Message board »Message Board home »Sign-in or register to get started
Online now: 4 members: STL0, TABLE SETTER 11, ZIM 7, tg69; 77 anonymousDiscussion: fair or unfair?
| Posted | Discussion |
| Sept. 19, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | fair or unfair? Pat Tobin is a 60 plus player that was having trouble deciding which would be the best team for him to be on. He played with Kids forever and the Old A's, decided to go with KIds then after a short while wanted to change to the Old A's. All of those decisions were acceptable by the OLd A's because who wants a player that doesn't want to be with your team and who wants to stop a player from playing where and with whomever he wants., It seems that SSUSA has decided to not allow him to move because the Kids team won't release him from their roster. On top of that we're going to LVSSA next week and they've decided to uphold the decision of SSUSA regarding Pat and their refusal to allow him an opportunity to playt with anyone else. This really sets me off for a couple of reasons. Slavery ended, de facto speaking, in 1964 and it sounds like it's back again. The owners in sports used to really own the players and that ended a while ago, too. Why should anyone care if a player wants to leave a club and play with another enough to block his movements? All those involved are very lucky this didn't happen to me cause I'm just bored enough with the rest of my life to hold everyone accountable for such an injustice. This is no longer the era of salary players where player movements could cause great instability to teams, fair play and tournament integrity. And we should all be beyond trying to spite a player for not getting along with the power structure of a team and/or wanting to play with someone else. What is taking place isn't fair to Pat, the Old A's, and the rest of us who need a softball environment that has and enforces sensible and fair standards and let's us be free to enjoy playing the game we love so much. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | So rules now equal "slavery"? Which amendment gives you or anyone the unfettered right to do whatever you feel like? |
| Sept. 19, 2007 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Einstein, I don't think anything past your first paragraph is relevant, but if the SSUSA rule book states this in a way that is why they had to rule that way, seens as though he (Pat) is stuck . At least for the time being. NCSSA can't do that. Your free to move at least once I think. But I also think I read that within SSUSA, you are allowed to change one time. Msybe Pat already had it. Got a rule book? I do not. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Go to the forms link on left side of page & read Player Release form at bottom. Might clear it up. Maybe, depending on anything not known. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 curty Men's 60 187 posts | hey, why won't theKids team release this player? How many teams has he played for this season? Is he an "impact" player? Will he be competing against his old team? |
| Sept. 19, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Curt, Pat is a good hitter who can run well at 60 and is a good outfielder but he is not an impact player. It sounds vindinctive and small minded on the part of the Kids forever, to me, and to make it worse SSUSA won't let him free and worser, some unrelated association, LVSSA, without even talking with Pat has decided to ban his movement, too. I'm not trying to beaugard this thread. I would love to here what Hank, D-Mac, SSUSA and anyone representing LVSSA have to say or anyone else that would like to weigh in on the subject. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | To me it sounds like following the rules. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 DMac Men's 60 207 posts | First off, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 banned segregation in public places. The Thirteenth Amendment ended slavery in 1865. (Sorry, I am a history teacher) Joe, I believe a person should play with whatever team he wishes to, but I think SSUSA has their hands tied by Kids4Ever refusing to give your man a release. Perhaps players should keep this in mind before joining this team in the future. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey D-, It's good to talk with you just like when we do at the tournaments. I think it's a great idea to let prespective players know that you don't want guys coming and going but to deny one of us from playing softball at 60 seems a bit much. I know Pat now and he's an excellent, team oriented guy, very bright and articulate and it would hurt to see him walk off or want to walk off my team but I WOULD let him go. I'd let anyone go and then beat the crap out of the team he plays for. See you in Vegas. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | No wonder you're so smart. A history teacher? You sure don't look like it. Yeah, I know, I should talk. But I was referring to de facto slavery as opposed to de jour slavery. The JIm Crow stuff that that the Civil Rights Act of '64 stopped was a way to keep the meaning/essence of slavery alive and well after 1864, waiting for, 'The South to rise, again.' I was trying to throw some weight into the argument that men like you and me and Pat shouldn't be kept from playing/working/being where we want by any old sense of the game when players "belonged" to their owners and teams. Call me sensitive but I'm against ownership and the sense of ownership (de facto vs. de jour) of human beings even softball players and suport the freedom we still all have from having our dignity and rights underscored whenever challenged even in situations like the one Pat Tobin is in. See you in Vegas, D. |
| Sept. 19, 2007 STONEMAN Men's 50 535 posts | DMAC: If, a player is not happy, why, should a player not get released? This happens all the time. If, a player wants a release, release that player. How many teams will put a player on a team, that has a History of chang' teams every yr? Not to many. In the past & present, I know of 1st yr. SENIORS, & many other reason', that get stuck & r forced to quit. These players MGR, will not release them, so, players, have been forced to quit..... PERIOD. If, another player was sleep' w/ ones wife, why, should that player not leave?? Set out a full yr or 6 months. In some areas, play' spoftball, has only a 6 to 8 months time slot. KIDZ.... now that's another story. I, as a Vegas player, have nothing good to say 4 that group of men. I can tell u some war stories & some of the crap, Yes, crap that the Lady Luck, The String, etc, & Kidz, have pulled over the yrs. There r several men on Kidz, that I do NOT c eye to eye w/. But Hank, Pro, Danny Mac, Barnes, Wendall, & Zebra, r good people. The release form, is out dated. This was brought about because, there were several Sponsors, that brought their players, etc. Hopefully, the SUMMIT, will review this rule. If, a AA player can move to AAA, or a AAA player to MAJORS, & so, forth, let these players move up a min' of 1 division, w/ out a release from any team. I can tell u a story, about a team that had several wifes, that did not like one of the teams' player wife. That team had to kick a certain player off, or else, the 3 players wifes, would NOT allowed their gutless dudes play, because of another mans' wife. Yes, I still hold a grudge toward the 60 yr olds Major- Major Plus players in Vegas. NO, NOT all of the problems were caused by them. DMAC... I thought that there was some Article that went like:" .... to the right of liberty & to the pursue of happyness ... & justice......" How is is right that a Coach or a MGR, can keep a player that wants to go play else where? In the past, many Coaches / MGR's, kicked the player off, or, stated that the player HAD quit. Would u Guys, go & spend $400 or more, just to set the bench. Travel, miss work, etc & NOT get to play??? THINK !! I believe that the Coach or MGR, must release a player has seen it's day & a few changes can be done now & in Janurary of 08". Reason' & sound think' needs to be applied.... The STONEMAN..... writters cramps? |
| Sept. 19, 2007 sjuhoops 145 posts | joe., hank here. just to give you some quick info. i talked to a/c twice on sat after i was called and was told what had happened. i have had two e mails with pat tobin yesterday to tell him all that i know. you can talk to both of those guys to get some info. if you need more e mail me with your phone number and i will be glad to talk. im sure pat has told you about his 45 jminute tirade directed at dave. that had a lot to do with our team decision having to do with ssusa. as far as lvssa that was something that our president handled and i did not find out until this past sat after gary and a/c had been told. hjc565@aol.com hank |
| Sept. 20, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | DMac, you don't believe in rules either? Please name a historical anarchy you would rather have lived in than this country at this time. |
| Sept. 20, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Hank, Hoops for basketball? As tall and lean as you are I bet you can still play. I love basketball more than any sport I've ever played but don't have the right body for it. Thanks for the response. I'll email you in 5 minutes with my number and we can talk. Joe |
| Sept. 20, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | Just use a trampoline and you will be able to dunk. Kind of like the bats you insist you have to use to hit home runs, errrrrrrrr have fun. |
| Sept. 20, 2007 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | NG: Several people have made an honest effort to support your rirght to offer your input on various matters. You have the option of stopping this nonsense from your end if you really want to be a long term contributing person. Regardless of whatever argument you could make about 'who said what to whom', you have the choice to be a bigger man. Bob Woodroof |
| Sept. 20, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | Bob, you want some "nonsense"? Read the first post in this thread. |
| Sept. 20, 2007 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | Gary, I really do not want nonsense... I'm damn near 60 and would like more peace in my life, quite frankly. I had thought that I'd found it... but I was wrong. BW |
| Sept. 20, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I've spoken with Dave D and a couple of others and the more I hear and think about the subject of Pat Tobin the more unreasonable and unfair the situation becomes. Hank admits that Pat is being punished by Kids Forever for the argument/discussion he had with one of the players. He didn't "sign" with another team to change the balance of power is 60 and over major plus softball. He wasn't lured or seduced by any other club. So the confict was internal and for an internal situation for there are at least 2 sides to any argument Pat is now denied an opportunity to play in Las Vegas as well as Phoenix, the last 2 big tournaments. Stoneman was right. What if a player called another a name, or came on to his wife, or disagreed on the importance of defense to winning hightly competitive softball contests. The present Draconian situation allows for the player to be overpowered by the system and his right/need to play the game he loves is denied. This is very wrong. I know Terry is an ex journalist and 1st Amendment rights are extra important to him and for all the right reasons. He doesn't want to see ANYONE disadvantaged or overpowered by ignorant insensitive and outdated systems or institutions even more than the rest of us. Even Moses is weighing in on this one Can't you hear him saying "Let Pat Tobin go." |
| Sept. 20, 2007 sjuhoops 145 posts | joe. just want to clarify. not a argument/discussion but one sided verbal abuse is what did it. i thought you were going to contact me hank |
| Sept. 21, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | Why do some want to abandon the concept of rules? |
| Sept. 21, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Hank, In your post you said to email you with my phone number. I did just like I said. You wanted my phone number and I thought that meant you would call or email me back. Did you not receive an email from me yesterday? Let me know and I will try again. As for Pat the more people I talk with think the situation both regarding the institutional power of SSUSA to stamp the act of Kids "punishing him because he didn't get along with one of its players and the act itself by Kids are unacceptable in this day and age. The punishment just doesn't fit the crime. Let Pat go, Hank. It's the right thing to do. You guys will gain and grow in stature with all of us as we all move down the road together. |
| Sept. 21, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | So, in the apparently desired absence of rules, a new line will have to be drawn with each instance? And the location of that line wil be argued on and on and on by some. |
| Sept. 21, 2007 The Pro 81 posts | I've trying really hard to ignore this subject because I know that all the meaningful and unmeaningful dialouge in the world is not going to change the result: it is not going to help Pat play in Vegas or Phoenix. I certainly can understand all the hard feelings on both sides, but it is what it is and everyone needs to let it go. . The Old A's with their Hall Of Fame roster will continue to play for championsips in Vegas and Phoenix and will contend for the championships in both, even without Pat. Mr Tobin will be playing with the Old A's (and from what I heard two of the best players from the Farm) by November and all this will be a distant (albeit a bitter) memory. And the Kidz wil struggle again to put together a 60 Major Plus team of 14 players who will live up to their committment. You guys will never understand how difficult it is to field a major plus team in Vegas. Using Southern Califonia, Arizona and Vegas we've played hell fielding 12 -14 players for literally every tounament this year. You may have noticed what a "reduced" schedule we played this year; that wasn't by choice we simply couldn't find the bodies. One last thing, maybe Pat isn't a "impact" player with the Old A's but he certainly was for us! He's a five tool player with exceptional speed for our age group. We needed him. Losing him hurt our team immensely. I wish things would have worked out differently, buy they didn't. Don't need to bash each other anymore, it will soon be over. |
| Sept. 21, 2007 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | The Pro, As you stated teams can start getting players for the next years roster in November, but not sure what date. There is another tournament in Vegas the 16-18th of Nov. I do not know what "date" in Nov a team can start "trying out" or "adding" players for the next year, but the 16-18th is mid month, so it should be ok. A question may arise however, as to, if a person playes in November with a team, and wants to play with another different team in December, will he have to get a release then? I'll be looking for another home as well. |
| Sept. 21, 2007 sjuhoops 145 posts | joe. im sorry i worded my email incorrectly. i did not receive your email with your number thats what i meant by you not contacting me. hank |
| Sept. 21, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Thanks, Hank for pointing out that the address I emailed you at yesterday which you posted for me to use wasn't going to work regardless of what I did. I would still love to talk with you about the situation as it is never too late to right an injustice. You can email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com if you still want to discuss it with me. Pro, thanks for the considerate and considerable response but as I said to Hank I don't agree that it's too late to let Pat, an innocent man, out of softball jail for not being able to get along with one or more of your players. The tournament is over a week away and Phoenix is 3 to 4 weeks away. I know this situation is difficult for all concerned but it's clear as a bell that it's not right to punish a player for not getting along with a team he tried to bond with. Pat said some of the things he was told were going to happen after getting him on the team never materialized. If this is true than Kids would be guilty of a breach of contract and SSUSA and LVSSA would be wrong and I think legally liable for denying Pat his right to play the sport he loves. This is a very serioius issue as I'm sure you, Terry, Dave and Fran, Pat and all of us would agree and the right thing must be done and only the right thing will make it all go away. Pro, you mentioned that not having Pat weakens your team and that makes a ton of sense but what's that got to do with punishing Pat for what looks like holding Kids accountable for promises never kept and not getting along with one of its players? Nothing. And it's not anyone's responsibility to help you guys out for losing or missing any of your ball players. A man's right to play the sport he loves is on the line. here, that's the issue plain and simple and he did nothing to merit a ban from playing in tournnaments with the rest of us. |
| Sept. 21, 2007 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Let Pat Tobin go. Let Pat Tobin go. Let Pat Tobin go. |
| Sept. 21, 2007 4x4 Men's 65 601 posts | I thought all an individual had to do to get released was send a letter/email informing SSUSA that he/she were removing themselves from the roster of any particular team. Then the manager of the new team just had to add him/her to their roster once they were available. The agreement is between a player and a team with either one having the option of opting out. It can't be all one sided. |
| Sept. 22, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | Maybe it shouldn't be, but apparently it is. He knew that before he signed, or should have. Better luck to him next year. |
| Sept. 22, 2007 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts | Nobody on this board is guarenteed a November just my $.02. |
| Sept. 24, 2007 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts | I apologize beforehand if this is digging at an old wound just want to point something out, one of my favorite heroes Ronald Reagan stated that Governments role was not to save us from ourselves but from each other. The governing bodies here SSUSA and LVSSA need to make this a priority maybe not now while the season is winding down but for 2008. Both sides individually probably have a point but it can't be good for business (SSUSA AND others) to have capable able bodied seniors sitting on the sidelines. I fully understand that rules are rules but I believe in Florida they still have a law on their books that you cannot fart in a public place after 6PM on Thursdays (look it up). THINGS CHANGE CLEAN UP THE BOOKS PLEASE. Terry if you read this it is not a good rule. |
| Sept. 24, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | More importantly, we needed to be saved from Reagan. |
| Sept. 24, 2007 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts | Gary thanks for the reply this issue is important to me so I will use your negative momentum in a positive way to keep this thread near the top please feel free to add anything and often. Think of this as Hollywood and any publicity even negative keeps this on the forefront, you'll do my dirty work for me thanks. |
| Sept. 24, 2007 TheNextGeneration Men's 50 307 posts | Care to say what was negative? Oh, about Reagan? So you can make a positive statement but I cannot dissent? LOL |
