out of play those bats not legal and anything deemed altered! If this was the case this never would have happened. Not once in ANY game or tournament have we had bats checked by umpires this would have avoided everything. It wasn't like we were playing pass the bat or hitting bombs with it it was just one guy using his league bat and because their team was losing and crybaby/catcher every Ca team knows who this is called it out for a guy getting a base hit in the 5th inning. So the umpire called director on the phone director made a ruling and ump said play ball batter is out runner goes back. He cried that that was wrong (but continued to play the inning). The team didn't get any runs the next 2 innings then the crybaby again in top of 7 stopped the game and protested that the guy should have been ejected 2 innings ago took his team off the field went and got the director they came to the field and ejected the player after we had played 2 MORE innings. The situation was a disaster from the umps to the director. Crybaby called the ump names screaming at him and basically everything but touch him and nothing was done about it not even ejected after the umps warned every one and strictly enforced no F words which he used repeatedly and umps told both teams no more talking. Well crybaby did continue running his mouth using profanity loudly and one of our guys said something back with ZERO profanity and he was ejected but not crybaby! Once you make a ruling right or wrong you CANT come reverse it 2 innings later after the above team that protested continued to play! We pay a lot of money to enter and travel to have things like this happen. Sorry for the rant but it was handled horribly. Needless to say that rule needs to change hitting a non approved bat by mistake shouldn't have the same penalty as an altered bat. Also the umps need to follow the rules and do their jobs that they are paid to do also and check bats before the games. |
| July 13, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | EVEN MORE PISSED NOW THAT I WENT THROUGH THE RULE BOOK! A bat with an ASA 2004 stamp is legal for play and clearly has the stamp. So said catcher'umpire.....umpires on the field and tournament directors don't know the rules or even look it up to make sure they are making the right ruling!!!! bats approved section 3.4 ANY bat with bpf of 1.21 and either an asa 2000 stamp or 2004 stamp are allowed!!! Now due to all of this we got booted from tourney because of 2 ejections due to people listening to a player/ump that thinks he knows every rule in the book. BAT CLEARLY HAS A 2004 stamp!!! |
| July 13, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | If Senior Ball (all Associations) would ever take my suggestion and use today's technology by using something call "YouTube", they could get ALL UMPIRES on the same page for: 1. Correct Arc Heights, Limits and Calls 2. Correct Field Positioning 3. Correct Field Mechanics 4. Rule Interpretation 5. Dress Code 6. Correct Vocal Mechanics 7. Update availability on New Rules Have suggested this to each Association's Regional UICs and National UICs including SSUSA for going on 3-years and still no response. |
| July 14, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | 383 views and only 1 opinion. So said umpire/player should be suspended for using his intimidation to umpires and directors that he umps and knows the rules and they listened to him. Basically that's cheating! It directly affected the outcome of the game! Yes we are mad and if it was your team you would be to we pay a lot of money to travel and entry fees. So does every team and things like this should not be allowed to happen. If it would have been any other player using the language and disrespect he showed they would have been gone in a second. It was witnessed by many people. |
| July 14, 2015 STL0 Men's 60 230 posts | If it's opinions you want, I'll give you mine. The bottom line is that whatever rule is in existence, you have to live with. Anyone playing and the managers need to understand the rules and have a responsibility to do that so you can respond if you believe the umpires are wrong. There are several rules that I think don't make sense but when they were called against us we lived with it because it was the rule. There's a process for changing rules if you don't like them as well. Having said all of that, I wouldn't have much respect for the person calling out that particular issue in that game but he has a right to do it if he wants to. I suspect that he doesn't care if anyone respects him for it. |
| July 14, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | STL10 I completely agree with you. My issue is the ruling was wrong based on the RULES. He used his weight as a ssusa umpire and pulled up rule on his phone to show the umpire and director the rule. He just happened to leave the part out about 2000 and 2004 bats being approved for play. He consistently emphasized I'm a F'in ssusa umpire I know the rules it MUST have a BPF 1.21 stamp. No matter what we said it wasn't listened to and after the game continued for 2 innings with our player being allowed to play by DIRECTOR he stopped the game again in the 7th because they were still losing and made the director eject the player. The DIRECTOR walked over checked the bat and said no BPF stamp player is ejected. How the heck does a director not know the bat rule. Cmon that's almost number 1 priority in this game, How can you come back 2 innings after you continue the game. You obviously accepted the ruling right or wrong and it was completely wrong. That is my issue. |
| July 15, 2015 DCPete 409 posts | Two problems here; 1) the bat Rule doesn't say it must have a 1.21 stamp, it says it has to have a 1.21 Or LESS stamp (or the ASA 2000 or 2004 stamp). A lot of the older Senior bats are stamped 1.20 like the original Ultra 2 & red Ultra 2 end-load. The bigger issue involves INTENT as usual; while the Flipper is a nice bat, it's nowhere near the performance of any Senior bat so there was clearly no intent to gain an advantage by using it. Once again, this was one of those situations where a team/player tried to gain an advantage by some chicken-crap technicality. Don't understand why teams can't just play the games & try to win straight up rather than thru some trumped up "rule" that provides no actual advantage??? |
| July 15, 2015 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | I have no dog in this fight, but instead of tip toeing around and calling somebody a crybaby, just say (insert name here) did the above and my name is (insert name here). If you are going to slam an individual at least do it straight up. If you really wanted to affect change, write up the issue and submit to SSUSA. I feel confident SSUSA does not want its TD's or umpires affecting decision of a game to their benefit unethically. Mike Adair Joe Brown's All-Stars |
| July 15, 2015 Hookdup 27 posts | What division was this? What teams? Also every manager should carry a rule book just to be sure of rules. When I coached my daughter's fastpitch team it only took me once getting screwed on a rule, from then on I carried a rule book to every game. It's unfortunate what happened to your team because of a rule. |
| July 15, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | I did not insert names due to we are filing a complaint with SSUSA It's Men' 40's |
| July 15, 2015 TexasTransplant Men's 70 516 posts | I am sitting here looking at a 2014 LS Z3000 ASA Model. It does not have the BP 1.20 designation and the ASA approval stamp is neither the 2000 or 2004 stamp (it is the more recent approval stamp from a couple of years ago; no specific year indicated). I don't know why anyone would want to use this bat in senior ball unless they simply didn't have access to a senior bat. Compared to my senior bats, it is a log. However, if I followed the discussion above correctly, sorting out rant from fact, it is my understanding that this bat would not be allowed in SSUSA competition. In other words, there are some ASA bats that would not be legal (i.e., those approved by ASA after their newer specs were put in place). Correct? |
| July 15, 2015 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | What is unsaid is, someone probably thought the bat was altered. Now when I was youngish and strongish, I would use an ASA bat on short fields aka Oxnard, but considering the 40's were playing on the 320 fields probably not the case. |
| July 15, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | Sorry yes some ranting but it's because he was admit about being a SSUSA umpire and he knows the rules and nobody else did. He wanted an advantage because we were winning and had no subs and he is one of our better players. Well it is an older model Demarini flipper with a 2004 stamp which is 100% legal.. He is our lead off hitter and just trying to base hit which he uses that bat sometimes because the ball doesn't carry as far and he uses it a lot in league so he's comfortable with it. It was never questioned for being altered he wasnt hitting any mysterious bombs or pitcher killers. Lol |
| July 15, 2015 DCPete 409 posts | The rule book currently says any bats made in 2014 or later have to say SSUSA approved on them. The Flipper was a 2013 model & would be legal based on its ASA 2004 stamp. The 2014 LS Z3000 not so much . . . |
