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Discussion: Teams Playing Down

Posted Discussion
June 13, 2007
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
Teams Playing Down
what is your opinion about the associations allowing teams to play down an age group and at a lower class. I know of two teams that are a 55 major plus team being allowed to play 50 major and a 55 major team allowed to play 50 AAA. This seams to set a bad precedent to me. What do you think?
June 13, 2007
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
It is not right. The only way it should even be considered is the Major+ team is a border line Major+. But who is going to determine that.
June 13, 2007
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
My understanding was if that 55 major team dropped down to play 50 aaa they could not add 50 age players to thier roster. I think i know what team you might be talking about and i believe they had a couple 50 players with them. And that is not right.
June 13, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
It's not as simple as it looks. This happened in Reno this year with a 55-Major being allowd to play down with the 50-AAA. The reason was that they wwere the only team in the 55-Major to sign up for the tournament. One age down and one skill level down should be ok, but in this one, they mopped up the rest od the other 16 teams. I understand that sometimes the number of teams make the decision hard, but what can you do?
June 13, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
Seems to me they should have played against the 50 major teams. There are teams out there that "cherry pick" tourneys knowing that they pretty much have a walk through to pick off a cheap TOC invite or ring. Maybe they should have played exibition only with the TOC invite going to the 2nd place team as they undoubtedly earned it.
Maybe in fairness to them and the other teams the TD should have imposed a 2 week cut off date and informed the team involved they could either play exibition only or withdraw from the tournament. Stuff like this happens much too frequently. For all the talk of the associations re: we're doing something about it here we are in the beginning of the season with the same problems popping up. I think I could almost guess which team this could be.
It would track with last years behavior.
June 13, 2007
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Humm, I guess you need to put yourself in the position of the team being asked to play down. Most likely they signed up to play whoever shows in their division. This has happened to me twice recently and we thought the TD treated us fair and we felt it was fair to the other teams.

The first was the ToC in which there were only 2, 55major plus teams. They made us play the 50 major plus teams but gave us an additional defensive player. We thought this was fair. Well, we won the thing. However, the other 55 major plus team didn't do as well so obviously it wasn't an overwhelming advantage. The other thing is we also had a great tournament with almost all of our players having a career type weekend. Sometimes that happenes. The next tournament they let us play the 50 major teams not the 50 major plus, didn't allow us the extra defensive player and also had a 60 major plus team in the bracket. Guess what, we got our butts kicked and the 60 major plus team won the Spring Nationals.

Well, in theory we should have walked thru those guys. Guess what though. We just hit so so, and after two there you go. I thought both tournaments were fair but the out comes were really determined by who was hot with the bat.

I will say this though, in my opinion, a good 50 major plus team will beat a good 55 major plus team 6 out of 10. You can say what you want, but I play both, and the 50s are faster, more powerful at the plate, have better defensive skills and have a bigger pool of players to pull from so they definitely have an advantage.

Pete, don't worry about a 55 major or major plus team sneaking into the ToC because when they get there the competition will be stiff and if they are not up to par they'll be gone quick. I agree a 55 team playing down should not be allowed to pick up any 50 players.
June 13, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
Audie - I was not thinking about the team that went there to meet any and all challengers as a major team. In all fairness the TD should have not let them in.

This is what I see. I see 13 legitimate AAA teams that went to qualify for a berth at the TOC. Each of these teams had to spend:

$450.00 Entrance fee per team $ 5,850.00
$8400.00 per team if 14 players spent $600.00 each for
the weekend at 13 teams works out to
$109,200.00
$5,850.00 total entrance fees for t grand total of
$115,050.00 invested.

So 13 teams made this investment thinking they had a shot of being #1 in the AAA qualification when in the end result NOT ONE AAA TEAM QUALIFIED to go to the TOC.

So basically the 13 AAA teams were playing exibition to get beat by a team they should not have had to play in the first place.

I'm not worried about the team that won I'm just showing what happened to the others and this happens too often.

I lined the numbers up math style but don't know how this will end up.
June 14, 2007
Elmo
Men's 50
69 posts
We are a 55 major team based out of Georgia. Instead of going to Kansas city we looked into the possibility of playing 50 AAA in Dalton Georgia. We checked with Ridge and he said we could not. See everyone in Kansas City, I hope.
June 14, 2007
Sweet P
Men's 60
169 posts
II feel teams playing in down in a lower age bracket s/b allowed to play one level lower, when using players from their age division only. As far as dropping out of a tournament, this is very difficult and expensive if you are traveling out of town (airfare/hotels). Most teams make their travel plans for out of town tournaments 2-months in advance, which make’s dropping out of tournament at the last moment because you may have to play against a different age group or division impractical!!
June 14, 2007
JOHN BOB
Men's 60
76 posts
We are a 55 major team in Ky & want to play in Midwest Championship in Champain in July.I just was told by TD today that there was NO other 55 major team entered so I ask to play in 50aaa was told maybe will let me know.We will have a very hard time in lower age group but at least we'll be able to play.
I thought if a 50 major team moved to 55 with 6 or more players from 50 major roster they had to play 55 major.
June 14, 2007
Sweet P
Men's 60
169 posts
That's the way the rule was explained to us. Per the SS-USA staff, 6 or more players from a teams previous roster carries the same classification or higher. This means 6 players from a 50 Major team moving up to the 55 division would be rated 55 Major or Major Plus. They would have to play at the Major/Major Plus level until re-classified by the Senior Rating board.
June 14, 2007
conman44
13 posts
Guys I'm the coach of the team in reno,,, My thoughts are that the 50AAA team should of gotten a berth and we did play well but remember all our players are 55+. That makes some of the guys we played against up to 10 years younger than us. We were lucky to go thru the bracket undefeated, If acouple of the other teams had not had to play so many games it could of been very different..Pete we also had money we all put out to go to the tourney.We've always been self-sponsoring.. I call Sacramento about the 50AAA berth right after I got back from the tourney....
June 14, 2007
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
come on conman we had to drop a player and we've never won any worlds like you guys have! anyway way to win this one you guys hit great all day long

M
ps tell sandy hi!
June 14, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
It's not the teams' that sign up in good faiths fault necessarily. In this case the 55 Major team should have had to play the 50 Major teams just like what happened in the TOC in February. The AAA division would have been left intact for fair competition. With 13 legitmate teams a good champion would have resulted and nothing would have been tainted as it is now.
The AAA team that placed second should be the only one going to the TOC from that division. I believe Conman is sincere in saying he made a call to Sacto. Let's see if Sacto has the b-lls to make this right. Like other issues ducked and dodged it will be discarded while they serve up window dressing as supposed action.
June 14, 2007
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Ok ,grerat post for thinking about a solution. What would be fair? I would suggest that the 55 major plus team drop to 55 major and give the major teams an extra infielder or 5 runs. Or drop them to 50 major plus and give them an extra fielder or 5 runs. Is that fair?
June 14, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
I think the 55 Major playing the 50 Major with the same choices that were layed out in the TOC would have leveled the playing field much more than what was (wasn't) done. The association already had the successful template from the TOC which is now the standard the other tournaments are judged by. Why mess it up here less than 4 months later?
The only other alternative would've been to give the AAA teams the choice of the extra fielder (or 5 runs I think) for the teams that had to play the 55 Major team which most certainly would have changed the order of finish but it seems to me the Major team was misplaced to start with.
We had the promise that teams were going to be scrutinized and NO teams would be allowed to play down and now at one of the largest and oldest senior tourneys in the country that same organization arranges/manipulates exactly that. Was it very poor management/favoritism giving one team free pass at the expense of 13 other teams? What kind of sense (and message) comes out of that? Gee, there was only 3 AA teams, maybe they should have let AAA teams compete in that bracket too. Same logic, poor result.
June 15, 2007
conman44
13 posts
Again guys I beleive a 50AAA team should of earned a berth. We were happy to play in this division just to be able to see different teams, it gets old playing the same people every tourney.. Now lets remember the 50 guys are younger, probably in better shape,faster,and can throw harder. With this said all us old farts have going is that we've had 5 more years to learn where to hit. Not being able to play anymore I just love going out and enjoying the game, lets keep this fun.
June 15, 2007
mad dog
Men's 65
3949 posts
why not give both teams the TOC bid(highest finishing 50 AAA and the 55 team),they do it for the east and west regionals to get the east-west games at the worlds.
congrats dave on the win.
June 15, 2007
EG Fred
Men's 65
17 posts
I play on the 50AAA team that lost to this Major team in the finals. We worked our way thru the losers braket and beat each team that was sent to the losers braket by these guys. By the time we got to the finals we were pretty much out of gas. We (as a team) think we deserve the AAA invitation to the TOC. As of this time, we havn't heard if we will get the invitation or that there just won't be a AAA representative team from this tournament at the TOC's.
June 15, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
Congratulations to your team on a strong tournament - you should be the only team going from that division. No AAA team finished above you. The team that did din't belong there. It's pretty fishy the way it was pre-thought out and orchestrated. Something's not right. It seems like you guys should be the only ones to go. You were playing on a crooked table.
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