http://www.mikensports.com/

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 2 members: 12X12, JD-53; 57 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: IT APPEARS THAT SOME SENIORS HAVE NO RULES.

Posted Discussion
Dec. 6, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
IT APPEARS THAT SOME SENIORS HAVE NO RULES.
Over the past few yrs, I have lost respect 4 many Senior Players. This past yr, I tried to "RETHINK".

I read players say' nice things to their team mates & other Seniors say' nice things to Seniors that & r say' nice things to one another.

The TRUTH & NOTHING but, the TRUTH!! What do most of u SENIORS think about the follow':
1) 6 Major Plus players & 5 Major players ( on the same team), play' in a AA & AAA Tourney. This Tourney, has been 4 the last 5 plus yrs, a AA-AAA event.

Tourney-- 3 Home Runs & over the limit is an OUT.

2) This same Western State team, plays under 5 diff' Team Names? This team in question, picks up many diff' Major Plus players in the 50-60 division. NO real Roster.

3) This Western State team, is made up of Major Plus & Major players, who have & will be play' down in age group?

WHY? In order to win & get another World Ring!! PERIOD.

O, well.... I guest this is O.K. In Jan, I will play in one 55-AAA Tourney, if Menifee's T.D. allows.

WHAT , if, anything have I learned? To each their own & it maybe in my best, to realize.... NO one can tell many SENIORS a thing. Seniors will be SENIORS..

It's that time of yr to wish all... well. The STONEMAN
Dec. 6, 2007
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Hey Stoneman! I do not think much of guys that do that. You would think that they would eventually get caught. As far as the ring goes, I could care less. The rings have very little value with things like this going on. Honestly, I would rather have a new ball bag, glove, bat, or a gift certificate. If our team won a ring tournament, there is no way that I would put out the money for it, and I could easily afford it. Getting back to the subject, if such teams are around and doing this, then why aren't other players and teams bringing this to the SSUSA's attention? It is because some teams are favored, DoublePlay 50AAA for example, that should be a Major team. They won the Major Worlds a couple of years ago or so. Most recently, walked through the Vegas World Championships in the AAA bracket, 7-0, and averaged over 20 runs per game. If our team wins any major tournament this year, I will ask to be moved up. I do not care to beat up on teams that we are better than. I want to play better teams that we are competitive with and be challenged.

That's my opinion, Andy :-)
Dec. 6, 2007
JRD
Men's 60
11 posts
Grown men playings kids games. We should be pleased as punch to be able to play this great game. This is my second year back after a seventeen year absence. I will not let this idiots that stack teams ruin my good times. Follow the rules, turn in the teams that are cheating, and let the system do their jobs. If that is how some grown men get their thrill, you should feel sorry for them. I will not dwell on this any longer, but I think all that cheat to this degree are nothing but LITTLE men.
Dec. 7, 2007
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Hey JRD,

I was recently at a Vegas tournament in October. In between games, this guy comes over to talk with us after being eliminated. His purpose was to brag about his 5 rings. I asked how many levels did you win those at. His reply was all in the AA level. He said as soon as his team wins a ring tournament, they disband and form a new team name with a different manager name. I told him that his rings are meaningless, and to enjoy its worthlessness. Besides your suggestion about reporting these teams, why not have a committee comprised of several players that can report to organizations, obvious misrepresentations of their team?? This player committee should meet with these organizations to remedy these issues. There are other issues in this area to deal with here, but too much to get into now. I know several players(all without team releases) that played on 3-4 different teams last season at different levels, and when caught, the TD acted concerned, but let it slide for this tournament. Maybe, just maybe, if they did the right thing by throwing the player out and/or suspend him and/or the team, this would subside.
Dec. 7, 2007
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
Stoneman/JRD
I'm 67 average ball player, can still run and want to play ball. I started the year playing for a 65 and a 60 team.
Both folded at mid year so I picked up with a second 60 team that palyed two T and then folded. I wanted to go to Fort Myers so I picked up with a 55 team and we came in second.
Each time I e-mailed SPA and SSUSA and they told me it was ok. Do you think I'm breaking the rules??? or the
spirit of the game???? I think when very good teams play
down it not good but I do not see how one or two persons
can make that much differance.
Wes
Dec. 7, 2007
Paul Smit
Men's 55
16 posts
Gentlemen,
Your information is incorrect.. In the history of the Doubleplay team The world tournament that was won was in the AAA division, that was 2005. The team was moved up to the majors in 2006 and did not win one tournament that whole season.
All the big tourneys were attended. that year. (The team chose to stay together.) As far as walking through the Vegas Winter Worlds last month that is another joke.
All games played were close . I would not even consider this last tournament an easy one. Therefore we will order our rings and wear them proudly.
I can honestly say that not one member of this team has ever bragged about winning a ring.
FYI
Also for a team that is supposed to be a Major team we took 5th in the Worlds in Phoenix.

Paul Smit
Doubleplay 50,55 Manager
Dec. 7, 2007
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Hi Paul,

Just want to clarify a few things, so we both have it correct. The bragging part of having a ring was not directed to your team, it was another team that only plays AA. You earned your rings and that is great for everyone on your team. I am glad that you clarified winning the World's in the AAA division, because I was told differently. Honestly, I have many friends that know your team, and 100% of them said that your team should be in the Major division. I never played your 50AAA team and probably never will, since I am older. It will not effect me, but just trying to analyze how all this works for everyone's benefit. Good luck to you this season and have a safe and happy holiday.

Andy :-)
Dec. 7, 2007
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
382 posts
Double Play ...real good team and great people, (sportsmen) on it. Fun to play against and part of what makes playing this game so much fun. They and half the teams, just like our team, Enviro-Vac who got moved up are all good enough on any given week-end to win a AAA tournament.

Rings: Last time I looked when you win a ring tournament, you actually only win the opportunity too buy them?
Dec. 7, 2007
Easy E
Men's 55
44 posts
Thanks for the kind words Enviro-Vac. I always enjoyed playing against your squad. I use to play for Top Gun and we had some epic battles. Just a follow up to what our Manager Paul had stated. I was the field coach in the Vegas Tourney and we averaged 21.7 points a game but we also only gave up 13.7 points a game. If you do the math then you will see that we just played good defense that's all or the teams that we faced just didn't hit. Just as Enviro-Vac said on any given weekend any team can get hot and win in the AAA Div. Mr. Duke I wish your team the best of luck in 2008 and you have a great and safe Holiday Season. Eric Overstreet -Doubleplay 50's.
Dec. 7, 2007
docnorm
Men's 55
97 posts
I played for Top Gun3 out of San Diego , we played Double play AAA in the worlds and knocked them out of the tournament this year, so does this mean we should be a major team??? and all other AAA yeams that beat them this year?

All i have to say is they payed there dues and played major the year after they won the AAA worlds which is the rule, before moving back down and until the Las Vegas tournament haven't won a big tournament, am i right Paul?

Could they play major, i think they could compete at that level, but so could a lot of AAA teams.
Dec. 7, 2007
docnorm
Men's 55
97 posts
I played for Top Gun3 out of San Diego , we played Double play AAA in the worlds and knocked them out of the tournament this year, so does this mean we should be a major team??? and all other AAA yeams that beat them this year?

All i have to say is they payed there dues and played major the year after they won the AAA worlds which is the rule, before moving back down and until the Las Vegas tournament haven't won a big tournament, am i right Paul?

Could they play major, i think they could compete at that level, but so could a lot of AAA teams.
Dec. 7, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
WES: U r in right field. The facts that I stated were stated so, as NOT to get into several players faces.

This Tourney is & has been a AAA & AA tournament 4 many yrs. I tried to be nice & let several players know, that there r several local teams that r NOT happy, c' a bunch of Major Plus players play' down in AA & AAA.

Again, most of these players do play on 2-4 teams thru out the yr. NO, several of these players teams did NOT fold. In the past, these players were called "SOFTBALL W....'s".

Wes, it appers to me that u r one player who tries to play w/ in the rules. A Senior player can play on a 50 & 55 team, as long as that player is 55 yrs or older. A player that is over 65, can play in the 50's, 55's, 60's, & 65's. This is legal.

Again, this was a AA & AAA tournament. NOT one inwhich 6 Major Plus & 5 Major players were to play in. When grown men play down, Sandbag, etc..... Well my thoughts r mine & ur thoughts r urs.

One or two players..... NO it was the hold team. Major Plus players r not allowed to ever play in AA or AAA, w/ out the approval of the T.D., SPA, or SS-USA, or LVSSA, .....

GOOD LUCK.......... The STONEMAN
Dec. 7, 2007
JRD
Men's 60
11 posts
Duke:

I love the idea of suspending a player and or his manager for allowing cheating to go on. Amazing isn't it, here we are all over 55 or 60 and still have to even concern ourselves with this foolish behavior. Have a great upcoming year all you seniors and lets help clean up our game as much as we can.
Dec. 7, 2007
J R
174 posts
Irun a lot of tournaments,including ssusa in Houston area.The teams that show up loaded,are given their money back,and sent home.Teams that have this done to them,will get tired of losing hotel,and travel expense,and play it straight.
Dec. 7, 2007
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
J R,

If more TD's took this stand, that would correct the problem. My former team pointed out to the TD, that a team had 3 Makor players on their team. In fact, they were playing AAA and Major at the same tournament. Imagine that slap in the face. The TD did nothing, but it took him an hour to make a decision. Another tournament, I brought to the TD's attention that this team was sandbagging. I said that every time a team in the AAA division got within 5-7 runs, the sandbaggers would promptly hit 5-6 balls over the fence, anywhere in their lineup. You could tell that they got pleasure in controlling the game. The TD watching took note, and that team was moved up to Majors. Today, that same team is very successful in the Major Plus Division, where they belonged. The whole idea is to play and have fun with teams that you are competitive with. AND you get guaranteed amount of games, whether you win or lose. Most of the guys do not want to humiliate anyone, nor be humiliated. I am done with this subject, and happy that it is on everyone's mind. See everyone at the next tournament.
Dec. 7, 2007
DCPete
228 posts
Obviously this has become the most controversial issue on this board & with good reason. Players don't like taking off from work, traveling thousands of miles and spending a lot of money to go to tournaments where their not even competitive due to other teams loading their rosters.
Couldn't all the associations get together and issue a single color-coded ID card for each player? And then agree on roster guidelines at each level to allow for limited player movement?
For example, a Major team could have no more than 3 Major+ players on any given tournament roster, a AAA team could not have Any Major+ players and maybe 1-3 Major players and AA teams could have 1-3 AAA players only.
The higher-rated players could be changed from 1 tourney to another allowing for sickness, injuries, work conflicts, etc.
Teams would be re-rated at the End of each year based on their results with any team moving up or down having their players issued new cards accordingly.
Dec. 8, 2007
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
This is the one single issue that haunts all TD's and players alike. First, please agree with me that on the average, the major plus players are those that have the most devotion to the game. They are the most talented and have become that way because they practice more, stay in better shape and in general take the game more seriously. They also have a greater desire to compete in tournaments, its their love of the game. These players DO NOT get the opportunity to play as much because of the major plus rating. Most tounaments do not allow major plus in the tournament. Major plus teams travel across the country to play sometimes in tournament with just 2 teams. Last year we played 2 of those tourneys. The biggest it ever gets is 8 teams for a national and of those teams 4 or 5 complain that they arent really major plus.
Couple this with the real travesty of the game, which is AA, AAA teams that brag about how good they are, tell family and friends that they are All American great players, national champions and such and then refuse to play any of the truly good teams. This year in AAA there were many teams that could compete in major plus who refuse to do so because they probably had very little chance of winning a ring. There are guys in AAA who can go yard consistantly and will never step up and play against real competition. They worry as much that when they play a major team that they might win the game and have to move up. They purposely lose so that they can continue in AAA. Then when a truly competitive player shows up to play in a tourney they cry and complain that the guy is too good.
We have too many classes in senior softball and way too many classes in flat belly ball. This year a tourney in Baton Rouge LA was called off because they only had 23 teams entered and it was called off almost 2 weeks before it was to be played and before many teams had sent in their entry. The reason was that it had 14 divisions and not enough teams to have a true tournament in each division. We have created this problem with our attitude of winning, not competing. This year we played major plus and easily had 3 times as many losses as wins. A AAA team would be crying to lower its class to AA.
Dec. 8, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2581 posts
Well said Jim!
On the way to Vegas in 2006 while waiting for my flight in Atlanta, I struck up a conversation with another ball player that I had just met. He was from Michigan waiting on a connecting flight to Vegas. He said that his team was playing AA in the Vegas Masters touranment. He looked as if he was in good shape and probably could mash the ball. I asked about the others on his team and he said they all were about the same. He also said that most of them played class A years ago. When I asked why weren't playing Major or Major Plus he said that this is his league team and they only play in this one tournament.
I tried to keep up with thier progress through the tournament and I think they placed second. I told this story to the TD and all he said was that if they were to win they would be bumped up to AAA next year.
I don't know if they played this year or what class if they did play.
I believe that at the least, the AA division should be removed. Three classes should be plenty. I also think the 50's should combine with the 55's.
Dec. 8, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stoneman et al,
I always wanted to play irrespective of whoever asked me to.
Partly because I like being wanted and sought after.
Parly because playing a lot was how I kept in shape.
But, when I saw the pain I caused other teams and humiliation I experienced
showing up as a "ringer" on another club
it got old, fast.
Winning is only winning when there is true competition.

I remember coming from the loser's bracket in Des Moines, Iowa
some years ago
to double-dip one of Don Clatterbaugh's teams to win a National Title.
That was and still is a very gratifying accomplishment.

Some people think that winners have to win at anything/everything they do
irrespective of the conditions or level.
Like beating a six year old at ping pong.
I don't.

So, I agree with the Stoneman and friends
about not showing up for rings irrespective of competition
and staying away from AA and AAA guys
who want a crack at winning something, legitimately.

And I support any efforts made by SSUSA and any other agency
to keep/let the tournaments be as competitive as possible.
Dec. 8, 2007
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
How about just giving rings to Major and Major +. If you want a ring...................just play up!
Dec. 9, 2007
wagon487
Men's 50
505 posts
I've been playing Major and Major plus that last couple of years. Majors plus tournys are no fun, two teams.
Big one has maybe 6 or 7.
Majors is running about eight teams.
I got a chance to play AAA this past fall, there is little if any difference between AAA and Majors.
There were almost 25 AAA teams, 20 of those teams could have played major with no problem. Over HR limit with no problem.
They should lump all major and AAA together, plenty of teams, If you win three, you should be bumped up.
If you get hot, win one, maybe two, that's okay.
win three, get kicked up.
when you start using UII or other senior bats, it changes the game. Major Plus, 1/2 to 3/4 can hit it out.
Majors, about 1/3 to 1/2. AAA 1/3.
Get rid of all senior bats, play the game they way it was supposed to be played. And it would solve a lot of problems.
Dec. 9, 2007
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
Hi Stoneman, Jim 16 & all concerned players: At the root of the problems identified by you is the selfish attitudes by a few players and managers to find a competitive edge by stretching the current rules and/or by egnoring the rules completly.If this attitude is allowed to pervail, it will continue to grow. If we do nothing to help protect our game than who will. The challenge is finding solutions. What is it that we want the Nat,l Assoc. to do to correct these problems? Your thoughts. Bobby K.
Dec. 9, 2007
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
Hi Wagon: I like your thinking. Eleminating use of senior bats could be a major problem, but perhaps a standard low performance ball would be more acceptable. Your thoughts. Bobby K
Dec. 9, 2007
wagon487
Men's 50
505 posts
I don't know why it would be a problem, getting rid of senior bats. (of course bat makers wouldn't be happy).
I sure everyone has other bats that they use in league play.
Just use the Usssa list, there are some great bats out.
The freak is allowed under usssa.
I know some senior teams that will not go to a tourny if you can not use the senior bats. What's up with that?
I rather hit hard balls, just like the old days,
Dec. 9, 2007
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
I like Salís and Wagon's suggestions for improving the sandbagging, even though many teams might not attend a national tournament where they donít have a roster advantage over other teams. The only answer is to eliminate the 4 class setup and go to divisions of Major + and everybody else. Major + players would not be allowed to play down under any circumstance. Winning rings in AAA national tournaments is a joke anyway when the associations hold their ďnational championships in he far corners of the country (Seattle, Dalton), inhibiting attendance for non-sponsored teams. Money always seems to trump convenience in their decision-making, even with bad attendance the result. Itís obvious they do this so they can all make ďthe moneyĒ. Otherwise, central locations with good air hubs just make too much sense.

Eliminating senior bats, and using a good ball is a great idea too, but then you would end up getting screwed by the stinking cheaters and their doctored bats. Until someone comes up with a way to check for this, we need to stay with the bats.
Dec. 9, 2007
docnorm
Men's 55
97 posts
Ken what will you use if they ban those bats :) :) and what will happen to all your power :)
Dec. 9, 2007
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Norm,

Iíd use the bats that we have to use in the local leagues. As for power, I had a reactor installed in my rear end. I got plenty of power. And then Iíd sell you my ultra ll so you could use it to prop up your tomato plants. Actually, if we didnít have senior bats I think I would still have enough power to be effective. Probably not enough to consistently hit it out, but Iíd do ok. After all, we would all be in the same boat, right? Except for the cheaters.
Dec. 9, 2007
docnorm
Men's 55
97 posts
And another thing, can't believe Sal is still around :) :)
Dec. 9, 2007
E. Ness
122 posts
I have a question and an observation. Question do the major plus players who are land locked by the SSUSA regional rules (which are not changing in the up coming and may be even worst with player ratings) fall under this idea of sandbagging if they are forced to play AAA? I agree that sandbagging is not right but some of it is brought on by the associations regional rule.

Observation: You guys do realize that we all played with 1.20 bats in the past and it is the USSSA and the ASA that has brought the standards down? I read where people want to go back to the good old days of hard softballs and the old bats. Well those bats were 1.20 but the sweetspot was smaller. The senior bats are 1.20 but the sweetspot is larger and guess what that is what majority of players have asked for. All you have to do is check the number of teams that attend the USSSA, ASA, NSA, and ISSA worlds to those who attend the SSUSA, SPA, ISA, and LVSSA worlds. Numbers speak for themselves.

Before someone makes the statement that I must be a U2 player I will answer that also. No but I do use the senior Combat as well as the new Gear Combat and the AV. The last two are not senior bats. Of course I don't get to play much because of the above mention regional problem. I plan on playing this year with a AAA team since that is all that we have around here. So I guess it really does not matter.
Dec. 9, 2007
roadrunner
Men's 65
27 posts
STONEMAN ,the real truth 50% has been lost to the HR PLAYERS. the best part of the game is defence part.which i believe they can't run.catch etc. i think the HR PLAYER ARE KILLING THE GAME
Dec. 9, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
ROADRUNNER: That is 2 general. In AAA & Majors, the H. R. may be ruin' that division. Most of the Major Plus players that I have watched in the 50-60 age group r well rounded.

Question?? Why r there 4 divisions??? A better? or more levels play'??.. Most teams do have 1-3 men that do NOT run well. These players r also, NOT very mobile.

U sound like an ASA Ump!!! Would there be less problems if, M+, had unlimited Home Runs & only 3 in Majors; 1 in AAA & then it is a single.

In Bacon Ball, over the limit is a foul ball. So, unless the batter has 2 strikes on them t& the ball hit must be fair, it would be an out

Rules... rules & more rule. Softball, should be played w/ as lil' "EXTRA" rules as possible.

NOT sure of what some (U), want. The STONEMAN...
Dec. 10, 2007
Hellbender
6 posts
Just combine the major+, major and the AAA, do all tournaments as a low bid, GET RID OF THE CHEATER BATS, and play. That means teams will have to play with position players instead of carrying 3 catchers and 3 first basemen
Dec. 10, 2007
boomer1
Men's 55
14 posts
I vote we bring back the BOMBAT!!!!
Dec. 10, 2007
roadrunner
Men's 65
27 posts
STONEMAN ; SHOULD HAVE SAID THE GAME IS OUT OF BALANCE TO MUCH OFFENCE (to many home runs)
how do we keep the ball in play,
Dec. 10, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2581 posts
Roadrunner, what do you mean "too much offense"? This is slowpitch. lf you want less offense play fastpitch. The game is in the same balance as it was in the 70's and 80's, or at least for my game it is.
As for Bombats, I never did like them. My bat of choice was the Dave Carroll DCXX.
Dec. 10, 2007
roadrunner
Men's 65
27 posts
BRUCEinGA last yr i played in palm springs ca in that game the first five batters hit hrs. this team was major +
60 300' fence this is what i call out of balance as the defence should just set on the bench
Dec. 10, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
ROADRUNNER: In the late 70's & early 80's, I played B ball. Metro Life was good enough to get put into A. We went to Fun Valley in 83'. There were games that teams score 50, 60, & 70 plus runs.

That yr we went 2 & 2. We aveage 31 runs per games. There was one game that went 90 plus runs to 70 or so. This was the last yr in U-trip that batters could foul pitch after pitch off. In one game, there were 30 plus foul balls in only one inning.

I hope that we Senior do get rid of: 1) All Senior Bats.
2) All bats that r less than 29 oz . 3) All balls that r 40 & 44 cor. 4) Senior ball brings back 50 cor balls 4 the Summer & 47 cor balls in the winter. 5) If, a player wants to play in a higher division... NO RELEASE, is required. 6) Teams that have 12 players on their roster, can pick up players, BUT, must release the same amout of players. 7) Everyone just go out & have FUN.

Senior ball should have room 4 almost any one to play. NO matter how good a player maybe!! Is this NOT the reason 4 "OUR" 4 divisions????? So, if, a team has 4 catchers, so what!!! Let those who want to play...... PLAY.

BE HAPPY & ENJOY......... The STONEMAN.....
Dec. 10, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2581 posts
RR, you have stated what you perceive to be a problem with senior softball, do you have a solution? Should we go to a 150 comp ball just so the hr numbers will be 1 or 2 a game? What do you think?
Dec. 10, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2581 posts
Stonedog, you have some good suggestions.
get rid of: 1) All Senior Bats. This would only invite shaved bats
2) All bats that r less than 29 oz. I'm ok with this as I use a 29 or 30 anyway.
3) All balls that r 40 & 44 cor. 4) Senior ball brings back 50 cor balls 4 the Summer & 47 cor balls in the winter. I'm ok with these balls as long as we can keep doctored bats out of the game.
5) If, a player wants to play in a higher division... NO RELEASE, is required. Good suggestion
6) Teams that have 12 players on their roster, can pick up players, BUT, must release the same amout of players. I don't know how this will help, please discuss
7) Everyone just go out & have FUN. This is what senior softball is about.
Dec. 10, 2007
roadrunner
Men's 65
27 posts
BRUCEinGA , STONEMAN your are right there is no solution to correct this problem ever if they the fences longer 325' that would be impossible
Dec. 11, 2007
AlleninGa
Men's 60
113 posts
Although I would like to be, I am by no means a HR hitter.
The only chance I have is with the senior bats and with Bruce's guidance, I did manage to hit one out in BP. Home Runs are part of the game with the elite teams aspiring to take it to the highest level. They don't do it by accident, they do it by practice and determination. I would be honored if a major + team allowed me to get my double or triple and let the big gun get an RBI. If you want the focus on defense (mind you, these teams can play defense) then play in a Division more suited to your style. We need to aspire to take our game to higher level, not bring someone else's game down to ours. Seniors have paid their dues, Let us play.
Dec. 11, 2007
Elmo
Men's 50
69 posts
Bruce in Georgia, I can remember back in the 70's when teams played on 4 fields in league play and for the night there may have been 4 homeruns combined for the four fields. Now, I go play church league and there are 8 homeruns per field. The change has been the equipment. I no the elite teams are going to hit homeruns but given the equipment from the 70's how many major + teams would there be now?
Dec. 11, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2581 posts
Elmo, I guess that it all depends on the teams in your part of the state. The team that RT and I play with in the 70's, Jim Ellis VW, usually hit between 10 and 20 hrs per game. We didn't have classes back then but I would guess that we were probably an "Aor B" class team. It was nothing for several players on our team to hit 15 hrs per tournament. Even in our league at Al Bishop we usually hit up to 10 per game. Of course there were some games when we hit less but there weren't the norm.
Even when I played for Rehoboth Presbyterian in the 80's we usually hit more than our share of hrs. We played at the Softball Country Club for the Ga. State Church ASA championship in 83 or 84 and they ran out of balls. They put us on the upper field that had a lake beyond the fence and after we hit about 15 in it they tried to make us furnish more balls. After a 30 minute stalemate they finally found more balls.
I know that there are teriffic hitters in S. Ga. that can hit, (Mark P or Ashley C), I just wonder where they were 25 years ago if what you are saying is correct.
See you in ST!
Dec. 11, 2007
Brett
Men's 55
245 posts
Check the records. Double Play did win a numer of tournaments this past year and should have been bumped to major. Did that happen? No. Will it happen? Again, the answer is most likely no. Why? Ask Terry. That's an answer many teams would like to know but never will.
Dec. 11, 2007
AlleninGa
Men's 60
113 posts
Elmo, I understand what you are saying about the improved technology of the equipment,BUT that is progress. Equipment and training techniques have improved in all sports and at all levels which has led to a higher level of play all around.Just using a senior bat doesn't guarantee a HR, it just means more people might be able to hit a couple. If it were that easy, there would be a lot more Major + teams. Bruce is right, there have always been player's/Teams that can "go yard" consistantly and there always will be. The truth is, they can also play good defense. Let the big dogs bark!!! I'll see you at CST. It will be my first ST and l look forward to making new friends and playing some ball.
Dec. 11, 2007
MTM
Men's 65
25 posts
There seems to be a lot of controversy about what level a team is or is not.
I donít know of very many players who would want to play but not be able to win. So saying you should play in a higher division and be completive but not being able to win the big one is okay is a bunch of baloney. As long as you
keep score and/or playing for a title it is not just for fun. You want fun donít keep score. I have played way before there were any team ratings and it wasnot fun to be rushed by super teams. I donít mind losing to a team that is your
equal but losing to a team that you should not even being playing is hard to take. I believe in team classifications. In any level below major any ball hit out of the park should be an out period. No one and then an out. Home run hitters would not play where they would be out if they hit a ball out. Also the associations that run tournaments should review the scores from the various divisions and tournaments during the year. Any team that is crushing other teams all the time should be evaluated and possibly be moved to a higher division.
Dec. 12, 2007
Dana22
Men's 55
16 posts
Brett, ok you have finally reached my tolerance point. I do not write on this board, but do enjoy reading the articles and comments. Now, I have become compelled to respond to your Ďcheck the recordsí comment regarding DoublePlay. Regarding the DoublePlay record:

Tucson 2006 3rd place
Menifee Qualifier 2nd place
Spring Worlds in Palm Springs 1st Place
California Cup 3rd Place
San Diego Qualifier 4th Place
Oxnard Qualifier 3rd Place
Worlds in Phoenix 5th Place
Winter Worlds in Las Vegas 1st Place

Our team win/loss average for the year was 40 wins and 19 losses or .678.

Now, please help me understand how you could possibly equate that to blowing out other teams. Wait, let me give you another ďrecordĒ. During the Las Vegas tournament, which was mentioned, here are the average runs per games for the listed teams:

DoublePlay 21.71 runs per game
Second Place 21.13 runs per game
Third Place 19.40 runs per game
Fourth Place 19.00 runs per game

Oops, one final record:
We had 2 players hit 3 homeruns
We had 2 players hit 2 homeruns
We had 5 players hit 1 homerun
Thatís in 7 games, Brett.

Now, I have written way more than I had expected to dwell on this subject. Seeing that I am the most senior member of our team (60), I felt that something had to be said in our defense. Not that any need be warranted. I hope in the future, before you list other teamís names, that you will really look at your data. I do, because I keep the statís and you can see them on our website if it means that much to you. Please know that I am writing this only for myself and it has no reflection on our DoublePlay team. I think that our manager was very nice in responding to ďDukesĒ inquiry, but enough is enough. I havenít a clue if we played your team before. Did we show your team any disrespect at all? I am sure that we did not, because that is definitely not allowed on our team and is strictly enforced.

Dana Green, #22 Catcher
Dec. 12, 2007
VegasPaul
Men's 60
30 posts
The criteria to move up in rating is the following:

According to an agreement between the 10 National Softball Associations, teams winning first place in divisions of more than 2 teams in any of the 10 National Association final championships are moved up in rating for the next season.

Teams winning in divisions of between 3-5 teams may appeal their rating after playing in three tournaments at their new rating. There is no appeal for the 2008 season for teams that won a National Final in divisions of 6 or more teams.

Teams are considered the same team regardless of name if they retain 6 or more players from the winning team Ė even if the team "ages up".

Teams winning the Huntsman Games do not automatically move up because the association allows open rosters.

Based on the post of Dana 22 it does not indicate that Double Play won ANY Final National Tournament of the 10 National Organizations. Therefore they do not meet the criteria to be move up.

Vegas Paul
Dec. 12, 2007
E. Ness
122 posts
I will try to my best to help explain what Brett has a problem with.

1st your two world tournament wins are one more than his team which was forced to move up at the winter worlds.

2nd the number of top five finishes in quality tournaments that you have listed out numbers his team and yet he was forced to move up at the winter worlds.

3rd. When he requested if he could bring a 58 year old major plus player with his team to winter worlds he was informed by the SSUSA that if he brought this player he would have to play major, if he did not bring the player he would play AAA. I still have the e-mail stating that. So the major player and this team thought it would be better for him not to go since a number of players who played for the Barons when they won the ISA AAA worlds could not go. He believed that one player does not make a team as so often stated by the SSUSA. His team would be better suited for the AAA for this tournament.

4th, one week before the winter worlds he is informed his team would have to play major because of his ISA world tournament win and yet Double Play wins the Spring world and is not moved up. Add to that it is to late to bring the major plus player who is really just a DH who had not played but two tournaments in two years and you have what is preceived to be a set up.

Now Brett has no problem with playing major next year and around the midwest next year starts Jan 1 2008 not in Nov. of 2007. In fact he has been told he will be moved up has Double Play been informed they will move up yet? Brett is trying to put together a team that can play and win at the Major level but that team was not available this past Nov and had he been told in Oct when he first asked this was going to happen then the Barons would not have made the trip without the major plus player. So you see he has a valid complaint.

The Barons went 0/5 in this tournament at the Major level with a team that was not the same team that won the ISA worlds. So yeah he feels like he is not being treated equally. While his beef is probably with the SSUSA his complaints fell on deaf ears so he feels the only place one can be heard is here. I am sure he is not upset with the players or anyone associated with Double Play but he is upset with the fact your team had a better year than the Barons and his team was forced up after they were told it would not happen at the Winter Worlds. I would suggest if your team was in this position you would be upset as well.
Dec. 13, 2007
jrhunch
85 posts
i dont know how they rate teams.i think it is a joke.i am sick of teams stating that they played in a aaa tournie and all the teams in it could play major.that is a joke.there is no way that a aaa team can play with the major teams in the long haul.maybe a game or 2.if you cant win a aaa tournie you wont compete well in the majors.in aaa you can win some games without being at the top of your game,this doesnt happen in the majors.there are no cakewalks in majors and the hitters are better.it stands to reason that major and major plus players were great younger players and not just in shape senior players.if they put the major and aaa teams in the same division it would ruin senior softball.if they took the hr out of aaa it would hurt the game also.dont think for a minute that guy who hits the cover off the ball 400 feet cant control his swing to hit linedrives up the middle or at an infielder causing injury.teams with good sponsors will always have an advantage as well as teams from the sunshine states.this is the nature of things.everyone should be able to play in their proper class..we as players should determine who plays where instead of an organization.how some teams get away with it is beyond me.we need more say in everything.happy holidays and keep hitting.
Dec. 13, 2007
wagon487
Men's 50
505 posts
jrhuch, I've played at all three levels, all across the country, different sactions, (ISA, ISSA,SPA and so on.
I'm telling you that there is a very thin line between Majors and AAA. teams are bumped up if they win.
So if a AAA team wins, kicked up to Majors.
I've only seen one team in Majors that was not losing in Tournemts, Damon's in 06. Then they got bumped up and were stuck between being a major or major plus team.
75% of the teams I saw playing AAAa in Fla this past November could have played majors. They all used more than allowed HRs. And I knew most of the major teams,
Very close in talent. have Major Plus, Major which would be AAA and major, and AA.
Need AA for the teams that are just starting. If you enter a Tourny, you think your team can play. If you suck, most teams don't travel.
So in closing:) three levels would work fine.
Dec. 13, 2007
Brett
Men's 55
245 posts
Dana22, you forgot to list another tournament your team won this year - The Gold Glove Classic in Phoenix (February 2007).
Dec. 13, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Brett- Am I missing something here? I'm confused over whether you want to be re-rated downward or you want Double Play to be rated up with you? If you want to move back down, wouldn't the appeal process be the way to go? How does having them move up solve your problem? It looks like neither of your teams won one of the tournaments that cause an automatic move upwards, and I'm not informed enough to know which of the two of your teams is either deserving or undeserving of it's current rating. So what it comes down to is probably the attempted roster move you wanted to make, and nothing more. But what I have seen is this. Too many teams are content to play down in the hope of easy tournament wins than they are to play up to the challenge of stronger competition. In a perfect ratings world, every team would have a win percentage of 50%. But that's not going to happen so long as people stash players, give less that their best effort at tournaments and have an endless stream of excuses for not winning that almost always includes some other team's rating.
Dec. 13, 2007
Brett
Men's 55
245 posts
DesertGuy - Read the post by E.Ness. He stated my stance well.
Dec. 13, 2007
Brett
Men's 55
245 posts
DesertGuy - Read the post by E.Ness. He stated my stance well.
Dec. 13, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Brett- I read it twice, cuz you told me to! I now understand where I was wrong. You DID win one of the tournaments that caused the automatic rating bump (ISA) and they didn't. The only ssusa tournament win that would cause that automatic move would be the World Champs in Phoenix, and they were 5th there (according to them). The other tournaments that have the word "World" in them aren't ones that count. And without getting into the whole other argument of whether or not there are too many tournaments that call themselves "World" or "National", I can see where the confusion comes from. Maybe their overall results from the year would support an increase, and maybe it wouldn't. That's for people a whole lot smarter than me to figure out. But it's simple now, you won an automatic move, and who knows if that's fair when compared to certain other teams. Thanks for pointing me to the clarification.
Dec. 13, 2007
jolly52
Men's 55
49 posts
Desertguy, let me applaud you for clatifying the answer, if I felt like Brett this should give him some relief in thinking he was being pick on in the rating's and he should send in his appeal letter ASAP to the proper channel. I play for DoublePlay and were are a solid team that plays good together as a team but we don't walk on water in the AAA division and if the powers to be decide to move us up then will go up and play hard as we have always have. I have played on this team for a year and never saw any sandbagging or anything but giving it our all. Could'nt ask for a better bunch of guys to call teammates and friends. Is there something personel in this???
Dec. 13, 2007
jrhunch
85 posts
wagon487,i know that you truly believe what you are saying.this maybe true in florida where very few teams travel out of florida to play compared to the number of teams playing in fla.the sunshine states have more teams and more players to choose from.in the 6 years that i have been players the teams are getting better and better.i first started out playing majors which would be aaa today.majors today is way better than majors 3-5 years ago.we moved back up to majors last year as an old 50's team and were not very competitive.our hitting 1-10 was not on par with the other teams.not complaining just being honest.even the teams that moved up with us were killing us.we had a great time but being out of kansas torney at 9am friday yes am. was horrible and i will never forget it.we like to play everyone because we pay our own way so it is very hard to compete in majors.we only draw players from our city and have known everyone for years.there is a reason why teams dont want to move up.fla. is great place to play and especially hit but the bottom line is a regular team cannot compete against major teams in the long run
Dec. 13, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
jolly52- I don't think there's anything personal by Brett or anyone else that has taken part in this. For that I am thankful. But I DO think there is confusion on what it takes to be moved. As VegasPaul said, there are automatic moves if a team wins the major year end tournament of the summit groups. And he was good enough to let us know that even that is not totally automatic if there are less than 5 or 6 teams in the group. The rest of the moves are not so clear. They are at least to some extent subjective, and I guess anything that is subjective is looked at a little bit differently. Especially by those that are affected by the decision. I am not familiar with your team, or his except by name. But I am familiar with a 60's team that had a lot of success last year in AAA but fell down a bit at the ssusa worlds. They got moved to Major and won in Las Vegas. Maybe that's the best way to accept a move that's not automatic. They went out and took care of things in their next tournament. I'd enjoy seeing Brett's team do the same thing.
Dec. 14, 2007
Brett
Men's 55
245 posts
Clarification: My comments were not meant to be taken as a personal attack on Double Play. My team played against them twice in 2007 (Phoenix - Gold Glove Classic) and lost both games in the bottom of the 7th inning (mid twenties scores). They are a very fine team (as we are). Congratulations to them on another fine year! I was simply using their team as an example of the inconsistency with team ratings and the timing of when the SSUSA organiztion chooses to randomly bump teams up. My team was bumped to major in 2006 after our first 50+ AAA qualifying tournament of the year (Omaha, NE) in which we took 4th place. The 3 teams finishing ahead of us were not bumped up. I appealed the change at that time and we were moved back to AAA after several months. To make a long story short, we do not have a problem being moved to major next year. We will simply 'retool' and give it our best shot at that level. As a 50+ AAA team this year, our overall tournament record was 35-26. 15 of those games were against major and major+ teams in which our record was 1-14.
Dec. 14, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
589 posts
It seems that Stoneman's thread got hyjacked. It started with looking for a solution to M+ players/managers intentionally loading rosters playing down to gain a ring and ended up grousing about teams moved up. Both good topics but it went off track from the original content.
Dec. 14, 2007
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Pete Stoney and I have had numerous conversations on this issue there are just so many places for players to go, according to my records there are two active M+ teams in the southwest. And starting up a new team is a snap also. Choices, Choices, Choices where does one start I guess on the couch or the golf course.
Dec. 24, 2007
docnorm
Men's 55
97 posts
People that do not have stats to back up there complaints do not deserve a response, i think that Dana well represented himself and double play when he didn't have to and very elegant i might add , with the stats to back himself up, in the future people get the facts straight or shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Like the shirt says "Shut up and play"


Brett, sounds like you have a beef with the people running the tournaments not other teams like Double play and turning attention to them, and if it wasn't personal, why use double play as your so called example?

Its ok i understand where you are coming from, but you should be confronting the ssusa or any others you have a problem with and there rules.

Good luck to all this year!
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners