http://www.softballcamp.com/

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 1 member: Mac21; 20 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: Rule changes - where are all the Major Plus players opinions?

Posted Discussion
Jan. 23, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Rule changes - where are all the Major Plus players opinions?
I have not seen the response to the rule changes that I would have expected from Major Plus players on this board. I am really disappointed, upset and discouraged by the home run rule changes especially. Add to that the attempt to protect the pitcher after home runs are gone with the ridiculous DBO rule. I am thinking about trying to find a Major Team where at least over the limit HR\'s will still be singles and not DBO\'s. Do you think others are thinking the same and sandbagging will get worse now? I understand the need for pitcher safety which in my opinion can be addressed with bat and ball changes and enforced by the players as history suggests. I can accept the run rule and others, but why should Major Plus be the ONLY divsion that has DBO\'s after the HR limit is gone? It makes no sense. Please speak up and let us hear your opinion Major Plus players. I don\'t see 2008 being as much fun as we have enjoyed with SSUSA in the past if these rule changes stay in place. If I could only change one, it would be HR\'s are singles after the limit. Don\'t make the big guys change their swings and start chopping down pitchers, first basemen and third basemen. DBO protection rule or not, the easiest place to get a line drive single is up the middle for a lot of people. 10 feet high over the pitchers head is a perfect single, miss it a little and watchout.
Jan. 23, 2008
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Did they also limit Hr's in the 40 division?

As a 50 M/Plus payers I have no problem with the piticher safety rule, our local regular tournament as well as leagues have gone to this.

Doesn't make since to close down the middle and at the same time restrict home runs. How about 12 and one up?
Jan. 23, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey George,
The decision to give a dead ball out to anyone who hits the pitcher
is not a meaningful deterrent for hitting the middle.
Oops, I'm out. My bad.
And when you give the big guys, as you said, a reason not to take the ball
out of the park, you are jeopardizIng all the short infielders.
There's a myopia present regarding some of these decisions.
Again, had they asked you or I or any of the major plus guys
they would have been straightened out on what to do or not to do.
Jan. 23, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Joey - you are the only pitcher I have ever seen lay out horizontally to catch a line drive shot and get the guy out. Remember Fremont with No Dice. That was a fun time for both of us. Well now all you have to do is lay out and let it hit your arm. He's out. Doh, Is Homer Simpson on the rules committee? Am I paranoid or does it seem like Major Plus is being penalized for some strange reason? Is this backlash from the unlimited run games that were instituted last year in Major Plus? Is there too many balls being lost? We can bring more. If time is the issue, use the time limit. How can all divisions except Major Plus be able to hit he ball over the fence for singles?
Jan. 23, 2008
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
George, I believe the major plus players have said their piece. Now it will be up to the associations to digest that information and see if our complaints are valid. I can tell you for the two major plus teams I am associated with the 12 home run limit and then a DBO is a joke. The 7 runs per inning results in the lesser team winning about 30 to 40% of the games and the DBO will not protect the pitcher.

Now, I sent out a tentative schedule to my 55 major plus team last week and I am now re-evaluating that schedule to see if we want to stay with the schedule or drop several tournaments with these rules.

Our major plus teams are built on power and if you restrict homerun (especially only 10 for 55s) then you put my team at a disadvantage, as to have unlimited power, you give up some defense. So do I tell several of my bombers that they changed the rules and I am dropping you and picking up a punching Judy that can play better defense?

I can not do that to men that I have already given my word to. Several years ago we played a tournament in Atlanta where they used 47 core balls, Ultras and only 3 players could hit homeruns. Anyone else that hit a homerun was an inning ending out. Bear in mind that everyone on that team can hit homeruns. My bombers could not keep the ball in the park with those hard balls we lost several games to inferior teams. Guess what. Even though it was a well run tournament and close for us we all voted not to return. In fact, in an effort not to hit a homerun, I hit one up the miidle that barely missed the pitchers head. The ball was chopped down and went out anyway but by the time I ran to first base the pitcher was there to confront me. You will see more of this because my experiences say that the big hitters (and by that I mean the most powerful hitters) do not necessarily have the best bat control.

I am sure there are other sponsors looking at the alternatives. if I can find a more fun venue for my team that has more unlimited rules than that is where we will go.

The way I see this is the associations have shown the major plus division their lack of loyalty and concern for us. Therefore, if they are not willing to change we will vote with our dollar by considering other venues. What other choice do we have when we have voiced our opinion, had an advisory committee give theirs and then both are ignored?
Jan. 23, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Hi Audie, Well put. I hope that SSUSA reads your message and understands that is what will be the effect of these rule changes. Unfortunate, because in my short 4 years of Senior ball, I have always liked SSUSA the best. I like the events, Dave and Franny and up until now, the rules. Hopefully, they will listen to the voices of the affected players and revaluate. Good luck this year Audie wherever you decide to play.
Jan. 23, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey George and Audie,
SSUSA needs more than changing a rule to convince teams like Hollis, Kelly's, Mac 2
and the Old A's that their tournaments will be worth the investment.
Huntsman, for one, has tournaments that are fabulous
and everyone knows it.
NorCal is capable and considering forming our own association
and if done, it will rock.
SSUSA needs to learn that we will support them
only if they want to be supportive of us and our needs.
I think the price of softballs weighs into their decision to limit Major Plus home runs.
We hit a bunch and lose a lot of balls.
But that problem can be dealt with more directly and better, easily.
I think they don't make much money with us, Major Plus
and their trying to bolster, support, beef up the lower levels at our expense.
Obviously, there's a lot involved but I don't get why SSUSA doesn't share with us,
be more direct as to the problems they are facing and ask us, poll us, learn from us
especially when as fantastic a vehicle as this message board exists.
Jan. 23, 2008
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
Maybe Major+ players have figured out that SSUSA don't care about them since that has probably always been the case??? Or maybe we have just come to realize that complaining about things that we don't have control over is just a waste of time?

I don't like having homerun limits in Major+ but seems like NATIONAL TOURNAMENT organizations see fit to do so. This is due to many reasons but mainly because you can't get many teams to play major or major+ because most travel teams are affraid of spending large amounts of money just to get beat up at the major or major+ level.

Most of the complaining about teams not being good enough to play major+ ball drives associations like SSUSA to not caring about this division because they can't make any money off them!!! I don't care what anyone says it always comes down to MONEY!!!!

Major and Major+ teams complain alot about rules and other things. Why? Well I feel it is because we are very competitive and we have very strong personalities. Which does not make us the best sports at times either but that is the nature of the beast. So if you are the minority of teams in these events and are the ones who create the most problems then it just does not make good business to go out of your way to provide for them!!!

Every association changes their rules each year with the most rules changes impacting the major and major+ programs! I see this as nothing more or less than the same old thing so what good does or will it do to complain? Lots of complaining with little results is the status quo!

Maybe I will feel better about it later and have a more thoughtfull response then but for now.... :-(
Jan. 23, 2008
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
Forgot to say that based on the rule as listed for pitcher getting hit it says that it must be a line drive that does NOT hit the pitchers arms and that the pitcher must not already be in a defensive or fielding position.

