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Discussion: Confiscated Bat Testing

Posted Discussion
April 29, 2007
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Confiscated Bat Testing
Does anyone know how 'challenged' bats in a tournament are tested? I am mainly interested in whether or not the testing is destructive, in the sense that the bat can't ever be used again in tournament play (assuming it is found to be unaltered). I have received conflicting information from friends I have asked.

Also, how long is the challenge victim deprived of the use of his bat?

Thanks for any help.
April 29, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JANO 23: This is a strange subject. In some cases, a coach, player, Ump, or the Field Director may ask to look @ the bat in question.

'THINGS to LOOK 4': 1) the paint 'job' 2) the End Cap 3) the Knob 4) is the bat in question a Balance or End Load 5) the bat in question, was that bat made w/ a pin in the knob 6) how was the bat used? by 1 or several players & after each use was the bat put back into a players bag, etc, etc. 7) when a ball was hit by the bat in question, what sound was made..... a loud crack; a pop; as if, a piece of glass was broken????? 8) the owner of the bat in question; what has been this persons history w/ bats & their hitting? 9) etc, etc, & I am sure that more reasons can be stated.

Some bats r returned in 10 minutes or less. Other bats r sent back to the manufactors 4 testing. This could take 1 to 4 wks. Again, some bats r then sent to a testing lab. This can add 1 wk to a few more months.

Hope this may help. The STONEMAN......
April 30, 2007
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Stoneman - Thanks for the helpful details. It's still not clear to me whether they do any destructive testing that would render the bat in question useless for tournament play. I was told by an 'authoritative' member of my team that in the recent tournament in Las Vegas, a player's bat could be challenged for a fee of $75. It would then be cut open for a view of the inside, and because of this it would subsequently be considered to be an altered bat, making it ineligible for further use (i.e., ruined). I'm just trying to find out if this is an accurate description of the current state of affairs.
April 30, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JANO 23: In the past, the Tournament Director, an U.I.C., or a Reg. Director, will look @ the bat in question. If, @ that time, there is some questions about that bat, the T.D, U.I.C., ETC, WILL ASK 4 THAT BAT.

If, the bat is not given up, the bats owner is then suspended. If, the bat is given up, that bat will be sent back to the manuf' of that bat. A recept is to be given to that bats owner, etc.

Once, the MFG, gets that bat, that bat is inspected. If, there is still questions, the bat owner, should be notify, that their bat will be sent to a test' lab & or tested by them (Miken, Easton, TPS, etc) & could be damaged.

If, the bat owner says no, that player is suspended. If, the bat owner agrees; that bat may be opened up @ the MFG or @ one of the test' labs. If, that bat is damaged & found not to be an ILLEGAL BAT, the assoc' that had that bat test, 'is to replace that bat.'

The cost to protest a bat & have that bat sent to the MFG, could run $3500 or $750. As far as LVSSA, that organiz' does not have a test' machine & would have to ask 4 some guidance.

LAST POINT:: Most of the Major Organiz', will not open a bat up on site. I believe that THE SUMMIT, has agreed that a bat in question, needs to be sent back to that bats MFG.

Then Miken, TPS, Wilson, Easton, etc, etc, will look @ that bat, may runs some test, or even send that bat in question to one of the test' labs.

Hope this does answer ones ? The STONEMAN..
April 30, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2582 posts
Two years ago I was told by SPA that the protest fee was $300. This covers testing, replacement if needed and postage.
April 30, 2007
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Stoneman & BruceinGA - Thank you for your helpful information. It seems outrageous to me that my irreplaceable Ultra II could be confiscated and destroyed unless I want to be suspended. I will have to take comfort in the hope that the sequence of inspections would be enough to prove the legality of the bat. I don't know if Miken still has any Ultra IIs lying around. I wouldn't consider an Ultra II Advanced to be a fair replacement. Thanks again for the info.
May 1, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2582 posts
Jano23, you asked if Miken had any U2's in stock. A friend found a dealer in Chattanooga that suposedly had several for sale at $175 each. He collected money from me and others but when he got to the dealer's store he was told that Miken wouldn't let him sell them. What I don't know is if he had to return them to Miken.
I told my friend this may have been a made up story since a new U2 would bring at least $100 more on eBay. I'll never know.
May 1, 2007
bogie
Men's 55
141 posts
I think it would be fine to let someone visually inspect the bat and check the balance point, that would eliminate the painted U1 or endloaded U2...and could show if there has been visual tampering of the endcap, etc...but I would hope there would be ramificiations on the other side, keeping the accuser from playing a "mind game" with another team that is on a hot streak. It would be unsportsmanlike to just use the "illegal bat" trump card, at just the critical time...to get into a hot hitters head and get him so mad, he can't concentrate on the plate appearance. Likewise, if a team only has a couple of U2s left...would the rule let the other team....request testing on both bats and leave the opponent swinging something else? The U2, is the 2nd hottest bat I have ever swung, including every titanium made...The best was the U1, in my opinion. And I understand that the U1 was the same bat or very similar, with the U2 having less endload perhaps and the rod in the bat handle. So a visual and physical check of the balance point, a magnet check to see that the rod is in place, will verify its not a U1. U2s break fast enough, I really doubt if anyone is insane enough to try to "shave" the walls of a U2. I have been under the belief that doctored U2 and combat senior bats are at a rare minimum...certainly ASA is where I could visualize seeing the most altering..... for senior ball the Ultra2 visual test, magnet and balance point would seem to suffice.Just my opinion.
Ken, Roberts 50 major
May 1, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2582 posts
Great post Bogie. I agree that in a tournament/league that only allows ASA bats the need for carefully watching for illegal/altered bats would be greater that in a SSUSA or SPA tournament that allows 1.20 bpf bats.
May 17, 2007
MikeC
Men's 55
38 posts
Can not say for sure how Senior ball is going to test the bats but during ASA 35 & Over Nationals and at Iowa's State Tournaments they tested each bat with a pressure gauge type of device. Basically they put them in a vise looking like unit and then tighten it to a certain point and it will give you a reading. They can tell by the pressure and rebound speed of the test if it was legal or not. I had a Freak and new Ultra II checked and the Freak tested hotter than the Ultra but within legal standards.

