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Discussion: when managers picks all-tournment players

Posted Discussion
Dec. 20, 2007
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
when managers picks all-tournment players
I just got done playing in the worlds in Phoenix, and won another championship. This one though, left a sour taste in my mouth. Could someone explain to me, how a catcher, that doesn't hit in the top five, with no homeruns, make it over a shortstop. The shortstop probably hit the highest on the team for average, turned eight double plays, and played solid "D", was left off. I just think, that if i'm building a team, it would be around a shortstop rather then a catcher. Also there is no doubt in my mind, if the players had voted and not the manager the catcher would have been left off. Just like my friend said,"if his nine year old son played catch for us, we still would have won." So in closing, i'd just like to state the catcher was the manager.
Dec. 20, 2007
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
all world,
it happens all the time. what our team does now is all players vote for the mvp and all tourneys, it works out better. i have never figured it out , how someone who knows they didn't deserve it gives it to them self.good luck in 2008 #6
Dec. 20, 2007
OREO
Men's 60
88 posts
ALLWORLD, BY DOING SO IT MAKES THE TRIP TO
THE SENIOR HALL OF FAME SHORTER, (OR EASIER) IT IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED, AND WANTBE THE LAST.
Dec. 20, 2007
AZBaller
44 posts
Sounds to me the catcher, AKA manager was always picked last in PE for the kick ball teams in grade school, probably not picked at all in high school. He makeing up for all the times he was picked last and not at all.
Dec. 20, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Personally, I do not believe a manager should be able to vote for himself.
Another thing is you all go as a team , play as a team , so you should vote for mvp(s) as a team.
Dec. 20, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
We no longer pick them at the field. Instead, we wait until the scorekeeper does the final stats and we use them along with the subjective things... attitude, defense, base running, etc. This may take 3-4 days but it's better to get it right than to make a snap decision that is just wrong.
For years, the antelopes were taken for granted in favor of the wildebeests... because the latter group hit slightly higher. The older we get, the more important the 'other things' become... in our view.
A manager should have one heck of a weekend (whether he is a catcher or a SS) before he picks himself as an All Tourney... it isn't an 'I' thing... shouldn't be anyway.
It isn't just about an award for a particular weekend as it amounts to a SS HOF point. While we feel that this is the wrong way to pick the HOF, it is the way that it is done. So we feel that we need to be as fair as possible.
BW
Dec. 20, 2007
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
all world,I hope the most important thing was that your team won a world tournment. Our team vote's with player getting most vote's geting mvp, but either way it's done there is always a couple of deserving players left off. In senior ball with the u2 bats defense is real inportant my rule on voting is a catcher or ah has to out hit a position play by .150 to .200 .
Dec. 20, 2007
curty
Men's 60
105 posts
it would be wise to set some criteria before the start of the tourney / season, as to what constitutes an mvp or all tourney award. I am proud to say that i've been on a world tourney winning team, but not so proud of the actions of some other people in the "vote for me " contest. often times, the rabbit guy- the guy that runs for every body- is over looked because he was tired in the finals and his performance suffered. Also, a great hitter may not hit any home runs or have the best average, only say 5 game winning hits in a tournament. How important is defense? does an EH that hits .850 deserve it? even if he needs a runner every at bat? There are things beyond the stats that are immeasurable also. How about the guy that the hit's .350 pts higher than normal? So many area's, no rules.
Dec. 20, 2007
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
First and foremost, softball is a TEAM game. You win as a team and you lose as a team. It takes everyone on the team doing whatever they can do to help make the team a success. Although I am very flattered when voted one of these awards, I am and always will be uncomfortable if and when chosen as all-tournament or an mvp.
Dec. 20, 2007
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
420 posts
Would anyone on this board quit playing if there were no individual awards?
Dec. 20, 2007
stattad
Men's 65
168 posts
Of course we wouldn't, but sometimes it's still a joke. When teams talk about voting for an MVP, they're usually talking about voting out loud, not on paper. After 3 or 4 names are mentioned, it's over. It's very unscientific.

