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Discussion: ratings

Posted Discussion
Oct. 6, 2004
Bobby L
Men's 55
29 posts
ratings
In checking on the softball ratings page,I find no rating for any team called HMR in the 55 Div.However,I do find a rating for Frank n Stein under the Major Plus division.Also the Dawgs are listed as Major and the Old Dogs are rated as AAA.To make the picture complete Tharaldsons just won the NSA Worlds in August beating3 of the 6 teams that were playing in the Major division in Las Vegas this past week -end and the next week got moved down to AAA in time for Plano and Las Vegas worlds.Is it just me or do any of You others think that there is something funny going on?I talked to Terry at the tourney and was given a song and dance about teams being on a watch list etc.It seems, to me at least, that the people who need to be watched are the ones that continue to let these teams move up and down.No wonder there were only 6 teams in the Major and 30 or so in the AAA.
Oct. 6, 2004
tweav44
1 posts
.i to wonder how a team can move down two divisons even if they change names and show up with their major plus uniforms; old dawgs finished 2nd last year in aaa and wre major last ratings; tharldson was rated major all year ; gusto 55's wre also rated major all year how can all these teams be rated major then move down for this tournament.
Oct. 7, 2004
kdog
Men's 50
13 posts
Reply to Ratings by Bobby L. I have seen this happen in all the associations this year. Our team went to the USSSA, NSA, and ISSA and there were teams that were playing AAA, that had either played Major, finished second in a National Tournament and were playing above the real true AAA teams. I played on a team that went to the AA World Tournament last year in Canada, and we won the US National Championship, and were automatically moved to AAA, for this year, and the team that won the World Tournament were also moved to AAA. I have played this game along time as most of the gentlemen playing it today, and have seen teams travel all the way across the United States to play in a 4 team tournament just to win a World Tournament. This does not happen only in the Seniors, it happens with the younger generation also. They change the team name, and drop down two classes and go out out state and play. I believe eventually if the classification system stays as it is, the interest in playing Senior Softball will slowly be degraded.
Oct. 7, 2004
Dbax
Men's 60
1265 posts
Tharaldson's should be embarrased for playing AAA in Plano. And Ridge should be also for letting them.
Oct. 7, 2004
SoCal'er
68 posts
reply to tweav,I have also questioned why a team moves down OR up. I know the ground rules as far as winning or 2nd in a World tourny. As far as the teams you mentioned gusto 55's played aaa all year. They were made major when the July ratings came out,it was appealed with proof of record for the year and moved back to aaa. We played HMR twice in Vegas(lost both) a very good aaa team that could probly compete in major's but no way +. We also lost to Old Dawgs,a good aaa team,not major. I can't speak about Tharaldsons their a ? ,mark.
Oct. 7, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2641 posts
Since we're on the subject of rankings, I would like to bring up the idea of rating players instead of teams. This had be suggested before by players in California and elsewhere.
Each plalyer should be ranked AA, AAA, Major or Major Plus. The organizations would then give each AA player a number value, such as 1. The AAA players would get a 2, Major a 3 and Major Plus a 4. Then figure the average value for the players. The rating board could then assign the team the appropriate rating. For instance, an average player value of 1-1.99 would rank the team as a AA team. If the player value was 2-2.99 they would be a AAA team etc. There are many details that need to be worked out, such as, do you count players not playing that weekend, will some teams have AA players on their roster that will never play just to lower there average, etc.
What does everyone think?
Bobby L, I hope you don't mind me adding this to your thread.
Oct. 7, 2004
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
BobbyL-I think the reference to "HMR" in an earlier thread should have read "AMR" which is American Metals Recycling from Ohio. I know a bunch of the Frank-n-Stein guys played with them.
LL
Oct. 7, 2004
turn2
484 posts
amr played major plus in manassas, they had a decent team. something need to be done on the major and major plus level. there are only 3-4 teams in each of those divisions in most of the worlds. it seems everybody wants to sandbag and play in the aa & aaa division. the top 2 levels need to be combined somehow if possible. its a thought.
thanks, donnie
Oct. 7, 2004
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
I play for Top Gun 55 and, to be honest, I didn't see any teams that didn't belong in the tourney. HMR beat us in the semis, but we had the tying run at the plate in the 7th and just came up short. We beat Tharaldsons in the seeding round in a game whose closeness was obscured by our 22 run last inning. The Old Dawgs beat us in the losers bracket Sunday but at that point, everyone was so tired it was hard to tell talent from perseverence.
As for Gusto 55's, they are one of four Southern California teams that beat each other on a regular basis; the others being Top Gun, NCI, and the Marauders. Although none of us are intimidated by playing Major teams, our talent is spread out so evenly that I think we are all legitimate AAA teams.
Bruce, it was really nice meeting you in Vegas. I think your idea has a lot of merit, but who and what will decide the standards? How would you rate a Major hitter who is a AA fielder. Or a great fielder who is a .500 singles hitter? Don't forget, this may prevent a really great player from playing with his friends.
I apologize for the length of this transmission
Oct. 7, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2641 posts
Nice meeting you also DMac. I understand your concerns but you can say the same about a team that scores 30+ runs and hits 0 homeruns, or a team that hits hrs but can't field.
.
Oct. 7, 2004
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Point taken Bruce, so what then differentiates a major team from one that is rated AAA. We have done very well against major teams on open fields, but we have been hammered on fields with fences. Though I admit it is not always the case, most people equate major teams with power. In 2,455 at bats this year, Top Gun hit 96 home runs, less than one every twenty five at bats. This is hardly the numbers of a Major team.
Oct. 7, 2004
rabbit
Men's 65
296 posts
MY team, the Indiana Classics 50 AAA, in which we were 35-15 in tourney play this season, batted 1722 times and hit 11 home runs and only 2 of them were over the fence, but we hit close to .600 as a team, we finished 2nd 4 times ,won the NSA Worlds and Finished 2nd in SPA 50's AAA in Plano, We are a very good AAA team, but will be playing Major division next year,because of where we finished in the tourneys, so if 11 home runs makes us a major team, I would say 96 home runs will make you one also.
I agree with Bruce and I have mentioned this on the web site, that they should rate the players, and to the life of me, why do teams think they need to play down all the time, any team can be beat, I know, because we have beat some major teams,you wont get any better playing weaker teams, except, you might win a trophy to be put away and never seen again or a tee shirt that wont mean anything,because it was too easy to win it.
You would think that we all being over 50, would just be thankfull to be playing at our age, and not making winning everything as SOME of the teams try to do, I know there is a lot of money involed, maybe that is the problem, the cost of the tourneys is so high, that we all think we have to win to make it worth while, dont get me wrong I like to win as much as the next guy, but I just wont a level playing field, thats all i ask, dont mind losing, just want a chance to win. I think that is the problem, some teams just dont think they can win ,so they dont even go.Sorry, I sometimes talk to much, but this is just my opinion, Rabbit
Oct. 7, 2004
Bobby L
Men's 55
29 posts
Bruce always glad to hear from You.It`s funny but I brought up the same solution to Terry H.up in Vegas.My solution is to have player cards maybe Red forAA,Blue forAAA,White for Majors andGold for Major+.At the beginning of a tourney the mgr.turns in the cards.If a team has 2 or more players from a higher Div.they play in that higher division.1st ,2nd ,and 3rd place gets the respective players a certain # of points such as 3,2,1.When a player reaches a certain number of points he is moved up a Div.That would stop players from playing on different teams in different divisions.I know that there would be some details to be worked out,and in the beginning it would take some hard work to set it up,but at least it would be a start to everyone having a level playing field.
Oct. 8, 2004
stig 52
Men's 50
46 posts
I think the people who rate teams need more information about the teams they are rating. Why not have team evaluation forms for managers to fill out at the qualifier tournaments rating the teams they play in the tournament. We are a small group and the managers know most of the players and teams. Another problem we have are teams that were rerated lower during the season won quite a few world tournaments. I know of at least three teams that were rated lower right before the NSA World won the tournament. Those teams and players should be mandatory bumped up the next year. We need to rate players based on the number of world titles they win.
Oct. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Rating the player is the only thing that makes sense seeing how teams are finding loopholes around the current system.
What you are talking about here is sandbagging. A very common occurance in younger ball nowadays and it has ruined all upper division levels of play. They still try by rating a team with x amount of higher caliber players like your suggesting, problem is that the team will then drop those players in favor of younger unranked players until they get ranked and then they drop them and over and over again with no teams stepping up.
No, the solution is for us seniors a very simple one.
#1. Once a team registers with any of the 10 senior softball assocations, that managers address that they use will be the only address they can use for the rest of the year. We have one team back east in the 50 major plus who used 4 different states this year in 4 different assocaitions and was allowed to broaden there area for top players by doing so.
#2. The first senior assocaition that a mangers list his team with and under what team name he uses has to be the same team name for all of senior softball for that entire year.
#3. Now you go and rate the players nationwide and follow step #1 and step #2 and we are in business.

Saying that you dont hit a lot of home runs, so you should not be a higher division team means nothing.

It always has been and always will be determined by how many total runs you can score verus how many your opponent scores.

Any team averging 20 or more runs on a consistant basis should be at least a major team.

The typical score at major plus is 20 to 30 with 3 to 5 home runs for each team, depending on which bats and which balls are being used.

The whole issue here is and always has been a mental issue along the lines of doubting oneself too much while at the same time giving the other guys way too much credit.

I think that teams that win local sanctioned tournaments should be first evaluated for those. if your beating the teams in AAA and win a tournament, the very next tournament should be played as a major team to see how you stack up, etc. If you dont match up then go back to AAA next event. If you win 3 AAA events before worlds then you stay up at the next highest level because if your just too good to stay at AAA.

Now this would mean a lot of monitering teams and players by the local senior assocaitions and i am all for filling out evaluation reports on the teams we play agaisnt along the way as well.

My team will not be a problem, we will play major plus as long as we stay together and would not have it any other way.

Hope no one takes this the wrong way and these are only my opinions and i am open to other opinions as well.

Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Oct. 8, 2004
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
MIKE: Good thinking, but, DOES THIS WORLD ALREADY HAVE TOO MANY RULES? In a D division, one team was 13-1 & 14-0. THIS SAME TEAM WAS MOVED UP & in the next go around, in the 1ST six games in D+, this same team has only gone 6 innings once & been beaten in 3-4 inning in the other 5 games. 0-6.
If, a team wins a National or Worlds, that team should move up the next year. If, said team wins two, then,move them up for the rest of the yr. Many teams in AA, AAA, & Major, want to defened their "title" the next yr. Should they be allowed? Also, do not give rings out in AA, AAA, or MAJORs.
Oct. 8, 2004
Bobby L
Men's 55
29 posts
M.K. I agree with You that there are just to many teams sandbagging.These teams think that if they don`t win at least 80% of the games that they play they should be allowed to move down.You have some very valid points about teams playing under different names,mgrs.etc.I would also agree with stig52 that opposing teams should rate teams that they play against in tourneys.If the tournament directors were doingtheir jobs correctly they would rerate the stronger teams when thy sent in the results to the assoations headquarters,but apparently this is to much work.M.K. it`s probably not a problem in Major Plus but in the lower div.some teams will play in 1 qualifier and then just play local tourneys or play on several teams until it comes time for the Worlds and then show up again.The teams used to have to qualfy for World tourneys now you just pay your entry fee and load up.As I told terry in Vegas it`s impossible for a 3 man committee to rate teams across the country and hope to get it right.This last tournament was just another example of that.
Oct. 9, 2004
RunDMc
1 posts
DMac thanks for your message supporting HMR being placed in the AAA division in Las Vegas.
I am the player/manager of the HMR 55‚s and feel the need to explain our situation in further detail. We wore FrankNSteins shirts, (with HMR on the sleeve), because I had them left from our last season which was ‚03. We disbanded because we couldn‚t compete @ the Major plus level, and merged with AMR out of Cleveland in‚04 in a final attempt to compete, but this experiment was also unsuccessful. None of the 4 Cleveland starters could make the trip to Vegas, along with 2 Pgh starters. (With those players in place we were a Major team because we had 1 legitimate HR hitter.)
I sent a letter to Terry and followed up with a phone call and discussed our situation in detail. To Terry‚s credit he took our situation under advisement, talked to some tournament officials out east and made the decision to place us in the AAA division. I challenge anyone to lose 6 starters from their lineup and not ask for some concessions.
All of our players are from the immediate Pgh area within 50 miles of my home. I put up the entry fee myself and entered under my company name of HMR. We have participated in the SSWC every year since ‚96, and we paid our own air fare, car rental, and hotel expenses in order to make this trip.
Of the 11 games played, we hit a total of 7 HR‚s. We pride ourselves on solid defense, team speed, and hitting behind the runner, (all key ingredients to a successful AAA team). All of the games were close and it was refreshing to compete against teams that had similar talent to us. The final 2 game scores against Theraldson were the only games we scored over 20 runs. This was due mainly to the „blinding sun‰ on Field #1, and fortunately we were home team, and whoever batted last had a significant advantage.
Although the goal of all teams is to be successful and win a championship, my teammates and myself would never „bend the rules‰ to win.
Oct. 11, 2004
JOHN BOB
Men's 60
76 posts
I was in Las Vegas for 55aaa & did not see any major teams.There were a lot of real good aaa teams,but you wants to play good teams when in a world tournament.Our Jim & Joe's team won NSA world this year without hitting 1 home run,there's no way we can play major.We are a leauge team all living within 15 miles of each other.I like the NSA home run rule where it's 1 up but a out if hit out of turn.This may keep some major players from playing aaa
Oct. 13, 2004
stig 52
Men's 50
46 posts
It's tough to rate teams when good teams are allowed to pick up good players from other good teams that didn't go to the tournament. I know there were many teams at Las Vegas that di exactly that. I was told that this was legal but I could not find it in the rule book. Whether tis is legal or not it is not right. It is not fair to the teams that played all year long with the same roster and then go to a world tournament and see this taking place. To me this is political B-S to make more money and shows the tournament director does not care about the players.
Oct. 13, 2004
JOHN BOB
Men's 60
76 posts
I agree that it's hard to rate teams,each year younger players move to next age group but also players that can't move are a year older.Like I said pior message from what I saw in SSWC world in Vegas there were no major teams in 55 aaa in my opinion.Of the 28 teams about 4 should have been able to play aa.I just have a problem with giving a player a single or double if he hits a home run when his team has none to hit,it should be a out in aaa in all association's.If a player can't keep it in the yard he should be playing major or major +
Oct. 18, 2004
jrhunch
92 posts
i would like to see the tourn. prelim format changed in some cases.i would like the brackets to have a team from each division in it.the scores of each game should be posted and rated.in some tourns i would like to see the division champs playoff this would also help in rating a team.each win scores pts. depending on the class of each opponent.lets be real the only world champions are the super-majors unless proven different.a major team is always capable of beating a super-major team if they are using the good balls and bats with a hr limit.it is when the ball is bad and the mikens are illegal that the lower teams have less of a chance unless you hit singles like thermco.the teams with sponser always have an advantage in sports that has always been that way since we were kids.you have to play the best to be the best congrats to all the super major champs.looking forward to your competition
Oct. 30, 2004
THECAT
59 posts
Since the controlling body,SSUSA,can not judge properly the ranking system to the satisfaction of teams and the issue is of importance. Let the opposing managers judge the competition. A flyer with a name of the team being ranked, the name of the team ranking and a simple higher, same or lower area to be marked after every game.The flyer to be turned into the umpire who in turn turns it in to the tourn. director. I think that with in the following year a truer ranking will be realized. Do not underestimate the opposing managers honesty and observations its much better than the SSUSA's.Yes there will be a few misses in the ranking due to personal issues,BUT not as many as there are NOW.The tourn. will be stronger and just as competitve.Maybe, just maybe we can put this issue to sleep and find another one.
Oct. 30, 2004
Bat-Heater
Men's 50
64 posts
BruceinGA and MK39 very well thought out comments. It may be a little additional work for the softball associations but in the end well worth it. It seems to me that if the various softball associations were to marry up your two ideas they would be taking a giant step forward. Also, if players were rated the way you described, it should do away with the Florida and CA rule as it would no longer matter. i.e. we are a Canadian team that is rated AAA and do ok at that level however, if we pick up 2 or 3 major level players from CA or WA or anywhere else, we would probably do ok in Major as well.
Oct. 30, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Bruce.

Rating players is absolutely the way to go.
A team could be made of of different rated players to some extent.
Get one of your super smart math professor buddies to get e rough draft started and send me a copy.
I am working with some folks in AZ to build some sort of player rating system an dcould use all the input I can get.
On a side note, I will be in GA in Nov. Should I bring my bat?
Oct. 31, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2641 posts
Sure Joncon, bring your bat. What part of Ga? I'm in North Atlanta. I need to say that we are trying to go the SSUSA WinterNationals in Ft Myers the weekend of Nov 13 and I am going to Fernandina Beach for some bp with the guys from Jacksonville. I almost forgot on Nov 28-30 my wife and I are going to Biloxi where I will give the blackjack tables a try.
With the time change I don't know when it will get dark, but I can usuallly get away from work during the day. Let me know when you're comming.
Oct. 31, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Bruce.

I fly into Atlanta 11/10. I will be staying near Dublin (a couple hours south?) I am at a wedding on 11/13.

I leave Atlanta 11/17

Email me and we can try to get together

FABCO@COX>NET

Thanks, John
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