So from that I would interpret it to mean that if the pitcher is trying to field the ball, even a line drive then it is not a dead ball out!!!!! But who knows how it will be enforced at this point unless you have played with this rule in the 40's division already? If so then maybe you can tell the rest of us how the umpires have been instructed to make this "JUDGEMENT" call???
Jan. 23, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
I agree with you, GeHall44. The DBO is one of the BIG reasons that softball is not as popular with the twenty/thirty- something people as it was when we played. They say "why the hell should I play a game where if I hit it over the fence, I'm out! Now it's creeping into the senior game. I don't think I would play if I couldn't "swing away".
Jan. 23, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
To tcadmw1I played in the 40's under the rule as described and it just did not come into play. I only recall seeing it called once probably in 20+ games. Here is one mans opinion as a 1st year senior who would have liked to participate at the major plus level the draw for hitting the ball over the fence is a pretty powerful aphrodisiac. It is not cut out for everyone and I personally believe a home should be made via recruiting the new 40's allowing teams to play up without penalty and actually some reward given to teams who venture up, or some creative new scenarios setup to draw in teams. Several weeks ago I threw out an idea for an anything goes tournament and the response was tepid, if I was an organization looking at that post and the lack of response I probably would say not alot of interest next idea. All styles of play should be encouraged, great defense, speed etc but in the end at the major plus level the best team needs to be standing, and there should be no doubt. We have two 50 major plus teams in the states that border mine Nevada, I would guess California, Nevada, Arizona, and Utah could support 2 great ones 3-4 good ones and 3-4 who need improvement. I don't agree with the home run rules for one simple fact those teams will probably never form. What I have chosen to do is get more involved and work towards convincing guys my age and a little younger the senior game is the place to be and take a look at the major /major plus game. The bottom line for guys my age is that we still have value in the young mans game and we don't have to travel to play really good ball if we don't want to, Play a C or B UTRIP tournament and try finding a hole in their 5 man infield or hitting against a guy coming at you from all directions off the pitching mound or against a gazelle in center field that is a rush in itself. Now your asking us to limit HR's which we have been on the outside looking at all you guys hitting home runs at will, great bats the list goes on and on, I have 48 and 49 year old friends with babies or young teens you know 50 is the new 40, If I ever was to get the chance the wide open game against the best players would have been fun to try, maybe a compromise is in here somewhere. Sorry to ramble a lot of thoughts thrown out hopefully it was constructive criticism.
Jan. 23, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
The last sentence was a mess it actually had thoughts from friends of mine with 50 being the new 40 and these gentlemen having babies and young teens there has to be something to pull them away from local tournaments into senior ball and it really needs to be different. In a year or two a competitive major plus team could be formed out of Las Vegas with the players hovering around that 50 mark but I don't think the new rules would interest them.
Jan. 24, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Guy's ,
This comes from me, I have not spoken to SSUSA but in thinking of some of these issues I see many problems with the major+ divisions and no real answer to correct them.

Each year I travel and work many senior events, this is the best part of my job. The people are great, the events are great, meeting new friends, well you get the point.

All I see are the best players at each level on the same teams battling it out every event. Now you take the border restrictions and the same teams from each area will always have the best players from that area. It's been that way from the beginning and will be that way in the end. So my question is when major teams get bumped up how do they compete?

Let's take Florida just as an example, please don't take offense. What 55 major team has a chance to beat Hollis appraisals? None. So why would a major team want to move up? What gives them the desire to try to win when if they do they will be penalizing themselves. I know the intent is to build the best team that you can but I think this also hurts the program when others can't compete. I know it has been this way since competion has begun long before all of us, but senior softball is alittle different. It really is a recreational sport. Senior players can do what ever they want. They have the brains and money to choose what they want to do and when the program is not competitive they will spend their money on other activites. Therefore hurting the program instead of helping the program

The problem is the system works fine until you get to the top level, there is to big of gap between most of the major teams and major+ teams (not all but most) this will continue through the age groups because we all age the same. Remeber there is no place for the top teams to move up to so they need to figure out how to fairly move teams up to the top level. If you win at a lower level you have to move up, if you win in major plus you get to stay their. every body complains about not enough teams at major+ tourny's, that won't change unless they can be competitive at that level. (notice I didn't say win) No team should be that much better that they are win almost every tourny they play.

Here's just a thought, like in the lower levels of softball. Since the major+ teams have no place to move up, if you win the world championship your team is only allowed to return 5 players from it's roster (maybe 5 isn't the number) This would spread the talent out amoung other teams and also will create new teams to play. There is a log jam at the top with no defined answer to fix it.
Jan. 24, 2008
bogie
Men's 55
154 posts
Good points Kevin.
Since SSUSA is considering different rules for major plus, why not go all the way ...and to get more competitive teams into the division...why not open up the rosters and borders. True someone with money can get 12 of the best players, but the top 60 players nationally in each age group from AAA, major and major plus are relatively an even talent pool, and it would give opportunities for those who wanted to create a major plus team. Or maybe if you are major and win a national, perhaps then your roster opens up as you go major plus and 2 or 3 add ins would make you a major plus power.
I am relatively new to the senior game but it appears to me that major plus teams do not break up to go back to the lower classes with more teams, because a) they have a sponsor who wants the major plus team b) the players are close and tightknit and want to continue to play with the same group of friends at the highest level.. I have seen alot of AAA, major and major plus teams play, and they are alot of major plus calibar players, playing on AA, AAA, and major teams, so perhaps opening the borders would allow more major plus teams..
I personally would like to see less rules for major plus, unlimited hruns, but I do like the stability that 5 or 7 runs per inning max brings. Why put limits on the offense of the best teams in the nation. Govern time by closed innings and time limits. JMO
Jan. 24, 2008
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
Good comments Kevin, Lecak, and bogie. Please bear with me but here I go again. This has been discussed before but like Einstein said, why not create an organization for major and major+ only. Make a circuit out of it just like the young guys do. I tried organizing this a couple of years ago and got the cold shoulder from all the so called Major and Major+ managers. Why? I don't know since they never volunteered to join in.

The idea is simple, setup a circuit that moves around the country so everyone travels the same amount and stays home the same amount. Get teams to committ up front with MONEY!!! So even if they don't make the tournaments there is capital investment from everyone to keep the tournaments going. Since this is run by the teams then you take away the current problem of associations not cartering to us because it is all about the MONEY to them! The product at the end of the day would be exactly what we want it to be since we are the ones driving and paying for it!!

Heck if the right people organized or got involved in this (Anaconda, Trump, etc?? hint hint Kevin lol) the awards, balls, bats, etc., could be covered by the capital investments maybe??? Anyway, like I said it is just an idea that keeps going around but the only real way for Major+ teams to play softball the way they want to play it is to DO IT THEMSELVES!!!!

Mike Walker
Hollis Appraisals
Jan. 24, 2008
william wallace
42 posts
Kevin,
Your idea about the winners of Major Plus are VG only problem is you would have to convince the SSUSA to give up the regional rule that is now in place for some people and I have been told that is not going to happen.

All those considering going to the Major division what makes you think this rule will not be part of the Major division next year. I predict this is only the beginning of Major changes through out the SSUSA.
Jan. 24, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Mike,
I am not sure that would work for anyone involved. How many teams do you think would commit to something like this? There is not that many teams out there now at the top to cover the exspense of putting on the tourny's. Secondly what would entice teams to move up and play if they are going to get the @#$'$ handed to them each week? It's hard to get teams to play in major+ now whith the rules that are pretty fair for all. With the bats and balls of today you see alot games ending in the third inning with a score of 40 to 18. Who wants to be on the back side of that game? Right now the few teams that are plying are at least competitive in the program but the more ability you give the major+ to score runs the farther away from major you get. Then the major teams that win will not move up and play major+ wil split up and play down again. So what did the program? Nothing.

As far as the money in senior softball, I have no idea what they make but I do how many hours you have to work inorder to put on a tourny. Time is money, and they have to pay their staff, umpires, fields etc. I am sure it is far less than most believe.

And with that being said I keep hearing the word catering, why should anyone be catered to? Hell If I was running it I would cater to the class that has the most teams not the least. Remember the most teams are suppling the most money to the program.

Now I know I didn't make any friends with these statments but I do want to hear the players answer to my questions, enlighten me on your thoughts and let me think about some of this for awhile.

Again a good idea is only as good as it's delivery.
Jan. 24, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Why would you have to give up that rule?
Jan. 24, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Mike Walker could you please call me

Joe Lecak
702-528-6365
Jan. 24, 2008
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
Hi Trumpball & all concerned: Has anyone given any thought to dominant major+ teams playing dowm an age group or two for the purpose of increasing competitive balance? Any thoughts?
Jan. 24, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Hot corner I don't think I get your question.
Jan. 24, 2008
william wallace
42 posts
Kevin if your question was an retort to my question then it is simple. If you break up the Major + teams after they win worlds then your pool of players will end up like NFL coaches just recycled from year to year and team to team. In the end IMHO you will just have the samething you have now.
If however the SSUSA would follow the Spa rule on land locked players who have no major + teams to play for you would add at least 10 to 12 players to this mix which could end up making the recycling a little less.

Now with that said our land locked regional player is going to play major this year and it looks like because of the rules he will be better off.
Jan. 24, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Tournament ranking et al;
Some teams seem to choose their tournaments (as most do anyway) to where should they win, they will not be either moved up and or RE-rated\ranked.
I’ve played with teams that have chosen to intentionally loose a game in order to get into another bracket, (usually the losers) and work their way back. Usually not succeeding but some have. While I understand the logic, some teams were too tired to continue and see it through.
I don’t like the idea of throwing a game but I guess it’s akin to sandbagging in some respects.
Perhaps the idea Kevin (trumpball) had about the Major and or M+ teams winning which ever one was mentioned or even a different tournament or an specific number of tournaments or even overall game wins, during the year, (calendar) and forcing to split may inspire some thought. Most likely, Neg.
But perhaps a number (?), how about half of the winning actual playing roster(s) for that team(s) effected.
If not just to build the division(s). They would be starting with a core for a team, yes, who does the split, the sponsor, mgr or even the teams input, who knows.
But they could rebuild and would, could, should, recruit from the lower ranks.
There will be doubt be a lot of negative to this, but two teams from one to build a division up is not with out some looking at, or consideration. This may just not be that way. The same could also be applied to the lower divisions, move them up after so many tournament wins but preferably game wins during the year.
Move them down for the same reason, game loss over wins.
Perhaps a ratio could be worked out, tournaments entered if you can get that info from other assns. overall wins, losses. Maybe a win75-80 \ loss25-20 record.
This would move teams around be able to play other teams assuredly shake a few trees for sure. But at the same time inspire to do better, hopefully.
Sure it will involve looking at teams more closely, but may build the divisions that need more teams.
Try this “rule out, and let all “see” what happens. Might be too late to change now anyway. There is always next year….
Just a thought to ponder over.
Jan. 24, 2008
OREO
Men's 60
88 posts
Just a thought, if there are teams out there that win everything in major plus and have no where to move. What about the possibility for example of the 55major+ team moving the next year to 50major level & so on??
Jan. 24, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
To no one in particular:
I do not like the new rules either. I understand the basic concpet behind them but I do not like the application of them at all...
1) 50, 55, & 60 major + teams have HR restrictions... the older we are, the fewer we can hit... I'm not sure why. But once we become 65 it isn't an issue any longer. Huh?
2) major teams can hit as many as they want w/o penalty. ????
3) DBO (pitcher safety rule)... why is it not important in the other levels (major, AAA, AA)? Do they have better fielders? Does anyone care about their injuries? Or is it because the major + hitters hit the ball so much harder? I believe that many feel this way but I think that the difference is minimal (forget a couple of exceptions).
Clearly, these rules have the continuity, clarity and common sense of our income tax code. The latter was amended at many different times and by many different SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS. It is my personal hunch that this is what we're seeing now. Of course, this was done in 'the best interest of softball'... a mandatory catch phrase when legislation comes in the back door.
Having stated all of this, most of which has been stated and re-stated by many others, I wish to address this concept of 'team splitting'. Are we not cutting off our nose on this one?
If I own a beach front home and, as a result, I am deemed 'too successful' should I split it into 2 homes and move them inland? (granted, this isn't the prefect analogy).
My team is always made up of many friends and long term relationships... I have no interest in splitting them up. We have to do some of this every 5 years or so already and I didn't like it then (3 months ago)... but it was a choice WE made.
We have the freedom to choose from among many senior softball assns when we compile our schedule. We should play in the ones that make the most sense to us... and only those.
We have many bright, articulate folks on this message board. Surely we can find a solution that isn't worse than the problem.
BW
Jan. 24, 2008
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
Hi Trumpball: You made the comment that many winning teams are reluctant to move-up in class because they feel they cannot compete/win at the higher skill level. Therefore, they opt to break-up and regroup. You also stated that a dominate major+ team has nowhere to go. I'm suggesting that the dominate Major+ team could play down in age the help the competitive inbalance that so many teams seem to fear.Example: 65 major+ plays 60 Major/Major+. Your thoughts?
Jan. 24, 2008
PattyMac
96 posts
Softball is a hitter's game! Why make changes to hinder the hitters? Hitting is why we all play this game. I have never asked any of my softball buddies to "lets go take some grounders" but I do love to go "hit some".

Senior softball is supposed to be fun. If they are going to make a change then do away with all the classes. Make 2 divisions - recreational and competitive and let combing 50 and 55 divisions.

Recreational = no homeruns and competitive = unlimited.

No more sandbagging, stand up or stand down.

I hate all the changes every year by the organizations.

Leave it alone or improve it according to what the players want.
Jan. 24, 2008
BMC13
Men's 50
35 posts
PattMac...Amen!! Let's just play softball!
Jan. 24, 2008
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Lets see how it plays out. Looks like a preminum will be placed on defense, base hitting as wellas the home run.
Jan. 24, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Georgee,
You really got the spiggets open.
Great discussion.

Kevin,
How come you're not hard at work selling bats?
Senior softball is a whole with a top a middle and a bottom.
If you cut off the top, you decapitate it and do not have senior softball but, rather
something much less if at all.
It's like having minor leagues without the majors.

I'll let you in on a secret of mine.
Playing great is more about character than ability.
Guys with character will rise up to any occasion and compete.
I won't mention any names but teams I've played for and on
have won and been felled by guys who "came to play".
The minute one team rises to the top
others rise up, become motivated to knock them off.
Michael Jordan pushed the banner to another level
and more players believe, learn and assimilate to become
as good and better than him.

Major plus is special.
It's the best players in the world playing to see who's the best.
This is the essence of it, Kevin.
To see who can say they're the best there is at a given moment in time,
unblemished and everlasting.
You have to beat the best, to be the best

The rules should be virtually unlimited so that competition is paramount
Thie major plus phenomenon in many of its forms
is attractive, necessary to the essence of senior softball and marketable
if associations have the wit and grit to bring it to life.

Unlimited home runs, unrestricted geography (right on, Bog)
and a team that's marked by character and great defense,
starting with the pitcher, will compete for the championship
every time.

Hey Mike.

Patty, you're right on the money and a team that can steal a couple of outs
and bother a couple of those bombers can drop a giant in its tracks.
Jan. 24, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Hey Joe, I've enjoyed reading all the discussions and opinions on this. I've also been thinking that my golf index will really go down if I stop traveling around to softball tourneys all the time. All the players seem to agree on the HR rule. Did you ever try to share an 8 slice pizza pie with 5 big and hungry guys? That's what it's going to be like with a 12 HR limit. There will be a lot of grumpy hungry guys around after the HR's are gone. Why can't we all get a piece of the pie? : ) I can picture MK39 going crazy when his big stud HR bombers have to try to dink one to right field, like I used to try to do. Haha.
Jan. 25, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
This was just my thoughts, don't get offended if you don't agree. I actually like the forum of this thread and many more should be like this. Many different opinions being aired no name calling and argueing, what a breath of fresh air to see us all including me act like adults.

In the younger divisions you have 2 major teams in the country. All of the rest are playing Class A ball or lower. The reason for this is that the 2 have the best teams by a big margin. None of the others can compete with them, last year every tournament they played in they won. One of the teams won almost all of the events. Now many of the major players ahve no place to play so they are filtering down to A and B teams. Which is pushing A and B players to C and D, which pushes those players to E or out of the game.

Like in everything we do, you have to build from the bottom, houses, business's, automobiles, trees, etc. With these programs going backwards there is no chance of growing. The associations are losing players evry year due the way they are governed and unless they make changes to move teams fairly up the ladder, my generation my be the last in senior softball. At the younger level players are getting out of the game at a much younger age, due to the rules which allow the game no growth for the average players. Class E teams are fully sponsored teams with some players in there 30's and 40's with 10-20 years experience playing tourny's. Where does the kids that played ball togehter in H.S. start their career as a softball player.


Would you want to take a job that you know you may never be good enough to advance and if you do it may be the end of your job. That is what is happing to some teams that are made to move but can't compete. No team should think they will win at any level but they all should feel the can be competitive. Remember this is not a professional sport, it is a recreational sport that fair play and good sportsmanship should be the first priority.

I would rather lose 10 close games and fun than win 1 blowout game and be miserable.
Jan. 25, 2008
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
I have a simple question. Could someone name the teams that are dramatically affected by the new home run rules?
Jan. 25, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2663 posts
Kevin, I haven't kept up with the younger division in the last few years so maybe you can tell me, has their governing bodies lowered the Major division's home run limits and over that number make it an out? I remember at the Smoky they had unlimited hrs.
Bob50, I would say the new rules affect any team that surpassed the max number of hrs in games last season. Our team, Hollis Appraisals, for one. The thing that will come into play now is how well the hitter can adjust. If you have only one swing your team will suffer.
Jan. 25, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Hi Bruce I might be wrong on this but I'm pretty sure UTRIP limits all of their divisions to HR's and over the limit is an out. One solution might be to schedule Major plus on baseball diamonds, where I live we have a baseball diamond that gets used in rotation 344' to left and 388' to leftcenter we love playing on that field.
Jan. 25, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2663 posts
Ok, you're right, USSSA Major limits hrs to 8. ISA Major doesn't limit hrs.
Jan. 25, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Kevin,
In your last post you mentioned the issues that the younger divisions have been facing for some time. I'm not sure if you were always referring to them or if you were also discussing the problems in senior softball.
If you were alluding to SS, I have some questions...
1) Is, in fact, SS suffering? There seems to be more major plus teams than ever... my only frame of reference.
2) If major plus teams were forced to re-tool, which teams would be impacted? It has been my experience that the balance of power has changed over the past 3-4 years on its own (55 major plus). I cannot speak for any other age group... Old A's to Turn Two to CT Sportsplex to ?? in '08.
I know that you work pretty hard to build and develop your business . Would you be willing to have an outside source mandate that you tear it apart? I am a business owner as well and I would take strong exception to anyone forcing me to undermine what I have worked 33 years to create. Like you, I had to start from ground zero and we had to endure all of the start up dynamics that you described (in addition to economic cycles).
If SS truly is suffering, we need to find a more creative way to assure that it persists. We live in a capitalistic society and usually reject any ideas that even hint of socialism.
(SS = all of senior softball as a whole, not just SSUSA).
BW
Jan. 25, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
In usssa major the home runs have been limited to 16 for the majors, but when a major team plays an A Or B team they cut the home runs in half. They never used to be a limit but with only 2 teams they had to make adjustments so other teams could compete. (again not win) There is no major in ASA, NSA or ISA anymore although every year they say they will run a tourney. None have made to date and ASA will only have class A.

Bob,
I think that the comparison to a business and recreation softball is not a valid one, one is a profession one is a recreational sport.

As far as senior softball vs young guys softball, seniors get all of the props here. I enjoy watching and working senior softball over the younger guys 100 to 1. Senior softball is more about friendships, sportmanship, and game and for that everyone of you ought to be commended. The game is so screwed up at the lower levels it is disgusting. The attitudes of the senior player is far above the younger players of today Why do you think I can't wait to play. I get out of the crap I play now and get to have fun again.

As far as senior softball needing to be fixed, (my opinion only) I don't see many problems with the game at all. However I do think that the problems that do exsist are more in the 2 upper classes. I also think that if the rules are changed to help one those 2 divisions the other is going to suffer severly. I really don't have the answers but I can through some things out there and maybe some combination of it will help the 2 that need it most.
It really isn't that bad I just don't want it to get worse so by the time I can play I'm back in the crap I just left.
Jan. 25, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
In usssa major the home runs have been limited to 16 for the majors, but when a major team plays an A Or B team they cut the home runs in half. They never used to be a limit but with only 2 teams they had to make adjustments so other teams could compete. (again not win) There is no major in ASA, NSA or ISA anymore although every year they say they will run a tourney. None have made to date and ASA will only have class A.

Bob,
I think that the comparison to a business and recreation softball is not a valid one, one is a profession one is a recreational sport.

As far as senior softball vs young guys softball, seniors get all of the props here. I enjoy watching and working senior softball over the younger guys 100 to 1. Senior softball is more about friendships, sportmanship, and game and for that everyone of you ought to be commended. The game is so screwed up at the lower levels it is disgusting. The attitudes of the senior player is far above the younger players of today Why do you think I can't wait to play. I get out of the crap I play now and get to have fun again.

As far as senior softball needing to be fixed, (my opinion only) I don't see many problems with the game at all. However I do think that the problems that do exsist are more in the 2 upper classes. I also think that if the rules are changed to help one those 2 divisions the other is going to suffer severly. I really don't have the answers but I can through some things out there and maybe some combination of it will help the 2 that need it most.
It really isn't that bad I just don't want it to get worse so by the time I can play I'm back in the crap I just left.
Jan. 25, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin,
All the more reason to make sure Senior ball survives and thrives
and it will never make it without it's head, the major plus.
You're a business man and I would be worried to looking at the problems
and lack of participation in the ranks below but smarter measures could be employed
and ones that don't take anything away from the highest performing leagues.
Let's say you used a certain low caliber ball in AAA.
Something silly like a 40 core Grey Dot.
That would relegate any team that could win that tournament to be as good as any other team in the country, even Hollis, using that crappy ball.
Then the lower level would still be a legitimate "best" in the country and could would draw the best singles, doubles hitters in the country.
None of the big guys would want to go down because they wouldn't provide much advantage at all.
Then, they could compete in the higher ranks with better balls.

As I said before, this message board has tremendous capabilities to serve
all of senior ball which could/would only benefit SSUSA if/when done.

Fran, Dave, Terry.
If you need some ideas on what and how to get the most out of and for
Senior Softball the "Woods" are full of them...
you know where we are and we'd all help any way we could.
If you need some ideas on how to transform this site into something much
more dynamic that would serve both you and the Senior softball community better
don't be afraid to ask us.
Jan. 25, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
The senior game is both better and worse than it was a few years ago. It just depends on which assn we talk about as to whether it's more favorable or not... w/o naming them.
IMHO, the biggest problem facing most of the current assns is that they do not adapt to changing trends. The ones that do have their ear to the ground are, of course, the ones that getting the greater market share.
Kevin, it isn't a whole lot different than your business... you have the choice between trying to sell to us what you think we OUGHT TO HAVE rather than what we want. It's clear which choice you make. I'm speaking about the health of an assn overall, I'm not really speaking to the new rules... i.e. the health of senior softball.
However, if what we want isn't at all profitable for you, a business decision must be made on your part. I'll just bet that there are bats out there that we'd like that you have chosen to not sell... probably the exception, not the rule.
As players we like what we like... we never give much thought to what is or isn't profitable for the vendor (assn). We want longer games, more HRs, less restrictions on runs scored (and geography), etc. ,etc. We are the first to bitch when an entry fee goes up or that the vendor would like us to utilize their hotels. We don't want to chase the balls but many of us don't want to buy them either. We can't have it both ways all of the time.
So, cutting to the chase, we (teams) need to recognize that the vendor is in this for a profit. But the vendors need to understand that their decreasing market share is the result of their living/thinking in the past... that is, the ones that have felt market share reductions.
The new SSUSA rules? They are a good business decision gone bad, IMHO. Time is a precious commodity though... and this is the driving force behind the changes.
Kevin, I'm sorry that you didn't like my business analogy. I was merely trying to piggy back on the point that you had made earlier today... 'like in everything we do, we have to build from the bottom... houses, businesses, automobiles, trees, etc.'
:-)
BW
Jan. 25, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Woody for president.
You're the man and an apt and eloquent speaker in our behalf.
Thanks so much.
All the discussion is good and stuff to get the juices going.
Thanks, Kevin, Patty, Georgee and Bruce (hi Bruce) et al.
We all need to work together and do what we can for senior softball,
don't we, Terry?
Jan. 25, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Bob,
Some very good points of intrest. I sell what I believe is the best products for the players that be. I can swing one bat better than another but that does not mean you can do the same. I still don't agree with your analogy of business and softball but the great thing about it is this is your opinion and I respect that. I always ask people that I don't know when they ask me my opinion of something. " what color car you drive, Then I say I hate that color. My point is that my opinion is only my opinion and don't take what I say as gospel. I can only direct them of what I know and what I like. Joe likes the rip-it bat, I don't but that does not make Joe any less of a great person in my eyes. (I still love you Joe.)
But again here's one that I don't agree with that Joe thinks. You said about letting the lower division .40 cor balls. I would say let the upper division use them and let them swing away. If you can hit that ball in the heat you should hit every one that you can. Since the homeruns would be cut back some the major teams moving up would have less bombs to deal with and could possibly stay in the game. Now I know what this would do to that division, complete mayhem every time someone hit a ball that they believe should have gone out, the complaining about the ball would begin.

So there are so many options and combinations of options that it may never be perfect. Guy's spend a weekend at a young guy's tournament and you will come home with a whole new outlook of what makes senior softball so special.

Many pitchers have had very serious injuries to the face and head. In NM and AZ gun fights in the parking lot after a close game. (this has happened many times this year) Last year in the complex in Naples Fl, yes the same one used last year by the 60 major plus, major riot and guns drawn. Now the tournaments hosted there by the young have to pay for armed police in the park as long as players are in the park.

You really don't have it that bad and I can't wait until this is all I have to complain about.
Jan. 25, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Thanks, Joe... I could use a good campaign slogan though. How about 'everyone needs to wake up with a Woody'? I don't know, perhaps it needs some fine tuning... the slogan, that is.
One of the salient points of this board is that all of us, in a reasonable manner, can offer our insights to each other as well as to the vendors. When we look back over the past 2-3 years, we will see that many positive changes have come from the dialogue contained herein.
A sampling of them are... dropping from 4 to 3 days in the nationals events (SSWC & SSWS, SPA had done so a few years earlier)... allowing the 1.2 bats again... dropping the max run/inning in major + (now it's going back but at least to 7, not 5)... We really can forge change.
We need to recognize that the vendors have made financial sacrifices with some of these changes. We also need to remember that our style of delivery is important as well. Who knows? Perhaps we can find a comfortable compromise on the new HR rules.
Joe, I feel that the DBO (ball hitting the pitcher) is a certain deterent... it will be for me. I know very few guys that want to donate an at bat. But, in the heat of it, maybe some guys are ok with an out if they can 'make their point'. This is at least a beginning step... but it ought to be in place on all levels, not just major +.
While you were kind in your initial (and underserved) nomination of me, I know that you'll be on the opposite side of a discussion before long. But I wouldn't want to agree with anyone on every matter... if I were, one of us would be unnecessary.
:-)
BW
Jan. 25, 2008
PattyMac
96 posts
Guys why are we being discriminated against? Most of us work harder than most to be good at the sport we love.

Why not ask the managers or sponsors of the major plus teams what they think. There aren't that many teams in this division so why couldn't that be done?

Why change the game?

Make the major plus games last an hour and a half.

Make major plus teams furnish their own balls and chase them.. SPA does this and it works for everyone.

HIt all you want or something and a single.

I would rather play 4 and single than 10 and an out.

I just can't figure out why these things have been done without some input.

I guess because they can.


Frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jan. 25, 2008
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
PATTY MAC / KEVIN / MAN-on-FIRE: The real QUESTION!!! Why did Bill Ruth, make these NEW RULES??? What is Bill's, beef w/ Major Plus players??

Please, stop blaming the hard work' Terry, Fran, Dave, etc.

The STONEMAN.....
Jan. 25, 2008
PattyMac
96 posts
Stoneman,

I don't know who to blame. I am not political, i just show up and play.

I thought the object of softball was to score as many runs as you can and keep the other team from scoring.

What is wrong with high scoring games?

All players want to score. That is why we play.

Why penalize teams from scoring alot and having some fun.

If a 55 or 60 year old man can hit a softball 320 feet then good for him. Don't penalize someone for being good.
Jan. 25, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Pattymac.
I think several of your ideas would work well for the game. bring all of this to the people that make the decisions and see the rules can be fair for all.
Jan. 25, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Patty you monster,
you're right on the money.
Someone, Bill Ruth and Terry Henessey don't seem to know
or care about what's important to us and it's obvious and pathetic
given all we've given and spent and played all these years.
Fran and Dave and Stephanie and Chris are wonderful but seem
somehow stifled to truly implement an operational organization
that is mutually relevant and rewarding for both SSUSA and the Senior softball community.
Stoneman is right.
The buck gets passed up the stairs just like in politics.
Policies fail, you fire the boss.

I know Bill's got more money than Bill Gates
and Terry has well defined libertarian ideals coming from a career
in journalism but it's really quite simple, like Patty says.
You just have to want to and care and trust your people to get in touch
with our people to get it done.
Jan. 25, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
I want to second what trumpball added, recently I petitioned to get on the national advisory board and it was accepted. My petition was based on growing the 40's, representing Las Vegas and working with folks not familiar with Senior ball. Maybe I misread my audience on this one but my proposals with the 40's which was presented away from the main meeting was met with interest. My guess is any ideas that grow the major plus division, and in my opinion would have to include a HR's and runs per inning redo, and allow for future growth will get attention. Some creativity is probably in order, with some hard work. To my friend down south I appreciated your insight.
Jan. 25, 2008
DD
Men's 60
75 posts
Patty Mac-

You want M+ games to last 90 minutes? Wouldn't that extend games an inordinate length of time? Imagine a 6th inning starting at the 86th minute...finish the inning AND THEN you get the open? That game might last 3 hours.

How can you justify that in a tournament with, for example, 25 other teams expecting to use the same fields and limited to 60 minute games?

You should take note of the fact that AA, AAA, and Major teams comprise 94% of the players in senior softball. That means 94 cents of every dollar paid comes from these lower divisions. That means without us, you don't have a place to play. Without us you'd be lining up trash cans on a vacant lot somewhere and playing "Home Run Derby" for a case of beer.

I think it's time many of the M+ players awoke to the fact that your wishes do not in any significant way reflect what is best for senior softball. You appear to have hijacked this message board to a great extent, but your numbers represent a mere 4-6% of the player pool---many of you jump from team to team upsetting the parity tournament organizers are trying to assure others who pay to come and compete; the dizzying barrage of longballs in your division makes a travesty of an otherwise great game; your declining (or completely absent) skills in defense, baserunning, and throwing make a mockery of the oft-stated (and self-proclaimed) mantra that you are the "best-of-the-best" in senior softball.

It's time you all realized only a fraction of the thousands of seniors still playing want anything to do with a game that features 40-50 balls or more hit out of the park. That is a dreadfully silly waste of everyone's time and is undoubtedly why one M+ sponsor told me last year he was giving it up because he thought Major Plus was ---and I quote---"...a DYING division."

Get real...start playing the full game again...work on your skills...RUN THE BALL OUT for crying out loud. Many of you he-men can't even get to first base without calling for a "courtesy runner."

It's the only future you have once the Ultra 2s and other lethal bats are outlawed...and if you don't think that is coming you haven't been paying attention. Note the most recent ISSA Newsletter that summarizes the Summit Meeting last weekend in Phoenix. It was emailed to managers just last Wednesday.

It's great you can hit a lot of homeruns...but too much of a good thing tends to ruin it...like alcohol or recreational drugs...the game is so much more than the dinger, or have you forgotten all that.

I suggest you approach any and all discussions about what is best for senior softball from the point of view that what improves the experience for the greatest number. is the way to go..not just what is best for your division. After all, why would any organization try to satisfy its smallest number of paying customers (its "light" users) at the expense of its heavy users? Talk about the tail wagging the dog...

Hoochie-mama, that oughtta get the fires raging!
Jan. 25, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
If I may add one other thought business is frought with well intentioned decisions that are not well received, The Coke debaucle and in our sport Miken's U11 advanced. I would suggest again a well designed plan that points out the benfefits to whoever it is presented. At that point their response to this plan will tell you what you would need to know so you can plan your season out.
Jan. 25, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2663 posts
DD, I can tell from your post that you don't have a clue about Major Plus players or teams.
We run the ball out and most don't need to use the U2.
Jan. 25, 2008
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
Bruce I agree that this will drive alot of Major+ players back to Major ball. there will be less and less Major + teams and only 3 division of softball like players have talked abot for several years now. THAN what will they do?
Don Ward
Kittrell Softball
Jan. 25, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What we have said all along Dennis
is that the game differs greatly from AAA and Major to Major plus
and if you have ever played up you would know.
The expectations, speed, capabilities all increase dramatically.
I play on a 60 and over team with 2 guys who played professional baseball.

We're not telling you what rules you should have and you should not be telling us
what rules we should have.

Before composite bats we played a team out of Vegas in an LVSSA there.
There were 5 run innings and their guys couldn't run a base hit out
if you put a canoli (Italian pastry)
on every base.
It was a six inning game we lost 30 to 27 because we both got 5 runs every inning
but in the last we only got 2 and got beat.
I remember thinking how lucky they were that one of those fat tubs
didn't have a heart attack before the game was over and those slobs
beat us.
You know what, they deserved the win.

We're concerned about the speed at which the best hitters in the nation
using the hottest bats, hit a ball through the infield.
I don't know if you play the infield but the speed of a Miken hit ball
is significantly faster than normal and very difficult to glove or get out of the way of
and that's at the center of many of the arguments and we have
and how best to deal with the extra speed and hazards it causes.
Jan. 25, 2008
DD
Men's 60
75 posts
Thanks, Joe, for your thoughtful response. On the issue of danger to the fielders and the pitcher, much has been said. I do find it interesting to note that sentiment on this message board among M+ players seems to be running decidedly against the new rule that intends to protect the pitcher. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
As others have pointed out, the "intent" to cause injury to another player is difficult to ascertain, but I can tell you I have played with M+ players (and those from other divisions) who have not been shy in the dugout (quietly) about their intent to do harm to a pitcher...and then backed it up with a rocket that hit a shin, or a knee, or a chest.
I've even read threats of physical harm to others on this very website, although we don't take seriously the rantings of the deranged, do we?

My purpose is not to criticize your division...I intend to play there when I grow up, but a 65-major Plus team will probably be more to my liking. I'm still having too much fun trying to beat 50 year olds in AAA/Major. Those guys can play. It's the best softball I've seen in the 4 years I've been around senior ball---dead serious.

I do feel, though, that many of your numbers are a bit out of touch with the economic reality of senior softball. How could an organization survive with the numbers of M+ players. You guys are a great bunch of veteran players, but by yourselves you would not have one tournament to play in...unless you organized a pick-up gathering in your own region.

Please consider that the preponderance of Homeruns, while offering a certain aphrodisiac to some, is a grave threat to your entire division. There just are not enough players who a) hit that many; and b) find anything enjoyable about standing around watching the ball sail out of the park.

Most players at all levels still want to run, throw, play defense, hit behind the runner, turn doubleplays, pitch as effectively as a slow-pitcher can, and generally excel at all aspects of this fabulous game.

While many M+ games feature a wonderful blend of all that, far too many are one-dimensional slugfests that leave everyone involved somewhat empty.

You guys need a way to attract more players to your division...I'm betting if you offer a more complete experience you'll have some takers instaed of playing the same old teams and the same old players who've switched to the newest "paid" team.

Apprecite the dialogue and look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Jan. 26, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Good morning,
How about something along these lines.
Major plus, every team gets a dozen softball when checking in.Then you buy however many you think you need for your team. You hit and get your own ball, if a ball is not supplied in a set amount of time a strike will be called on the next batter and will continue until a ball is supplied.(with a time limit you have to keep the game moving)
7 runs per inning, but unlimited home runs(who cares how you score them)
No on has to run or advance on a home run. (again keep the game moving)
one minute between last out of a half inning and first pitch(again keep the game moving.
90 minute games but the last inning is declaired 80 minutes. If the visiting team is comming up at 80 minutes that will be the last innig. If the home team is up you will play one more.
In the last inning it will be unlimited runs but you will have a 4 home run limit with excess home runs being a dead ball out. Now base hitting defense and speed will play a huge part of winnig it when it counts. You will want to put men on to score the big numbers, and one dementional players will be exposed quickly.

With rules like this the game will move very fast for the whole game except for the last inning, you should be able to get 7 inning games in a reasonable amount of time.
Jan. 26, 2008
PattyMac
96 posts
Kevin,

That sounds like what i was talking about. Let the umpire control the game at the 80 minute limit. Again what is the reason for the changes?

DD,

Whoever you are? I don't know you and you don't know me. I am just another senior, 55 year old player, who really enjoys playing the game. I don't hunt or fish or play golf, l play softball. I can't help it if i can still hit and love the play at the highest level. Again there needs to be two divisions in senior softball - recreational ( for guys like you ) and competitive ( for guys who want to compete ).

There is plenty of defense in the major plus division and it is not just homeruns. I doubt very seriously that if your team was playing the finals on one field and the major plus was playing the finals on the other field that you would draw a bigger crowd at your field. Be for real man!

I am for all senior softball players. If you love the game, keep playing. Don't try to cut us up just because you were not given the talents that other players have.

Let us have our fun too. We are all just one injury away from never getting to play again.

Be a man like Einstein. I was there when he got hit in the arm. He did not cry about it, he knew that it is part of the game. Our pitcher, gary deaton, never gets mad if someone hits up the middle, it is part of the game. Wonder if your pitcher crys if someone hits one up the middle?

Be glad to meet you face to face.
Jan. 26, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
The rule changes need to be in place to keep the game and the players on even keel. If you were allowed to hit unlimited home runs without a run limit some games would not go 3 innings in 90 mintues. Chasing the ball has always been an issue, more so in senior softball. In the young guy 's tournies it has gone to supply and hit your own ball. If you don't want to chase them thats fine just throw another ball in.

As far as keeping the game moving thats a no brainer, 7 innings 3 minutes per inning to start each half thats 42 minutes x 6 games on that fields per day and yes we are wasting alot of time, time is money. Putting a cap on home runs in the 7 would make teams play with there heads and offer a smart team the advantage. Kinda like a good chess game.

So you get a combination of unlimited home runs but resonable game times.
Jan. 26, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Home run rule complaints have been going on for as long as I have been on this board, (probably longer) I know, because I brought it up back then.
While I think the rule punishes the occasional good hit for the AA teams, the OUT, in fact punishes(player\team). While I understand the rationale for it, I strongly feel that it should be a WALK as opposed to a SINGLE. Thus preventing a score, unless forced in. The original reason, I believe for the outs.
Some teams seem to be very comfortable in the division they play, and do not want to move.
Seems odd to me.
Jan. 26, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
The rule changes need to be in place to keep the game and the players on even keel. If you were allowed to hit unlimited home runs without a run limit some games would not go 3 innings in 90 mintues. Chasing the ball has always been an issue, more so in senior softball. In the young guy 's tournies it has gone to supply and hit your own ball. If you don't want to chase them thats fine just throw another ball in.

As far as keeping the game moving thats a no brainer, 7 innings 3 minutes per inning to start each half thats 42 minutes x 6 games on that fields per day and yes we are wasting alot of time, time is money. Putting a cap on home runs in the 7 would make teams play with there heads and offer a smart team the advantage. Kinda like a good chess game.

So you get a combination of unlimited home runs but resonable game times.
Jan. 26, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Unlimited HR's has a time consequence, as well as other cost. But with 7 runs and a 1 hr 20 min to 1 hr 30 min time limit, you should be able to get the game in.
It's that open inning that is the joker in the card deck. You don't know when it will be played.(Time it will take)
Jan. 26, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Ten years ago you didn't need the rules that are in place today. even with double wall bat home runs were still a home run. With the bats and balls of today a home run is just to easy to hit. So the game has to make adjustments to make it a fair competition. Ten years ago probably half of the people that can hit a home run could not do it before so the technology has cheapend the game, yet no one will put the bats down in favor of a different bat.(ie ASA or USSSA) That would really make the game whole again. The top major+ players would still hit them and the others would be set up guys like it was in the past.
Jan. 26, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2663 posts
Kevin, I agree with you intentions but, if we didn't allow the U2, Launch, Sr Combat and similar bats then some, if not most players would resort to doctored bats.
I also play on a USSSA class D team and I would guess that most of the better teams that play Utrip around here are using shaved bats. I don't want to see the same thing happen to senior softball.
Some will say that suspensions for using an altered bat will be a deterant, I don't think so. I've looked at these bats and can't tell a doctored one from a legit one.
Jan. 26, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Bruce, The same applies to my area on Dr bats. But here is the younger guys.
Jan. 26, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
This may be true but I can't believe that grown men have to cheat, also soon the dr'ing thing may be comming to an end. There are several ways to stop it and some associations are listening and possibly going to act on this.
Jan. 26, 2008
Jimmy # 7
28 posts
Good afternoon to everybody!! I've been reading all the comment's about the NEW MAJOR CHANGE'S. Now is time to all step up and let's take care of EACH OTHER and OURSELVE'S!!! I suggest we let the MAJOR and + player's call the AA and AAA game's. And the AA and AAA player's call the MAJOR and + game's. The tournament fee SHOULD BE $300, with a SAVING'S of $150+ to EACH TEAM. EACH TEAM CAN PLAY TWO TOURNAMENT'S AND SAVE THE AMOUNT TO ENTER THE NEXT TOURNAMENT. RESULT MORE TEAM'S AT MORE TOURNAMENT'S AND MORE COMPETITION. Also I suggest we have a player pool at each tournament. Say five AA and five AAA player's, which would be allowed to even a division of play to a even number. And the same for Major and Major + player's also. BUTT, the pool player's must be registered one month in advance of the tournament date. Who know's we might have as many as two to three team's formed in the pool. Also the player's entered for the pool BY DATE REGISTERED WILL BE ON THAT TEAM. THIS WAY YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE PLAYER'S SEEING WHO IS ON THE POOL LIST. Just a thought player's for SAVING and WHO KNOW'S MORE ABOUT OUR SENIOR RULE's THAN SENIOR'S. AND WHO DO WE ENJOY MOST AND LIKE TO VISIT WITH BUT SENIOR'S. SEE YA'LL SOON-Jimmy#7
Jan. 26, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
trumpball,
Contact Huntsman Gamers, Ask how many were removed from games...
Yes, that doesn't mean they were actually Dr'ed but I'd bet they were.
At least three.
Jan. 26, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Jimmy #7
Having a pool to build a team is a good idea imo.
I suggested it to Huntsman the last two years but they are so overwhelmed with teams there is no lacking division usually... not always.
Last year they had enough players listed on the team finder page to put 3 teams together all positions filled, some would have an older guy on it playing down but it was a complete team none the less.
sign me up
Jan. 27, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Hey guys.
Wow, all it took was a few rule changes by SSUSA to wake this board up. Great discussion and ideas presented that provoke thought and debate with only a few negative statements.
After reading, all of the comments on rule changes and the state of Senior Softball a few things are clear to me.
We all love the game.
We all seem to want to have fun playing the game.
We all enjoy fair and equal competition with rules that allow us to do so.
We all have our pet peeves or things that we would like to improve in the game.
There are many articulate people who have offered some great ideas on the state of the game and suggestions for improvement.
The Associations are for profit businesses that need to and will continue to provide the best possible product for the vast majority of their customers.
Some of us are just grumpy old men with no hope of ever changing. : )
That said, I wanted to clarify some statements I made about rules.
I wasn't really trying to promote unlimited HR's in Major Plus, but rather wanted to eliminate the DBO rule and make them singles or even walks as Taits suggested after the limit.
I am ALL FOR protection of the pitcher. I personally witnessed a horrific event which I believe contributed to the original Ulta ban. I was catching in a kid's D Tourney game at Twin Creeks when our good fielding pitcher was struck in the face and lost his eye from a batted Ultra II line drive. The sound, speed and resulting injury was something I never want to see again.
I think though that the DBO rule as it is today may take away the advantage of having an excellent fielding pitcher of which I have had the privilidge to play with in my softball life. I would rather see bat or ball restrictions or something along the lines of what Joe suggested to remedy this issue.
I like to hit up the middle when the pitch is in a zone that calls for it. I never want to hit at or near the pitcher though, because if it's Joe or my buddy Jeff, they will snap me off and turn a double play. The only time I ever hit a pitcher was when going for a home run and missing slightly. While I think all slow pitch softball players should have bat control, be able to hit behind runners or opposite field when called for, I still always want to swing hard. Some times you miss it. When HR's are gone, sometimes you miss or lift the hard line drive single and it goes out. Damn, nothing sucks more that hitting a ball solid and being out for it. Make it a walk at least please.
Major Plus versus Major versus AAA versus AA. I play Major Plus, but I have never felt like an elite player. I see some guys like Denny Jones who have been softball legends their whole lives and I consider them elite players and I'm excited to be on the same field as them. But in Nor Cal, the local tourneys kind of mix all divisions at times to get enough teams. There are many AAA players that are as good or better than guys in Major Plus today. Why does one player of equal ability play AAA and one Major Plus. Who knows, who cares? Although a few suggested it, I don't believe anyone in Senior Softball is playing for financial gain. We are all playing for fun and the thrill of competition. If your buddies play AAA, then you should be able to also. It's only when a whole team is sandbagging that causes inequity in my opinion. I personally think AAA is probably the most healthy of all divisions today. I base that on the high number of teams in AAA at the SSUSA Phoenix Championships in 2007. I would prefer to play in a 26 team tourney any day rather than a 4 or 5 team divsion. Problem is I can't now because I'm branded Major Plus. Every AAA team I watch has solid players with power. What happens when they hit an over the limit HR? They walk to first base and usually snicker becasue they know how lucky thet are to get a single for that mistake. Here is my suggestions to make all divisions healthier. Just my opinions.
1 - Eliminate all of the ODD number age brackets. That means no more 45,55,65 or 75. New age groups would be 40 - 50, 50 - 60, 60 - 70, 70 - 80 and above 80. Maybe allow 58 year olds to play in 60, 68 to play in 70 to allow for differneces in abilty or aging. Not everyone is Jack LaLanne.
2 - Eliminate one whole division and combine all into 3. Or if we must have 4, make one recreational and 3 competitive.
I think there is a market for recreational and possible coed for seniors. Granpa 's and Grannies in spandex reality TV, yes.
3 - Allow players without teams to play down. 1 or 2 major or Major plus guys should not put an AAA team over the top.
4 - Allow at least 2 geographic exceptions in all divisions. That will allow all land locked players with no teams to compete if they want to. Plus you rich guys can fly in your stud cousin Billy to play once in a while. ha-ha.
5 - No surprise last minute rule changes, move ups or downs or unfair equalizer rules. What I mean is don't move a team up a division after they have planned to attend an event. Don't add another age group to a Championship division with equalizer advantage at the last minute.
OK, this is a pet peeve of mine after we beat all the 50 Major Plus teams, but got schooled by Bruce , Terrell, Gary and all the legends from the Florida / Georgia stud 55 team at the TOC last year. These guys probably would have beat us with 10 guys, but 11 made it seem unfair, so we'll never really know. Eliminating the 55 division would remedy that.
6 - Specific home run rules for each division - whatever it is, no DBO penalties for over the limit. Make it a single or walk.
7 - Speed up the game. Umpire controlled by timing one minute between innings. Ball called if defence is not ready, strike called if offense is not ready. Start with 1-1 count and one free foul. It's a hitter's game. Swing at that first strike.
OK, long winded I know and I apolgize for that. Whew.
Jan. 27, 2008
WOW
197 posts
Just a thought............. Why don't you M+ players start your own org. You seem to all agree that you're unhappy with the way the game is going for the rest of the schmucks that don't bring anything to the game. Oh, I forgat. The WHOLE senior program would fall apart if the "head" wasn't there. Give me a FRIGGING break..................
Jan. 27, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2663 posts
Well George, you need to consider yourself one of those articulate people here, along with Einstein and Kevin.
Your last post is very will thought out, makes sense to me!
Jan. 27, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
WOW.
I don't see how your reply could have come from my latest post. I thought I was pretty clear that the majority and health of the organization resides outside Major Plus levels of the game.
If I wasn't clear, no one should be stuck in a bad position by the rules. Major Plus is a minority and I agree probably just a pain in the ass for most not involved in it. I would like to play AAA this year. Is that OK with you? If an AAA player wants to move up, he should be allowed to also, don't you think? From my earliest baseball memories, I can remember always wanting to play against the best, but not always being good enough to do so. That was motivation for me. But, I still have fun a company picnic softball games and always feel like a kid when I play, whether its coed, Major Plus or E league.
I consider it an honor to play softball, compete, have fun and comradery in the sport at my age in ANY division.
If somehow, I came off as a snob, please forgive me. I would be happy playing with no changes from last year, or the year before or the year before that rules. These latest rules are some big changes worthy of discussion in my opinion.
What do you think of them?
Jan. 27, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Thanks Bruce.
I wish Major Plus didn't have the bad label that it seems to have. I know that you are not responsible for the bad rep and I hope that I haven't contributed to it by starting this post. Maybe we need to just shut up and play huh?
Like my golf buddies tell me all the time, shut up, will ya,
I'm trying to hit?
Jan. 27, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
George,
If the other team had 11 players, you know why, equalizer. I hope it wasn't a 70's team like in Nor-cal, but I'd think it was. That said, a 50's against a 70's is a big difference.
One reason I'd be against changing ages to what you suggest.
But your at the top of the heap here,(nor-cal) enjoy it.
Jan. 27, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Taits,
i was refering to the first Annual TOC last year in the 50 Major Plus division. Last minute they allowed All State Miken 55 Major plus to play in the Championship. These are some of the old Florida Crush and current Hollis Appraisal guys who are very good p[ayers. Giving them an 11th player was an unfair advantage in our (MAC II) opinion. There should be NO equalizer or mixing of divisions in Championship events is what I'm say.ing A 50 tean should never play a 70 team. If we have 10 year age bracketts the tourneys should grow to have more teams in each brackett. That's what I was hoping for.
Yes, Nor Cal softball is great isn't it? NCSSA and Vintage Softball League in Santa Clara are a lot of fun.
I'm off to a team fundraiser now because I am unfortunatley part of one of the only non sponsored Major Plus teams around.
Later.
Jan. 27, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
George,
I played 60's against a 55 team there was also the SF Seals there against the 55 team. 15 years...Do not remember if a 65 team was in that but the others were, for sure.
Perhaps the ratings had something to do with it.
Not SUPPOSED to happed again...we'll see. 55's won T.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners