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Discussion: ASA Nationals in NC

Posted Discussion
Sept. 2, 2007
rabbit
Men's 65
297 posts
ASA Nationals in NC
Butch Drake and the Travelodge 55's won their third major tourney in row as they won the 50 major division over Declair Insurance out of Ohio, in teh ASA Nationals in Burlington, Nc . All this team does is win, congrads to Butch and Bill S. & Bill K .and the rest of the boys from their old friend , Rabbit
Sept. 2, 2007
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
Does this mean they have to play 50 major plus next year?
Sept. 2, 2007
rabbit
Men's 65
297 posts
Who really knows anymore.I dont , I am really not sure they played 50 major. could have been 55 Major Plus, I was just thinking they told me they were playing 50 Major, been wrong before, Rabbit
Sept. 2, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BUTCH.... How many Worlds have u been on?

AA........? AAA........? MAJOR......? ANY MAJOR PLUS rings????? How many MVPs? (3-4)

The Travelodge Team, how many 50 championships?
As a 55 team?

Anyone, 4 play' down??? Is this another example of why Watches, Metals, & not Rings, should be given out ? It must be nice to have over 12 or is it 20 championships. Butch, is it 15 or 20 Rings?????????????

4 the last 5-7 yrs, I have read several post about players & teams win' several Championships & not mov' up.

Yes, this is a negitive post.....

The STONEMAN
Sept. 2, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
ASA-- 2006 50 MAJOR WORLDS CHAMP' Travelodge Bears (Martinsville, Ind)

ISA-- 2006 50 MAJOR W.C.--- Travelodge (Ind)

LVSSA-- 2006 MAJOR World MASTER C.-- Travelodge

SPA-- 2007 50 +, who is the Ind Classics??

SSUSA-- 2006 55 M+ WINTER Nationals--TRAVELODGE
2007 55 Major T of C-- Travelodge
2007 50/55 Silver---Midwest Reg' Champ' -- Ind Classic (who is this team)
2007 Platunium-- East Reg' Champ'-- Travelodge

Does anyone want to add??? The STONEMAN
Sept. 3, 2007
rabbit
Men's 65
297 posts
Stoneman, I have known Butch for years, he is about playing and winning competive softball, he doesnt play because of rings , medals, shirts,hats or cupie dolls and always has been a team player in my opinion, he is thankfull he can still play at his age and he plays with the rules that are in place, thats all I can say about the matter, it is what it is, Rabbit
Sept. 3, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
RABBIT----So what....... How many Worlds has Butch, played on???

Is Butch, an Impact Player??? It appears that Butch,& many, many other players, play on Major Plus & Major teams in the same yr. In 2006, Travelodge won 3 Major Worlds. Another one as a 55 Major Plus team (2006 Winter Worlds in Fla.)

If, a player is play' on a 50 Major Plus team, that player can only play on a 55 Major Plus team & not in the MAJORS or AAA.

Travelodge in 2007 has already won (3) a 55 CHAMPIONSHIP in Major, Platunium, & Silver divisions. I do smell something ..............!!!!!!!

What should be done to teams, coaches, MGRs, players, etc that allow the follow' or say noth'? MY POINT...

1) What should RB (& other Coaches), do about 6 of his Major Plus players win' 4 Worlds & then play in Vegas 4 a Major team? (One wk u win in Major Plus & the next wk u play 4 a diff' team & win in Majors.)

MY POINT: Why, did the other teams, coaches, MGRs, etc, not raise a STINK???

2) What should SSUSA & LVSSA, do about a team chang' States as far as Majority Players (rule). Should the coaches, MGRs, & players get.....? What about the reason 4 this State change. THAT REASON.... To pick up a Henderson pitcher. The whole team & pitcher knew better. This Midwest team, stated that SSUSA, approved the chang' of States.

Rabbit, Butch, is a nice person.....but, the rules appear to be bent 4 some..... If, I try to play down, even on a non-qualifier team, that team gets moved up 1 division.

My fight is w/ the ratings, MGRs-Coaches, Players, T D's, & our lazy LVSSA disfunctional Board. All of the cry' etc...

If, anyone has more, B.S., please post. NO WONDER WHY, we SENIORS r never happy.

The STONEMAN....
Sept. 3, 2007
rabbit
Men's 65
297 posts
Stoneman, thanks for answering, if i were guessing Butch had probably played on and won over 30 major tourneys in just the last 9 years, Impact player ? No, just a very good player who knows how to win, and brings some of the other players up a level .

as far as the ratings I agree with you, but it doesnt seem to be doing any good to bitch about , the organizations do what they want to on a lot of the cases, teams change names, players jump from team to team, teams cry that they can not complete, as far as I am concerned they can throw all the teams in one bracket and go at it and best team win, except, that isnt fair , cause money will buy a championship, so the little guys that pay thier own way never have a chance.

