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Discussion: Rolling for distance

Posted Discussion
Nov. 4, 2004
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Rolling for distance
Hey there,

What's bat rolling and how is it done?
I hear it makes composites, hotter.
Nov. 4, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2647 posts
Shrimp17 on the Mohr board is the only one that I know of that does it. He has made a device that applies even pressure up and down the barrel. I think that it is better than vicing.
Nov. 4, 2004
armyho211
Men's 60
52 posts
5 questions come to mind, 1) is this considered altering athe bat? 2) if still in warranty, and it breaks,could the bat co tell that something has been done and refuse to replace it? 3) does it shorten the life of the bat? 4? how expensive is this process? 5) can the umpires tell the difference during a game?
Nov. 5, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
armyho211:
1. Yes it would be considered altering a bat. Any method used except for hitting a bat with a ball that increses performance would be considered altering the bat.
2. You would lose your warranty only if the manufacture inspects the fibers of the bat during inspection to see if it had been rolled or crushed.
3. It does indeed shorten the life span of the bat by quite a bit. Expect cracks within a few hundred swings.
4. cost is anywhere from 50 to $100.
5. no, an umpire would not have a clue, only under the big magnfying scopes that the manufacture's have could the fibers be looked at for this.
I am doing research for senior softball and will soon have the full effects of bat rolling charted out. We will know the full effects and if it takes the bat over the 1.2bpf or 98 mph test standards that we use in play today.
Bottom line is to play it fair and try to beat your competion with legal bats, feels much better that way. We played agaisnt cheater bats all year and i wont allow it next year as i will be forming an alliance with senior softball and will educate them all on how to find these altered bats with the new flex machines which are now for sale from the independant testing facilities.
Have a conciense here guys, what if you hurt some one with an altered bat, would it really be worth it???
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 +
Nov. 5, 2004
LOBO
Men's 50
39 posts
This message is for Mike Kelly.
I purchased an EVO a few months ago and have received different opinions about it. I like it for durability and it hits hard line drives. I have hit homeruns with the U2 but cannot seem to do so with the EVO. What do you know about the bat personally and what have you heard from others. Is there a breaking in period?
I play on a 50's team in Florida with a Major ranked team.
Thanks,
LOBO
LOBO
Nov. 5, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
LOBO:
Yes the Evo will only get better and better the more it is hit just like all 100% composite bats. The key here is that you said that you can hit hard line drives. The same swing with the proper cut or back spin on the ball under favorable conditions should lead to the long ball.
The 2 piece bats take some getting use to and i recommend that you go hit the Evo on a 300ft fenced field with good softballs maybe 50 to 75 swings a couple times a week to get the feel for lifting the ball with good backspin and just simply getting used to what the bat swings like and what it really has to offer you when you hit it just right.
JMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 6, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Mike, I hate to be a stickler but sometimes I just can't help it.

You said ""Yes it would be considered altering a bat. Any method used except for hitting a bat with a ball that increses performance would be considered ""

1. Does taping the handle increase performance by giving you a better grip?

2. What is the difference really between hitting 500 balls and hitting your bat 500 times with a rubber mallet?

3. What If I put a softball on a handle and pound my bat?

I know.....dumb questions but if you are going to be involved in making rules you need to anticipate them. You need to be PRECISE with you wording whenever you are writing rules.
Nov. 7, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Joncon:
1. No taping the handle is a preference that should not be considered altering. Now, some organazations won't allow more then a couple of wraps of tape as if you put too much then your changing the balance point of the bat. Manufactuers grips weight 1/2oz and they can hold you to a similar amount of tape on your bat.
2. Yes, hitting a bat with a hammer should be considered altering the bat for this simple reason.
Your whole intention is to increase the preformance by using the hammer and eventually that happens if you hit it long enough. I said earlier that Any method used except for hitting a bat with a ball that increses performance would be considered altering the bat.
Now the part about putting a ball on a handle and rolling it or any other undetectable method that one might use = yes it is all still using an abnormal method to alter the bat to increase preformance. Hitting a ball with a bat off a tee, off a pitch or even free hand is ok, that is normal ball usage, taping a ball to a handle and slamming away at the bat is not ok.
The most amazing thing here is that we finally have bats that are durable enough to use in batting practice sessions and you can break it in properly while getting your swings in as well. Why shorten the life of the bat with a shortcut when you can accomplish the same thing while getting some work in is beyond me.
Bottom line is that a lot of the methods used today are undetectable and if we dont see any outward appearance of altering then you passed test #1.
Test #2 is the one where we check the bat with the flex tester and if the barrel exceeds that particular organazations test peramaters then the bat will be confiscated for at least the duration fo the event.
There is a lot of details that will have to worked out and by next years qualifiers and worlds, you can expect that every bat intended for use will have to be tested first and given a stamp on the barrel so that it will be allowed in the event.
Again, this would make for an even playing field for all traveling teams who invest there money and deserve to get a fair shot at the worlds and would also make for a safer event.
More later
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 7, 2004
Bat-Heater
Men's 50
64 posts
I think I recognize the need to try and purge softball of all the perceived altered bats but broken in bats? I say perceived as I think the use of altered bats at our age is just a little overstated. I would still prefer to think that most players at our age play within the confines of the rules. Perhaps I am naive?

If altered bats are really as prevalent as tittle-tattle indicates then perhaps we need to think outside the box. e.g. don‚t let the players bring their own bats to a tournament. As an alternative, have the TDs provide about 6 bats or so in a variety of weights to each diamond. The TD‚s could have a higher entry fee to offset the initial investment and the players could reap the benefits in not needing to buy new bats all the time. And if someone hits a home run, the lingering doubt over whether that person used an altered bat is removed. Altered bat problem solved.

Financial savings: I know I own six or more bats & purchase a couple of new ones every year and that‚s just to keep up with all the different associations ever changing bat rules.

IMHO we are getting a little carried away with the interpretation of „altered bats‰ as well. Most of us know that bats improve with use and for me personally, for obvious reasons, would prefer a used bat to a new bat anytime. I would be rather upset if you flex-tested my nicely broken in unaltered bat during a tournament and found my bat exceeded the factories „new‰ specifications. Are there other motives here or are the factories „flex‰ and performance specification based on a well broken-in bat? One could easily come to the conclusion that the end users are being set up to have to buy more bats. It also becomes easy to envisage a near future where merchants will be marketing softball bats at tournaments to replace all the over-flexing bats with new.

p.s. If someone wants to bang away at his bat with a hammer the people or stores that sell the bats should be happy as that person will probably be buying a new bat a lot sooner.
Nov. 7, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Bat-Heater:
You have made some interesting comments and i will address them.
1. Allowing the TD's to supply the bats would take care of all the potential cheating that goes on but will never happen. You have up to 4 divisions and at the bigger events they use up to 12 to 16 fields a day, do the math and you have your answer for that one.

2. If you think that my wanting to sell bats and that this whole serious problem revolves around that = me wanting to sell bats, then you don't know me at all. One has nothing to do with the other.

3. Pay attention here as this is the real important issue.
What if we take your bat becuase it went over the associations peramerters and you know that you did nothing to the bat but hit softball's with it. Your recourse will be to have it sent in to the manufacture who will then inspect it and if they say it was not altered then guess what, they will be obligated to send you a brand new shiny replacement bat. If they find that it was altered and there is a long list of what makes a bat an altered bat, then i guess your argument will be with them.

4. I wont hestitate to say now what i have told customers on the phone and in person and those who know me know this is how i feel about it. Only an Idiot would hit a bat with a hammer. I have tried to teach for years now that the only way to break in a bat is with batting practice and by rotating the bat on every hit. that would behoove you in the long run way more then using a hammer. Now does that answer you question about the way i feel about you and your equiptment. I dont want my customers coming back for a new bat until they got there monies and or warranties out of the first one that i sold the,. I am only speaking for my store here as there are plenty of other stores that probably wish that you hit it with a hammer and come back for another one asap.

5. Bottom line here is how to stop the cheating by those who want to cheat and how to protect those from bats that are too hot even if they became that way under normal useage. That is the real issues here.

6. How prevalent is it. I went to 4 world tournaments in 2004 and without a doubt saw altered bats in 3 of them = Ultra's that were turned into freaks with new freak declas and shaved synergy's as well. Without new and stronger rules and a staff to enforce them, there was little i could do this year. 2 bats at 2 events were confiscated but no findings have yet to be posted????

7.. Nothing is written in stone yet but i will make all these recommedations and more at the senior softball summit in regards to next year.

Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+

Nov. 7, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2647 posts
Thanks for your imput Mike. When you attend the Summit I have another topic that I wish you would address, that of illegal players in the Major Plus class. I know of serveral players that live out of the allowed geographical area for a team. The opposing teams don't call the guilty team on this for fear of being labeled whinners.
The associations should ban all players on the offending team for a year for the first offense.
I am not talking about players that have asked for and received a exemption because there isn't a Major Plus team in their state. I am talking about players that don't/won't play for a local Major Plus team because that local can't afford to pay expenses. They instead play for another Major Plus team outside of the allowed geographical area that will pay expenses.
Maybe another solution would be to have another class of sponsored teams, call it Major Sponsored.
Nov. 7, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Mike,

""Only an Idiot would hit a bat with a hammer""

Only an idiot would make a statement like that.

I don't need an altered bat anymore than you do Mike but my superior intelligence make me curious.

I have done most of the things I have learned via message boards to break in bats including Corky's method of hitting it against a tree or telephone pole.

You have to be careful of labels and assumptions. You don't want to end up looking like a fool.

PS. My two favorite bats (Freak and Fury) were broken in the old fashion way by passing them around to everyone on every team and letting them hit softballs.

Nov. 7, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
BruceinGa:
I would be glad to bring it up as it is also a concern of mine.
Please email me at sales@kellysultimatesports.com with the names of the players that your refering to and the teams that they went and played on when they were not supposed to and i will have that assocaition look back at the rosters that was turned in for there event and see what they want to do about it. That is just another form of cheating as well.

I am also planning to bring up the fact that a certain east coast major plus team uses 3 different states to host from thereby expanding there peramaters to best suit there needs for different assocaitions.
I did not go to plano but i have a hunch that is the event that your talking about as i heard of some the guys from a different East coast major plus team playing with that other east coast team that i was referring to.
Let me know
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 +
Nov. 7, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Joncon:
Yes and only an Idiot would mention Corky who would be the first guy to show you how to cheat and how to break in bats with a tree or with a hammer. Just because corky is a miken rep does not make that action legal and has a matter of fact miken is more embarrased by corky's actions then you would ever know.
Put your superior intelleigence to work on that fact.
And i repeat wheater or not you like it,
ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD HIT A BAT WITH A HAMMER.
Is that loud enough for you to hear.
Now if you followed corky's advice, then you have him to blame for being called an idiot by me.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 7, 2004
Bat-Heater
Men's 50
64 posts
MK39 - What in the world did I do to you?

You said "Now does that answer you question about the way i feel about you and your equiptment "

I don't know you nor have I ever met you?
Nov. 7, 2004
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
MIKE: When the U-11 was starting to get banned, Miken came out w/ the EDGE & VELOCIT-11. Both bats were crap. These bats were given as trade in for the Ultra 11s. MIKEN & OTHERS made statements that these were good bats, etc. Well both the EDGE & V-11, should have never been made or sold. ANYONE THAT GOT ONE OF THERSE BATS, GOT RIPPED OFF. This was when bat "reps" were asked how to break in a bat. I got-traded 2 of each. For several months these were the only bats that I hit in BP. Even w/ good 47 cor. balls w/ 525 comp. & a 25 MPH wind behind me, I could not hit one out. Then I took 1 V-2, hit it against a tree stump, 40 times & the ball did start to clear the fence. About 350' was the best that I could hit a ball. The next day, in BP that bat broke. Hitting a bat w/ a rubber mallet or against a tree stump will sent that bat to the trash can real quick. The other 3 bats, I hit only in BP, when it is cold or wet. I have 12 legal bats & still own 2 U-2s.
Mike, things r still out of hand. As long as people r people, there will always be persons that think & act different. U & I can not change the way humans think. Mike, am I a cheat because I have several crappy bats that were sold to me as legal bats. Ones that I hit against a tree stump. Bats, that MIKEN & OTHER WEB SITES, stated r almost as good as the ULTRA 11? Do u think that MIKEN, will take back the EDGE or VELOCIT-11s? Again, Seniors have gotten the shaft from bat companies.
This SUBJECT will always be a losing matter. We can not change others. Nor, can we hope to change the way that some indivuals think. Unless a person has a need to change, that person will not change until they r ready! We can only act in what we believe is the right & proper manner.
As far as Corky, he seems to still be a good person. Maybe, thoughless @ times, but still a good person.
BAT-HEATER: MIKE,
Nov. 7, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Bat-Heater:
Your statement =
p.s. If someone wants to bang away at his bat with a hammer the people or stores that sell the bats should be happy as that person will probably be buying a new bat a lot sooner.

My reply =
I have tried to teach for years now that the only way to break in a bat is with batting practice and by rotating the bat on every hit. that would behoove you in the long run way more then using a hammer. Now does that answer you question about the way i feel about you and your equiptment. I dont want my customers coming back for a new bat until they got there monies and or warranties out of the first one that i sold the,. I am only speaking for my store here as there are plenty of other stores that probably wish that you hit it with a hammer and come back for another one asap.

Dont know why you took this personal but try reading it again. i do care about my customers and there equipment and i want it to last them as long as possible. i am trying hard here to show players that it makes no sense to hit your bat with anything but a ball.
Dont take it personal as it was not aimed at you unless your beating your bat with a tree or a hammer.
thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+


Nov. 7, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
STONEMAN:
Speaking again only for myself. i never did rate the edge or velocite 2 any where near the u2. They were and still are no more then medi ocre bats according to what else is out there. i decided to never re order either bat and sold very very few of either one.
I will explain bat altering that has been set forth by the ruling bodies of softball.

They all agree that anything outside of just hitting the ball with the bat in order to improve on the performance of the bat would be considered altering the bat.
hammer
rolling
vicing
tree's
shaving
end loading
different decals
and more to come as the real cheaters out there are thinking up new ways every day to improve the performance of there bats.
there is a line invloved here that seems to be crossed with some different excuses but the bottom line is that guys are either trying to get back that magic moment that they had with the u2 and it is going to be hard for most and maybe almost immpossible for others depending on how good they just really are but i am just saying to put in some hard work. use this bats in batting practice to figure them out and you will get close to where you were and you will still have your dignity along with your pocketbook.
JMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50-+
Nov. 7, 2004
Mitch
Men's 50
68 posts
After reading all of the comments here, it sounds like it's relatively easy to roll, vice or otherwies alter a bat. It also sounds like it's relatively hard to detect if this has been done to a bat.
If you put these two thoughts together, I think I can see the "handwritting on the wall". It won't be long before all assocations make "any" kind of bat illegal except for wooden bats. I think a wooden bat would be a lot harder to "alter". I don't think rolling or vicing a wooden bat would do any good so it sounds like that would alievate the problem by going to wooden bats only. I guess my point is, we need to police our own teams, leagues, orgainations or whatever, otherwise the "big" boys will and we probably won't like their outcome, maybe even wooden bats. Think about it guys, let's keep things legal and above board and play your very best in every game and no matter what the outcome of the game, you'll know you gave it your very best and did it legally.
Keep the faith.
Nov. 8, 2004
turn2
484 posts
hey MK39, at the summit you need to see if you can get these organizations to use some good balls at the world tournaments.we pay all that money and hit duds for balls. you are luckey to get 1 new ball per game. that is crazy.
thanks,
turn two
countrywide softball 55
Nov. 8, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Mike.

Only an idiot would call his customers idiots. Instead of having a customer who has purchased a half dozen bats from you and recommended you to dozens of people for you prompt and professional service, you have created an ex customer who will suggest they shop elsewhere.

If you are going to play a role in organizing senior softball you should learn some manners and tact.

Dale Carnagie's "How to Win Friends and Influence people" would be a good start.


Nov. 8, 2004
LOBO
Men's 50
39 posts
I agree with Mitch.

Am I reading all of your comments correctly in that Major Plus players wnat to alter bats to hit the ball farther?

I have not played a Major Plus tournament in the Senior Circuit so I cannot comment as to whether or not everybody on a Major Plus team can hit a ball over 300 feet. However, the U2 is so powerful I cannot imagine a Major Plus player not being able to hit the ball out. Hell, I am only 5' 11" and 210 and I can hit it out with a U2. Why would someone take the chance to be expelled at our age because they altered a bat that can make a ball go over 300 feet anyway?

Am I missing something? AM I the IDIOT?

IF YOU BANG YOUR HEAD AGAINST A TREE WILL THAT MAKE YOU SMARTER? I DON'T THINK SO!.

If you bang your head enough times against a tree just like a bat, eventually it will crack just like the bat. HELLO!!!!!!!

If you have to resort to altering a bat it is time to find something else to do because you can't be having fun playing ball. Me personally, I would rather lose by playing hard and having fun than win because I cheated.
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Joncon:
You only buy the bat from me, You do not Buy me.

I have my opinions and when asked i give them straight up. Whats the matter Joncon can't you handle the truth.

I will never sell out and become a politcaly correct person. I am going to give my recommedations to the political heads of senior softball and sit back see what they do with them.
No doubt they will be full of manners and full of tact and maybe just flat out full of it if they dont act on something soon to take care of this ever growing problem.

Too Bad you listen to Corky instead of me and decided to hit your bat on a tree or with a hammer, That was simply the wrong thing to do. The sooner you get over this denial thing and just admit it was your mistake for listening to the wrong person , the sooner you can move on.

As for me i am moving on right now .

Have a good one
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
turn2:
Some of them listen and some dont.

I recommended to the late and great Ken Mas to consider going from what he was going to use this year which was a 44/375 to going to a 44/525 and he did.

He thanked me at the managers meeting with a verbal regonition and a wink.

I will remmember him for thinking enuff of the players to make the change.

USSSA right now might have the best policy which is a 44/375 in cooler climates and a 47/525 in hotter climates. I will bring that up as well.

Thanks for your imput.

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
STONEMAN:
I talked with Miken a good 1/2 hour today about Corky and the way he mis leads you guys about hammers and trees.