If it were done on paper, it would be VERY interesting, but I have seen tourney officials asking for them less than 5 minutes after the final game, and that leads to quick (and sometimes terrible) decisions.
Dec. 20, 2007
lectricman
8 posts
as manger & player for my 55aaa team i can tell you that the worst part of any tournament is handing out mvp and all tourny awards. i've made the mistake once of picking the five at players once that will never happen again. now all players have a vote and whoever wins wins. unfortunately this does'nt work all the time either, someones ego is always hurt no matter what you do. if i own
Dec. 21, 2007
jc24
96 posts
A/World...like many here...who have been chosen for one or the other a time or so...it's a GREAT !!!! Humbling too.....HONOR...however,,,,the TEAM AWARD is really the ONLY THING that matters..."WE DID IT AS A GROUP!!....the TDs need to give tthe "INDIVIDUAL AWARDS"...whatever they are to the MGR...let them take them home or back to the motel...take some time to vote, talk or whatever AS THE TEAM....who cares at the complext after th weekend who wins WHAT??? The TDs shouldn't....Team Award is the most important award for all the guys to gather and congratulate each other...

Just my humble opinion......GLADY...give up the INDIVIDUAL awards for a TEAM WINNING WEEKEND!!!

JC
#24
Dec. 21, 2007
wagon487
Men's 50
524 posts
One good thing about ASA is that they pick the people who should get the awards.
I played the last two years in Majors and Majors plus, with the same team, same sponor and a small change in personel.
The sponsor would aways pick the same person for MVP, (except once were i snuck in there), acouple of times, other people were more deserving. We had a pitcher who made 2 outs all weekend , great defense and great pitching. Did not get it, went to the sponor's buddy. The SB usually led the team in HR's, but there is more to the MVP than HRs. It's a small price to pay, we were winning, 6 nationals in two years.
It was a great team, everyone got along and we had fun, bottom line.
Dec. 21, 2007
cpope
Men's 60
160 posts
WHAT???? Do senior softball players mave ego's?

Sorry to say but "You bet your a$$'s they do".
also sorry myself is included in the bunch, if you don't have one, you are a very good man.
All Tournament Teams and MVP are a tough desision to make. An AH, catcher or 1B that has to have a runner everytime he gets on base should not ever be chosen, unless he has a 20 for 20 tournament. HR's only don't make a AT or MVP. As said before running, atitude, defence, base hits and of course HR's and RBI.
It has always been the hardest thing a manager has to do, even if he does it correctly. The best way, I think, is have the whole team do it with their egos put aside.
Remember at this age winning one of these tournaments is a great thrill. I know it is for me along with the friends I have made thru the years. And yes I have an EGO. Just ask me. :) :)
Dec. 21, 2007
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
I've been playing this game for along time, just like the rest of the people here. Do i have an ego, you bet I do. And most of the good players, if trueth be told, "do". I grant you, it is a team sport and there are no I's in team. But when they give individual awards, the players that stand out shoud be given those awards. And that's not taking anything from the team, cause you win as a team. But when a manager gets the awards and puts them in his pocket and votes himself all-tourney later, with no fed back from the team that just won the world, it stinks. Well, wish everyone Merry Christmas, and good luck next year.
Dec. 21, 2007
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
The answer is a simple one... no individual awards... then the rest of the associated problems would not exist... sounds like most would rather moan and complain because you didn't get recognized... get a grip!
Dec. 22, 2007
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
sounds to me 19 that u r just like the catcher.u know the one always not getting picked and all. i really don't think you answered my question about explaining to me how a catcher is a impact player or for that matter deserves to make all tournment. So you either proble play catcher or have never won the all-tourney awards we are talking about. So far as individual awards being given out, all i'm saying is give them to the deserving people. PS Sound to me like you have never won one of these awards 19 so you get a grip and realize they give them out for a reason.
Dec. 22, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
All World;
How can any of us explain it? We weren't there.
Since this seems to be an intra-team problem, why don't you look there for the solution?
While you're at it, you might consider changing your psuedonym... maybe Sour Grapes would be a better fit.
it is a team game... get over it or go play tennis.
There are always very deserving players left off the all star team. We just won a tourney in Tucson and 5 guys were picked... an additional 3 guys hit .783 (all 3 of them) and were not named (they were also real high in RBIs)... we never heard a peep from either of them... they were just happy to be on the team and estatic that the TEAM won.
Bob Woodroof
Dec. 22, 2007
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
I think some people are missing the point. One, i think the team should have a say in who get the awards, secondly there was other people more deserving then the catcher=manager, and third, if you win as a team, you should get to vote as a team. and yes i am moving on and playing with another team. Every person has their own thoughts and if you think it's sour grapes thats fine, but you really missed the point, and should go back and read just what was said. As far a team sport, your right, and we have a great group of people, but like i said for the last time, "it left a sour taste in my mouth on how this was done. People can take anyway they'd like, but i still say it was wrong .
Dec. 22, 2007
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
allworld,I think most agree that your mgr should not put him self on AWT if he didn't deserve it. I'm a player/mgr & would not want the added pressure of picking this,thats why we vote. I agree with wood this should be worked out at a team meeting not on message board. You never have said did you make the all word team ?
Dec. 23, 2007
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
my last reply on this subject. Yes i made the all world team and have for the last five years. This was never about me, it was about the unjust that was done to other people on the team. It seems to me, people want to make commits about not being there or sour grapes about other things, and missed the issue that this goes on and why. I will never play for a team again where the manager is the only one to choose and not the team, For if the team would have voted the catcher in, this would have never been posted.
Dec. 23, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Allworld,
Chuck, most of these replies here were valid as to what goes into the choosing these picks. However the real bottom line is right or wrong that is how it was done and can't be changed for that one. Perhaps at the start of your season, get the team to hold a meeting and discuss all the factors that should be used for that decision.
Are you playing for Extream next year?
Dec. 23, 2007
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
No, allworld, I am not currently a catcher, although I have played that position and loved it... a good catcher potentially can be invaluable to his team... However I find two things very curious... first, that you are apparently leaving this team (I suspect a hidden agenda here), and secondly, you have chosen "allworld" as a nic (possibly attesting to your oversized ego)
Dec. 23, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
#19
If this is the guy, (Chuck) I used to play with in the Sac area, he is an excellent player. I also know some of the team members he may have been referring to as well, if it is the team I mentioned in my last post. Happy Holidays to you and your team mates.
Dec. 23, 2007
Joncon
289 posts
"I just got done playing in the worlds in Phoenix, and won another championship."

Congratulations.

It's a girls game being played by a bunch of old men.


Heh heh...all world :)


That being said, it IS pretty funny that a manager would give himself some kind of an award. ....but not any funnier that you complaining about it here :)
Dec. 23, 2007
T.Burk
48 posts
I have played for managers who have picked themselves for AWT and I have been a manager who has chosen players including myself for AWT. I have also played on teams that allowed the players to vote for the AWTs. I know there are flaws any way those teams are chosen, but if you play with guys you like and the manager has integrity, then a player should support the decisions as they are made. I have been a high school coach for 37 years and we have always tried to instill in our athletes that when they play hard and don't worry who gets the credit the team will generally do well. The manager who played catcher and chose himself may have had a reason. If players don't agree or the manger selfishly chose himself, they should play some where else. Our team has always been self-sponsored and to help players out or to cover expenses that needed to be paid, I have had to pay for those things out of pocket. That might warrent a manager to select himself. Maybe just the time time and effort he put in also warrents a vote. Sometimes an AWT player is that individual who contributes things of valuethat goes beyond the outcome of a game or even a tournament. I know that the few times I selected myself to an AWT no one thought ill of me for doing it. Food for thought
Dec. 24, 2007
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
#19,
From what I have been hearing about tucson , maybe we should talk to Gary about moving you to catcher !
#6
Dec. 24, 2007
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
better tucson than vegas #6... that 3 week layoff did me no good!!!
Dec. 24, 2007
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
taits... yeah, allworld has made it all too clear that he is an elite softball player... we are all impressed.... have a wonderful holiday.
Dec. 25, 2007
doker
Men's 60
168 posts
HEY ALLWORLD!!!! I'M A CATCHER WHO MADE ALL TOURNEY AT VEGAS WORLDS AND I'M NOT THE MANAGER!!!..THE CATCHER BELIEVE IT OR NOT CAN BE AS VALUABLE AS ANY SHORTSTOP GIVEN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES....I PROBABLY HAD 4-5 ASSISTS IN THE TOURNEY AND ALL WERE VERY IMPORTANT TO US WINNING....AS WE WON OUR LAST THREE GAMES INCLUDING THE IF GAME BY ONE RUN...POSITION REALLY DOESN'T MATTER AS LONG AS YOU PLAY WELL AT IT!!! AND AS FAR AS SOMEONE RUNNING FOR ANOTHER PLAYER WE FORGET THAT WE ARE OLDER NOW AND IF SOMEONE IS FASTER THAN YOU AND IS AVAILABLE OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO RUN..THAT IS WHAT OUR GAME IS ABOUT IT'S A TEAM GAME..TEAM WINS YOU WIN!! AND I AGREE THERE ARE SOMETIMES INSTINUATING CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WARRANT CHOOSING DIFFERENT PLAYERS FOR ALL TOURNEY...AS THE YEAR GOES ON... THE SAME PLAYERS CAN'T ALWAYS BE ALL TOURNEY IF THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS THEN WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE PLAYERS SURELY SOMEONE ELSE MADE A KEY HIT OR DEFENSIVE PLAY THAT MATTERED...THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!
Dec. 25, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I contend that there is no more valuable a player by position
in baseball/softball than the pitcher.
As he/she is good to excellent so does a team compete.

It is almost a given in sports that "Defense" and not "Offense"
is how you win championships and the pitcher is the leader,
the vanguard of the defense.
Dec. 25, 2007
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
Einstein, its amazing how many men have no concept what a pitcher does for a team. I agree with you totally.
No need to say anymore. My 2 cents.
GT
Houston
Dec. 25, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
I would have to heartily agree with Joe. A pitcher that can somewhat control/disrupt the other teams offensive flow, that can control the middle with his defense, plus string along a timely hit when batting is an invaluable but often overlooked position on a team when it comes to picking all tourney.
Many, many tourneys are lost through the failure to accomplish the above tasks. The pitcher can be a cornerstone of a team and be entirely taken for granted. It's not easy to do what a good pitcher can do consistantly and quite often the game/tourney is won or lost right there. Other player may contribute with the bat or a few good plays but the pitcher is the one position that can gain the control and flow of the game for his/her teammates. The extremely good ones are as rare as a consumate shortstop although they will always be outshined by an outstanding - flashy shortstop (that's not to take anything away from the ss's out there just to recognize everyone's contribution).

When things are going smoothly for them they make it look easy. When a pitcher is struggling that little area of the infield can be to loneliest, most frustrating place on earth for a while.
Dec. 25, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Among the best/most bothersome pitchers I've seen/faced are:
AC Linde of the Old A's
Gary RIchter of Connecticut Sports
Billy who's last name escapes me, Mavericks
Mickey Hughes of Courtesy Auto/Kelley's
Guy who pitched for 55 GSFs. Woody?

There are many more terrific to great pitchers I'm not mentioning.
Maybe some of you would respond with your picks of the best/toughest pitchers
you've seen or faced to give some credit to the unsung MVP of most championship teams.

Just one more thing.
I watched Mickey Hughes shut down a club down, leading to a victory
after giving up
a 16 run inning en route to winning a Lake Tahoe tournament championship.

A great pitcher is constantly adjusting and almost never needs to come out of a game
contrary to popular opinion.
Dec. 25, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
Einstein, his name is Ray Tarazon... one of the toughest people that i have ever played with. Doesn't care if he gets hit with the ball... will play with serious injuries... will relish hitting in tough situations... with all of this, he never talks about himself other than to say that he isn't doing enough.
And one of the nicest, most considerate guys on any team.
By the way, you missed one guy... Corky Northrop from Grimes Trucking... has many of Ray's qualities.
BW
Dec. 26, 2007
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
WAY TO GO WOODY!! I GUESS YOU'LL BE DRINKING CORKY'S RUM IN MENIFEE!!!! BELLY UP TO THE BAR!!!
Dec. 26, 2007
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
einstein: I agree with you when you stated that"Defense" not "Offense" is how you win championships" but it is not a GIVEN, not in senior softball. When a team loses all to often the reason stated is that the team just didn't hit. It is a rarity when a losing team player will acknowledge that their defense gave up more runs than they could score themselves. Consistently good defensive teams are almost always in a position to win and it all starts with with a consistently good defensive pitcher. Our Top Gun pitcher, Tmi Taylor, was awarded co-defensive player of the year in recognition for his contribution to the team success in 2007. Bobby K.
Dec. 26, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
Crusader:
Not so fast... the Saturday thing in Tucson was an anomoly resulting from a rain out... and I had none of his rum... but there was some great male bonding.
BW
Dec. 27, 2007
Mango
Men's 50
90 posts
Gentlemen,
For the last 10 years I have primarily played catcher. I don’t think you will ever get an argument from anybody that has ever played this game at a high level that the most important position on the field is the pitcher. You really get an appreciation (catching) for just how much of an impact a good pitcher can have on a game. By the way –IMO a good catcher can help his pitcher and have an impact on the game in a number of ways.

Wood - I agree with you. I had the privilege of catching for Ray a couple of years ago. Ray Tarazon is all those things you said about him and more. He is probably one of the most underrated pitchers around, maybe because he’s only been playing softball for a few years.

Einstein – Bill from the Mavericks is Billy Gombos. He will be pitching for Evolution this year. I have caught for him before. I agree with you. He is a very god pitcher. And obviously Mickey Hughes is one of the best. I’ve been catching for him for several years now and I’ve seen him completely baffle hitters. I’m glad I only have to hit off him in BP.

Sorry for the long post but one more thing –Joey email me with your new email address. Everything I send you keeps getting returned.

Mango
Dec. 28, 2007
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Hey Mango! It’s you buddy bashbro1. I haven’t seen you since I believe when you caught me at the Phoenix airport (Worlds) walking by and you were in the bar with your 40 year old buddies celebrating wildly with a championship surrounded by a gaggle of HOT chicks!

Hey, I’m a “catcher” too and a good one if I don't say so myself. However, since I make no tag plays @ home plate, and rarely can any outfielder throw that far with any accuracy, I don’t have to catch the ball cleanly and normally the pitcher can’t see my signals from 50’ away…. so I say we should be ineligible for an Defensive all-star recognition.

Furthermore, I recommend that we let the “freaking” SSUSA umpire catch and move the catcher to say a “short fielder” position (I qualify cause I’m short) thereby adding a 10th defender to the defense and I think Joe einstein would like that as well. With the ump now being responsible for the catching duties maybe he can see the stupid mat better! LOL

Bashbro1 ( W.E. Ruth 60’s Player/Webmaster/Communications Officer/Recruiter/CATCHER!)
Dec. 28, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bash and Mango,
Yes, Bash.
I do like your idea about umps becoming catchers as an idea
that has some merit but having been a catcher in hard ball for a number of years
I agree with Mango that a catcher can do a ton to influence the outcome of a game.
Mango, congrats on hitting your butt off in Phoenix even though Kelly's didn't prevail.
You have shown you belong named with the best hitters in Senior ball.
What are you and Mickey doing next year?
i heard...with the Mavericks.

Let me know and happy holidays to you and the Mick.
Give him my email address too would you?
joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
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