| July 19, 2015 SoCo#01 Men's 40 2 posts | Ive sat by and watched this long enough. Rant or vent as you will. SSUSA requires all bats used in "senior play" must be senior softball stamped of have a BPF lower than 1.21. Let's get one thing clear. If you choose to use a ASA bat, it MUST have the BPF on it. Most resent ASA bats DO NOT have the BPF, which makes them "illegal" in SSUSA play. Rule 3.4(7). Batter out. Runners return to last base occupied and player is ejected from the remainder of tournament. |
| July 19, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | Soco #1 you are wrong! Rule 3.4(3) All bats marked 1.21 bpf or less, SSUSA approved bats, or bats HAVING 2000 or 2004 STAMP ARE APPROVED!. The rating must be clearly visible on the bat or it must be obvious to the inspector that the bat is of age not to make it high tech. Effective with the 2014 playing season new bats manufactures after 2013 must be clearly and permanents marked approved for SSUSA play. So you are WRONG. Bat clearly has/had a 2004 stamp on it. If we go by your rules no OG ultra 2 would be allowed in play either. We all know they are legal due to 2000 or 2004 stamp only. So let's get this CLEAR an ASA bat produced before 2013 with a visible 2000 or 2004 stamp is legal! I did not make this rule up it is clearly printed in the 2015-2016 rule book. |
| July 20, 2015 DCPete 409 posts | The thing that you need to get clear SoCo is that the ENTIRE rule for legal bats applies in SSUSA play; not just the part that you want to apply. Just happen to have a 2013 FLIPPER & it has the ASA 2004 stamp on it & that makes it completely LEGAL for SSUSA play. You need to actually read the Rule Book or get back on your meds, whichever comes 1st. |
| July 23, 2015 Semmy 7 posts | @TexasTransplant and @DCPete You may want to have a look at the Z3000 again. or for that matter, any bat with the USSSA thumbprint stamp on it. The USSSA stamp says 1.20BPF right in the stamp. Big bold letters. Bat also says "Official Softball" on the opposite side of the barrel from the model number. Does that cover it? |
| July 27, 2015 BadCallBlue 1 posts | Sparky1 as a SSUSA umpire and Previous ASA and USSSA umpire of 20+ years, let me address some of these. 1. Correct Arc Heights, Limits and Calls 2. Correct Field Positioning 3. Correct Field Mechanics 4. Rule Interpretation 5. Dress Code 6. Correct Vocal Mechanics 7. Update availability on New Rules #1 6 ft is sometimes not above the Batters eyes. If a person is 6'3" then it looks flat. A flat pitch coming in we sometimes wait until it reaches peak and by that time it at coming in faster and right in the middle of the swing when we call illegal. Not an easy call. #2 Some umps rarely work a 2 man system and are not familiar with the mechanics. #3 Same as #2 Its frustrating for us too as I have been left hung out to dry because my partner did not know what base-runners were his responsibility. But in a one man, one should be in position to make the call. Are we referring to getting out from behind the plate here? After 5+ games in 90+ heat, some umpires are spent. #4 No excuse but this is not a full time position for me, I call 10 different associations in 5 different sports. #5 No excuse here. This too is a pet peave of mine. Directors do need to be more diligent on this one. #6 ?????, did you have a bad experience?? #7 ?????, how is this an Umpire responsibility?? Our Core crew meets in the spring with the SSUSA UIC to go over these. Just a note to help you understand where the UIC's and Umpires are coming from. This is not a big pay day. I do it because I love it and enjoy the Seniors. They are very appreciative of my hard work, knowledge, professionalism and the ability to call a good game. Some larger tournaments it's difficult to find umpires to fill the need. SSUSA had grown tremendously in the last 5 years and I am not a fan of a 40 division. I see guys registering the morning of tournaments and a quick tutorial of the rules. Yes, these are the ones that struggle. Now to answer your question, Good luck getting all umpires on the same page. Has not happened since I started calling in the late 80s and will not happen in my lifetime. |
| July 27, 2015 B94 Men's 50 138 posts | Blue I don't think Sparky was criticizing as much as offering a suggestion on how it would be possible using today's technology to get a better level of uniformity between umpires and to use the technology as a teaching tool. |
