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Discussion: REPLANT...... FOOD 4 THOUGHT???

Posted Discussion
July 23, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
REPLANT...... FOOD 4 THOUGHT???
REPLANT; U seem to be a good person. But, stay away from Rosey 19. I will ask u this question: why, has the follow' SENIOR players tired of Rosey? 1) Eistein 2) Don N. 3) Lecak 4) The Wood & 5) Myself.

There is nothing wrong hit' a ball 5 ' left or right of a pitcher. If, one hits a ball closer, many pitchers will not be able to react. I have no reason to lie on this issue. It is also, a copout.... can't react so, quit..... etc.... etc...

REPLANT: Here is a list of facts that u can believe or not: 1) There is no safe ball being made today, that the SOFTBALL GODS, allow in their Organiz'. 2) In the first 60 ' to 70', todays softball will travel that 60' to 70' in less than .4 of a second. NO, NO, the 40 & 44 cor balls travel faster than the 47 & 50 cor ball. Just ask SGMA.. 3) test studies show that SENIORS, both pitchers & infielders, can not react in less than .4 of a second. 4) SENIORS, our age reaction time is closer to .42 of a second. 5) Batted Ball Speed, has increased 8% dur' the last several yrs. WHY? Because of the light bats. Light Bats have increased BAT SPEED which causes an INCREASE in BATTED BALL SPEEDS!

What should be done??? 1) Use a safer ball (50 or 47 cor balls). 2) No longer allow the 24, 25, 26, 27, & 28 oz bats. Yes, bat weights may have to go back to 32 - 34 oz. 3) Do not allow batters to 'walk the box'. This distracts some pitchers, but, gives the batter a better chance to hit the low pitch or stop his or hers walk & hit the deep pitch.

LAST POINT: Replant.... some teams will go @ the OTHER TEAMS pitcher. Nor, Eistein, & I, do not have any reason to lie.. In SS-USA, IN THE 40 DIVISION, if one hits the pitchers body, that batter is out & that batted ball is a DEAD BALL.

This discussion was started because 1 player hit 6 plus balls @ the other teams pitcher. Because one team hit 10 - 15 ball @ a pitcher; the other team hit several balls @ the other pitcher. This second pitcher, was knocked down hard twice. This second man will tell u that, he was trying to get the h... away & not get hit.

BELIEVE THIS, ONE DOES NOT NEED A SENIOR BAT TO HURT A PITCHER or AN INFIELDER. The STONEMAN
July 25, 2007
replant
97 posts
Stoneman- You answered your own questions.
1. Ban those that intentionally try and hurt the pitcher.
2. Ban those that threaten retaliation
3. Ban equipment that over tests the linitations of the Senior palyers. don't ask, you know what I mean.
4.If you don't consider the pitcher a fielder, use a screen.
5.You want it all ways, that can't happen.
6.As seniors, bullying and retaliation doesn't have a place on or off the field.
July 25, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
REPLANT: I hope u r aware that todays ball travel thru the Infield in less than .4 of a second. The many RESEARCH STUDIES, states the first 60' - 70', in less than .4 of a second.

W/ this in mind, should 3rd & 1st basemen, also, get screens. No. If, the Pitch' Rubber gets moved back to 60 ft, will we c more walks? YES.... Will the mov' of the Pitch' Rubber back to 60 ft, make SOFTBALL a safer game? Yes. How much safer, i have no clue..

NO, I am not 4 mov' the Pitch' Rubber back to 60'. There has got to be several solution to protect' pitchers.

REPLANT.... again, thank u, 4 u're post. It is well thought out. THANKS
The STONEMAN...... KEEP POSTING.......
July 26, 2007
E. Ness
122 posts
I don't want to get into this but it is hard to read about the good old days of how things were and not read the whole story.
1. In the 1970 and most of the 1980's THERE WERE NO HOMERUN LIMITS! Most of the teams did not hit the middle because they could hit it out without it being an out. Those who did not hit homeruns just hit the ball where it was pitched and no one complained. Pitchers backed up and were fielders.

2. We seem to forget that in the 1970's the pitching rubber was 46 feet from home plate and the bases were 60 feet. Most fields in the Midwest were 275 to 285 if they were fenced at all. When the balls and bats changed for the better the ASA moved the pitching rubber back to 50 and the bases to 65 and up. The fences moved back to 300 feet.

