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Discussion: 2008 National Senior Softball Summit

Posted Discussion
Jan. 28, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
2008 National Senior Softball Summit
Does anyone have, or at least what they can share, what was discussed and worked out between the different associations or concerning any specific one?
Or when it will be posted?
Jan. 28, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Update; should have some answers (maybe all) by this weekend or so.
Jan. 30, 2008
DD
Men's 60
75 posts
Mr. Tait,

ISSA sent an email memorandum on Jan 23 that contained a brief summary of the Jan 19-20 Summit in Phoenix. Quoting from it...though not in its entirety...

"...The major topic of discussion this year was the National Rating System. The team rating...system...currently in place is only as good as the control on team rosters to insure they are in sync with one another...Simply put, if the tournament roster does not match the one the team had when rated, their National Rating is no longer valid unless the sanctioning body has appropriately addressed all player additions..."

"...there was a feeing that some member organizations fail to provide...assurance that teams do not have a stacked roster...[consequently] some changes will be forthcoming for 2008 in the rating reporting system..."

"...Team ratings also become difficult to manage...when...organizations utilize different rules or policies...Two examples are the use of high performance bats and the out-of-region player exception. One of the most diffcult skill levels to administer is the Major Plus..."

"...If parity is the root basis for the National Rating System...these issues cannot be ignored..."

" One of the objectives of the Senior Summit in the future will be to promote safety...Accordingly, we hope this will manifest itself into some reasonable concern for player safety when high performance bats are allowed..."

"IT IS DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND HOW THE USE OF EQUIPMENT THAT UNQUESTIONABLY PLACES PLAYERS AT A HIGHER RISK OF SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH CAN BE ALLOWED FOR THE SENIOR DIVISION." (emphasis added.)

"...If we do not address this safety issue, field owners will or run the risk of gross negligence."

ISSA is one of several (nine, I believe?) member organizations that offer senior softball events. It sets its own rules and policies, as do most if not all the other members.

The Senior Summit that recently convened in Phoenix is NOT a rule-making body; rather it is a forum for delegates from different organizations to share information and suggestions and learn from one another.

As you can see from the ISSA memo, two of the main issues on the table for 2008 are National Ratings and safety.

Hope this helps...it will be interesting to see how the other organizations summarize the Summit...if they do at all.
Jan. 30, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
DD;
No need for the Mr. But thanks.
I didn't want to be specific on when where how, the info will be here burt with this not i'll spit it out. The SSUSA news paper was sent out this week. so most should have by this week or next depending on delivery time. But they were delivered to mailer.
Hopefully SSUSA will have the complete story.
Thank you for your post.
Jan. 30, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
DD,
Good job paraphrasing.
Would seem as though they tend to agree to disagree.

As for the bat issue, ie safety, 95+% of those seriously injured were pitchers, along with one umpire and two infielders, I could find out about.
I think a check on history would find like wise statistics on metal bats using the better balls.

As for ratings, yes the ole bait and switch in in softball now.
How about one roster, take it or leave it. Yea, like that's gonna go over well.
Jan. 30, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
So, do you think that the Summit would recommend we all use ASA bats like ISSA?
I would think that the National Rating system does need some work.
As for Major Plus teams being difficult to administer, most Major Plus teams that I know of aren't trying to move to Major. We/They are happy at Major Plus.
Jan. 30, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Bruce, it that was for me, Personally, in as much as there are really not that many teams, and only becauyse of that, that Plus guys\teams should be be able to draw from one side of a given half the US area, and or Canada. I do not know where the boundaries are now, (I'm not there won't be).
But it is my understanding the number of teams are increasing, so....
As for bats, I love the new ones, but have the others as well. What ever is legal for that tournament, works for me, but it would be better if we had good balls as well.
You have a great team I'd be the last one to want to break up what you have, unless it was for the better for ALL the Plus teams. But that would have to apply for them as well given circumstances that were mentioned on some, post somewhere.
Plus teams (as do others) complain (and very rightly so) that they didn't have but one or two teams to play against at some tournament. NOT GOOD, fair or anything other than a credit in the asssn's acct. They should of been told (sometimes hard to do) this was going to happen and given the option to pull out... maybe they would,
maybe not ...
I also do not think that a plus or major player should not be allowed to play on a AAA team... So I understand anyway.
Or at least limet the number of them to say 2 or 3. give them somewhere to go if nothing else is out there for them.
.02, & probably more than you wanted.
Jan. 30, 2008
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
Ok here we go again with this topic but if the Senior Summitt is or was dominated by ASA type thoughts then boo on you! How can anyone think that the bats are causing so many serious safety issues in senior softball???

If you play or umpire this game on a regular basis then you would know that bad hops, poor field conditions, sliding, running into other players and other accidents are all much more common causes of injuries in senior softball then what someone who is hiding behind another agenda is presenting as a BAT danger!!!

The real bat danger is the altered bats that are being allowed in ASA, USSSA, NSA, ISSA, ISA, SSWS, etc... If you really think hot bats are a problem then why aren't you taking altered bats out of the game at all levels???

Mike Walker
Hollis Appraisals
Jan. 30, 2008
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
I believe USSSA has monitored what we are saying on this board and is re-thinking their rules. If safety is the issue than unlimited homeruns is the answer. Otherwise, the ball will go up the middle as it is the cheapest hit in softball.

If you love your pitcher than lobby for unlimited homeruns in the major plus division. I believe a majority also prefer unlimited runs per inning.

This and any other issue could simply be handled by sending a survey asking various questions to the managers of the major plus teams. These are the guys with the best feel for the game. Then publish their opinions and lets see where that takes us!
Jan. 31, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Of all the discussions about bats and ball and safety the statement "If safety is the issue than unlimited homeruns is the answer. Otherwise, the ball will go up the middle as it is the cheapest hit in softball." is one of the weakest reasons for hitting it back at the pitcher.

What the players who use this argument are telling us is that they can't get a hit unless it is over the fence or through the pitcher.

If you are truly concerned for safety of the pitcher use the 11th fielder up the middle like the older divisions. Opps that means we will be taken hits away from the weaker hitters that have to use the pitcher to get there hits.
Jan. 31, 2008
wagon487
Men's 50
537 posts
two comments from people they don't know what they are talking about,

1. going up the middle is the cheapest hit and softball (whatever that means) audieh
2. weaker hitters that have to use the pitchers to get their hits. fred scerra
Since when is the middle not part of the field?
If you are afraid to pitch, don't!
50% of my hits are up the middle, my pitcher knows this and is fine with it. And I play at mafors plus level.
I'm a big believer, just get rid of the ultras, 510, cannon, senior combat and we wont' have this problem. Talk about getting cheap hits, it you need the "super bats to get home runs and hits" maybe you should stop playing.
Jan. 31, 2008
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
403 posts
Great post Mike Walker
Jan. 31, 2008
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
Hi Fred & all concerned: The intent of the DBO rule is, in my view, attempt to increase awareness of the importance of safety and that there are consequences. Once the hitters accept and adjust to the DBO rule, it will have little to no impact on game outcome. The rule should apply to all divisions and skill levels however. I'm not in favor of home run limits at any age or skill levels. Yet at the higher skill level perhaps consideration could be given to increasing hitting difficullty by progressively increasing the pitching height and an adjustment of the illegal low pitch along with stricter enforcement of the hitter in the batters box rule ie. both feet in the box at all times. Welcome comment and thoughts.
Jan. 31, 2008
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Wagon, you missed my point and took offense at cheapest! So tell me, why are 50% of your hits up the middle? Is it because it is the hardest place to get a hit?
Jan. 31, 2008
Cliff 21
Men's 55
13 posts
Audieh:
With all due respect the cheapest hit in softball is a mishit 310 foot HR/single/should-be fly-out that is hit with a composite bat (possibly even shaved or painted-over) and propelled artificially 50 to 70 feet by "trampoline effect" up and over the fence where last time I checked outfielders still can't stand.
On the other hand, if you have a guy who all he does is collect "cheap" hits up the middle time after time there are defensive options such as playing five-man against that guy and squeezing him with your outfielders.
Jan. 31, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
wagon487: The part of the discussion that everyone misses is hitting up the middle of the field (which I do a lot) and hitting through the pitcher is two entirely different actions.

I don't think anyone disagrees that hitting into the wide open area over the infield and in front of the outfielders is wrong. What we are saying is purposely hitting back at the pitcher to get a hit is wrong. There is a wide open area out there to get your hit.
Jan. 31, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Hey guys,
Did you ever wonder why golf club manufacturers have not embraced composite face golf clubs? Maybe because Tiger Woods and players of lesser ability would be booming 500 yard drives and rendering current golf course configurations obsolete.
The ball is what flexes and rebounds in golf against a firm metal club.
Maybe it's time to eliminate composite completely in softball and go back to DeMarini's. While they can also be altered, it would be a lot cheaper to investigate them by cutting suspect bats open. $150. replacement if not altered. And most players could tell when someone lauches a ball with an altered metal bat easier than composite in my opinion.
Big boys can still hit plenty far with aluminum. HR's would not be as cheap as they are today.
Played an ASA Tourney a while ago and didn't have a good composite ASA bat to use. Used my old 30 oz DeMarini Fatboy and went yard. Felt good like the old days.
Jan. 31, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
173 posts
Mike Walker is one of the real softball minds out there. Listen carefully to what he has to say. You might learn something rather than be nothing but a squeaky wheel.
Jan. 31, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Jim
Agreed, I always enjoy Mike's post on here.
Fyi - my orthopedic surgeon told me a few years ago the 95% of baseball and softball injuries came fron sliding, Also some of the worst injuries I have seen in softball have been from sliding into a base, diving for a defensive play and by thrown balls hitting people.
I have seen 2 pitchers hit in the face by batted balls that caused serious injury - one from an Ultra II and one from a DeMarini aluminum bat. The DeMairini incident was with a pitcher who just stood there not ready to play defense.
Jan. 31, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
173 posts
I get so tired of guys coming on here to rail about the dangers of batted balls in senior softball. Let me say emphatically "There are no statistics to back up any dangers of the hotter bats". I dont care how logical you think the arguments are against these bats, it "just ain't so", However, the other side of the argument has great merit. Go play in an ASA tournament and I can find many altered, repainted bats that cause competitive problems and physical fighting in the parking lot. I'll bet there are more injuries fighting over bats in ASA play than there are total batted ball injuries in all associations put together. We DO NOT have bat controversies in SS-USA play. Even the ASA admits that there is no danger. They only site the rule about "The integrity of the game". They just want a more defensive game with fewer runs. They do not like 20-19 games, they want 3-2 games. They can play those games in an hour. I dare anyone to find a statement from any ASA executive that says the 1.20 bats are dangerous. If they said that, then if someone were truly injured by an old Ultra II with the ASA stamp intact, the ASA would definitely be guilty in a law suit.
If your argument is that you do not like the hotter bats because of more offense, then you have an argument. Please leave the danger issue alone.
Jan. 31, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Jim,
OK, I don't think you are reading into what I was trying to communicate, so i'll try again in case your reply was about my podts above.
I never complained or said anything about legal 1.20 bats being a safety issue. I'm all for using the latest technology with anything that I do.
My first post was an attempt at sarcasm and a suggestion that we could all still be happy even without the composite bats.
My second post was trying to make a point that most baseball and softball injuries DO NOT come form batted balls. I said I have seen 2 only and that's in 35 years of softball.
I agree that altered bats are a big problem. I also agree that banning senior bats for seniors will open up the altered bats even more and we do not want that.
I do not like ASA and ASA rules at all.
My team was robbed of chances for a few titles in 2006 due to one player using an altered bat being responsible for 6 runs a game in 1 run losses for us. The guy was caught and punished later , but we never got the wins and lost chances to advance because of those losses.
I do know from personal experience that I can hit the ball way farther and easier with a composite Senior bat like Ultra II or Combat, than I can with any other bat. It feels good and almost too good sometimes. Old technolgy in any task seems to make one work harder. That's just the way it is.
Next big tourney we're at together, I'll say Hi and you'll remember who I am because we have talked many times about the Combat and how we both love them.
I don't know how to fix the altered bat problem other than the bat companies coming out with tamper proof bats somehow.
Jan. 31, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
173 posts
GeHall44, This thread has quite a bit on safety of batted balls. I wasn't criticising you, read the whole thread and its clear where some guys think that our bats are dangerous. They really have a different agenda but they always talk about safety.
Jan. 31, 2008
jrhunch
103 posts
gehall44,asa rules suck.where i play you cant use the fatboy it is illegal.the freak has been illegal in asa leagues also.the freak has been illegal here in rochester new york for 4 years even though we have to pay asa sanction fees.i might add that these are young peoples leagues.asa has its own agenda.they dont care about senior softball.my team will boycott asa tournies from here in.i agree with you on the injuries.the worse ones i see are from running,diving and sliding.stay safe
Jan. 31, 2008
DCPete
243 posts
Anyone on this thread who thinks that composite bats are dangerous or create too much offense have a conveniently short memory. The manufacturers didn't start making composites until the Associations started using 44 cor balls in place of the 47, 48 & 50 cor balls. IMO, a 50 cor ball hit off an aluminum bat was far more dangerous than a 44 cor ball is today off an Ultra or any composite. Not to mention if you outlawed all composites and still played with the current 44 cor ball, attendance at the tournaments would decrease drastically. If you're not convinced, just check last year's ISSA tournament in Manassas, VA to see how few teams showed up to play with ASA bats and sub par 44 cor balls (despite the TD virtually begging teams to attend)
Jan. 31, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Ok, lots of good points. I did read the whole thread over a few times.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the real or hidden agenda behind these safety posts then?
No need to name names or slander anyone, I guess I'm just curious about what exactly the real goal behind these safety threads is.
Is someone trying to gain an advantage for personal reasons or have it in for someone or some teams?
Some things have to be spelled out for me sometimes to see the light. Enlighten me please.
jrhunch - rules do suck. Must be a NY thing. I grew up on Long Island and played my first softball in a Sunday Bar League. Double header for a keg with different host bar every week.
Now in Cali and our local ASA sponsored league is single wall bats only, no composites at all. They use the insurance BS excuse every time it is questioned.
Feb. 1, 2008
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
First, thanks to those of you who hae used my name kindly or in vain on this thread... Smile :)

GeHall44, you asked some very, very good questions in your last post. I would like to take a shot at answering a couple of them from my perspective only.

I used the words "hiding behind another agenda" in my original post here. It is my belief that everyone has a preferrence when it comes to topics like, safety, bats, balls, etc. In most cases I don't react to statements regarding equipment or balls because that is a topic like religion or politics, you never win those arguements... lol

Anyway, when it comes to senior softball safety discussions I think associations and/or association reps hide behind those words to push or promote an agenda that is often only related to either their internal association politics or profit which can be one in the same. Thus my reaction to the statements that the Senior Summitt spent much time discussing player safety issues... If those discussion didn't focus mostly on the areas of sliding, field conditions and protective gear then I think this topic was not really about player safety but something else!!!! $$$$

Someone on here said something about how ISSA attendance was down and pointed to the ASA bat rules and bad balls as part of the problem. I agree totally with those statements as part of the problem with that senior tournament and all other senior softball programs who stand firmly behind ASA lead playing equipment rules. Those programs using these "out of touch with reality" rules are suffering from lack of participation across the board including in the younger programs.

So if we look at this logically, money is the driving factor for why associations make rule changes which is intended to make teams happier and get more participation. So if ASA and/or similiar tournaments are loosing participation and they can't change their rules to get more team participation then why wouldn't they argue the safety issue at the senior summitt in an effort to get other associations to change their rules? Seems logicial to me! I read that even SSWS is now going to allow the U2 in it's tournaments. If true then they have finally decided that what SPA learned a couple of years ago is true, "if you don't give the players and teams what they want then they won't come"!

The Hidden Agendas behind similar "safety" arguements don't just come from the associations trying to gain participation (i.e. money). Some are being promoted by teams who also want to gain a competitive advantage and again you may hear the arguements to change the bats, balls, and rules for SAFETY as a way of making the playing field more equal towards them. That is just a fact of life and senior softball alike.

Mike Walker
Hollis Appraisals
Feb. 1, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Can someone tell me what the logic is that if I can't use my Senior bat I won't go to a tournament.

I play 9 tournaments in a year and 5 are ASA. Do I stay home on those 5 because I can't use my Launch 510. No Way I am staying home for that reason.

If you love the game of softball what is the difference what bat/ball you use except to satisfy your own egos.

I just love to play I don't care what rules I have to play under.
Feb. 1, 2008
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
Hi Fred,

I think there are those players and teams who will stay home because of that very reason. Maybe you or I can't understand that but it is true. If given a choice between going to the ISSA event or the ISA event at about the same time then I'll choose the ISA tournament. Why? Many reasons but the bats and balls do play a major role in my decision making process.

Nothing wrong with you or anyone choosing to go to an ASA event if you want to. This year ASA and LVSSA are playing the same weekend. Will ASA loose some teams to Vegas? Yes is my answer. Of course some part of the decision is the venue but another part will be that teams would rather play with the same gear they play with all year. I know my whole team looks at it that way!

Mike Walker
Hollis Appraisals
Feb. 1, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
The safety issue is a double edge sword for the associations. The problem is that the major associations that use these "experts" for input are really just morons with big degrees. They continue to make changes to the softball in order to make the game "safer". I have been protesting this since 2002, I was quoted in the senior softball newspaper jan of 2003 that the ball changes will not make the game safer. Well 5 years later and hundreds of thousands of dollars in ball changes later I performed nocsae head form testing with the nocsae lab. When testing was completed the results proved that the most dangerous ball in use today is the ASA spec ball. .44cor 375 compression 6.75 to 7 ounce minimum of 12 inch. The second was the rest of the spec balls. .44 cor 375 to 400 compression 6.5 ounce 12 inch +- .625

The safest ball by far was .53 cor 265 compression 6.5 ounce 12 inch +- .625 The results were alarming to point that I had the top engineer from the nocsae lab come to the ASA convention and speak to them on the results of this test, well they did listen and all of the other associations did too. We are currantly making test balls to be used this year by all of the associations, maybe we can finally get this right.

The test severity index showed that 1200 being the number you want to be below, the ASA ball tested was 1400 + over the .53 cor 265 compression ball. So not only was it over the 1200 si. it was 1400 over the .53 cor 265 compression. What did the .53 cor 264 compression test you ask? 430si.

So now all of the associations are looking into this and I believe this will be the future very soon.

The down side? Your senior bats will not be a factor in softball. We hit with aluminum single wall bats, ASA composites, USSSA composites and SENIOR composites and they all hit the same. I actually hit the longest of my shots with the single wall. So you can still have the performance and a much safer game with the correct ball change.
Feb. 1, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Mike I got to sit in on the summit on the fringes as a member of the advisory board here were my observations on what I took notes on. 1.) Safety I don't recall anything on bat discussions at least what was boiled down when we were in the room. There was an amazing safety presentation on senior health while on the field, heart health etc. 2.) I must of missed the ISSA people they did not grab my attention and I thought I had done a good job observing. I met the LVSSA, SPA, SSWS, ASA, Huntsman, SSUSA, UTRIP and NSA were not there, I guess the ISSA made quite an impression on me. What struck me was that ASA had two reps there and they seemed very nice and participative, for whatever that is worth. Great all around experience, I was treated fantastic as an interloper, and felt that my energy, time and money were well rewarded. One brick at a time.
Feb. 1, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
trumpball,
in as much as your in the market to sell balls and all, one might figure you could have the results be said what ever you'd like. Not to say they were not but it's like most anything someone hawks . the hype if there but the actual article may be something else.
Stoneman, or someone else posted a note on balls that came up with different specs on different sides of the same ball.
But what ever is allowed, used, legal for that assn or tournament we will all have the choice to attend or not, use the bats allowed or not but no doubt be stuck with the same balls.
It seems as though balls bats and now rules are the items that have been changing lately.
Hope it works out for you\company.

Lecak,
How the heck can you meet assn reps if not there? Must be a mistake somwhere...
Feb. 1, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
OK so I wasn't an English major UTRIP and NSA were not there. ISSA might have been don't know. The other 6 I met. All nice people.
Feb. 1, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Lecak,
English major, what's that, a new division? lol
I know I wasn't, nor am I a typist.
Should of been an interesting day for you.
Feb. 1, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
Tait's
The test were performed in an independent A2LA accredited nocsae approved lab, our ball was not the only one tested. Our company or any other has no say in what the tests prove. This is the same lab that does all of the nocsae testing for everything that needs approvals.

The facts are evident however you may not have read the senior softball paper it was published in, again the date of that paper was january 2003. Feel free to read it you like.

All of the associations mentioned hold these tests as factual and also hgold this lab in very high reguard because of their accreditations.

So I am insulted that you would even insinuate that I or the test lab would ever try to put such important imformation out that is false or mis-leading. You are an ass my friend.
Feb. 1, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
I looked at my notes in more detail and the only mention of bats that I noted were that SSWS was going to allow the U11. There was some talk of the altered bat policy that was put in place last year having positive effect. From the presentation and tone this did not sound like a group that had any interest in introducing additional variables to what is already in place. Again my take.
Feb. 1, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
trumpball,
Fair enough, Do not remember the papers from back then, Lucky to remember this years papers...
Honestly did not mean for it to read that way but I see your point in the way I worded it.
But do you really think i may not be the only one who is like mindes, just more verbal ion actually saying it.
I't is not unlike bats or anything else out there. Sometimes the advertising is much more that the reality is for that product. RE bats, they do not perform as stated, dent, break, whatever. But we still buy them.
For the balls, perhaps somewhere down the line this will bring one we all use where ever we go. But I doubt it. Ball manufacturers are all over the place.
But for them to hear a presentation all together, is better than piece meal. They all heard the same one, saw the same thing. It was a good thing.
Feb. 1, 2008
tcadmw1
Men's 55
62 posts
Hi Lecak,

Very nice post. I am glad you had a chance to witness the summitt and I am glad that most of the safety issues did NOT revolve around bats, balls or rule changes again. As I understand the Summit it is really just a meeting of the associations to see if they can find common ground for senior softball? Having said that there have been lots of changes over the years based on what is discussed at these meetings.

Sorry if I ramble off topic from time-to-time but these meetings and/or rules committees are nice however, when they start discussing safey issues that makes my head spin... lol

Having Defibulators, keeping plenty of FREE water available and keeping the playing fields in good shape are what I think are good safety issues to discuss at the summitt.

I'm not sure which organization stated that they don't have an altered bat problem anymore??? Well that is another thread...

PS - RB Thomas is with ISSA and may have represented ASA at the summitt? So if you met him then you met the ISSA rep. He is a very nice man and one of the founding fathers of senor softball organizations.
Feb. 1, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
Some of the things you may not understand is right now with the cor and comp of the balls, the bats are doing 80% of the performance after swing speed. With the new balls the ball is doing 80% of the performance after the swing speed. Therefore the bat is much less of performance factor with the new balls.

That being said. I hit the .44/375 ball with a senior bat just as far as I hit the new ball with a senior bat. I hit the new ball with an aluminum single wall just as far as with the composite senior bat. Smaller guys with less bat speed did not hit the ball as far with either bat, but still hit the ball very well. probably 75% of the players will see no difference in the game.
Feb. 1, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
trumpball
Not sure about the %'s but otherwise I'd agree.
Too many players use lets say the U-2 for example, thinking oh gee, Now I'll put it out. Not the case in most instances. The otherwise base hitters, that used to drop them in, now get it to the outfielder, they do not have to run in or otherwise adjust to them.
Those that could go out, still do, those who couldn't no matter what, are still there also.
A consistent ball is nice, I adjust bat use to the balls cor\comp.
Feb. 1, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
taits,
The difference is that it doesn't matter what bat you use, the performance is going to be very close. The guys with slow bat speed will still hit the ball hard but will not be able to get the distance they get now.
Feb. 1, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
trumpball,
On that, I will have to disagree about the performance part. and for slow BS, they never will get distance with either type of bat...imo
Just have to take a wait and see, what comes out of all this if anything.
A little tweak here, there, every where, but why try to fix something that isn't (over all) broke. Oh, lubrication, to keep the gears moving, ie the tweak. I got it.
Feb. 1, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
173 posts
TRUMPBALL,
You are just too far ahead of us old potbellied broken down athletes. I thought this thread was doing good, that is until you got into it. Now we have all the facts and nothings left to be said. Now I have to go complain about something new.
Feb. 1, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
taits,
I have to disagree with your thought on the game not being broken, I think the whole game is broken. You have 4 levels with 4 different set of rules. Every year they have to hold a summit to enact new rules. The players bitch and complain about the rules no matter what you do with them. Hell that kind of sounds like our government right now and it is broken.

Now that being said it is not that bad it just needs to find the middle ground that all of the players and associations can agree on 1 set of rules that are fair for all. Sometimes I have to laugh about some of the posts on here, IT'S RECREATION SOFTBALL guy's not the end of the world.
Fairplay and safety should be the 2 first goals of the game.
Feb. 1, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
Jim are you refering to yourself as an athlete?
Feb. 1, 2008
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
Trump , if you hit the 44/375 ball as far with an aluminum bat as you do with a senior bat ,then you are not even close to being representative of 98 % of the people that play the senior game . It would completely change the current game . Wether or not that is good or bad is up to the individual to decide . Also , the fact ,that most senior tournament players don`t consider these tournaments as " recreational ". Is good for your co`s and every other softball co`s bottom line . It is human nature to try and gain any advantage you can in a competition . If most didn`t consider their games as serious competition , they would not fork over the dollars ,that they do for the best equipment . My personal opinion is go back to the aluminum bat and the 47/500 balls .
Feb. 1, 2008
Leoslocks
Men's 60
45 posts
I thought everyone figured out that Compression affected the performance of the ball more than the C.O.R? Perhaps hot weather will not affect a low compression/high cor ball as much as the 44/375 we used in 07.

The rumor that caught my ear last fall was the ball would be not as lively in 2008. So if the ultra bats will not jack the ball, those that are addicted to the power will turn to restiching balls. . . A sad commentary on the state of our society.
Feb. 2, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
First let me say there is no change to the ball for 2008. Second I wish I could hit a .44/375 as far with aluminum as I can with a senior bat, but that is not the case. The .44/375 was a good 50 ft in distance difference, but the new ball was equal. On composite bats the compression has more to do with the distance than the cor but lower cor makes plastic bats work better and aluminum worse.With the right combination of cor and comp they both can hit equally. I will be at the TOC and I will glad to pitch some balls to guys to see for themselves. Bring a single wall bat, mine are probably to heavey.
Feb. 2, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Mike Walker - thanks for answering my questions. It is much more clear to me now. and I see lots more good info since I was last on here Thursday.
Kevin - I'm really interested in the ball specs you posted and if I could would like to ask you to put it in much simpler terms for us to understand.
I had my jaw broken in 2 places in 1992 from a THROWN blue stitch 47/525? STAR ball while I was running bases. All I know is that ball was I beleive an imitation of the old blue Steele's balls that were very hot. When you bounced them on cement, they would jump back up to your glove.
Anyway, it sounds to me like you are telling us that the new 53 COR ball will flex and rebound off any bat because it is softer and that the 44/375 current balls are harder and flex the composite Ultra type bats more to get distance and velocity.
Is that correct?
If yes, then it makes sense to me that the 53 COR ball may flex rather than the bones in my jaw if some A hole ever hits me in the face again and that they would be a much safer ball.
If average players don't have to sacrifice 50-100 feet in distance using this ball and it is indeed safer, then I am all for it and will send you my resume to apply for a West Coast Sales position in your company.
Feb. 2, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
Let's think about this in simple terms. COR is the the ability to rebound. When you lower the cor you lessen the ability to rebound.
Comp is the hardness of the ball. Lower compression softer ball. Now a .44/375 is a ball that does not rebound vwey well and is still a little to hard for safty sake.

So think of it this way. The ball hits you in the shin it does not want to rebound, so it drives the energy into the bone.
Next ball has a higher cor less comp, ball hits you in the shin ball wants to rebound and the comp is low so it is a much lesser impact. Does it still hurt? Yes but not the type of injury that is occuring now.

Now lets talk bats and balls. The ball we use now does not want to rebound, so on contact the bat wall flex's and the ball is shot off the bat. Bat doing most of the work. Composites flex way more than aluminum.

New ball. The ball wants to flex due to a lower comp and the ball wants to rebound due to a high cor. The ball will not flex the walls of a comp bat the way they do now but fly well due to the high cor. So if you have a hard bat you can flex the ball well and get the ball to perform like the bat/ball combination of todays equipment. Now that ball with the bats of today are pretty much the same, so all of the bats hit this ball about the same because the ball is providing the performace not the bat. Like I said I will be at the TOC come see me I will pitch to some guys and you can see for yourself.
Feb. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Kevin,
Glad you're on our side.
I've been saying all along from a layman's perspective
that it's the ball and not the bat that cues everything.
Once the ball is uniform and lively enough to have fun with
"let the games begin."
I've learned a ton from your posts and I like the direction
you and the ball phenomenon are taking us.
Way to go, Bro
and keep up the good work.
Feb. 2, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Kevin - that's exactly the explanation I was looking for. Thank you.
Now, how much power will the bat MFG's exert against using a ball like this?
If I understood you correctly, I will be able to hit this 53 cor low comp ball the same with any bat and with the harder or less flex bat, the more the ball should flex. That may take the market away from all of the $300 all association approved bats for all softball divisions.
Bargain hunters, especially seniors, will go for the cheaper aliminum hard bats like CU31 or even wood.
I might never break another bat.
Yipee !
I like that thought.
Was there any testing done on distance performance of these balls?
Feb. 2, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Joeeeey,
I'm sitting hear at the computer because it's raining up here and almost too nasty to play golf. I'm thinking about putting the rain gear on and slopping through the mud anyway.
I got a brand new loaded up driver off the altered golf clubs website that going to help me Take it Deep, baby.
Unfortunatly, there is no magic golf club that will hit it STRAIGHT for you. That is totally dependent opon skill and a little luck. : )
Feb. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gee,
Always glad to hear your voice.
Tell me about the rain.
Good news about the balls coming down the pike from Kevin, eh?
How'd your fund raiser go?
Can't wait to get back to the mound.
Feb. 2, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Hey Joe,
Great news about the balls from Kevin. That guy has balls, huh?
That was weak, sorry.
Fundraiser went well and had great attendence. The comedians had Dianne and I laughing like crazy and we all had a good time.
I may have to come up and take BP with you and Ronnie sometime soon if that's OK.
Supposed to be dry all next week I think.
Feb. 2, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
Funny that you mention the bat manufactures. These are the same people that sit in the manufactures meetings every year telling ASA,USSSA,NSA,ISA,SSWC, etc that the bats are not the problem and have the ball manufactures change the ball. Well remember the saying "be careful what you wish for" Well we are going to change the ball 1 more time and this time it will be done correctly. People will still buy exspensive bats. The associations are all in favor of this change once it is done correctly.
Now 80% bat performance
Later 80% ball performance
Feb. 2, 2008
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
OK Kevin. I wish you success with this ball because it certainly makes sense to me.
Now to put you on the spot one more time.
What is the distance difference with the new ball?
Every one is going to ask that question I think before they will agree to use it.
Feb. 2, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
I really don't think there is any. We tested with guys of all ability and didn't see much difference at all. The only real difference was when they tried to hit a .44/375 with a aluminum bat, then it was a huge difference. That being said the guys that hit liked hitting a aluminum bat and this ball very much.
Feb. 2, 2008
DCPete
243 posts
OK, so why do we need a "safer ball" when almost everyone on this board agrees that there are no more batted ball injuries now than there ever were? Are "safer balls" just a smokescreen for less offense & fewer HRs? After all, with less HRs the associations will lose fewer balls & spend less time retrieving them, the lower scores will speed up the games, the associations won't need as many field permits and their bottom line will be more money in their pocket.
Feb. 3, 2008
tattooball
623 posts
Why would I want to sell less balls? The ball are about the same in performance, that has already been stated.

Why do we want a safer ball? Well just like in towns all over america, you have intersections that are very dangerous. People know they are dagerous but they don't put traffic lights up until someone gets killed. Do you think we should wait until someone gets killed before we make a change that could prevent it. Remember accidents happen, on dec 21 in houston tx Greg Ferguson was killed with a line drive to the head, Greg left behind a family that now has no father or husband live life with. Greg was an umpire in the game and got hit by a line drive direct to the head. After 7 days on life support they pulled the plug and unfortunatly he passed.

In the last 10 years there have been 5 fatalities from head trauma in softball, would you like to tell their families that there in no need for a safer ball?

Some smoke screen we have created.
Feb. 3, 2008
2awesom
Men's 50
296 posts
kein, i just wanted to add that i for one certainly appreciate everything you do for this game of our's to make it safer and alot of fun to play! Mike #66 was right, you are a Good Guy!
Feb. 3, 2008
2awesom
Men's 50
296 posts
sorry that was supposed to say Kevin...
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