Testing takes 5 minutes a bat and nothing was damaged.
May 17, 2007
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
Where is the real Stoneman and what did you do to him???? No way you wrote the above Stoney.
May 17, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
589 posts
I agree. Just because one guy gives a limp wristed slap to someone's style of writing there is NO reason Soneman should alter his approach. I've enjoyed decyphering his posts and the content is always interesting.

R u o/ thr Stoneman?
May 17, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
MIKE C & WHAT R U SMOK' DAX: THE 1st batch of FREAKS were the gray Ultra's, painted black & had a 1 to 2 1/2 oz pin installed into the knob. Again, the 1st batch of FREAKS, were 1 to 2 oz heavier. (This comes from MIKEN.)

So DAX & PETE..... what's the poop? Would u believe that this test' machine may have been made "BY" EASTON. Cost, I was told was $3,500.

Also, last time that I talked to an ISA or EASTON REP, it took 5 minutes to set up one of these machines.

O.K., I have answered. Is u'll happy?

The STONEMAN.......... say what?
May 18, 2007
MikeC
Men's 55
38 posts
Hate to argue with someone as wise as you Stoneman but not all Freaks are Ultra's.

I was the TD for the 35 & Over Masters Nationals and TD for the 2006 Men's State Tournament and watched them check/test bats. It took them 3-5 minutes per bat.

Might not matter anyway as I doubt if SPA, SSUSA or any other organization is going to spend the money to do the testing at each tournament.

If you have to cheat when you are already allowed to use a ULTRA II then you should be banned for life!
May 20, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
MIKE C: I was talk' about the 1st batch of FREAKS. This would be the FREAKS, that were made right after the Gray Ultras, got banned. I am not sure just when the last batch of FREAKS, were produce. This last batched, was ran in late 2003 or sometime in 2004????

My point here. If, one breaks a FREAK that is several yrs old; (which would have to be about 3 to 4 yrs old); for the early batch of bats , the composite material is an off yellowish color. Again, if, one breaks a 'newer" FREAK, (last few batched); the composite material is blackish & not the off yellowish, as the Gray Ultra's & 1st, batch of FREAKS.

Mike C, again, I am only stat' what indiviuals @ MIKEN & SGMA, have told me.

As for the LIFE TIME BAN, I have a great deal of concerns on this area. WHY? I was once told by a couple of SGMA, members, that a few yrs ago, a go' out of business did the follow': SENT REPLACEMENT BATS, that were XX-HOT & painted these bats as replacement bats for bats that were not "LIVELY". This company was to cheap to run both styles of bats. SO, PLAYERS, got a HOT bat, that did not have the proper paint & DECALS.

GOOD LUCK............ The STONEMAN....
May 22, 2007
Joncon
285 posts
""This would be the FREAKS, that were made right after the Gray Ultras, got banned. ""



Right after they banned the gray Ultras the started making the Ultra II.........right?


When the U2's were banned they started making the freaks.



Miken really did dtir up the schit didn't they? Five years later the list of legal/illegal bats too difficult to keep up with.

By the way, I saw a u2 in leauge play last night. The ump didn't even flinch. We were watching and were going to say something but the team using the bat was down 18 2 in the last inning.
May 22, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JONCON: I believe that we r in or around the same time frame, as far as the FREAK.

ASA, & their bat ban' ......! It is somewhat funny, that ASA, is the only organiz' that used the "new" ASTM 2219 Bat Test' Standard. When this ASTM 2219, was introduced, several members of SGMA, informed ASA, that their 'new" standard, ASTM 2219, was greatly flawed.

Could this be the reason why, ISA, NSA, U-TRIP, & 3 Senior Organiz', follow the revised ASTM 1890 Bat test' Standard?

Also, r the new 2006 & 2007 bats, as hot or hotter than the 2002-2004 bats before the BAT BANNING, begain???

Just think, next yr ASA Bats will be either 96 MPH or 94 MPH, bats. This is down from the 120 MPH, the 100 MPH, & the present 98 MPH ASA bats. I hope that I have better think', than to play in an ASA Event next yr.

GOOD LUCK...... THRU OUT THE YR. The STONEMAN
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