3. In the late 70's early 80's USSSA came about and brought to softball the idea of classes and of course the homerun rule. With these homeruns rules came the idea of purposely hitting the middle because it is the biggest hole on the field. We also were introduced to the T-4000 softball, Ti bats, doublewalls and believe it or not the composite bat. Two pitchers were killed by batted balls (T-4000) and that is when the balls were suppose to be regulated. Bats were not regulated as a whole until the 90's and that is because of the Ti bat. But I ask this quesiton was it about safety or homeruns. For 6 weeks in 1995 we were allowed to use the Ti bats with crappy softballs. Homeruns were plenty and games were long yet fun. The major complaint after those 6 weeks was never about safety but about the amount of homeruns and who hits them.

4. The 1970's, 80's and 90's was the greatest time for softball. Numbers were up and people actually wanted to play the game. Now enter the classes and homerun rules and add to that other sports who don't have so many restrictions and softball is down at the younger level. I would venture to say the samething will happen to senior softball in 10 years if they don't pay attention to history and continue down the same path.

Are the bats better? YES BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF SENIOR PLAYERS WANT THEM THAT WAY!! Do the balls suck? In some associations they do but the general senior association they do not. Do we hit the middle too much? Not anymore than we did a back in the day. Why because we don't have restricted homerun rules. Are we as a people stronger and in general can we hit the ball harder? Yes and unless you want to put rules into affect that states a players cannot work out or be strong then players are only going to get stronger. I watched a very strong senior hit a ball up the middle with a wooden bat in a wooden bat tournament that put a pitcher in the hospital. He was also sandbagging which in my opinion is the biggest problem.

I am sorry it was so long but if we are going to talk about back in the day lets at least tell the whole story.
July 26, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
I think this synopsis is relatively correct on some aspects of the game as we know it.
The best balls out there now are 40 core with a 525 comp. for maximum durability and flight.
As you get older you do loose your reaction time as well as it takes longer to reach ahd catch balls in the outfield.
In the70-80ís Alum bats to 38oz or even more , Good balls started to come out, Worth Red Dots, Blue Dots & SuperDupers. I still have some of thoseÖMost of these were banned later on. Pitching distance was 46 feet. Very few injuries due to batted balls, rarely did you see or hear about someone trying to or intentionally, hit a pitcher. I took a shot to the rt knee. A lot of fun to play. HR restrictions not seen.
90ís pitching went to 48 feet, better bats started to emerge, DBL walls, a few composites, & some Tiís. Same balls but with the Polycoreís emergence. Still fun to play but a new trend emerges, bat banning and the ball make up changes. No HR restrictions remembered by myself.
2K+Now we have the pitching at 50-56 feet, banned bats, but a higher number of awesome bats. The balls are just ok, but work well.
Players getting wacked more than ever, be it due to player attitude or accident.
HR restriction for certain age groups but not others, as well as for team ratings.
I see the rational for the HR rule, but itís not uniform like the batters box. Erasure ( moving line with hand or foot) to effectively obstruct the line for intended use or covering over the chalk lines, (moving dirt, sand etc, over or on top of) the line so as to prevent the line from being seen. Is essentially the same thing.
However the box was changed (by the 1st person) to allow a batter to hit outside the box the person doing so should be out.
July 26, 2007
Wes
Men's 65
310 posts
At first I thought that the screen was a real bad idea but after some thought it might work---How does it work??
How far from batter or pitcher??? How big is it?????
What happens when a ball hits screen/?????? Is it dead
oe can someone pick it up a do something with it???????
Wes
July 26, 2007
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Some pretty good points and I agree with just about all but one.

E. Ness: I get sick of that excuse for hitting back at the pitcher because of the HR limit. That is the weakest excuse their is IMO.

Gary 19:

I think that you can pretty much tell when a batter is hitting back at you on purpose and hitting back at you in the normal course of their swing.

The one thing I wish everyone would do in these discussions of hitting the middle separate the hitting back through pitcher and hitting the open middle of the field. They are totally different events.
July 26, 2007
Robo2
220 posts
I hit the middle more often than not, especially because it forces me to keep my shoulder in. That is what all ball players were told since day one - when in a slump hit up the middle. Do I try to hit the pitcher? Heck NO! Why are center field fences deeper? Because a person hits the best up the middle when the swing is aligned with good mechanics.