These tourneys are still about making money, so they are not going to turn many teams down, so they give in and let them play, under different names, and allow them to pick up players so they can field a team , it never ends,
From now on I will just pay the entry fee, go play,have fun, best team wins, less hassle and less stress doing it this way,other wise I will just move on with my life's work , since I am retired, I will keep on enjoying my retirement. and read this softball board and just shake my head.
Rabbit
Sept. 3, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
Stone:
You obviously bring up a strong point. We have a 55 team here in So Cal, OLR Nighthawks, that were moved from major to major + this season. The reason for this was that they won the SSWS 55 major division in 2006 (Palm Springs). They had been AAA the previous season. We had 2 others (D&K and NCI) that had also been moved up to major + but , upon appeak, they were returned to the 55 major division. I really didn't understand the rationale with this because the Nighthawks were pretty much at the same level in my view (we've played all of them this year).
I know that many teams are moved up on the premise that if you win a national tourney, you'll be moved up next year. Now you tell us that the IN team has won several and still competes at the major level? Didn't the IN team have a post on here previously that was essentially a search for major + players?
As we speak, the ratings committee is comprised of 3 men. In theory, this should work because there is one from the east, the midwest and the west. In theory, Appalachian State doesn't beat Mich. Somehow there needs to be some reason inserted into the rating process. I must say that I'm very confused over the current inconsistencies.
Bob Woodroof
Sept. 3, 2007
rabbit
Men's 65
297 posts
Bob, you are correct, but 3 people can not rate all the teams, one lives in Virginia, and sponsors at least 3 teams, and I do not know for sure if he even travels with them, Ridge lives in Oklahoma, Terry lives in California I think , they have to have info from coaches and others in different states to keep up with all the names changes and player moves.,and that is not happening at the rate it should, it is better, but not there yet.

The only way they will ever get it right,I think, is rate the players,(I do not even think this will help, hard to do but worth a try, ) have all rosters put on-line, have all organizations play by the same rules, including bats, have all coaches, owners, sponsors listed so they can be tracked from when moving from team to team, for the most part, the organizations have to work together, which wont happen, again because of the money,other wise there would not be National tourneys on the same weekends around the country, cut out some of the tourneys, there are too many, and not enough money and time to play all of them,
I would list all the teams by state and list the players that played for them the last 3 years in both qualifiers and national tourneys,and the division they played in, there has to be a way the computor can pick up players names who show more then once on these lists,and the different teams, then those teams and players would be put on a watch list for the TD's

ps- I know there are some teams listed on the rating board 6 times with different names, and still for the most part have the same players, why isnt this being policed?, I have tried to get some of them removed, nothing happened, they seem to be not intersted in deleting any of them.

I am just rambling on, sitting here is the AC waiting to take off for Dalton this Weds. in which will be probably one of the best 50 AAA tourneys you will see in a long time.

Rabbit
Sept. 3, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BOB & RABBIT: Great replies & I hope that more players will put their 2 cents in.

I also, believe that players should be allowed to move up 1 to 2 division w/ out releases from their present teams. If, a player moves from AA to another AA; or AAA to another AAA; or Major / Major Plus team, that player should get a release.

MY POINT: There r a few cases in which a 1st yr player gets locked in on a team that is "well below" that players ability. Or, a player is stuck in an area that has only AA or AAA teams.

This is why, a 1 to 2 player exempt 4 the Majors or Major Plus teams should be BROUGHT UP to the SUMMIT.

Seniors, we r the solutions to our own problems. THINK & the time is now, to start talk' to our SUMMIT REPS!!!!

The only thing constant is CHANGE.... hopefully 4 the good of SENIOR SOFTBALL..

More replies.......... The STONEMAN
Sept. 3, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
Rabbit:
That's my point... 3 people are not sufficient, particuarly if one or more of them are involved with their own teams. I've heard general noises about using players/managers as 'bird dogs' but as yet I've seen no real evidence of this.
Sooner or later, the players are going to have serious input in this matter. The question is, in my opinion, whether this comes in an orderly manner or otherwise.
Let's grab some reality here... it is the teams that are the fare paying passengers, not the assns, nor the SAB. We have a lot more clout than what has been perceived.
I believe that to allow a perennial imbalance in the lower divisions to be either acts of incompetence or something more sinister. To ignore that it happens is to perpetuate it.
I would hope that more people weigh in on this matter.
Bob Woodroof
Sept. 4, 2007
Leoslocks
Men's 60
45 posts
The Change that occurs locally is not for the good of Senior Softball. The Good teams get Better and the recreational players get used and then shuffled to the side.
The Tournament Future should not be left up to the Better Managers, Bigger Sponsors or Administrators. Establishing and Maintaining an equal playing field requires the same tools used in any socially managed situation.

