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Discussion: TECH\' INFOR on COMPOSITE BATS & REACTION TIME.

Posted Discussion
June 25, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
TECH' INFOR on COMPOSITE BATS & REACTION TIME.
Does anyone wants to read what has been known since 2002-2003?

A Composite Softball Bat Revolution: Why the Pitcher has Little Time to React to a Batted-Ball
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------By:
Mark McDowell, Ph. D.
Michael V. Ciocco, Ph.D.
Bryan Morreale

Abstract:
In the past few years, there has been a composite bat construction revolution in the softball bat industry. While composite material bats have enabled softball bat performance to increase much to the delight of hitters, they can pose a significant safety risk to defensive players and especially the pitcher. A controlled experiment using two composite softball and two wooden softball bat models has been conducted in order to present experimental data on the field performance of various bat/ball combinations. Three types of softballs were used in this study; low-compression, cork-centered softballs, mid-compression polyurethane softballs and high-compression polyurethane softballs ranging from 1134 to 2389 N/0.64 cm (255 to 537 lbs/0.25 in) compression. Three experienced softball players were chosen as test subjects for this study. Initial batted-ball velocities ranged from 126.2 to 164.3 km/h (78.4 to 102.1 mph), corresponding to an available pitcher reaction time ranging from 0.456 to 0.350 seconds. The goal of this study is to present the potential safety and injury risks associated with using composite softball bats in the sport of softball.

Introduction
Over the past few years, the sport of softball has undergone a revolution in bat construction. When the sport was originated, wood was the major construction material of softball bats. In the 1980s, softball bats constructed from aluminum-based materials were introduced followed by titanium-based bats in the mid 1990s. However, the excessive batted-ball velocities (BBV) resulting from the use of titanium-based bats led to them being declared illegal and unsafe by all of the major governing bodies of softball due to their increased injury potential. From the late 1990s to the present, bats constructed of composite materials are the most commonly used bats and have been responsible for countless injures and even fatalities in the sport (Dawson, R., 2003). Composite softball bats are currently being used at all levels of softball from fast pitch softball in the Olympics, collegiate and high school levels to the recreational weekday slowpitch softball league. Although there are over 19 million softball players in the U.S. (Ramsey J. and Smith G., 2003), there is no national database on injuries and fatalities in the sport and this complicates the issue of establishing a national safety standard for the sport of softball.

The authors have conducted a batted-ball field test study using three different compression ranges of softballs in order to show the potential risks involved when using wood and composite softball bats by measuring the BBV for each of the bat/ball combinations and using these speeds to calculate the time a pitcher has to react to a batted-ball, which the authors call available pitcher reaction time (APRT).

Method
READ ARTICLE:

Softballs
READ ARTICLE:

Softball Bats
The composite bats chosen for the study were a 850 g (30 oz) Easton“ Synergy+ and a 794 g (28 oz) Miken“ Freak model. The wooden bats chosen were a 850 g (30 oz) TPS“ and a 850 g (30 oz) BWP“ Maple model. These bats were selected due to their popularity amongst recreational softball players and were purchased from retail sporting goods stores.

Batted-ball velocity measurements
READ ARTICLE:

Pitching
A Jugsģ Professional softball pitching machine capable of accurately and reliably pitching a softball in the 26 to 40 km/h (16 to 25 mph) range through the hitting zone was used. This range was used in order to simulate the actual pitch speeds that occur in a slopitch softball game.

Available Pitcher Reaction Time: Using the fact the pitcher's mound in slowpitch softball is 15.24 m (50 ft) away from home-plate; the available pitcher reaction time (APRT) for a particular bat-ball combination can be calculated once the BBV is recorded. The APRT is a safety metric that can be used to determine if a bat-ball combination is considered safe or unsafe. As a general rule, the higher the BBV's, the lower the APRT's, and thus, the higher the risk of injury.

Results
The initial BBV and APRT data is listed in Tables 2 through Table 6. The initial BBV using cork-centered, mid- and high-compression softballs using the wooden softball bats ranged from 126.0 to 136.8 km/h (78.3 to 85.0 mph), which translates into an available pitcher reaction time ranging from 0.456 to 0.421 seconds. The initial BBV using cork-centered, mid- and high-compression softballs using the composite softball bats ranged from 143.5 to 164.3 km/h (89.2 to 102.1 mph), which translates into an available pitcher reaction time ranging from 0.401 to 0.350 seconds. It should be noted that at the time of this study, the two largest softball associations, the United States Specialty Sports Association (USSSA) and the Amateur Softball Association (ASA) of America mandated that any bat achieving an initial BBV of 137.2 km/h (85.2 mph), which translates into an APRT of 0.420 seconds (USSSA, 2003), (ASA, 2003) is considered unsafe. Based on our data, the composite bats would be considered unsafe for all balls tested while the wooden softball bats would be considered safe for all balls tested.

Discussion and Implications
The main finding of this study is that unsafe batted-ball velocities were achieved using composite softballs bats. The initial BBV of the composite bats were as much as 27.2 km/h (16.9 mph) higher than the softball association's goal of 137.2 km/h (85.2 mph), which translates into an available pitcher reaction time of 0.420 seconds. However, very little research has been done with respect to quantifying how much time a pitcher, or any player for that matter, needs to safely defend themselves from a batted ball. To date, there have been three published studies in the sport of baseball using ball exit speeds and APRT.

A recent study [Nicholls, et al., 2003] investigated player safety concerning ball exit speed for the sport of baseball and concluded that the maximum safe initial batted-ball velocity that a pitcher can react to is approximately 148 km/h (92 mph), which translates into an APRT of 0.425 seconds. They also concluded that a "certified" metal bat swung by an experienced hitter may produce ball exit velocities exceeding that demonstrated by a robotic hitting machine, which is currently used for establishing safe batted-ball velocities. A second study [Owings, et al., 2003] was conducted investigating the available pitcher reaction time as a consideration in design constraints for baseballs and baseball bats for various age groups. They found that for the 16-year age group, a minimum reaction time of 0.409sec. is necessary to reduce the potential for serious or catastrophic injury. A third study conducted by the NCAA tested a variety of bats on a specially designed batting machine located at the University of Massachusetts in Lowell, [Mississippi State University, 2002]. The recommendation from this study was to drop the exit speed to no more than 149.7 km/h (93 mph) in collegiate baseball, which translates into an APRT of 0.420 seconds.

Two recent studies [Hultsch, et al., 2002] and [Luchies, et al., 2002] address the differences in reaction time between younger and older adults and conclude that reaction time is considerably reduced or varied as a person gets older. Using this research on reaction time and the results of Nicholls and Owings, it can be theorized that when composite bats are in use and a ball is hit directly back at the pitcher or infielder, this can pose a significant risk for injury to older adults which comprise the majority of the millions of recreational softball players.

The results from the composite bat data show that none of the average pitcher response times are slower than the published results for the sport of baseball. In fact the worst case, composite/high-compression ball/BT3, has an APRT of 0.357 sec., which is over 18% lower than the suggested value of 0.425 sec.

For the wooden bat, for all the balls, the APRTs are very close to or better than those suggested by published baseball studies. The lowest APRT is 0.421 sec. and the highest is 0.457 sec. When compared to the wooden softball bats, the composite bats outperform them by as much as 30% which should at least lead to a meaningful discussion on the safety of the sport.

The implications of this study are that the use of composite softball bats is creating an unnecessary safety risk for players and that many players, coaches, league directors and parents are probably not aware of the risk associated with the use of composite softball bats.

Conclusions
A controlled field-test study analyzing the performance of composite and wooden softball bats along with using low-, mid- and high-compression softballs was conducted in order to analyze the various bat/ball combinations. Batted-ball velocity was measured and available pitcher response time calculated and compared to recommended safety limits imposed on the sport as well as published baseball safety studies. The results from this study concluded that using composite softball bats, batted-ball velocities exceeded the recommended safety limits by as much as 27.2 km/h (16.9 mph) or 0.070 seconds. It can be concluded that regardless of the ball used, composite bats may pose an increased safety risk to defensive players, especially the pitcher, in the path of a batted-ball hit.

References
Amateur Softball Association of America (2003). ASA Bat Testing Procedure (ASA 2000). URL: http://www.softball.org
ASTM F 1888-02 (2002). Standard Test Method for Compression-Displacement of baseballs and Softballs. ASTM International.
Dawson, R. (2003). Blinding Speed. WISH TV-8, Indianapolis. URL:http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=%20%201274912.
Hultsch, D. F., S. W. MacDonald and R. A. Dixon. 2002. Variability in reaction time performance of younger and older adults. The Journals of Gerontology, Series B 57(2): 101.
Luchies, C. W., J. Schiffman, L. G. Richards, M. R. Thompson, D. Bazuin, and A. J. DeYoung. 2002. Effects of age, step direction, and reaction condition on the ability to step quickly. The Journals of Gerontology, Series A 57(4): M246.
Mississippi State University (2002). Study helps give pitchers more time to react. University Relations News Bureau. URL: http://msuinfo.ur.msstate.edu/msu_memo/1999/02-08-99/bats.htm
Nicholls, R.L., Elliot, B.C., Miller, K. and Koh, M. (2003). Bat Kinematics in Baseball: Implications for Ball Exit Velocity and Player Safety. Journal of Applied Biomechanics, 19, 283-294.
Owings, T. M., Lancianese, S. L., Lampe, E. M., and Grabiner, M. D. Influence of Ball Velocity, Attention, and Age on Response Time for a Simulated Catch. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., 2003, Vol. 35, No. 8, pp. 1397-1405.
Ramsey J. and Smith G. (2003). Serious Slowpitch Softball. Florida: Softball Magazine
United States Specialty Sports Association (2003). Bat Performance Factor Test. URL: http://www.usssa.com
Table 1
IS ANYONE LISTENING???? The STONEMAN
June 25, 2007
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
I have read this before . Everyone basically has to know this . Senior Softball would probably die if they ever dummied the bats down too much . Not enough people satisfied with just hitting basehits for the rest of their life . Obviously it would be better for the pitchers and infielders . Also , I can`t see it happening , because of the $$$$`s . Too much money made selling semi-disposable bats and fewer teams would mean fewer dollars for the tournament directors .
June 25, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
142 posts
Stoneman, this is great information. My question is why is there no body of evidence to show that more batted ball injuries are in fact occuring as a result of the composite bats. I haved played a ton of softball in the last 35 years and have not personally seen an increase it nor have I heard about it. I recently had the opportunity to talk to one of the heads of one of the Senior Softball organizations and posed the same question. The answer was that they are not seeing any increase in batted ball injuries.

If you have information to show that the number of batted ball injuries has increased significantly as a result of the composite bats, I would love to see it. I'm sure it would put to rest a lot of the bickering and debate on this board.

I'm not advocating for or against composite bats but until someone can can bring some hard batted ball injury statistics to the table, they're here to stay.
June 25, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
HIT THE GAP: SGMA, 4 the next 3 yrs, will sell NON-members DATA (facts) on 22 SPORT INJURIES. The 2007 DATA, can be brought for $125. Softball, Baseball, Badmitten, Football (tackle & touch), Soccer, etc. r some of the 22 sports.

One can go to: WWW.SGMA.COM This site will tell one how to buy or down load. Dur' the past several yrs, DATA has been compiled. Sliding---- causes 71% of Baseball & Softball injuries.

As far as deaths in Softball, I believe that there r 16 Sports that have a higher "DEATH RATE." One can also, look up the NCAA's INJURY REPORTS & collect data & more sites.

Hope I can help.......... The STONEMAN...
June 26, 2007
DCPete
228 posts
The reason there is no data indicating more injuries with composite bats is because there HAVEN'T been more injuries with composite bats. This is because we've gone from a 50/48 cor ball with aluminum bats to a 44/40 cor ball with composite bats. This has kept the batted ball speed about the same plus the 44 cor balls aren't as hard as the old 50 cor rocks. Remember, the bat companies didn't start making composite bats until the balls were dummied down; they didn't need to invest the extra time and expense making composites when just about any aluminum bat was capable of hitting a 48 cor ball out of the park. And Foothills is absolutely correct - the more you take the HR out of play the less participation senior softball will have.
June 26, 2007
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
I would think that the ansewer to the ???? is have the
insurance rates gone up (way-up) more after we started
using Composite Bates. I would think the insurance companys would know what the rate of injury is and if
it has gone up the cost to buy insurance would go up
and the TD would stop letting us use the composites
in their tournaments
Wes
June 26, 2007
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Stoneman,
Thanks for the good info. This makes a good case for those who ridicule the allowing of hotter bats (ultra/ combat) in senior softball than in. competitive softball. Iíve been watching this board for some time now and have seen lots of conversation on hitting the middle/illegal bats- safety issues etc..

Wouldnít it make sense to ban all double wall and composite bats and move the fences in to say 275 feet? Maybe even closer (say 250) for the older age groups. You would still have the homerun- which everyone likes. You know how they say that 50 is the new 40. Well 275 would be the new 300. And you could still hit middle, which some players (both hitters and good defensive pitchers) like. There would be a onetime cost to purchase temporary fencing by tds.

I know many of the rec leagues in my area are going to single walls. And if you think about it the skill level of seniors really is more in keeping with rec league players than competitive tourney players.
Mango
June 26, 2007
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
Did the first big post say anything important, I just can not read thru something like that. Probably good info though.
Some above ask the question why people want to do things like they did in their 20's (HIT)? WELL, IT IS FUN.
When an outfielder sneaks in on you and you turn him around. That is great. When one goey yard, that is fun.
The real time for injury I have seen in 34 years of softball was when a ball called something like T2000 ???
I pitched and did not blink with that ball.
Have fun.
June 27, 2007
MaverickAH
59 posts
Interesting study that's now a bit long in the tooth technology-wise. The main questions I have regarding it are:

1] Why were metal bats excluded?

2] The BBS #'s for cork & high comp balls with wood bats are almost identical while they decrease for mid comps.(???) Composites show a steady increase in BBS from cork to mid comp to high comp with composites. I'd like further explaination as to why this is so.......

McDowell is one of the progenitors of BSR Inc (formerly B&N). Their whole thing is bat & ball safety so their conclusions don't surprise me. I will say though that the comparion of wood to composite is an unrealistic one in this day & time.

Does anyone know what it takes before an injury makes it to the point where it becomes a statistic? Let's just say that it take a medical response or insurance claim before it would be reported as such & only a small percentage of those actually get reported! The vast majority of injuries do not require a medical response & are therefore never considered. Near misses (the ball whizzing by an infielders ear that he never saw.......) are never reported! If anyone thinks that injuries aren't actually up since the use of composite bats is just not thinking rationally!

- Composite bats are undeniably hotter......
- They are being made with 13+" sweetspots........

What this means is that more balls are coming off these bats harder & faster. Not a big leap at all to think that there is an increase in injuries & I've personally observed such an increase!

I advocate that the associations put in place guidelines to restrict sweetspot size. There is absolutely no reason to have a sweetspot any bigger than 5-6" IMHO. Put some amoount of skill back in the game........
June 27, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
142 posts
Gary 19. As I stated in my earlier post, I have played for over 35 years and I honestly don't think there are any more HR's hit today than when I first started playing.

Even using a U2, you still have to hit the ball perfectly to get it out. If you look at the big picture, 98% of senior softball players cannot hit a ball over a 300' fence. I play in a league with over 200 senior players and I can only think of 4 or 5 that can hit it out on an occasional basis. Consequently, pitcher reaction time and excessive HR's are not a big issue.

What skews everyones perception is that when you get to the bigger tournaments, you are looking at the cream of the crop of senior players. Guys that were always the better players on their teams in their younger days. The other thing that everyone overlooks, is that hopefully as you get older, you become a better hitter. I took me about 25 years, but I finally learned how to generate power in my swing.

So, in closing, I don't think it's the bat, it's the batter. You still have to hit the ball.
June 27, 2007
BMoney
37 posts
I know the person whom originated this research.He is a good guy and a NASA engineer ;however he was a close personal friend of Ray DeMarini and was paid by him and put on clinics with ALL DeMarini equipment. That is why there is no comparisons to Metal bats. He himself was a very good Major/A young player who could hit a B52 about 425 ft. So he was/is always against composites.Called them cheater bats.

Just my input on this.

BMoney
June 27, 2007
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Hey Gary 19,
The municipalities wouldnít pay to move the fences in. The senior organizations that throw tourneys would buy temporary plastic fencing. They could then use them at any and all fields that they use and move them for the appropriate age group They could use these on open fields as well as fenced fields of 300 or greater. Itís not that expensive and itís a one-time purchase. When I first started playing competitive ball in the 70's and 80's temporary fencing was commonplace because so many of the field were open fields.

As far as sense of achievement. I can hit a ball over 300 feet with a single wall bat, but not nearly as often as with a double wall or composite. And forget about the U2. Iíve hit balls out off the hands. And guys Iíve played with that NEVER hit homeruns in their career when they were young are now hitting them over 300 with the U2.

A homerun used to be something where only the true power hitters could hit the ball out of the park with any consistency. Now theyíre so commonplace its nothing.
Mango
June 27, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
142 posts
Gary19: You are right that the composites have a larger sweet spot but again, for the vast majority of senior players, it makes very little difference. Most of the chatter on this board comes from those very serious players for whom the senior composites can and do make a difference but I don't think we can tar all of senior softball with the same brush. The many and varied suggested rule and equipment changes we see on this board are put out there by a very small number of serious players. The average softball player doesn't give a hoot. Hell, most of them don't know what bats are legal and what are not. Many of them don't really know the rules.

I normally fall on your side of the issues as I hate to see all of the silly changes to the game and the middle is always open in my book. However, the composites are here to stay. It's all about the MONEY.

I'm all for going back to wood bats when golf goes back to persimmon woods and when tennis goes back to the small racquet.

I too noticed that the study that Stoneman mentions, compares wood bats with composites. Not a good comparison.
June 27, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Gary19- Gary19- You're You're double double posting posting. Try Try logging logging out out and and logging logging back back in in. It It might might help help!!
June 27, 2007
the wood
1071 posts
The study that originated this thread was based upon the pitcher being 50 feet from the batter. I would presume that a pitcher standing 56-63 feet from the batter would have 12-23% better reaction time, if everything were linear.
A lot has been stated about composite bats v. the older metal bats. I personally like the newer stuff but am willing to play with double walls and other non-composites... but not wooden bats though. I play in a senior league in Long Beach, CA, that has a wide disparity of age and talent levels. We're not allowed any bats that are double wall, two piece or composites... and we use a fairly weak ball (Diamond Flyer 44/375). I still enjoy playing in it but would like to see better isolation of the species (age & talent). We do occasionally play with a 260' fence and there are 2-3 HRs per game. With better players this would increase but, due to the bat/ball combination, it wouldn't be HR Derby... the fences are also 12' high... and the air in Long Beach is thick. Perhaps in a dryer climate the fences ought to be further. The guys with some power are the only ones that hit HRs there.This supports Mango's point, IMO.
As for injuries to pitchers... our pitcher's forearm was broken in 4 places in 2001. The hitter used a Demarini double wall and the ball was a Blue Dot 47/525. It was a low and outside pitch, which is the toughest for the batter to control. We didn't feel that it was intentional at all... so when he apologized, we felt that he was genuine.
I will still hit the middle even with an Ultra 2 but I do not aim at the pitcher. If I get too close, I will let him know that it was not intentional. If he's cool with it, fine. If he isn't, I will still know that it was unintentional... I can't control the pitcher's feelings. If they want to retaliate by hitting it at me (1B) I will be wearing a glove. If they want to hit it at our pitcher he'll probably catch it. If they want to make me drink a beer as their own form of rebuke, I'll take my punishment like a man... and I will likely reciprocate. :-)
Bob Woodroof
June 27, 2007
docswear
Men's 55
97 posts
Woody.... I don't recall but did I buy the beer or did you? You are the one and only .... I do recall apologizing but don't recall your taking it like a man..(<:.......I still have nightmares.... not about the hit but about seeing the results a couple of days later.
ntty...... docswear
June 27, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
THE WOOD: R we going to get into it again?? There r many articles that state the following: 1) NO BALL is SAFE, in the 1st 60 to 70 ft. 2) A 40 cor ball, travels 3.57 MPH faster thru the INFIELD. 3) A pitcher or infielder, DOES NOT have .4' of a second to react; in the 1st 60 to 70 ft. 4) A SINGLE WALL Bat & a DOULBE WALL Bat can both send a softball the same distance.

The DOUBLE WALL bat, will hit more balls consistly farther.
A SINGLE WALL bat will hit as far as a DOUBLE WALL bat, but, not as often... I hope that this POINT is understood.

BOB, how was u're party that u sent me direction,but, NO INVITE??? Ho-Ho!!

The STONEMAN
June 27, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
To be hit or not to be hit.
That is the question.
Whether it's nobler in Woody's mind
that the pitcher be spared the
slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...

I saw Bill Ruth get one of the hardest shots
I've ever seen hit back at a pitcher
in Reno a couple of weeks ago
and he snagged it.
Bravo, Bill.
It was scary and would have hurt him, badly.
I was both worried and impressed at the same time.

Stay away from my pitcher for all the right reasons
or you just put a target on yours.
In an imperfect world
it's the only way to play the game.
June 27, 2007
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
From a safety issue I remember early to mid 70's when catcher was the most dangerous position, anyone remember some of the violent collisions it was legal to run over the catcher, alot of retribution from my recollection went on, in some instances middle infielders because as I remember metal spikes were legal. I received several puncture wounds as a 3B. Also 1B I recall getting nailed on the back of the heels. We now have in senior ball anyway, safety bags at 1B, in all assoc you must slide at home and in senior ball home plate isn't even in play and the catcher is for all purposes a first basemen.
The most dangerous position is now pitcher and the unwritten rules that have always applied whether catcher in the 70's or pitcher today still apply. I don't recall what caused the shift to safety with the catchers but I'm sure there was an outcry that it would ruin the game it hasn't. I'm also sure that eventually logic will prevail when it comes to pitcher safety changes will be adopted and softball will lbe fine. Einstein and Stone are ahead of the curve on this issue.
Oct. 17, 2007
Hotrod
Men's 55
9 posts
For what it may be worth to this conversation...

I've been serving as president of one of the many leagues here in the San Diego area. This particular league is recreational, all skill levels/ages. We play on a fenced/shorter field where the right/left field fences are 250' or so.

We're going to experiment with wood bats this weekend. While the safety issue cuts both ways (ball speed vs. bat breakage), the primary reason for this experiment is fun.

We enjoy playing ball. Playing ball is hitting, catching,making plays, running the bases, etc. I feel there will be far more of all of the above with far fewer balls hit over the fences. Have fielded some (premature) complaints, but the number is insignificant.

Not sure yet on how to evaluate the safety issue as noted above. For what it's worth, I'll be taping my "woodies" from just above the grip to just below the fat of the barrel. Can't hurt.
Oct. 17, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
HOT ROD: I hope u do have fun. My question to u is : "Will u be us' CORK BALLS? POLY BALLS, do NOT hit well w/ Wood Bats....

Wood Bats & Cork Balls, make a better team. I believe that Kevin, w/ Anaconda Sports can verify this fact.

GOOD LUCK......... The STONEMAN

P.S. The boys in Jax', Fla, r NOT happy w/ Wood Bats.
Oct. 18, 2007
T-REX
64 posts
Interesting post without question and granted there is no national injury information available,I pitched for about 20 years in the super major division,in fact I pitched the first titanium bat game sanctioned against Bell Corp...and lived...played and used the T-4000 ball and lived,I know for a fact that many players have used altered bats that are deemed legends in the game,it is a FACT ,however whats being overlooked is the other infielders and the fact that often your playing on fields that have less then perfect maintance and I have witnessed many serious injuries due to bad hops from hot bats,or bad lighting at night.The BAT WARS have been ongoing for years,don't kid yourself,the hottest bat sells more its about $ not safety ...guys that are hitting home runs now,alot of them were never home run hitters in there career,until now,the bats allow you to be something your not.Its never going to change and unfortunately its taken its toll on every level of the game....
Oct. 18, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
T-REX: Last wk, I saw one of the best hitters, hit 2 pitchers. I do NOT believe that player ment to hit either pitcher.

As far as H.R.'s, how many Seniors use a 25, 26, 27 or 28 oz bat? Resent lab results "points to " the increase in Batted Ball Speeds, r the results of the lighter bats. As per the test results, BBS, has increased by 8%, due to the lighter bats.

Also, many Balls that r be' used r mislabeled. If, u think that this statement is wrong, than why, did the Decker Ball, get the ax in ISA? (This is one ball MFG. Other Ball MFG's, over the yrs, have done the same.)

Why, do Seniors need bats that weight is less than 30oz? When we (Seniors) were in our 20's & 30's, we were us' 34 to 38 oz bats?

A proper Ball, a good Bat, & practice. That's all most of the Seniors want. Someday, I hope the Summit, will get rid of "HOT" balls & "Senior Bats."

I do have a 75 yr ol' friend, that will hit 1 or 2 H.R.'s in a Tourney w/ Senior Bats... YES, c' a man that ol' w/ Knee replacement, hit Home Runs, is still a great site.

Will the desire to hit a H.R. ever end? Is this a bad desire 4 men that r in their "GOLDEN YRS?"

Hope to c u boys in Az.
The STONEMAN
Oct. 19, 2007
T-REX
64 posts
Stoneman...I couldn't agree more.I do think you have me mistaken for Tyrell,I am the T-Rex that played 3rd base for Fergies and 1st for Damons here in Maryland.I no longer play after playing baseball and softball for 51 consecutive summers,I called it quits.I'm not saying I wouldn't play again,but the last game I played was in Vegas,our pitcher my roomie and a longtime friend got his tthumb crushed from the tip to his knuckle,from an ultra and that was on his glove hand ,on a badly lit field at night.To me it seemed nobody really cared.I have No desire to hurt someone or get hurt at this age,so now I go fishing and unless I gig myself,I don't wake up with an ache or pain in the morning.I still love the game,I always will,but theres a whole lot more to the game then just hitting home runs,if I never hit another one,I have hit my share...
Oct. 20, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
T-REX: Thanks.. Tyrell, I thought plays out of Fla. Was ur roommate Jay?

It would be nice if, Seniors just used ISA / U-TRIP Bats.

When players r in their late 60's, who, cares about bat weight or if, a U-11, is used.

GOOD LUCK..... HOGG'
The STONEMAN
Oct. 20, 2007
T-REX
64 posts
Hogg...Yes JayBird was my roomie with Fergies,I will admit it...now that i don't play anymore! I enjoyed playing against Tyrell,I doubt if he knows how to turn a computer on ,but he can damn sure play some ball and a great guy! I wish there was common ground for all players on all levels,instead of so many pocket supermen because of a bat.I'm 6ft6in 285lbs,I am going to hit 'em with a 2X4 but I loved to play baseball softball and defense,but those days are long gone.People need to be honest and its not gonna happen...
Oct. 20, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
T-REX; HOGG' or HOGGING... Catch big Bass.
Oct. 21, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
Back in the 70's and 80's, I believe that the pitchers mound was at 46' or at 45' when we used wooden bats. That figure alone will skew the above reaction times a little.
There seemed to be more of a pride factor by pitchers in being squared up and ready to field ALL pitches that they threw, not just one or two every once in a while. All too often I see pitchers lob one in and not be in a position to field..glove down at side, pitcher turned sideways, etc. Be as safe as you want, it's up to you. ou're not glued to the rubber. Back up, wear protective gear, be ready to field.
Oct. 22, 2007
SouthernLeather
22 posts
Stoneman,
Thanks for the info, it had been a while since I remembered reading that piece....thanks for putting it out there again.

I can tell you this, we just played in a one-pitch tourney because of weather....One-pitch will definitely make the pitcher more vulnerable as you tend to concentrate on just nutting it and don't quite have the time to get back as far as normal...

Speaking of nutting it, I am glad to have mine in tact after taking a couple of low top-spin line drives back up the middle...

And you are right, the guys in Jax FL only like the wood bats for one thing.....shaving off little pieces to start the fire for the barbeque!
Oct. 28, 2007
tooslow
Men's 40
4 posts
This is a very interesting stringÖ Got to throw my 2 cents into this, hope itís not too philosophical.

First let me state I like hitting the long ball.

With that being said, obviously the goal should be to attempt to protect the defensive player while allowing the offensive player to maximize their potential. Unfortunately this balance canít really be achieved. When you step out on the field you should know (and accept) the risk youíre taking. You have to acknowledge that you could be seriously hurt by any batted ball. Now Iíve seen people get hurt in all sorts of ways. Iíve seen people get hit by batted balls that resulted in stitches, tooth loss, broken bones, etcÖ Iíve seen a lot of pitchers hit because a lot of them couldnít defend their positions (especially in the shin area). They had slowed down to the point they really couldnít contribute in the field so they ended up pitchingÖ In my opinion itís not too smart to put a guy close to the batter who canít moveÖ

Now Iím in my early 40ís and Iím not a big guy but Iíve been able to hit the ball out (on 300ft fences) in every era Iíve played (Began playing in the early 80ís when heavy aluminum was what you had in your bag). I was swinging a 37oz Easton when a friend had me try a 30 oz EA70 Easton in the early 90ísÖ The technology was outstanding compared to what I had been swinging and my performance increased. When the Titanium bats came out in 93/94? we really didnít want to buy one but we were playing Aís and were at a competitive disadvantage without one. Even though they were quickly outlawed (right after we shelled out the 500.00 and bought one for our team). The mold was set. Guys saw that there was a magic bullet out there. That situation has continued to evolve to where we are today. Now if you look at the big picture youíve got guys shaving or compressing composite bats to get the most performance possible and then theyíre playing down in the rec divisions. I honestly canít figure that out, but itís definitely happening.. Nothing more frustrating to me than to see a guy hit a mush ball 340 ft with clearly doctored equipment when Iím following the rulesÖ

Anyway my point here is that the bar has been set. People expect a certain level of performance as theyíve been spoiled over the past 15 years. If you donít allow the equipment you invite ďthe cheaterĒ which also creates a safety issue and a competitive disadvantage. I say leave the high end equipment out there and let folks use it. If you have a U2 you donít need a shaved bat.

I also want to state that I believe as a safety measure that a screen could be placed in front of the Pitcher (at their discretion) for their protection (hit the screen and youíre out). Donít like the rule, donít play. If safety is truly an issue, this would protect the closest player to the batter.

Face it, itís a hard ball thatís easy to hit hard. Iím sure even with a Wood bat and a low compression ball that some players are still going to get hurt. I think the senior organizations have the correct approach (allowing the equip like U2ís).

BTW I just started thinking about playing 40+ so if anyone is looking for a competitive 40+ player in the Phoenix area please feel free to contact me.

Curt
Oct. 28, 2007
Gary Heifner
248 posts
I agree with HIt the Gap in that a U2 does not mean an automatic HR. The 60AAA in Phoenix was loaded with major players. It was a joke. Yet, in our 5 games, we had 1 HR and our oppoenents had "0". In all this reaction testing, does it take into consideration that most of the pitchers are using some if not all of the 6 foot extended box. I did find it very interesting that the 4/5 absolutely major loaded teams did not reach the final four. They were mostly singles hitters from what I saw on Sunday. I saw only one pitcher hit in the face after several hundred games this year and it was a big time player in a park district league with an ASA bat and a 40 core restricted flight ball!!!!
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