Miken will be sending me a response in writing by tommorow stating there true beliefs on those subjects and i will post the letter here as soon as i get it.

You are a straight up guy and i know you personally, what corky did was wrong and he owes you and every other player that ever followed his ridculous advice an apology.

Take Care
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
LOBO:

I am with you, if these big time players can't get over the U2 and adjust to whats available now, then shame on them. I will hold my head high win or lose knowing that we played it square.

I can't say it enuff, Batting Practice and more batting practice will make you a better hitter. The bat is but a tool and most of the time it is operator failure not the bat.

I went out today and hit 3 different bats, new models for next year and had to adjust to each new bat all over again. This is a lot easier to do in bp then it would be in a game so we got bats built for durability now, hit them and figure them out.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
LOBO:

I am with you, if these big time players can't get over the U2 and adjust to whats available now, then shame on them. I will hold my head high win or lose knowing that we played it square.

I can't say it enuff, Batting Practice and more batting practice will make you a better hitter. The bat is but a tool and most of the time it is operator failure not the bat.

I went out today and hit 3 different bats, new models for next year and had to adjust to each new bat all over again. This is a lot easier to do in bp then it would be in a game so we got bats built for durability now, hit them and figure them out.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
T.Burk
48 posts
The discussion of altering bats seems to be more a discussion of semantics than of facts. To alter by definition means to change. Adding weight to the end cap would alter it. Hitting 500 softballs doesn't alter it, because there is no physical change occurring. Taking any bat removing original decals, repainting it, putting new decals to disquise it alters the appearance and is illegal. Hitting 500 47 core 525 compression water logged softballs to break in a bat might be foolish, but does not change the bat is not altering it. Placing and illegal end-load in a bat changes the bat the configuation of the bat and makes it an altered bat. Hitting it with a rubber mallet, bounching against a tree, rolloing (whatever that means), or vicing it doesn't change the configuration of the bat. In a court of law, the charge and therfore the proof of altering a bat would ultimately come down to showing how the bat congiguration has been changed. A bat that has been viced hasn't been changed any more by the vicing process than it would had someone taken the extra time to hit 500 + softbalss in practice/games. A bat the has been shaved or disquised, or end-loaded has been significantly changed thus altered.
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
T.Burk;
You was doing real good until the last part about vicing =
A bat that has been viced hasn't been changed any more by the vicing process than it would had someone taken the extra time to hit 500 + softbalss in practice/games.

I just got off the phone with Miken sports a few hours ago and not only will they void your warranty for vicing of there bat but they also as well as i do consider that an obvious bat altering technigue which is dsigned to enhance the performance of the bat by other means then hitting it agaisnt softballs.
Put your finger in that vice and tell me it did not change the configuration of your finger a wee bit.
Problem here is that the message of batting practice is your best friend keeps getting lost here by wanting to take short cuts.
Lets see, you vice your bat, hit it and see that it is much better now. You think that you better be carefull with it now or it will crack soon = yes it will. so you stop using it until games, trying to milk it all you can for each precious hit before it breaks.

Too complicted for me as i am still using mine in bp and games and i am not worried about a thing knowing that the integrity of my bat has not been comprimised.

Complicate it or simplfy it all you want but the bottom line is this
right from the Miken web site

Bat Alteration Prohibited

Miken does not approve of or authorize the purchaser or any other person to physically alter the bat in any manner for use in any game under the jurisdiction or sponsorship of an association or organization that has set standards for the performance of bats. Any alteration of the bat will nullify Miken‚s limited warranty. Furthermore, should injuries or other damages occur as a result of any use of an altered bat, the person who altered the bat, along with the player who knowingly used the altered bat, may be held liable for such injuries or damage.

Do not clean metal spikes or hit anything other than intended game balls with the bat.

The part about anything other then Game Balls should should spell it out for you a little bit better.

Have a nice day
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Mike

""I have my opinions and when asked i give them straight up. Whats the matter Joncon can't you handle the truth.""

You are certainly full of yourself aren't you? Everyone should feel free to express their opinion but what makes your opinion the truth?

PS. Can I nail a game ball to a tree and hit it?


Damn boy, you are certainly full of yourself aren't you.
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Joncon:
if i said something that was not true, please say what it is.

If you need to nail a game ball to a tree and hit it, then go right ahead, i asked corky and he said it was ok.

Have a nice day

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
MIKE: The last thing I want, is to see someone lose their job. When I talked to Corky, Corky, informed me, just what I could do to the EDGE & V-2, in order to make these bats preform better. I was standing w/ several men that were in their late 60's to early 70's. These men traded in their good bats for crappy EDGEs & V-2s. I was also told that by doing this, the bats would not last as long. That this was altering the bat. @ the time, I had several better bats, but, my ego & I still like to be able to pick up any bat & see the ball fly over the fence. THANK & HAVE A NICE DAY !!!
Nov. 8, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Well this has gone south somewhat. First I would like to say to GT I am sorry for last year's rant on his percentage number. He may have had a valid point.

Second, I learned this weekend and yes what I am about to say is true that all of us softball players are using altered bats. There is not one of us that is legal period. According to this man who is involved with a well know association who hates any bats that perform once you unwrap the bat from its plastic cover, take off the NEW grip installed by the factory, tape the bat and or bat knob, use a cone, chip the bat, or use tape, paint or any thing else to allow you to know which bat is yours you have altered the bat.

You see altering a bat can be many things to many different people. Mike has a point but still no one addresses the fact that we have players getting factory bats with factory loads that are out of specs and nothing can be done about it. When they get the new model they sell off these bats thus others get the bats.

No one wants to talk about the fact that the best bat doctors in the game are the R/D guys at the bat companies. No one wants to talk about how these guys tell others how to fix the stock bats and thus people buy bats unknownly that are altered. When is this going to stop?

I would suggest that those who beat their bats to break them in faster are not our problem. Those bats will not last very long and after a few $1000 spent people will stop doing that. I would suggest the problem is those who paint bats, get factory painted bats, (Oh yeah there are plenty of those), use factory bats no one else can buy, or have customed made bats.

I have said this before if you want to stop this stuff then force the factory's to stop first. They produce more of these out of spec bats than anyone else and these bats get out to the public. Why is it fair for factory players or teams of players to be allowed to use these bats and no one else? Why does the hammer come down on those who try to even up the field by doing something wrong (I know two wrongs don't make a right but people are getting tired of getting beat up by the first wrong) and not on the factory players or teams?

Here is what I purpose. Well all nut up and enforce this ourselves. If you have a player on your team using a painted or factory bat then stop it. If we don't stop it then the cost of the machines that check these bats will end up being paid by us. If we don't stop it then we will have to have a bat police department. If we don't stop it then this issue will sooner or later divided senior softball and in the end that will be bad for the game. JMHO.
Walk
Nov. 8, 2004
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Wow and thanks to everyone especially Mike for all the info.
If we stay at it long and hard enough
we'll work it out.
Maybe a Bat FBI with one member from each team.
Maybe 3 bat vetos per team to be used at any time during a game.


Nov. 8, 2004
Walk
192 posts
I am sorry for the back to back thing but I want to make one last point. I do not care what anyone uses. If an altered bat is what some people need to use then fine. I will never say anything unless someone questions my bat. This happened this past weekend and the funny thing about it is the team that protested was using 5 factory bats and two painted bats. Once I told them to have my bat checked or they could buy it as long as the favor was returned the smarta$$ remarks stopped. This all stemmed from the fact I got lucky and hit a couple of bombs out of BLD Parks to dead center.

If you are going to use a illegal bat then at least be smart enough not to say anything. Just because some of us can still hit the ball a long ways does not mean they use illegal bats. Anyone can buy my bat any time.

Also MK is very passionate about softball and senior softball. He really has its best interest at heart. MK only wants the game to be fair but I am afraid that unless he can get the factory's to stop their abuse of factory bats this shall never come to pass.
Walk
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:
Welcome Bro, where you been. This is really getting good here. You of course know as well as i do that the manufactures are the original cheaters and there are still a few to this day that still does it. There might be only 1 guy in the senior softball program that is important enuff to them to squeek out a special bat and that would not even be a composite bat. The manufactures are not a big problem in senior ball like they are at the A and Major levels of slowpitch softball. Now the manufacures offspring = Bat Doctors and there techniques are the big problem. They are supplying and teaching all interested parties in the " how can i make my bat Ultra 2 like" because they are having withdrawl symptoms ever since the bat came and went for the most part leaving them feeling the need to do whatever it takes to get back that advantage they had for a minute when they got to swing the U2.
Example = My team gets to swing the U2 in nor cal tournaments all year long and man do we love it. Then we go to Fl. for the USSSA and let go of the U2 2 tournaments in advance and start to work with freak pluses. We go to Fl. with a new bat and take 2nd place.
We spend the next 2 weeks swinging the original freak pre paring for Des Moines and take another 2nd. Next weekend in or. 1st in the ASA. Finish the year in vegas with U2's and squeek out another 1st. 4 Worlds, 3 different bats and pretty good results = why. Because we put in the batting practice with the other bats as well and figured out what we could do with them compared to the U2.
I am proud as hell to say that all our bats were supplied by me, never left my possesion and had my kelly's sports logo on them meaning that i would take full responsibility if challenged.
Yes we played agaisnt teams with obvious altered bats and did out best to overcome that handicap but we never lowered ourselfs to there level, we never cheated.
Long story but true and i say it over and over again and Walk you know this to be true. Batting Practice until it hurts is what is needed more then messing with these bats.
JMHO
Good to hear from you Bro

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:
Welcome Bro, where you been. This is really getting good here. You of course know as well as i do that the manufactures are the original cheaters and there are still a few to this day that still does it. There might be only 1 guy in the senior softball program that is important enuff to them to squeek out a special bat and that would not even be a composite bat. The manufactures are not a big problem in senior ball like they are at the A and Major levels of slowpitch softball. Now the manufacures offspring = Bat Doctors and there techniques are the big problem. They are supplying and teaching all interested parties in the " how can i make my bat Ultra 2 like" because they are having withdrawl symptoms ever since the bat came and went for the most part leaving them feeling the need to do whatever it takes to get back that advantage they had for a minute when they got to swing the U2.
Example = My team gets to swing the U2 in nor cal tournaments all year long and man do we love it. Then we go to Fl. for the USSSA and let go of the U2 2 tournaments in advance and start to work with freak pluses. We go to Fl. with a new bat and take 2nd place.
We spend the next 2 weeks swinging the original freak pre paring for Des Moines and take another 2nd. Next weekend in or. 1st in the ASA. Finish the year in vegas with U2's and squeek out another 1st. 4 Worlds, 3 different bats and pretty good results = why. Because we put in the batting practice with the other bats as well and figured out what we could do with them compared to the U2.
I am proud as hell to say that all our bats were supplied by me, never left my possesion and had my kelly's sports logo on them meaning that i would take full responsibility if challenged.
Yes we played agaisnt teams with obvious altered bats and did out best to overcome that handicap but we never lowered ourselfs to there level, we never cheated.
Long story but true and i say it over and over again and Walk you know this to be true. Batting Practice until it hurts is what is needed more then messing with these bats.
JMHO
Good to hear from you Bro

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:
Welcome Bro, where you been. This is really getting good here. You of course know as well as i do that the manufactures are the original cheaters and there are still a few to this day that still does it. There might be only 1 guy in the senior softball program that is important enuff to them to squeek out a special bat and that would not even be a composite bat. The manufactures are not a big problem in senior ball like they are at the A and Major levels of slowpitch softball. Now the manufacures offspring = Bat Doctors and there techniques are the big problem. They are supplying and teaching all interested parties in the " how can i make my bat Ultra 2 like" because they are having withdrawl symptoms ever since the bat came and went for the most part leaving them feeling the need to do whatever it takes to get back that advantage they had for a minute when they got to swing the U2.
Example = My team gets to swing the U2 in nor cal tournaments all year long and man do we love it. Then we go to Fl. for the USSSA and let go of the U2 2 tournaments in advance and start to work with freak pluses. We go to Fl. with a new bat and take 2nd place.
We spend the next 2 weeks swinging the original freak pre paring for Des Moines and take another 2nd. Next weekend in or. 1st in the ASA. Finish the year in vegas with U2's and squeek out another 1st. 4 Worlds, 3 different bats and pretty good results = why. Because we put in the batting practice with the other bats as well and figured out what we could do with them compared to the U2.
I am proud as hell to say that all our bats were supplied by me, never left my possesion and had my kelly's sports logo on them meaning that i would take full responsibility if challenged.
Yes we played agaisnt teams with obvious altered bats and did out best to overcome that handicap but we never lowered ourselfs to there level, we never cheated.
Long story but true and i say it over and over again and Walk you know this to be true. Batting Practice until it hurts is what is needed more then messing with these bats.
JMHO
Good to hear from you Bro

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 8, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Mike says: "if i said something that was not true, please say what it is."

The obvious one is "only an idiot would hit a bat with a hammer"

If you would learn to preface statements like this with "IMO" there could be no debate. When you offer up your opinion as factual it is just wrong.

Bruce, EVERY good debate goes a little south now and then.
Nov. 9, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Joncon:
But that is my opinion.
That is how i feel about it.
We could for you tone it back because you went to the Corky's Paul Bunyan school of chopping down tree's with a bat if you like that better.
Your an interesting guy and it seems that you would rather that i sugar coat with manners and tact my answers so i dont insult you. Are you the kinda guy that prefers an outright lie as long as it is sugar coated first or would you rather hear the truth no matter how rude it comes accross.

I made that statement in an answer to Bat-Heater who thought that has my being a store that i would be glad to see people hit there bat with a hammer so they would come back and buy a new one sooner.
He asked for my opinion and got it and i think i made it very clear where i stand on the matter,

Look Joncon, you have called me an idiot 2 times and only if you hit your bat with a hammer or tree does my reference refer to you.

Last chance, i will give ya a draw, otherwise next time you come to this gunfight you better be armed with more then = mike you are a rude dude.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50=
Nov. 9, 2004
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
ok i've heard enough,
first how is hitting a bat with a hammer,tree,nailed softball to a club,rolling any different for break in of a bat. IMO they all do the same thing as bp and thats what we are looking for right.not one of these proceedures give the bat any more pop than the other,including rolling.i can agree mike that the bp method is better for the person for the practice.
secondly on this machine thats going to test flex, your are telling me that if i break a bat in even the way u suggest with bp that i can lose it. to me thats going a little to far IMO,especially after i have paid good money for it,i don't a new one and have to go thru the process again.
Nov. 9, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Joncon:
But that is my opinion.
That is how i feel about it.
We could for you tone it back because you went to the Corky's Paul Bunyan school of chopping down tree's with a bat if you like that better.
Your an interesting guy and it seems that you would rather that i sugar coat with manners and tact my answers so i dont insult you. Are you the kinda guy that prefers an outright lie as long as it is sugar coated first or would you rather hear the truth no matter how rude it comes accross.

I made that statement in an answer to Bat-Heater who thought that has my being a store that i would be glad to see people hit there bat with a hammer so they would come back and buy a new one sooner.
He asked for my opinion and got it and i think i made it very clear where i stand on the matter,

Look Joncon, you have called me an idiot 2 times and only if you hit your bat with a hammer or tree does my reference refer to you.

Last chance, i will give ya a draw, otherwise next time you come to this gunfight you better be armed with more then = mike you are a rude dude.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50=
Nov. 9, 2004
Walk
192 posts
I have been awol for awhile bro but I am looking for a job and spend most of my time doing that.

I understand that one person or maybe two are lucky enough to get factory bats. But I would still like to see that change. I would suggest there could be more and they are being very quiet about it. I met two this past weekend in CA.

As far as breaking them in during BP that is the way to go. You get the pleasure of BP and you get to learn your bat. You know bro how I feel about the shaving and end loading of bats. To me this is a mute point because they don't last long enough to be a problem. If I used one of those shaved bats they would not last me 100 swings. Hell I cannot get a stock bat to last me very long so why waste the money.But the painting of bats now that is a problem. That to me is the real concern here and that needs to stop.

I would also say that I am a little worried about this new machine. If NIW bats are failing that test then I can see major legal problems from this. I guess I am old fashion when it comes to this. I still believe in hard work as a way to achieve glory not a paint job. I will however still never say anything about what anyone else uses unless provoked. I actually believe we as players can take care of this problem but then again I am a little naive when it comes to this game.

I am not one of the top 100 hitters in senior softball but I work hard and I can say that my meger achievments have been achieved through hard work and not a painted bat. Isn't that how it is suppose to be? I am all for swinging the best bat made and I believe the Ultra and U2 should still be used. If they were then this discussion would not be necessary.
Walk
Nov. 9, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:
You know it will end up not mattering as much as where they got the bat as long as they have it and intend to use it.

The flex machine will weed out the bats that are too hot anyway.

The bats that have been decal changes = ultra 2 into a freak will be caught has well because there is no decal that will exactly match miken's commercial grade decal.

There is many ways to alter a bat and while some appear to not be as obvious as others it is all intended to achieve the same emd result = a hotter bat by an illegal method which is any thing short os hitting the bat with a ball.

My next post will be a direct letter from miken showing how they feel about everything that we have been talking about.

Take care
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 9, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Miken's response to what is considered Bat altering:

-----Original Message-----
From: mike [mailto:sales@kellysultimatesports.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:23 AM
To: Jim Hoscheit
Subject: my email


Please send me a letter confiming that miken does indeed consider a bat altered and would void the warranty if any of these methods are used

hitting agaisnt a tree
hitting with a hammer
viceing
rolling
shaving
changing loads
thanks
Mike Kelly

From: Jim Hoscheit
To: mike
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: my email

Miken Sports does not approve of any alteration of bats which includes, but is not limited to "bat doctoring", vicing, rolling, hitting objects other than approved balls , and any other action that is designed to change the character or performance attributes of the bat in any manner." These actions will void your warranty on any Miken bats. It states „hitting objects other than approved balls‰, will void your warranty. This includes, but not limited to trees, hammers etc.

Jim Hoscheit
Vice President of Sales & Marketing
Miken Sports
Toll Free: 877-807-5291 Ext. 114
Fax: 507-725-8296
Website: www.mikensports.com

Nov. 9, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Miken's response to what is considered Bat altering:

-----Original Message-----
From: mike [mailto:sales@kellysultimatesports.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:23 AM
To: Jim Hoscheit
Subject: my email


Please send me a letter confiming that miken does indeed consider a bat altered and would void the warranty if any of these methods are used

hitting agaisnt a tree
hitting with a hammer
viceing
rolling
shaving
changing loads
thanks
Mike Kelly

From: Jim Hoscheit
To: mike
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: my email

Miken Sports does not approve of any alteration of bats which includes, but is not limited to "bat doctoring", vicing, rolling, hitting objects other than approved balls , and any other action that is designed to change the character or performance attributes of the bat in any manner." These actions will void your warranty on any Miken bats. It states „hitting objects other than approved balls‰, will void your warranty. This includes, but not limited to trees, hammers etc.

Jim Hoscheit
Vice President of Sales & Marketing
Miken Sports
Toll Free: 877-807-5291 Ext. 114
Fax: 507-725-8296
Website: www.mikensports.com

Nov. 9, 2004
alohabruce
Men's 50
31 posts
I fully agree with my bro Walk and MK39 about breaking in bats. The best way is through BP and not only will you break-in the bat as well as getting used to the feel of a particular bat. For those of you that don't take BP, you'd be surprised how much you can improve as a hitter if you did. I'd rather take BP then play a league game. I'm also lucky that I have a friend that play's for the Old A's that will always take BP with me.For me bat's are too expensive to even try breaking in any differently which will definately shorten the life of a bat. I'm like MK39 in that I don't believe in using an altered bat, but I'm like Walk in that I don't care what bat the other team uses. There are so many altered bats around that I'm not sure how to stop it.
Walk, even a stock bat doesn't last too long in your hands.
Nov. 9, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Mike.

""Last chance, i will give ya a draw,""

Something tells me that is far as I will get in THIS pissing match. If I can't get the win I guess I will settle for the draw. It is against my killer instinct but I"m gettin old.

See you in AZ next year.

John
Nov. 9, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
AlohaBruce.

There is no question that the BEST way to break in a bat is with BP.

The debate here was, should it be illegal to use any other method.

I am with you as I don't really care how someone breaks in their bat.
Nov. 9, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Joncon:

Good deal. It is not worth you and i getting at each other while the real cheaters sit back and think that they are invisible.

We will get them next year if they bring the real bad bats out again = decals, painted, shaved, etc.

Miken is more concerned more with the effects of rolling and vicing but did still send word that tree's and hammers are a no no as well.

No hard feelings and i will see ya in Az. next year.

What about Reno or Wash. next year, i will be at both.

Take care
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 +
Nov. 9, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
alohabruce:

Hey Brutta, have not seen you in a awhile. how ya been.
Thanks for the support and it is a real sensitive subject but one that has to be dealth with.

I use to only care about the heavy duty bat altering = decals, shaving, end loads, etc. but i will soon be nominated for the bat altering commitee and that means that i will have to look at all of it has wrong, just the way it has to be.

gonna be tuff love next year but those who play it straight should have nothing to fear at all.

We will be in fremont next weekend, you going to be there. let me know
Good talking with ya.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 10, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Ok a friend of mine saw this thread and had a question and it is a good one in my opinion.

What happens if senior softball adopts the machine to test bats and they test bats NIW bought from a sporting goods store and the bat fails? I do believe that will cause all kinds of problems. Like the fact that someone just spent $300 NIW and cannot use it. What recourse would this player have?

I know this happened at the USSSA super this past year and I could not answer this question. I would think someone would have to pay for this other than the player. It is not his fault if he buys a bat from a dealer and the bat is still NIW and it fails.

I mean think about this. Guy shows up with NIW bat does the test and the bat fails. Now in order to play he has to go buy a new bat and hope it passes or borrow a bat from someone else. I know I hate to borrow bats because I tend to break them. Looks like to me this guy is SOL and he was legal all the time or he is out twice the money.
Walk
Nov. 10, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK;

60 Bats were confiscated at the USSSA Major in orlando..
Roughly 15 players were given an option of a 1 year suspension and there bat back or simply let USSSA keep the bat and they got off with a warning. Not 1 player was suspended.
If a NIW bat was confiscated, 2 things come to mind knowing that these are the guys who get factory bats anyways.
1. it was a players model and should not have been there either in a wrapper or out of a wrapper.
2. It was something other then what it appeared to be = decal change, looking new and anyone could put a plastic shrink wrap on a bat. hell, you can take it off a new legit bat and slip it right over the other one.
Not too many open players can be trusted, and very few manufactuer's can be trusted.
Those are just possibilities.
No normal bat from a store should be like that , no bat bought out of retail should fail in the factory shrink wrap paper. I would know the difference had i seen the bat and the wrapping if it was a legit claim or not.
JMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 10, 2004
alohabruce
Men's 50
31 posts
MK,

I'm doing fine spent two weeks in Australia recently. Watched your team play at the Creek a couple of weeks ago and was told that you were moving your store that weekend. Because I didn't play too much last year, it would be too much of a pain to find a team for my brother and I to play on so I think that I'll retire. If you know of any team that needs a really good outfielder they may want to consider my brother who's fast, has a good arm, hits for a high average and also has alot of power. I would honestly say that he would do well in 50 Major or Major plus.
Regarding Walks' question, wouldn't it be possible to buy a new bat that wouldn['t meet the test? We all know that some same type of bats are hotter than other's out of the wrapper.
AlohaBruce
Nov. 11, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
alohabruce:

I know that Miken checks all and i mean all bats one at a time with a flex machine and documents it by the serial number exactly how it left there factory to protect themselfs. That being said and me seeing them do that when i visited there factory last year, i would say it is a safe bet with Miken in the wrapper. Walk did not say what bat it was and uless the other manufactuers are as good with there quality control as miken = ???.
I am working on getting my flex test machine. i have thousands of bats in the wrapper. i am going to be putting the squeeze on a lot of bats soon, new and then every 100 hits. We will beat bats in breaking to see where then end up. We will then hit them 100 times, have it rolled and recheck the flex, we will do that every 100 hits until it breaks, same with vicing. I will soon figure out what will take these bats beyond the test standard and will then have a much better feel for whats really going on.

Yes we did expand to a big huge store. The guys played well and mark did a great job running the team without me.

Looks like we mightr be the only Major plus team out of ca. next year and i already am up to 18 players and coaches. The rebels might be in the hunt for a few good men, also check with Brownie, he said something about a new major team for next year.
Good luck to you and your bro
Take care
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Nov. 11, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Mike,
If I remember right it was Wally's and it was a Freak Plus but I am not for sure on that one. I also heard a couple of Synergy Pluses fell into that problem.

Only reason I ask is because if there was one bat that Miken missed or one bat that was NIW and would fail I would be the guy who had it. I have no luck and what luck I have is bad.

Also you need any help in beating those bats up I hope you know I will help. Last thing make sure you test the bats that are now coming with an end load. I am getting reports that those bats are better than the ones that are balanced.
Walk
Nov. 11, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:

Please be more specific about which exact bats are now more end loaded then before to check????
Nov. 11, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Mike,
The new Combats are for sure. I understand the Anderson Composite will be. The Freak 98 and Plus are at the heavier weights. The Blur is especially the non ASA bat and the new red Worth composite and their new PST line.
Walk
Nov. 11, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:
Utrip bats have always been able to be more endloaded. N
Nov. 11, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:
My bad hit the enter key.
Utrip bats can be made with a serious end load.
ASA bats can not be made as end loaded.
so, the utrip only bats will be end loaded as they dont have to worry about asa standards.
Thanks Mike
Nov. 11, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Mike,
Bro I know that my point is the end loaded bats will break in quicker thus making them hotter faster. If the test is set for just a certain standard then you will have some problems.

Let say I use a balanced bat and an end loaded bat same make same model all year long. I take both to a world where both are tested. I am told one will fail and one will not and the only thing that has been done to the bats is normal use.

I am told the end load will fail this new test from this machine most of the time if it is well used. Now my question is: Is that fair? I say no and I trust you will take that into consideration when you put together all of these tests. I know you will but I just wanted to give a heads up. Because an end loaded bat with about 50 swings left on it before it breaks is at its peak and its peak is a lot better than an balanced.
Walk
Nov. 11, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
WALK:
The USSSA bats also have the higher rated bpf1.2 test compared to the newer toned slower ASA test.

While i agree that the end loaded bat has a slight edge in performance if all other things are equal = The shell or barrel is the same, I think both bats hit by the same player with equal amount of hits would be pretty close in the final overall reading.
Afterall it is the shell or barrel being hit that determines how much it is broken in.
There is a lot more research that has to be done , meaning hitting these bats in submission to see where they really end up but one thing i know has always been true and that is a bat 50 swings before it either cracks and goes dead has the most pop it would have ever had at that point.
I will spend the next 6 months doing bat research and testing, etc.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 +
Nov. 11, 2004
alohabruce
Men's 50
31 posts
Mike,
Thanks for reminding me, Brownie did tell toward the end of summer that he wanted my brother for his new team if he gets it going.
Nov. 22, 2004
socal52
Men's 50
12 posts
I usually just sit back and smile at the bull that goes on here.. but this is about as stupid ad it gets.. do you really think that the SSUSA or other senior Orgs. are going to spend $$ to tell if a bat has been broke in by rolling,BP ormallet?? if they due there idiots just like some of the crap that is been said here.. remember your own career that you've played since you started playing softball! If you said you never tried to break in a bat faster with home remedy's back in the old days your just lying to yourself.. and you can get on here and play the holyer than thou .. but you know deep down.. Sounds like were getting to be JUST ANOTHER ASA money and more money, my best hitting bat (has a hairline crack) U2 but will it pass on these "NEW" machines?? Its stone stock but with alot of use..You take my bat and make it illegal for a game or a tournament.. I will sue everyone attached to that Organization.. not a threat just a fact! Bat Companys and Sales are making the money and probally have a percentage in the testing gear.. Lets play ball with the players wish's and attitudes in the forefront..leave the great game of softball fun and pure as it can be!!
Nov. 23, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
Heh heh, I just can't help myself....

""I will sue everyone attached to that Organization..""

What are you going to sue for SoCal....emotional distress?

THINK before you post. You are not going to sue anyone.

Your portion of the entry fee is 40 bucks and your bat is worth a buck fifty (used).

I should sue you for being a bonehead and gettin me all riled up.
Nov. 23, 2004
The Pro
81 posts
There is a lot of nonsense on this subject all of which will go away if they just "married" the 44/375 ball with the Ultra II (for seniors)like the SSUSA. No need for Bat testing machines, confiscations, altered, shaved, end loaded, painted, rolled, hammered, etc....bats.

The Associations created a "Monster" by banning the Ultra II in the form of numerous new "bat doctors". In fact the Ultra II put the few who did exist at the time all but out of buisness. Now we are forced to devise inane ways to "protect the integrity" of the game all because the governing bodies of softball percieve the Ultra II to be less safe in other orgaizations than it is in SSUSA!

One final point in response to Joncon, to have your bat taken from you during a tournament and imply that you are "guilty" of something "illegal" is tanamount to "defamantion of character" and "slander". If the bat turns out to be "legal" a lawsuit for those reasons is indeed in order. I have already checked it out and have a signed statement from an attorney as to it's validity.
Nov. 23, 2004
socal52
Men's 50
12 posts
Joncon your the perfect example of what this board is coming to..someone who spouts off and says as you say Bonehead remarks without thinking what was trully being said! If I got you all riled up GREAT at lest your thinking now! like I said it would"t be for the money but my intergrity and others who could be harmed as a player and a person.. thanks PRO and I have also checked into this with a Lawyer friend of mine, and guess what your right on!! So Joncon let them take your bats and whatever else they want to but for gods sake don't let that get riled up!
Nov. 24, 2004
Joncon
289 posts
""Joncon your the perfect example of what this board is coming to""

Yeah it's terrible aint it?

Sorry but it just seems funny to me, checking with a lawyer and all.

It WOULD make a great Judge Judy episode though. Some old guy going up against another old guy for insinuating he was a cheater.

There is enough REAL BS to deal with in life. Let's not make up problems.

On a serious note, you need to lighten up a little and have some fun. We are almost done with our time on earth. Have some fun.

"They can take my bat when they pry it from my cold dead fingers"

John
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