http://www.seniorsoftballstore.com

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 1 member: ace42850; 39 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: How many batted ball injuries can you attribute to U2 bats?

Posted Discussion
Jan. 18, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
How many batted ball injuries can you attribute to U2 bats?
Our league is ASA. We have a 12 team senior league here in Spokane WA and are trying to get them to allow U2's, Senior Combat and the like. As expected the first thing out of the head ASA umpires mouth was "no way, too many injuries from these hot bats".

How many injuries have you personally witnessed as a result of a batted ball off one of these bats? Not bad hops, just injuries that occured as a result of the ball getting there so quick as to be unplayable and cause injury.

Is there any documented body of evidence to show that the number of batted ball injuries has gone up as a result of the high tech bats? If so, I would like to know about it.

Thanks


Jan. 18, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
How is your league set up?
Do you have a draft or just go there with a set team?
We have a MM one here, Short fields, restricted cork ball, but a good draft setup. Rules keep changing to please the BOD and not the players, which is way off the mark, and crappy Upm's. We always get at least 2-3 upms a year we have to teach the rules to. The basic rules, not the ones they keep changing, because even the players get caught finding about them when something happens.
Jan. 18, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Gary19, I see is as the only real effect is the ball speed and direct shots to an infielder. Not withstanding slow reaction time for the player effected by it .... Bad hops, etc, are something else altogether. ASA looks at it as an insurance liability. And their coverage is 2nd or less in tier coverage.
But the Umps are usually covered w\1mil on them.
Jan. 18, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
First to answer you question, I don't know of an injury caused by a U2. Maybe some of the SPA or SSUSA officials can respond to this.

Our league here in Woodstock, Ga (http://www.cssasoftball.com), plays with ASA bat rules. We have tried to convince them that we would like to use USSSA bats but are being told that the park, for insurance reasons, needs to abide by ASA rule.

We draft, use Worth Gold Dots (ughh!), recently went to the mat, use a one and one count, and play on 300" fences.
Jan. 18, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
Taits: To answer your question, there are 8 set teams and the new guys are put into a draft. We have had to educate the umps on the senior rules. We play SSUSA rules.

Gary 19: One of the reasons we want the U2's and the like is that the guys that play in the U2 approved tournaments want to be able to swing the same bat in league as we swing in tourneys. The other reason is that it really brings some joy into your life to be able to hit the occasional HR that you may not be able to hit with the ASA bats. It makes you feel young again.

I just don't buy the injury excuse. I don't know how ASA can say it is an insurance issue if there is no evidence to show that there are actually more injuries caused by the hotter bats. There were 120 teams in the SSUSA worlds in Seattle last year and I didn't see or hear about 1 injury from a batted ball.

If ASA would just say they really want to limit the number of HR's, I would buy that reason.
Jan. 18, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
We have a decent 292 to left, in the middle is 278 but a building behind it, some of us use the roof as a target, and a short 252 to right. But trees cover some of the playing field and cover lighting on that side...
The league is a mon\tues league, sometimes alternating, so you need to plan pretty well if you work and don't get off by 6 when we start.
This last half of '06 we started what I call the good ball league on thurs nites. I supply Legend Centerfire2 47\525's for that one...
I think it will grow this year.
Jan. 18, 2007
cpope
Men's 60
160 posts
Not to far off the mark here, I played SS for 10 years (Major Senior Ball) the last 5 with the U2. I play at least 250 games a year except 04 when I had Achillies surgery and only got in 125 that year. I play a LOT of senior ball.
Florida Haft Century, 50, 55 and 60 ball. Very seldom you hear that a U2 got somebody hurt. I hear more about poor field conditions, bad hops, getting hit by a thrown ball, running into each other. I am sure that some people have been hurt by the U2, but my worse injury was a bad hop at short (15 stitches under the eye) ball was hit by a 53 year old man, not hit hard, not hit with a U2 but an old blue easton, it just took a bad hop. Hope that helps.
Jan. 18, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
ASA does work with the seniors in my area. We canuse the U-2 in our tourneys. And then again, if ASA wants to grow, the seniors is where it is going to happen.
I Hear you on the thrown ball think.
I got wacked in about 2004 while off the field beyond, a fence, in the face. I lost the 5th nerve and the side was crushed. Took a year to recover.
Field conditions are the parks responsibility\liability.
We use the run-through which is seldon seen anywhere but sue easier on the older generation to some extent. But that is really a argumentative issue....for both sides.
We had 20 teams with 11-12 playres each on the mon\tues teams but only 3 teams for the thurs nite one. The word got out really late for it.
Jan. 18, 2007
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
Hit the Gap-Houston here. We have 24 senior teams, ASA league. We use ASA rules excpet for our local rules. Insurance covers the use of the U2. 330 foot fence(not that that really matters) We've been using the U2 for at least 45 to 6 years. Probably 80 to 90 % use them. Plus we run local tournaments several times a years. Lots of games. I can think of one incident where someone got hit with a ball off a U2. As in most cases the argument can me made that the reaction time might have been more of a factor then the bat. Either way, its one from all these games. Unless someone from my league can think of another.
First question I have though is:Why does the ump even have a say? Its our legue, we pay him, he follows our rules. So I don't understand the umps statement about the bat.
Also, we do draft every year. We have four divisions, 6 teams(usually) and 12 guys to a team. Our top division changes over the years, as this is the top players and hardest hitters. Just info. Long as ASA insurance approves the bat, don't see any problems. My opinion.
PS some of these guys could hurt you with a single wall Demarini.
PS the injury was to a man in our second highest division and it was in the winter league. Hope this helps.
Jan. 18, 2007
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
424 posts
Our league uses USSSA umps and allows the U2. A lot of guys use them and I am not aware of any injuries, yet. An issue I do see in league play relative to touraments has to do with the skill level of the players involved. My perception is that the majority of the guys on this board are more serious tournament players. Not everyone who plays league ball is at that skill level.

We, also, have a wide age range all playing in the same league. With our Texas heat and dry summers, we play on some pretty hard, fast fields. The one where our league plays is not particularly well lighted.

Combine the disparity in age and skill levels with the less than perfect field conditions and its not the best of situations.

I have a U2 and thoroughly enjoy using it in tournament play, but I keep it in the bag for leagues. I wish everyone would.

Jan. 18, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
Thanks for all the input guys.

GT I'm with you on this one. I was always under the assumption that the umpires provide a service and do that at the pleasure of the league and the players. It appears that this ASA umpire has taken the position that it's not a negotiable subject. Unfortunately, they are the only game in town and unless we want to provide our own umps we are S.O.L

Texas T. you make a good point. We have a wide range of ages and skill levels in our league. Most of the guys are not power hitters but still like to U2 when allowed.
Jan. 18, 2007
Gary Heifner
248 posts
This injury thing and u2s is a bunch of crap from those who can't hit a U2 and don't want others to use it. I have forgotten the exact numbers, but after the origianl banning and bitching I started counting the # of injuries that I personally observed to an infielder or pitcher from a batted ball. An injury was one in which the game was halted to see if the guy was OK. Over a few years and hundreds of games, the score was somewhere around 20+ from aluminum bats and around 6 or 7 from a U2. I saw 3 injuries that were treated with ice in Seattle this year resulting from bad hop grounders on wet fields. One was a U2 and 2 from other bats. Infielders are playing on the grass line vs. the U2 and pitchers are pretty much at the back of the 6' extension. Of the many I have talked to, the U2 is no big deal to them anymore. In answer to the original question, not a one of the above was due to a lack of reaction time. I saw a post about 3 years ago on this site where radar testing showed the U2 hit ball coming off the bat at only about 4 MPH faster than non U2 bats. I play on a pretty good team with average plus infielders. The U2 is really not a concern to them anymore as they have mentally adjusted to the fact that if you are in good fiedling position and watch the ball into the glove, the ball can be fielded. Several have noted the U2 hit ball gets there a little quicker if hit on the screws and gives them more time to make the throw to 1st. We have also noted that in tournies that allow the U2, there are one hell of a lot more balls hit to the outfielders and a lot fewer up the middle. The U2 if for drving a softball, not dinking singles.
Jan. 18, 2007
hornachec
Men's 55
50 posts
Hit the Gap
If ASA isn't listening to you, have you thought about trying a different organization? I see your are in Spokane, The Wenatchee league and Seattle league use SSUSA in Washington. They have a great insurance program, you can get balls for $28 a dozen and use the bats you want. If you want more information contact me at: jim-ssusa-wa@hotmail.com
I can also get you in touch with state UIC about training umpires in your area.
Jan. 18, 2007
jim16
Men's 65
173 posts
It seems that every time I post it causes controversy. I am not intending that to be the case here. However, I can tell you that I personally have been in a courtroom where the top ASA officials were on the record saying that any bat banning is left up to local officials. Local ASA officials can make any bat legal in the local leagues, still be insured and sanctioned by the ASA. The only limitation is that league champions can not go on to higher play and use the bats that are on the ban list. That means that if the league winner is then invited to a state or national championship by virtue of winning locally, then the higher entity's bat rule would be in effect.
If the natonal office would officially say that certain bats were "dangerous" they could be lible in a lawsuit. Remember that there are a lot of UII's still in play that have the official ASA stamp of approval. The officail statement is that the UII is banned because of "the integrity of the game". That means that too many players become home run hitters, it does not mean that the UII or any bat is too dangerous to allow it in competition
Jan. 19, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
Our league is divided into three divisions, National League, American League and Masters. The National is the higher skill level, American is lower and I believe Masters is over 65 or 70, not sure which.

I brought it to the attenetion to the league president and park director that the ASA bat rule states that the bats listed as approved are for "Championship play". They just scoffed at that.
Jan. 19, 2007
DCPete
242 posts
I guess ASA forgets that we use to use 50 COR balls which IMO were more dangerous off an aluminum bat than a 44 COR ball is off a U2.
Jan. 19, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Championship play....a two faced (sided), hypcritical rule book to say the least. The ASA book which is specifically written for tournament play that only lead to a state or national championship. Now is used for every excuse out there for any game played anywhere. If you ask about it chances are you will get one of these: no direct answer, or no complete answer or no answer at all. I've got all three forms from persons I know respect but quite frankley, not all that honest about it either.
But if on the other hand you think your local league team is going to move up the line and play in a national league championship where all the cities that had leagues were involved well I guess then the ASA could say it lead to national play, so the book is valid. Ya right.
Or that it is a blanket quide line. For sure it is modified all over, (rules and cities), everywhere you go, and not many are the same in different locations around the country.
Jan. 19, 2007
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
hey bruce why u gots to make the national league the higher one,we all know the american league is the better league :):):)


see ya in fl.
Jan. 19, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
I agree, Bob. Growing up I spent most of my teenage years in Columbus, Mississippi. All of us followed either the Yankees or Tigers, I guess because of the great players on each team. Everyone know of the Yankees and I grew to idolize Kaline, Colivito, Cash and others.
Now, living near Atlanta I hear more of the National league teams.
Don't the sportcasters refer to the National League as the Senior League?
Jan. 19, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
Thanks again for all the comments and feedback.

hornachec (Jim) I just sent you an e-mail with my phone #. Give me a call.

Jim 16: Great post. I will use this ammo when they come back and try to BS us, which I know they will do.

This whole ASA safety issue is crap. ASA still allows metal cletes in their men's division. I guess it's ok to slice someone open with your cletes, it's only a flesh wound.

Jan. 12, 2008
Juster1
1 posts
Just noticed your Senior League problem with high performance bats in Spokane Washington. You UMPS say too many injuries. In Modesto, CA we have a large senior league witih four age divisions, sactioned by the City of Modesto Parks and Rec Department.

And WE ALL get to use any bat we want with no restrictions. We have had injuries, but they are a variety of types not just from batting, and they are few and far between.

Most of the time it's the running that gets the players injured, strained, or otherwise exhausted.
Jan. 12, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
505 posts
Never seen one in senior ball since the U2 came out in our tourneyments down south.
Jan. 12, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
I played for a 50's Canadian team last year and the manager told me there was one death in a tournament he knew of, he was there watching games before playing. I believe the location was in the Ontario, Quibic area. That guy got got it in the head. I \do not know what age group it was.
But again it may of either been reaction time or non attentiveness.
Jan. 12, 2008
J R
183 posts
I am from Houston we play asa,for,safe outs etc.Then we modify Bolinger says all bats ok for league play, not for championship play.Last week an umpire was killed in Houston not u11,but at big league dreams,with usssa rules,it was the base umpire.I think we all should buy insurance from ssusa,then play senior softball,asa is designed for younger players.
Jan. 12, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
JR
I'm sorry to hear that. It's bad enough when someone gets wacked.
ASA and u-trip (USSSA) are geared for (lean towards) the younger set. This is one reason I'm against the non 50 plus players in here. There are places for them to go and they do. Yes, they won't be playing with the older guys, but their not seniors.
I also play U-trip, or did until last year. I still do ASA, but in a senior setting they are trying to do, but lack a senior outlook for the most part.
Jan. 13, 2008
hornachec
Men's 55
50 posts
Hit the Gap, Why not just go SSUSA in Spokane, They have a great insurance program, good price on balls and I'm sure the state UIC would be glad to come over and certify Umpires. Both Wenatchee and Puget Sound senior leagues have switched over to SSUSA in the past few years. Give Fran a call/e-mail and she will give you phone #'s of State Director and State Director of Umpires
Jan. 14, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
Till now our senior league has only allowed ASA bats. In the past 5 years I can't remember any injuries requiring hospitalization, maybe a few pitchers (me included) gettng hit on the leg.
Last week our board changed our bat rules to allow the Freak and Synergy 2. In addition to grandfathering these two bats the also will allow the Ultra 2 and Senior Combat!
I believe we only had 3 or 4 hrs last fall season. With these new bats the numbers should be greatly increased!
Jan. 14, 2008
FreshFish
32 posts
Two Windshields
Left center field Light
car door
Shingles off the picnic shelter
scoreboard

These count lol. ?
Jan. 14, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
The Left center field Light counts, the rest depends if they are beyond the hr fence.
Have you noticed at most tournaments that most people don't park in the first three or four rows of parking? There's a reason for that. ;)
Jan. 14, 2008
hitt2
354 posts
I also play in the league in Modesto Ca. Our league is a draft system, however the coaches in the draft know the tourney player who are dispersed evenly. Our league doesn't keep win / loss stats or have championships. Over a 26 week period we enjoy playing the game. There's no grossing from the umps about the bats. In the 4 years Iíve played in the league the injuries on the field Iíve seen have been for the most part running collisions, bad hops, and defensive miscues where the ball made first contact with mitt or a throwing error. In 4 years of tourney play Iíve seen 12+incidents where players were injured, due to collision with player another player, the fences/ poles, bad hops, errant throws and conditioning injuries. As for hit balls resulting in a injuries requiring medical attention maybe 2, and one where a player had a heart attack and died. . It also tends to be a player that hasn't condition himself for league play that gets injured. Most tourney player tend to maintain a conditioning program of some sort year round to assist in maintaining reaction skills Being allowed to use any bat also helps prepare the up and coming senior players wanting to play tourney level. Our league is like a test ground for bats and it a fun environment for every level of play.
Jan. 14, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
For myself 2.

1 - Little finger on left hand. Went to catch ball and it knock my glove off pushing my little finger back. This was in BP when the UII's first came out and didn't really know the power of these bats. From that point anyone with a Ultra didn't get pitches down the middle in BP.

2. This year hard shot off ankle in Phoenix Tournament. I blame the fact of not have a middle fielder more than I blame the bat. If we played with a middle fielder I would have just gotten out of the way of that hit and let the middle fielder get it.
Jan. 14, 2008
AlleninGa
Men's 60
113 posts
I haven't seen any.Although, I have heard a lot of tales about injuries concerning the U2 from people who haven't actually "seen any". Is it possible that most of the injuries occured off of legal bats or were contrived to further a point? After reading the comments of player's that have played a lot of games where the U2 was allowed, I'm even more convinced that it is not any more of a safety concern than any other "good bat". The entire "U2" issue seems to be greatly overstated.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners