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Discussion: Jobbed? Rule Bending? Honor? Sportsmanship? or Cheating?

Posted Discussion
Aug. 30, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Jobbed? Rule Bending? Honor? Sportsmanship? or Cheating?
LVSSA 60 Major 1st round elimination game. Paradise Chev versus Minn Masters. Bottom of 7th, Paradise leading 23-21 & Minn Masters hitting. Lead single to center, single through infield, runner goes to 1st & 3rd ball off SS glove scores run leaving runners at 1st & 2nd no out. Fly ball to center - both runners advance to 2nd & 3rd. Game on the line and #29 due to bat. Minn Masters manager comes out and stops the game citing that by prior agreement the next player due up was not able to bat (should have been an out) due to injury)???? After a discussion involving the umpire it's decided no penalty for this man not batting >>>>> this man had previously pitched initally starting the game until we chased him out but continued to hit batting 5 times before this most important AB was needed. Should have been 2 outs and next batter walked by us. Batter following lines out for what should have been the final out of the game.

Our manager had been approached prior to the game with the agreement being if this player started and was then unable to continue play there would be no penalty fi he were to leave the game. 5 AB's later in a crucial situation this batter all of a sudden is held out from batting by his team. Based on the game book this was the weakest hitter in their line up.

We ended up being honorable and accountable to a diss-honorable team/situation.

It cost us the game and a trip to the losers bracket.

Your thoughts?
Aug. 31, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
With no mention that the player was actually out at that time due to injury, blood, or an ejected player, just an "agreement", I think your manager was taken for a ride.
I doubt any rule mentioned above applied, since he batted up until that point. So he should have been an out, IMO. Bad pre planning agreement. Who plans on a player getting "hurt"?
Aug. 31, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
I do not believe there is a "rule" that addresses pre game agreements, like this or any other. Perhaps this is a good example for that need or there will be all kinds "We agreed upon xxxx before the game." scenarios.
Aug. 31, 2008
Joncon
289 posts
""Your thoughts?"""


You lost.


I don't understand why he should have been out. He was stll in the game and batted all of his previous at bats?


I must be missing something.
Aug. 31, 2008
Joncon
289 posts
OK...the guy DIDN'T bat this last at bat because of injury?

Most rules state that unless you have a sub, he is out.

You still lost :)
Aug. 31, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
No good deed goes unpunished. They took advantage of your kindness.
Aug. 31, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Word around the complex today is that the same ploy was used versus Top Gun.

Maybe someone can verify that. If so, there's no doubting what catagory it falls under and all other teams nationally beware.
Aug. 31, 2008
SSUSA Staff
1184 posts
In an SSUSA sanctioned event, the situation described is governed by SSUSA Rule Book section 7.1(1) ...

"A team may bat every player in the dugout and on the team roster, however, all batters must be listed on the Line-up card submitted to the umpire at the start of the game. The number of batters listed cannot be reduced without recording an out when the vacant position comes to bat. In the case of an injury, an out will be recorded only the first time the vacant position comes to bat. (Exception: If a player is ejected, an out will be recorded every time that position comes to bat.)"

NOTE: There is no provision in the SSUSA Rule Book that any playing rules may be waived by mutual agreement of the managers, by the umpire(s) or by the Tournament or Field Director(s).
Aug. 31, 2008
breeze53
Men's 55
40 posts
Where was the umpire in this situation. If you are the umpire in large tournament, you should not care about any side deals and applyed the rules to the situation. I have never heard anything like this. Boy, could you imagine what could happen if side deals were allow in all games. CHAOS But, after witnessing last years umpiring in the LSSVA, it does not surprise me. Bob
Aug. 31, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Another clear flaw in the game of senior softball. This type of an agreement is the same silliness as courtesy runners. If you can't run, you can't play. Simple.

I get more than amused watching some guy leg out a double or triple, then all of a sudden needs a runner. But two innings later he will be back doing the very same thing.

Just foolishness.
Sept. 1, 2008
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
No more a flaw than allowing someone on the message board without posting their name. Dirty you are not interested in helping the game just griping and complaining about something you don't even participate in.
Sept. 1, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
470 posts
JTS2 I agree with you. It's easy to put negative messages on the board when nobody knows who you are if you even play softball. All we know is you like to bitch about senior softball and you play rec. ball at home. Your right everyone has a voice but you don't even play in any senior softball tourneyments. So what are you even doing on this message board. Talk is cheap, no one knows who you are. I guess there's alot of people that would like to know.
Sept. 1, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Most everyone reading this knows who I am. If you don't that is your fault.

I play plenty of senior softball, and I have played and/or seen enough tournaments to know the validity of everything I have said regarding the silly senior rules and poor turnouts at tournaments.

If a product is high quality, people will come. When there are 3 teams in a bracket, or brackets have to be combined, that even further proves my points.
Sept. 1, 2008
F.O.G.
Men's 40
105 posts
I wouldn't think that LVSSA's rules are much different than SSUSA's.

I can tell you after managing at 2 world tournies and many local tournies that I would have never agreed to anything on the side that went against the rule book nor would I have let that situation go down the way it did.

When in doubt, read the rule book.
Sept. 1, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Dirty is your last name Dog.While your sitting at home leaving depoits in your back yard how can you knock teams for entering a tournament and only having 3 or 4 teams in their div. they sure didn't plan on it working out that way but they pay their money show up and play,meet new people get some needed exercise and have a little fun doing something they love to do.Be a player not a player hater and get that back yard cleaned up.

Ray Morgan
Gekle Builders
50/major
Sept. 1, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Ray, I am sure they didn't but after having it happen time and time again how many times do you have to get beat in the head to get the hint?

It is the nature of senior tourneys. You mean there are tourney regulars who still don't get that? Too many "nationals" and "worlds" so that few if any really mean anything. Too many to get decent turnout. I know things change, but when there was only basically ASA in the 60s and 70s and 30+ teams would come to Parma every other year for the only and real world tourney, that was meaningful. All of these just aren't.
Sept. 1, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Dirty - what did the subject of this thread remotely have anything to do with 3 teams? We're addressing an problem encountered at the LVSSA - or were until you started your normal nonsense.

Start your own threads and if anyone feels they are valid they will contribute their thoughts.

Other than that quit being a one trick pony demanding all of the attention over and over and over just to gain attention. There is simply nothing legitimate that you add 95% of the time.

Get over yourself. Youve been removed numerous times from many boards but your sickness will not let you accept that they are right in doing so.

Contribute in a positive way or don't say anything (if you are man enough to do that). Everyone else seems capable of doing it. Give it a try and gain some respect instead of just vying for attention all the time.

Your not the "Belle of the Ball". You are just the wallflower looking in through a window because you refuse to participate on multiple levels. Seemingly mad at anything/everything/anyone else that is actually participating.

Be a contribution - not a disturbed distraction. It's not addition by subtraction.

Of course, in my view, contributing is not what you are after - never has been.
Sept. 1, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
4x4,

Wow, are you off. For the umpteenth time, here are the suggestions I have made MANY times.

Get rid of the "special" bats. NO need to do in your 60s what you couldn't in your 20s.

Get rid of the courtesy runners. If you cannot run, you cannot play. No shame in that, but this is really a pretty simple not-all-that-demanding game. If you cannot even run, wait until you heal.

Get rid of the second home plate. If I can slide into second and third I sure can slide into home.

Only have a couple of associations at most. Senior softball looks like boxing, and we all know how much that sport as lost with all of the associations and weight classes.

Get rid of the classes. What does a AA championship mean? That I am the best of the worst? That is some kind of honor?????? Not saying I could win a one-class title either, but I do realize that winning AA just really isn't doing all that much in the big picture.

Basically get back to real softball and see if participation increases. I don't see how it could get much lower.
Sept. 1, 2008
the wood
1076 posts
Pete, I'm sorry that I didn't get the chance to speak with you this past weekend. I saw you but was playing and couldn't get over to say hello.
With all due respect, there is little reason to give Casper (heard and not seen) any attention... he will never, ever concede your point even though you have been extremely eloquent in your efforts. There are players and there are talkers... a talker isn't considered to be a player just because he talks overtime. It isn't until he demonstrates his game that he'll get the respect that he so desperately seeks.
I feel badly for your team as the rules ought to be the basis for the game... not side deals or umpires lack of familiarity with the rules. We had several injuries as well but it never occurred to us to ask for favors.
We had a couple of guys (umpires) that clearly didn't know the rules but we had one guy that was as good as any umpire we've ever had... he did two of our games. He knew the rules, he had control but didn't have to prove it... he hustled.
Maybe we'll see you in Phoenix.
BW
Sept. 1, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Thanks Woody - I talked to, and hit with a couple of your guys on Thursday and a bunch of us had a good time on a hot hot Las Vegas day.

Sorry we didn't get a chance to chat but will see you in Phx.
I had a good tourney going but turned a triple into a single when I blew out a quad and we shut it down for the weekend.

Joe, Joe, Rick, Stoney et: al - what a great time that was. We'll have to repeat when we can.

I concur with the observations re: DirtyGary. He, again, is proving disruptive and relishes that role.

I did note his "original" ideas as they came up and some folks did comment on them. He, himself, is his own stumbling block.
Sept. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Pete,
That was a great way to start a tournament!
Great hitting with you and some old friends and foes.

If that was done again or he played a full game after your game,
I say, you were had, Jobbed.
I say you were taken advantage of
and the LVSSA commissioners should review that situation.
Sept. 2, 2008
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
Pete, their pitcher wasn't hurt in the Top Gun game, they claimed he was suffering from heat stroke and wanted to remove him from the line up. He left the game in the 5yh and we did not count it as an out when he came up. It was not pre-arranged before game. Rob
Sept. 2, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
SSUSA - thank you citing the rule as it stands. I believe this would be very much the same among all the organizations.

As a team we were caught completely off guard. Their manager came out of the dugout, got the ump and marched him to center field where our manager was. As a team we did not know the specifics until after the fact. If we had been more prepared we could have stopped and taken a look at the book during the incident. Knowing that a rule cannot be changed the umpire should have enforced it correctly on the spot. The other manager was very vehement during the "swaying" stage.

Bottom line it's a very (convienient) incorrect behavior on their part.

Curveball - thanks for the info. It seems odd that, given the possibility and seriousness of heat stroke that that player would be allowed by his own team/friends to continue until any certain at bat.

Thankfully, they didn't get to cheat their way to a ring.
Sept. 2, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Cheating is one way to look at it, and "gamesmanship" is another. You guys got played by a silly agreement that his its roots in silly things like courtesy runners.

Why can't senior ball be like other softball? To agree to letting a guy miss his turn at bat without being an out is absurd. Consider it a lesson learned, and blame NO one else for what occured.
Sept. 2, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
pete,i was talking with rob(curveball) and said they finished 3rd(mn team).
1) there are no special bats,they all conform to the 1.20 bpf(same as all assoc's were at one time).senior ball just never banned them,they didn't care what the other assoc's did.
2) safety plate,what part of safety don't you understand.your most severe injuries can occur on a play at the plate.sliding is not the prol,its collisions,which older people don't do well with.i will tell that i bet 50% of seniors do not slide.
3)4 div's so u are saying thats to many,ok young player div have 6 or so A-E, major, open.so your saying they have to many div and all should play only in one div.talk about teams dropping.
4)courtesy runner,hey there are some people who want to play but thier legs won't allow them to run the bases.now i do favor a mod for this rule as i do see it abuse in it.i think maybe once an inning so u have to plan it.

ok there it for you
Sept. 2, 2008
hitt2
354 posts
Dirty
If you don't like the senior game go play with the kids.
My guess they've become fed up with you also.
You don't like the senior bats use what you like, you don't like the balls buy your own. Identify your self and gain creditability, Oh I forgot this requires manning up! (no balls) You don't like the rules pick another sport, maybe needle point. You can bitch at your self for sticking yourself.
In NorCal we don't have a problem with the number of teams in a bracket. When we travel we make sure the event, by whatever association has been successful and the teams are coming. If something goes wrong so be it we still play.

I think it should be mandatory that individuals using the board to post opinions or thoughts acknowledge who they are. .
There are guys that donít post the info on who they are, but do so in their threads. This is positive as it allows for players to put a face with a name.
Iím still new in the senior program, and there are a lot of different tourneys out there I havenít thus far participated in. I like getting the info from the knowledgeable players like Einstein, Lecak, the wood, Softballer and don 5, Trumpball, Taits and others, but it gets old when one guy keeps focusing on one individual and his input never changes and does nothing to improve the game from his rants.
We as a group should be ignored him until he steps up.
Sept. 2, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I still do, at times, but as with all of us the options get more limited the older we get.

And God forbid if you really want to improve a game with very limited participation. Hmmm..........
Sept. 2, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Thanks for the update Bob - fortunately the chicanery did not pay off for them, but it did affect some of the standings. Hopefully they'll be less likely to pull this particular stunt any time soon.

C'ya in Dalton

Pete 13
Sept. 3, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Thanks everyone for responding. I think all the avenues covering this thread have been covered. Thanks again SSUSA for citing the governing section of the rules.

Pete 13
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