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Discussion: Move to metal bats

Posted Discussion
Jan. 1, 2008
mtman
30 posts
Move to metal bats
Our league is thinking of moving to metal bats only to handle the confussion and concerns of composite bats.
Is this a wise move or an over reaction ?
Jan. 1, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2629 posts
It means everyone will have to buy another bat. I believe it is an over reaction. In our league we use ASA bats. Using them really holds the hrs down. Maybe your league is afraid of shaved bats. They should make the penalty for using an altered bat suspension for 5 or 10 yrs, maybe for life!
Jan. 1, 2008
mtman
30 posts
Not only shaved bats but ASA, USSSA, 1.20, it is just getting to hard to keep track of what is what. I think they want to keep it simple. Montana simple as they say.
Jan. 1, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4334 posts
Bruce, Happy New Year
I think if one was to look at past history & just what bats were being being shaved, sleeved or loaded you'd find metal bats were it.
The PST, Demo, and the like were popular. When the comp's came into the scene it was decals or painted bats, some shaving and now rolling. All of which you can find on almost any board out there, and ebay.
I believe at the Huntsman games there were 3 pulled in the first week. I didn't ask about any others later on. Those were comp's,
Jan. 1, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2629 posts
Taits, I agree with what you said until you got to rolling. A rolled bat and a bat with 200 swings are essentailly the same. Lets don't debate rolling, please. :)
Jan. 1, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4334 posts
Unless you reply, my only comment is that it's mechanical, (Otherwise yes). Hitting with a rubber mallet is closer to hits with a ball. When I was speaking to them at Huntsman, 6 players were using a mallet on new Miken bats. They were allowed to do that....
Jan. 1, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Maybe if more leagues did that Worth would bring the PST back though I really do love my Mut98 also.
Jan. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Fred et al.
I think and feel so therefore I believe
the crux of the problem is not the bats
but the ball.
We can go to metal bats tomorrow for my sake
but what happens when some tournament director
trots out a sub par ball?
Can't drive or feel good hitting it
and that satisfaction is primary
to the whole softball experience for most of us.

We seem to be going in the right direction in Senior ball.
Miken level bats and decent balls.
Then, very few are going to feel cheated or exploited
for their investment in having real fun.
Jan. 2, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
einstein: I agree the ball makes a big difference. All the better bats in each assoc are fairly equal and it comes down to your personal perference for comfort and feel.

But there is such a variation between balls. I agree that more uniformity in balls should be the assoc's primary objective in the future. The balls may be marked 44/375's but the performance difference between them makes you wonder which ball is really a 44/375. I realize that there will always be a small variation with balls (Even in the same batch) but not the wide difference we have now.

We use Worth Gold dot ASA 44/375 during our weekend league and we use Evil Microcells ASA 44/375 for our weekday league and there is no comparison between the two. The Worth's are duds and Evil's are rockets. In fact the Weekday players(who also play weekends) got together at a board meeting and had the vote to use the Evil's next year.
Jan. 4, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4334 posts
Fred, Stoneman posted vg info on balls, although it;'s 4 years old, it's still valid. Balls are still made in same places by same companies in the same manner.
Your absolutely correct on the two balls mentioned, but you may be very very interested in the background of the latter's maker. Please do some research.
Jan. 4, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
I know his background.

Forgetting the Evil's. There is a certain segement of the softball world that hate him for some reason that everything he does is Evil.

I played in a tournament that use a Demarini 44/375 and they weren't even close to the Worth Super Gold Dot 44/375 we were using in our league.

Same as in our tournament we ran they used a Dudley ball (I forget which one) 44/375 that was worse then the Demarini's

They may all be made in the same place but not in the same manner.

You can state all the articles you want but it is what happens on the field that counts.
Jan. 4, 2008
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
FRED: Here is a 2 yr old post from WORTH..

bwilliams@worthsports.com

MEN'S SLOWPITCH COR COMPRESSION HIT DISTANCE
Super Blue Dot .47 525 300 ft.
Blue Dot .47 525 296 ft.
Blue Dot Low Com .47 375 282 ft. Super Gold Dot .44 525 282 ft.
Gold Dot .44 525 278 ft.
Gray Dot .40 525 258 ft.

WOMEN'S SLOWPITCH COR COMPRESSION HIT DISTANCE
Super Green Dot. 47 525 275 ft.
Green Dot . 47 525 271 ft.
Green Dot (.44). 44 525 250 ft.
FASTPITCH COR COMPRESSION SIZE
Red Dot (88-Stitch Hot Seam) .44 400 11" or 12"
K-Master (120-Stitch Seam) .47 400 12"
Dream Seam (88-Stitch Seam ) .47 400 11" or 12"
RIF (88-Stitch Hot Seam) .47 150 11" or 12"
______________________________________________

FRED....... I still to this day, do NOT understand...WHY ALL the different BALLS???

WHY??? R some balls made for 258 ft to 300 ft. I believe that most SENIORS, want a ball that when hit, will fly 300 ft.

A 44 cor 525 comp ball that is made for only 278 ft. What r or have Ball MFG's, thinking????

More Curves......... The STONEMAN...
Jan. 4, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
I have that. It is about 10 yrs old. I am not sure what they were using for bats at that time but those figures aren't even close to the performance of today's bats.

I realize that it may be tough to do but with today's technology they should be able to make a 44/375 ball that is fairly consistent within all the mfg's. I also realize that it says a max of 44/375 which leaves a lot of leeway on what the compression actually is.

I did read a study that showed that the compression was different on the four sides of the ball.

Until the assoc's enforce a strict compliance to the 44.375 standard we will continue to have these wide variation in balls in different tournaments.

We are lucky in a way that most all the SSUSA tournaments use the same ball so we don't have that wide variation between SSUSA tournaments.
Jan. 5, 2008
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
MAN on FIRE & FRED: This may help players pick a proper BAT?
Have u seen this article by: SOFTBALLHITTING.COM?

The following should help you in understanding the ball compression and how it relates to certain bats. I have broken it down to what I hope is an easier to understand format, because I know it can be confusing.

375lbs low compression = more flexible or 'mushy' does not perform well with high flex bats. DO NOT USE A BAT THAT has a great deal of FLEX! Use a STIFF BAT!

400lb-475lbs. mid compression = medium flexibility still performs OK with most bats.

525lb. compression= harder ball-performs well with almost any bat on the market, but especially juiced or high flex models etc.

Core 47= more flexible bouncy or 'mushy'
Core 44= medium flexibility
Core 40= less flexible


As you can see here if you were to have a core 40 with a low compression ball you still will have decent almost mid performance, which I have found to be true in my own testing as well. But as soon as you pair up low comp with core 44 or 47 now you have much more loss in performance with the high flex bats and why I now recommend the RT CK with those balls. Anything mid and above will perform well with high flex bats and juiced bats. The ultimate for ball hardness would be 525lbs. paired up with core 40 not 47. I know many balls are paired more with 525lbs. and core 47, but the 47 is not what makes those balls fly so far, it is the compression.

NOTE: A balls COMPRESSION & NOT a balls core is the most important factor!!!! So, a 40 core ball w/ a 525 compression, in 50 degree weather, will "fly" a long way.

Endloaded bats will in all instances make any ball fly farther, but in the case of low compression with core 44 and 47, it may not be enough to overcome the loss in performance that is experienced from the flexibility of the ball.

Outside temperature and the climate you may play in will also effect performance. Cooler temps will keep the ball harder and flying farther. Warmer temps will keep the ball more flexible and mushier.

Also bat weight also factors into hitting a ball for distance. The heavier the bat and the heavier the endload you can swing the better for distance, even and or especially on the mush balls.

I hope this may help some pick the right Bat(s) or Balls; in League or Tournaments.

The STONEMAN........
Jan. 6, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Stoneman.
That's the most interesting and effective presentation
regarding balls and their value and taught me a bunch.
Jan. 6, 2008
Punch
Men's 60
12 posts
STONEMAN,I thank you for the time and effort, in your posting. At last I now understand, in plain terms the difference b/w Corr. and Compression. And the effect that it has on the myriad choices b/w bats and balls, along with the influence that temperature plays into the equation. Keep up the good work!
Jan. 6, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
I hate to be stubborn (but that is my nature) all that is well and good and looks impressive but you can't make a statement or charts or whatever that a 44/375 ball are all the same. It is just making a general statement that all 44's will act alike we we know that is not a fact.

Explain to me why a Worth Yellow Gold Dot 44/375 or a Demarini 44/375 can't even come close in performance to a Thunder Heat 44/375.

In BP today those Thunder's well outdistance the other two balls by quite a bit. I used three different bats, Demarini Bruiser, PST98Z and a JHMUT120 with the same results on all three bats.
Jan. 6, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4334 posts
Fred, I know for a fact that some balls marked (for this or that) may not in actuality be what was actually produced. The cor\comp stamp gets stamped on long after. sometimes not even in the same plant.
Also, those test by those respected people doing the testing on balls, should show some other aspect to ball performance as well.
I've had some BP balls with over 1500 hits on then and some other that went south after a game or two, both were same maker. you never know what the guy who was actually doing any quality control in the making process was doing at the time.
Jan. 6, 2008
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
FRED: I have a friend that went to Hitia, several times a yr. When my friend came back, he brought back a "load" of Softballs. These Softballs were 4 his Tournament team.

As the story goes, the balls were marked any way that my friend asked. He brought 50 core balls w/ 525 comp & had these balls marked as 47 core balls w/ 400 comp.

Another "friend" of mine, went to China. In the back of one of that Ball Markers warehouses, were huge binds of Softball. 2-3 binds, as the story goes. All 50 core balls were in one bind. (375 comp, 450 comp, & 525 comp.)

All 47 core balls in another bind. All 40 & 44 core balls were in the last bind. This ball marker did NOT care about anything but, sell' of their Balls...PERIOD....

QUESTION?? Fred, have u asked WORTH 4 product infor on their Super Gold Dot? I bet that ball is made to travel less than 280 ft..............

Last point... in Palm Springs, that City's rec head, tells us Seniors all the time that we r hitt' 47 core balls w/ 525 comp. The balls in question, have written, "City of P.S. Parks & Rec". No core or comp.......

Fred...... the only answer...... "they" will do what "they" want.

Sorry..... 4 the NO help........ The STONEMAN
Jan. 7, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Some good points

We use the Worth Super Gold Dot 44/375's in our weekend league and we have a few players in our upper div (mostly 55-60) that put that ball around the 300' + with a variety of top of the line ASA bats.

Note: I assume no one is cheating with the bats?????
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