As far as a screen, I have one for BP so gusy can practice their swings without worrying about hitting the pitcher. It would not be to much of a change to add a screen. Call it a strike as if it were a foul ball. Before one argues against a screen, pitch BP to your team and see what a difference it makes. You will find that it does not come into play that often.

Now leave the bats and balls alone. Allow HRs as many as an old man can hit. Shrink the divisions and keep track of players names. I know of several times this year where teams changed their names to win titles / tourney's or teams have picked up Major+ player because the Maj+ team was not in the toruney.

Remember, one reason for allowing U11 is because of the cheater bats - painted freaks, etc.
July 26, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Wes- I've played in one local league that used the screen. It was about 7' tall and about 3' wide and fairly mobile. The pitcher could move it side to side depending on if he was a lefty or righty. In this league, a batted ball striking the screen was a dead ball-foul ball. If it was the 3rd strike, it was an out. There were very few occurrences of a thrown ball hitting the screen since it was generally a sliver in line between 3rd and 1st bases, but was played as a live ball the same as striking a base or the pitching rubber. It was a good thing we had it becase this league had no prohibited bats at all and used a 525 ball.
July 26, 2007
E. Ness
122 posts
Fred I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point. You get tired of the homerun limits as a so called excuse I get tired of hearing about hitting the middle period. Fact is the safest hit is softball is beyond the fence. No one can catch that and it is a hit. The second safest place to get a hit in softball is the middle. If you take away the hr then the middle is where you go. Besides as stated it is where most of us who played baseball were taught to hit.

Gary what can I say about anything you say. I wrote those six graphs because you forgot to add what really went on back then. Selective memory does not prove a point. Besides you are the one who goes on and on about senior having special bats.

The purposely hitting the middle remark was to make a point to some. You missed it and that is fine because it was intended for you. The guys who get upset about someone hitting the middle and come on here talking about are the same guys who have one or two players on their team who hit the middle. And what is funny they never say a word to their teammates. Is the middle part of the game? Yes period. Should you try to hit the pitcher? No but you should make outs just to avoid the middle. I mean I saw a pitcher at the SPA get upset on a ball hit 10 feet over his head that hit the centerfield fence in the air. He was never in danger but he made a big deal out of it. Things are getting out of hand IMHO.
July 26, 2007
replant
97 posts
I had a game this morning and all the outfielders played at the warning track on 300 foot fields. Anybody can get a hit under these circumstances. the bats need to change
July 26, 2007
replant
97 posts
I forgot to add. I hit plenty of home runs. always have, and yes, sometimes miss hit up the middle. Not by choice, it just happened. It would have saddened me to see anyone hurt. So take my Ultra!!!! Save my friends!!!!! If seniors really think they are 20 again because they have hot bats. Time for a medication check!
July 27, 2007
MaverickAH
59 posts
I have to disagree with several points initially made:

a) There are already balls being made which are inherently safer than what's currently being used. I know because I use them all the time. Mfgs. will also be "toning down" there balls going forward as well because to the stiff penalties for over-the-limit balls that some assns. will be insituting.

b) The main reason ball are hit up the middle is because that's the easiest place to get a hit. It is not with the intention to injury the pitcher! I've seen teams leave the middle open all the way to the fence! You want less balls to be hit up the middle? Then reduce the chance of hitters being successful by going there! An 11th fielder stationed up the middle is a viable option.

c) Pitcher safety? How about mandatory protective equipment for pitchers. If you don't wear it you don't pitch!

d) Instead of ranting about light bats you'd be better served in trying to get rid of the hot bats currently allowed. I'd argue that BBS has increased 8% not due to lighter bats but due to composites & their expanded sweetspots. I might even be willing to advocate getting rid of all composite bats! In fact, let's go all the way! Singlewalls, lesser balls, shorter fences & no HR limits. This'll do more to protect pitchers than anything else!
July 27, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
MAVERICK AH: SAFETY in SOFTBALL. This subject has been debated 4 over 30 yrs or more. EASTON & SGMA, has spent $1M or more on protective equipment, etc. My friend Dr. Larry Noble (KSU), has done many yrs of test' & development 4 EASTON & the NCAA.

We have: 1) break away bases. 2) 2nd bag @ 1st base. 3) no crash' into catchers. 4) etc, etc.

As far as research on balls: a) the diff' Softball Organiz's have not listen to SGMA or the Ball manufactors. If, u go back thru some of my past post, one can read the article on SAFE BALLS. Ball markers, r not mak' batches of balls & there is no market. Most balls r 40 & 44 cor balls...

b) Poly or Cork balls?? Wooden bats do not hit the Poly balls very well. Metal & Composite Bats, hit the Poly Balls, better than a Cork Ball. But, Wooden bats do hit the Cork Ball better.

c) ANACONDA SPORTS, sells a 50 cor ball w/ a 150 comp. This is a safe ball & several of us Vegas Seniors can hit this ball over 320'. If, one gets hit w/ this ball, that person will bruse, but will survive be' hit in the head. I HOPE KEVIN S, WILL POST about this ball & area.

d) LIGHT BATS..... Some studies have been done in this area. It is still early... as far as reseach work. Data appears to imply that lighter bats has increased the BBS by 8%. Poly Balls & Composite Bats, have also, increased BBS.

e) I have talked to several diff' Organiz's directors. Many of these men, believe that Light Bats & Composite Bats, have changed the game & there is no go' back. Players that never hit Home Runs, r us' Bats 10 to 13 oz lighter & hit' the long ball.

QUESTION: Why, has the NCAA changed several of their rules?? One rule: -3 oz. If, a Bat is 34", that Bat can not weigh less than 31 oz. A 33" Bat, must weigh 30 oz or more.
Second Rule: (TESTING in PROGRESS) Balls r to be made, inwhich the max' distance 4 that Ball is 390 ft.

There r Wooden Bat & Single Wall Tournaments. I would like to c some TEST GAMES, inwhich all players had to swing 29 - 31 oz bats. I believe that there would be less home runs.

GOOD LUCK... The STONEMAN
July 27, 2007
terrymac
46 posts
E.NESS One of the best replys to a real problem that Senior Softball will be faceing very soon. Young people not coming out to play. Anything! Bowling is dead. Golf is too expensive. And I guess what we do is too tough. Younger people today play computer games and on the average are just fat! This country needs to wake up before we lose everything we have. We need more ideas from older players to encourage guys to play ball. Some back away because we try to make it safer. Any excuse. We dont help by only posting negative stuff here. Everyone of us knows really good players that have quit for one reason or another, we can start be trying to bring them back. Just my 2 cents. Terry McClaskey Ohio Silverados 55
July 27, 2007
replant
97 posts
I don't believe any of these posts are negative, unless you count those advocating retaliation and bullying. We can't solve this problem without a meeting of the minds and I admire all of those concerned enough about their friends to join in this discussion. I do believe the hot bats are intimidating to new players and they don't want to get hurt so they won't sign up. We need to encourage the physical and psyhchological benefits of taking part in a team effort. Finding avenues of play that advocate safety should be paramount. Having players scared to play any position is not good. outfielders, playing at the warning track is ridiculous. Make a game out of it so hitters and fielders are important. I'm sure we can come up witha solution with a little effort.
July 27, 2007
Mango
Men's 50
86 posts
MavericAH makes a good point about protective equipment, though I wouldnít make it mandatory. Iím seeing more and more pitchers wearing protective batting helmets with cages over the face. Also goalie masks. I know a lot of pitchers wear shin guards under their pants and of course cups. I donít think it would be unreasonable to wear a chest protector out there. Maybe we will start seeing more of this in Senior Softball. In fact I donít know why more donít wear the stuff.

I'ld like to hear from some of the pitchers out there that have a gripe with guys hitting the middle. Why don't you wear protection like shin guards mask and chest protector?
July 28, 2007
Ray2
Men's 50
3 posts
Mango-My name is Ray and I have been pitching on and off for over 30 years. The majority of players who hit middle I feel are doing it for a base hit, there are very few who do it intenionally to hit me, but I know this happens as I have heard them say they are going at me. I learned early when I started pitching to back up and get set to field my position, I also wear chin gaurds and just started wearing a cup. I have a face mask which I don't use because it restricts my visability a little. I have very little time to react to batted balls that any new restrictions like the mask or chest protection I feel would limit my fielding. The best thing I have found to limit balls up the middle other than pitch location is to field your position and make as many outs as possible when balls are hit to you.
July 28, 2007
replant
97 posts
Ray2-out of curiosity . Why did the players that you overheard say they were going to take you out, did they say that? did you know them? did you marry their sister. There is always a reason. Guys don't just get up and announce "I'm going to take out the pitcher".
July 28, 2007
Ray2
Men's 50
3 posts
Replant-It has happened after my team hit up the middle which the other team thought was intentional, when a member on my team made the comment "the middle is closed" by the way a comment I do not care for being a pitcher because the other team can take as a challenge. I let my team members know and ask them not to say that. It wasn't necessarily announed, I hear a lot of the comments or remarks from other teams being close to the dugout from the pitchers mound or while coaching bases. It has also happened in my local league where some players use it as bragging rights to say I couldn't catch there batted ball. I still get amazed of how we can lose sight of sportsmanship in the game we all love to participate in.
July 28, 2007
naked cowboy
Men's 50
40 posts
you know,I read every bit of this discussion and some things I had to read twice make sure i wasn't seeing things. The rules and changes you r trying to enforce sound like something you would place on a 1st/2nd yr little league so they won't get hurt,that i can see. but we're talking about grown men here who have choosen to continue to play this sport at an age when most people say we should be spectating instead of participating. I'm 51 yrs old,a power hitter still and I pitch and play the infield,when pitching you're taking a risk to begin with because of the short distance and I don't know of anyone who is that accurate to hit a ball back at a pitcher . Now I have been in both positions and can honestly say what you guys r talking about changing is not for the better of the game,simply put if you're not good enuf to field the position find another better suited for you.SORRY but I like the heat up the middle !!!
July 28, 2007
naked cowboy
Men's 50
40 posts
Just so you understand what I'm saying, it is pure luck when a batter says he's going to take out a pitcher and actually hits the ball at him. 1 of my favorite places to hit is a line drive by the pitcher because I know his chances of fielding the ball are slim.And yes a good pitcher will learn to back up after his release,but I have seen a few that just stand there after they release the ball and get hit. As for walking the box and making the pitcher nervous,c'mon, I also happen to be a pretty good place hitter and that's how most good place hitters keep their batting ave.so good they can go with the pitch to any part of the field.If you're serious about making the game that safe then we need to start wearing suits of armor! Play the game! if you feel uncomfortable playing a position find another.
July 29, 2007
replant
97 posts
at 51 I felt somewhat the same way you do. Now at 60, as you will see, The game looks a little different. I want to continue to play and not get taken out by a 51 year old power lifter using an ULTRA. Don't say quit playing. Life and friends are a little more valuable the fewer years you have left.
July 30, 2007
replant
97 posts
Gary, that's an interesting comment to someone that is advocating changing the game in almost every post. You advocate in every post to get rid of the hot bats. Now,You have lost me on what you are really advocating. It's a fact seniors have slower relflexes and poorer eye sight. Now your advocating "quit the game" rather than make it safer. Are you advocating anything or just playing devils advocate on every post?
July 30, 2007
replant
97 posts
Your advocating change the game and at the same time saying "don't advocate changing the game." I'm starting to get what Stoneman is saying. You mainly want to stir up trouble.
July 30, 2007
replant
97 posts
to be more exact, your last post said"but don't ask others to modify their game, or THE game to accomodate you.How selfish". Then you whine about the bats. What's up with that?
July 30, 2007
replant
97 posts
your post also says, and I quote"I don't personally care about the bats". Then you again whine about the bats. Your posts get very confusing.
July 30, 2007
replant
97 posts
it seems then, That you do personally care about the bats! What exactly did the other post mean?
July 30, 2007
replant
97 posts
"But, don't ask other to modify their game, or THE game to accomodate you. How selfish" Gary, do you know who might have said that?
July 30, 2007
replant
97 posts
I don't have a day job, I retired at 50. If your point is, get rid of the ULTRA ll bats. It's a simple statement. It doesn't need 40 posts in a blog to get to your point. You have it figured out, play in games that don't allow them. Others can play where they use them. Why does that bother you?
July 30, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
REPLANT, I believe IT is time to ask... NO MORE POST' on THIS SUBJECT. Please, try to move on or start another post.

Nothing personnal... but, it appears that we r just go' around in a circle. The ROSEY'S of this world, r always right & must always have the LAST WORD.

One of PETE D's, post.... DNC.... DNC.

REPLANT... u won that round. Good job... (from Lecak, Wood, Nor44, Einstein, Pete D, & many others.)

The STONEMAN..... OUT
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