| July 27, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | BadCallBlue: Right off the bat, nice to read a reply from an experienced Umpire. Your credentials are spot on. Here is mine: 25 years A.S.A. Umpire State & National Certification 11 years U.S.S.S.A. Umpire State & National Certification 13 years U.I.C. for the Eaton Rapids (MI) Softball Association Current owner of the combined A.S.A./U.S.S.S.A. National Career Managerial Career Victories record ( #1,544 ) 2013 Sponsor Men's 55 AAA SSUSA 2014 Co-Sponsor Men's 55 Major SSUSA I continue to feel that if Senior Softball (all Associations) would use some of today's technology such as YouTube. To add to your statement: "Just a note to help you understand where the UIC's and Umpires are coming from. This is not a big pay day. I do it because I love it and enjoy the Seniors. They are very appreciative of my hard work, knowledge, professionalism and the ability to call a good game. Some larger tournaments it's difficult to find umpires to fill the need. SSUSA had grown tremendously in the last 5 years and I am not a fan of a 40 division. I see guys registering the morning of tournaments and a quick tutorial of the rules. Yes, these are the ones that struggle." I totally understand your point but if an association like SSUSA or the others continue to "pat themselves" on the back for the number of teams and their "big" tournaments, they would also be well served to look at unique ways to acquire new Umpire talent as well as develop some "tools" to assist and teach Umpires already listed. |
| July 27, 2015 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Sparky.1 ... Maybe this would be a great "What I Did On My Summer Vacation" project for you! ... Bogie seems to have the YouTube system down pat with his Swing Makeover Series ... Give it a shot and post the links when you get done ... That would also guarantee it's done to your exacting standards ... Thanks! |
| July 27, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | GeeeeWizzzz Dave.............If you and the staff would take some of those "exacting" standards and put them into some creative action, you wouldn't have to make all the snide remarks toward me...........Cut me a check and I will put together a "What I did on my Summer Vacation" project with YouTube to assist the Umpires new and old alike. And once again, thanks for the "Rattlesnake" trait thingy! |
| July 27, 2015 joel 1975 131 posts | sure your not from arkansas |
| July 27, 2015 joel 1975 131 posts | texas t all of softball usssa,asa,nsa,ssusa,spa,& all other's have bat's that are not legal in the other's doesn't matter about the bat it's the money who every pay's there asso the most get's approved.one time asa banned a worth bat it was green in color well let me see worth spent more monies with asa than miken but asa needed to ban a worth bat cant sell them might as well have them banned everyone's happy |
| July 27, 2015 joel 1975 131 posts | just buy the bat's with ssusa stamp on it and problem's are over.it's not rocket science!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| July 27, 2015 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | "Current owner of the combined A.S.A./U.S.S.S.A. National Career Managerial Career Victories record ( #1,544 )" What is this? Can't find anything on this statistic. Is it something only you keep track of? |
| July 27, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | Dbax..... Was certified by both the ASA and USSSA with letter communications and with Newspaper articles and other media coverage. |
| July 27, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | including ESPN |
| July 27, 2015 400 Men's 50 90 posts | Dr. Gregg you should be out focusing on Win 1545 instead of getting your BP up with this thread. It's great that you have been around BUT isn't the result still the same? and will it still not remain the same? |
| July 27, 2015 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | BP is doing just fine 400. Had my annual checkup just last week and the "Rattlesnake" as Dave alludes to, is still rolling along. Retired from Management, Umpiring and Playing years ago and finished with Sponsorship last year with the Banker-Mann Softball Club. |
| July 28, 2015 LM21 19 posts | hahahaha.... never played them before this tourney but the same guy complained in our game. |
| July 29, 2015 Hitemdeep 44 posts | Scott Loensorf is his name. We finally got a ruling saying the Bat was LEGAL I sent in photos of bat but the director or umpire cannot confirm that is the bat. They say they don't remember. They say the bat must have been to dirty to see the stamp. Amazing how we showed the director the Asa stamp pointed directly at it and he said I quote "that's not what I'm looking for it needs the BPF 1.21 stamp". It's a joke that no one will take responsibility for their mistake. Mike D Blue Pill Mafia |