Fair Rules: (Already in Place)
Administrators:
National Data Base: Here is where the entire Senior Softball Community is lacking. It is the digital age but most of us lack the skills to create, implement and manage a Structured Query Language Database or any database for that matter.
Rank players and maintain the database. The administration of fairness would improve.

Here is a link to a local pdf file where the Park Administrator has started keeping the records of teams that play. It is quite simple but quite the valuable tool for teams coming into the league. This format is probably an Excel Spreadsheet. The Effort is commendable.

http://www.ci.germantown.tn.us/All%20-%20Time%20Records%20for%20Adult%20Athletics.pdf

SSUSA's Tournament Brackets, Results and Site Maps are a model for all organizations to adopt. Now, where is the DataBase?
Sept. 4, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
Leo:
You make a few points that I do not understand.
1) One of them is 'the change that is local ids not good for senior softball'. What change are speaking about?
2) How does the database help even out the divisions? Are you suggesting that if all of us know which players are on a given team that we could show the tournament director that the team is under classified?
3) Who would need the skill to develop such a database? Us or the folks that rate the teams?
4) you also mention that the solution would not come from the better players, better managers, better sponsors? Is this because their knowledge is a disadvantage? or why?
5) you also state the 'recreational players' get cast aside. I'm not sure who it is that you are referring to but, in my view, anyone playing in national tourneys are higher than 'rec players'. Do you use some other form of definition?
Could you clarify these?
Bob Woodroof
Sept. 4, 2007
jrhunch
96 posts
the problem with travelodge is that they won in 50's and were a move up to major plus.this never happened because they are registered as 55's.now they are still playing in 50's major.when they were in manassas the rules stated that you only could drop down in age groups to the same class,major plus to major plus ,aaa to aaa etc.this was not enforced.other teams could have brought other players to play but followed the rules.the lodge won 3 championships last year and weren't moved up during the year.this year teams are forced to move up without a good reason.why not them.they are not the only team doing this but how are thet getting away with this.we pay for cards and have to fill out paperwork and wait in line to register to play so everything is fair and nothing is enforced .how are teams getting away with it?what happened to natural progression?sportsmanship?rabbit you have a nice team that comes to play game after game and are gentlemen but you yourself know you only have lost 8 games this year and should be a move up soon.you have been classified major in the past and know how hard it is to win.in texas you placed third last year and the1st,second and 4th place teams have moved up to major.that was the best tourney i played in last year.we should never blame others for the rating problems it is the fault of the teams for not doing the right thing.if travelodge wants to play 50's they should be in major plus.,no if ands or buts.i am curious what they have to say.wonder why they werent in kansas playing 50 major spa?
Sept. 5, 2007
QC Softball
Men's 55
19 posts
There are only 5 players from the Travelodge Bears of 2006 and only one has Homerun power. The 2006 Travelodge Bears are gone and the players are now playing with other teams or not playing at all. Some of the players are playing as low as AAA. The Travelodge 55 team started in November of 2006 with 5 old Travelodge Bear players and a combination of AAA, Major and retired players from bordering states. The coach told the summit who would be on the team and was given a 55 Major status. There are only three 55 year old players. Everyone else is 56 years old or older. Yes Travelodge 55 got very lucky and was handed a tournament they should have come third on. They went on to win the TOC in February over a 60 year old team and W.E. Ruth (and Ruth won two of the four games over Travelodge 55). Wow! Won a three team tournament and got moved to Major Plus in 55 (not suppose to move up if less than 5 teams)

Because of the money involved Travelodge didnít want to go to tournaments and play one other team in a best of three (which is what happened in Manassas, Burlington & others). Travelodge 55 asked and was granted the right to play 50 Major if they used only their 55 and older players. So until the ISA the Travelodge 55 team record was only 6 wins and 9 losses against the real 50 players. Not a real scary team. Ok yes they won a four (4) team ISA World Series. Then a four (4) team SS-USA Eastern Nationals and now finally an eight (8) team ASA National. Yes they should have to play 50 Major Plus next year by the rules even though two teams in the tournament hit more homeruns in fewer games. Travelodge 55 catches the ball and hits a lot of singles but that is not like some of the teams that can hit 37 homeruns in one game.

Long winded sorry but Iíve been storing this up for awhile. I read the message board about 4-5 times a week and like to read all the comments. Travelodge has always followed the rules of the summit and not taken a year off or lost games to get moved back down like some teams Iíve seen.
Sept. 6, 2007
Leoslocks
Men's 60
45 posts
The Wood:
1) The local Senior leagues in the mid south are diminishing rather than growing. I know dozens of rec players shuffled out of the mix as the strong teams recruit new 50 year old players. This is similar to the situation the older/upper division Tournament teams are facing. There are very few 55 Major teams. They appear to me to be made from the better 50's players as they move up.

2) Fair Rules
Administrators (SPA, SSUSA, NSA, et al.)
DataBase: Use the Database as a tool to keep up with players and teams.
Use the same identifying feature as a key (Drivers License for instance), All players are rated, Teams are rated and an individuals participation is recorded. Rating players and teams would be easier with documented history to back up decisions.

3) A motivated person or group skilled with software is necessary to build an efficient Data base. The Administrators that rate the teams and players would only need to know how to use it. This is a Catch 22 situation as the people that know what information that is most important are seldom skilled with software. Those with the computer/software skills may not know what information is necessary.

4) Better Managers: Rabbit comes to mind. I have lined up against his team off and on for my entire senior history. This years team is strong enough to play Major and win. I believe he is allowed to play AAA (this year) because of the good he has been for Senior Softball all these years. There is a method to his madness. His team lines up to win. Promoting Senior Softball is not his agenda yet is a byproduct of the character of his team. The point being, he manages to win and not promote Senior Softball, yet he does both. This is not the case with every winning manager.

Better Sponsors: We could field better talent if money was not an issue. What I have seen from big sponsors is they expect to win. More money sponsors will promote winning. It is up to the Administrators to promote Fairness.

5) Rec players getting cast aside? This is my personal observations of our local leagues and not Tournament ball. Playing in a National Tournament with a large field of equal talent borders on a Spiritual Experience.
Blessings to all in Dalton this weekend!
Sept. 7, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
Leo:
Well said.
BW
Sept. 8, 2007
rabbit
Men's 65
297 posts
Hi Leo, we all missed you in Dalton, your team told me all about your injury, hope you will be back soon. and thanks for the kind remarks about me.
But as far as being in the Majors next year,the following teams better be up there with me ,that is if we get moved up, and I do not see how how, since we we finished at least 11th in a 15 team field of AAA ?? teams, Texas legends, Willie's Wolves, JIm and Joes, Kayson's Grille, Double 'O', Memphis, Tenn, Chicago Classic Blue, Monster Softball,CJ & Express, AZ, Bagbys,Iowa all are Major teams, before we are, you could tell that by the way they played and a couple of them beat us in the tourney,
Of course we only got to play 4 teams in this tourney, and three of them we have played a total of 14 times this year alone, so much for playing new teams.
I think Indiana Classics , O'Skool, Fossils,Old Guys, Silver hawks, should apply for the 50 AA next year and pick up major Players and Major plus players, since I saw that this weekend on several teams,but that is beside the point,
But anyway I thought we played well and we still got beat , but there is always next year, the Classics will be back, and you can count on one thing, I started with 17 players this year, and I finished with 17 players this year, and they were all the same ones too for over 70 games, I didnt think about picking up players to play in a National, but that is me, I guess I am a little different. Please note , I am not a whiner, just stating some facts, Rabbit

ps anybody have a comments on the Tourney in Dalton?
Sept. 8, 2007
Leoslocks
Men's 60
45 posts
Rabbit, no wonder there are no teams in the Major Tournaments, they are getting away with playing AAA. Our goal as Monster Softball was to recruit some position players and play Major next year.
I remember knocking out Texas Legends last year at McKinney. They could not keep the ball in the park. We squeeked out a nice win but they really underachieved with the talent they had.

I have been hawking this forum for any news. I hope to see a dedicated thread about the tournament.

What really stinks is playing 3 of the same teams you played all year. Why are the brackets so misaligned? Not one team wants to line up against the teams they have fought with all summer long. This goes back to the Tournament Directors. Please set some guidelines for setting the field that take into account location. Better, spread out the teams that play against each other before assigning seeds.

I worked out all year with this weekend as the goal only to sit at home nursing a bone bruise on the right ankle. I am not so sure there is a next year for me. I missed seeing my softball friends too.
Sept. 9, 2007
Lefty
Men's 65
477 posts
I agree with rabbit on how good the teams where. The 3 teams we faced in the 50 AA would would have given the AAA teams a run for there money. I enjoyed seeing everyone again. Miss you Leo. I hope you don't retire.
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