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Discussion: Out at the plate

Posted Discussion
Sept. 11, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Out at the plate
I just got a call from Terry Henessey
saying that I was ruled ineligible to play
with the 50 Major MOB in Phoenix this year.
He said because I played in a 50 major plus tournament
with Mac 2 in Reno
I would make the MOB unfairly better this late in the season.

Now you gotta know that I'm flattered as hell
at 61 with a torn up leg that prevents me from running at all
to be thought of in any lethal capacity on or off the field
but the reality is that Terry made the wrong call.
Maybe 2 years ago I would want to have agreed with him
but it's certainly not the case, today.

At LVSSA, a couple of weeks ago,
I played for the same MOB team in the 50 Major
and there were 3 teams that were clearly better than us
all of whom should be in Phoenix along with many other potentially better teams.
Evolution, Goodman Racing and a MONSTER Gekel squad from Lansing
all were better.
Truly.

So, just like in a game
the ump, Terry in this case,
got a call wrong.
After telling him he got it wrong
there's not much left for me to do but to put my bats away
and think about next year.

Have a good tournament and
I'll see you all somewhere down the road.
Sept. 11, 2008
Mango
Men's 50
92 posts
Hey Joey,
Does that mean that MAC II is not going to Phoenix?
Mango
Sept. 11, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Dave,
As far as I know they are going
but they're pitcher/manager, Mike Clary
has returned to the line up
and they won't be needing my services.
I was amicably released by Mike
to play with the MOB but
alas, to no avail.
Sept. 11, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Let him play!!! Let him play!!! Can we stop micro managing everything. Let the players and teams play where they want, if something is obviously out of whack, then step in, but not before!
Sept. 12, 2008
Norq44
58 posts
I agree, let him play. Softball is still a team sport, and one man does not make a difference. He is playing down two age brackets, and he has already played for MOB this year previously, and I didn't hear of any complaints then. Let him Play!
Sept. 12, 2008
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
INSTEAD OF BANNING JOE, YOU SHOULD MOVE GEKLE UP TO MAJOR PLUS!!! I PLAYED AGAINST THEM FOR A FEW YEARS BACK IN THE MIDWEST AND EVERYONE SAYS THEY SHOULD BE MAJOR PLUS. JOE WHO ARE YOU ALLOWED TO PLAY WITH NOW??
Sept. 12, 2008
hoppie
Men's 55
10 posts
Hey einstein,
Were you ineligible to play with the MOB, or with any team?
Sept. 12, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The MOB, Hoppie.
I'm fielding some current offers from the Co-ed one legged 65's who have been granted
an exemption player with mustache and wild hair.
I'm pretty sure a player has to be "qualified" to play in the Phoenix tournament
by having rostered/played in a prior event
which limits things considerably.
And I have developed some needs along the way.
My entourage must come and be provided for which includes
grandma, my 20 year old diabetic cat
and the Stoneman.
And lots of senior discount coupons for those early bird specials.
Sept. 12, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
CRUSADERVB- I'm pretty sure from reading Mr. einstein's first post that he has not been BANNED from anything. The decision, agree or not, is that he won't be allowed to play for the MOB. And I'm a little confused about the relationship of letting Mr. einstein play for the MOB and moving Gekle up a notch. Did you mean moving the MOB up?

From what I hear from our manager, having ssusa not let a team add a certain player this late in the game is a pretty common occurrence. Loading up just before the Worlds shold be prohibited instead of encouraged.

The decision was apparently because of what Terry thinks it would do for the balance of power in that division. I hope Mr. einstein finds a place to play in the 60 major plus. Mr. einstein, my offer to introduce myself in Phoenix still stands and I hope you're here. Meeting me is not at all importsnt, but finding a place for someone to play who wants to is very important. Good luck.
Sept. 12, 2008
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Joe:
If it makes you feel any better, I also got a call yesterday from Terry telling me I could not add a player to my roster because he had played on a Major Plus roster for the Mavericks, IN 2007!!! This player has not played an inning of softball since April of 2007, has had knee surgery AND surgery on his toe that prevented him from wearing a shoe for months. He was a utility player on the Mavericks, good hitter, but never the type of player that would give a team an unfair advantage in the major division. He was supposed to be on our roster but has been on the DL for 18 months.
It's another case of Terry oversteering the boat. We have to move to a system where the players actaully decide these things. One czar cannot possibly have enough information to make these decisions. Being on a M+ roster does not confer super human powers. We all know there are a handful of superstars who truly are difference makers, but not the whole friggin' M+ roster. In our case, the M+ brand is keeping a good player off the field just because he played on an M+ team in 2007. Ridiculous !
If Major Plus was merged back into Majors these stupid decisions wouldn't even be on the table. Take the new M+ rules, apply them to Majors, and voila, no more 2 team or one team tournaments for the M+ boys. Check the results of the major SSUSA events this year in the 50's to see how few M+ teams participated. Both the West and East championships had only ONE 50 M+ team present.
IMHO
Don Newhard
Manager - Evolution 50 Major
Sept. 12, 2008
Walk
192 posts
Tate and Einstein,
Welcome to my world. I had knee replacement surgery this year and have not played anything above league this summer and that only started in Aug. I have not played in the SSUSA for two years now and only one tournament with the Mavericks last year the SPA Worlds and the manager of the 50+ Major team here is KC was told he could not add me to the roster even though I have been on the rosters all year.

I will be able to play 60+ next year and I am wonder why I should spend the money to renew my card if this is the type of stuff I will deal with every year that I try to play. I tried to tell my coach at the beginning of the year that I would never be allowed to play Major ball and had I not had the Knee replacement surgery and been able to play I bet the KC barrons would have been forced up to Major Plus. So enjoy the retirement list guys because it is really no fun.
Walk
Sept. 12, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
einstein:
Unable to find "MOB" or a team listed in 50 major to see if conflict of "area" were a problem. (knowing you I doubt it) I'd say†one person is and will now be a problem for Major and M+ players to play on other tams. Here are the "rules" and new rule to take effect for them.
4.2(7) Major-Plus Player Restriction
Major-Plus players may only play on Major-Plus or Major teams. Players who have no Major or Major-Plus team in their region OR
players who are determined not to be Major-Plus caliber by SSUSA may request an exemption in writing. ROSTER RESTRICTIONS Ė Teamís home state plus bordering states, Snowbirds prohibited, and one (1) out-of-region exception player allowed per team, using East/West of the Mississippi River boundary. [EFFECTIVE DATE: November 1, 2008, to prevent disrupting current
rosters for the 2008 World Championships in Phoenix]

We will forever be limited by something, someone, or some entity in this game we love dearly. And this is called progress. : :> (
I'd be careful about that cat, in your pursuit, a player my be allergic...
Sept. 12, 2008
Sisavic
138 posts
I support Terry's interpretation of the rule. A team is rated and invited to the Worlds based upon it's performance in qualifiers or regional tournaments. It would be unfair to add players from upper skill levels so late in the season. No 2 cents.

Here's a question for those of you who profess that (in my words) "I'm not as good a player as I used to be (injured, older, etc.) and ought to be able to play on a weaker team." Would you agree to a maximum batting averge, number of home runs, or whatever if allowed to play down?
Sept. 12, 2008
the wood
1087 posts
Don, I am not sure that I agree with your feelings about the potential merger of the major and major plus divisions... I am not sure that I don't either.
Over the past few years, the major plus divisions have been growing (50, 55 & 60)... I isolate on these 3 because I have no framer of reference for the others. This has been a poor year, no doubt, but to say that this is totally correlated to the rule changes is premature. Recognize that just because I was on the task force doesn't mean that I will automatically oppose any criticism directed its way.
First of all, when were the rule changes made known (was this before or after some of these events were booked for given teams)? Has the cost of airfare been a factor? Have there been other events that conflicted with the events you mentioned (same or close to same dates)? I'm sure that there are other factors worthy of consideration.
Regarding the potential merger... is this really as easy to do as you seem to indicate? Evolution is clearly an upper level major team (if not a major + team) and it can compete well in the 'blended division'. How many 50 major teams could say the same? You know that division more than I so this wasn't a rhetorical question.
I personally am open to any discussions about this subject. We haven't appreciated the lack of teams in 2008 events any more than anyone else. But I'm not certain that it is totally linked to the rule changes.
IMO.
BW
Sept. 12, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
765 posts
Matt Fahring is a very player, who played hurt for 3 years. Just because he played part of a season with the Mavericks does not make him an impact player in the major division. Matt has never been listed as an impact player at any time in his career. Again not saying anything negative about Matt, I would welcome him on any team I play on. I would believe the revamped Master Collison Team is closer to Major + than Evolution, different age groups, but same principle..
Sept. 12, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Woodiy,
I'm with Don and Tait on this one.
In NorCal, to keep our league competitive even though some
of the entrants are major plus tournament teams
Gary Tryhorn and the NorCal board put in a couple of rules
that insure competitiveness despite having a team with more
power hitters.
Run rule for innings and equalizer for home runs.
These rules are already in effect for SSUSA and will go a long way
to ensure a base hitting team like Windy City from Chicago
can compete with a long ball hitting team like Mac 2
(they beat us twice in Tulsa).
Sept. 12, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Terry,
There's two kind of calls umps make when we play.

There's the ump who stands behind the plate
sees everything from the same perspective all the time
and given this can end up very far away from potentially important calls
especially in the outfield.

Then there's the other ump who comes out from behind the plate
and gets as close to every meaningful situation on the field as possible
sees much more and makes his call.
He's comfortable from what he has seen and experienced on any play
to make a call irrespective of any other call.

The second ump is never argued with Terry.
Because he's there.
He sees it.
He doesn't have to govern by platitudes or should be's.
He's connected and "gets it" and no one can complain.
Solomon would have made a great softball commissioner,
wouldn't he.

Walk,
I've been aware of your situation some 4 years now
when Mike Kelly started Kelly's and we tried to get you on the team.
It has NEVER made sense to me
why you have been and still are prohibited from playing.
Sept. 12, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Does everything have to become a public cause?

I will admit I don't get why a guy would be prevented from playing with one team in particular, but it sounds like not all others. Kind of sounds like competitive engineering to me. But must everything be for public comsumption? What for the greater good is to be gained?
Sept. 12, 2008
the wood
1087 posts
Joe, we have gotten off the subject somewhat (of your original post). You initiated this thread, so if you're ok with it, swell.
I don't necessarily disagree with either of you. I'm open to any dialogue that will expand the upper divisions as long as it doesn't create a competitive imbalance.
But let's not jump to the conclusion that the problem with the 2008 major plus divisions (50-60)...
1) is largely related to the rule changes...
2) can be remedied by lumping the major and major plus teams together. I do feel that there are many major teams that are able to compete particularly if we were to 'back track on the rules' some (HRs, runs/innings, etc.).
We had 7 guys on the task force. Not all of them agreed on every point and there were some that did express their views in a similar manner to Tate22.
Again, this committee was created in June. The first national that most of us attended was in mid - July (SPA - Tulsa). Was the number of teams that were there related or unrelated to the formation of this committee (and the possible rule changes)? My guess is that it was unrelated as SPA had been attracting these numbers in the past.
I can be a vocal supporter of a potential merger but only if I'm hearing something really concrete that favors it... from the teams' standpoint. As it now stands, it's hard for the assns to make $ on our divisions for all of the reasons mentioned many times before. My current posture is based upon my fear of burying the lower major teams.
I recognize that the NCSSA is one of best regional assns around. I've heard this from too many folks to ignore it and I know that Gary T is a very strong organizer. But it isn't a perfect microcosm of the national scene because of the travel issues and the difference in numbers (of teams in each division). What works there will not necessarily work nationally.
In my view, we first need to adequately determine the underlying reason/reasons for the lack of teams in the major plus events. Once this has been done, we can then look for possible solutions.
BW
Sept. 12, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
A few off the wall comments on a great topic thread.

Mr. einstein - Hope you hook up with a major plus team and get to play. Playing is the gift we have been given.

Walk- Looks like you are good to go next year as any Major plus team's one out of region player from that team's side of the Mississippi River.

taits- The Arizona Mob is the eleventh team listed on the 50's section of the Team Ratings link on the left side of this page. They are based in Tucson and are rated Major.

sisavic- I agree with you. Simple as that.

the wood- The Task Force stuff doesn't affect us, but thank you for the effort. This is what the Major plus teams want and they got it. Hopefully it isn't a case of unfortunately getting what you asked for and not liking it. I'm in theory (because I don't play in either) opposed to merging the Major plus and Major just becasue of a sense that the talent gap is too wide top to bottom. Would much prefer to see your new Major plus rules be attractive enough to have the upper end teams in Major volunteer to move up to that type of game to meet the challenge and play a more wide open offensive game.

Dirty- This is the perfect issue for public comment, excepting maybe yours. Commenting on every topic isn't required here. Sit on your fingertips if you don't like this being a public comment thread.

Mr. einstein- The ump you mention made the call. It went against you, as calls do occasionally against all of us. I would think Terry is "in position", since he and his staff see every team, see every score in their tournaments and talk to a lot of the people in the divisions affected. I still want you to play, but I tend to agree with not allowing a last moment roster cange to a team that most seem to think is pretty good to start with. This is the type of oversight I appreciate because it is made in the best interest of all of the teams in the division, except maybe the Mob. I hope you play. Major plus.
Sept. 12, 2008
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Joe:
You hit the nail on the head. Having rules for a combined Major/Major plus division that allow more than one type of team to win will solve far more problems than it will create. WIndy City is a perfect example of a great team that wins with balance.
A tremendous amount of energy is wasted every year defining who is and isn't a M+ team or player. Nobody, including Terry H., really knows and trying to quantify it misses the point. By micromanaging this question teams end up as the only M+ team at an expensive out of town tourney, and great players like Walk end up on the sidelines. Another reality is good Major teams stay away from SSUSA tournaments for fear of being bumped up. All of those outcomes are far worse, IMHO, than having a combined M/M+ division with rules suited for multiple styles. No solution satisfies everyone, but this one will benefit the most amount of teams and players at these levels.
Respect to all;
Don Newhard
Evolution 50's
Sept. 12, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
DG, go and look at all the recent threads and see what a small percentage of them I have posted in.

And personal business does NOT have to be commented on publicly. Nor do the public attacks on Terry.
Sept. 12, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
BW; I'd think the main problem is the numbers of associations putting on tournaments almost each and every weekend somewhere. All the choices given and locations to choose from. And there are only 52 weeks in the year.

DG; thanks for the name

Dirty; Thank you.

As long as there in no working together amongst the assn's I think the few team in and div\age bracket will remain a problem, I also feel none will like giving up any "share" of a pot to help solve the problem either. Too many "proud people" out there doing that, "they feel," is right over to the possibility of what is right for the overall senior softball community.
Not saying it will not come about, but everyone, do not hold their breath.
They (assn's) work fairly well during the summit have solved some issues, but giving up territorial tournaments is another story.
Sept. 12, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
taits, well said. Too many tournaments and too many divisions and age groups lead to the small brackets that is the biggest problem in senior tourneys. But you are probably correct that no one is going to want to give up their piece of the golden goose.
Sept. 12, 2008
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
Einstein, most of us could only hope to be an impact player at 61. ;-) The only thing that I read in your favor though was that you played with the team in the LVSSA which is part of the Summit. I have had many dealings with Terry and his staff, and while I do not always agree with their decisions, I have found them to be fair which is sometimes much more important than hustle in an umpire. Being fair and good judgement go a long ways. An umpire can also get too close to a play to be objective. It is better to somewhat close with a good angle and then set to make a call. That being said I wish you the best of luck because we only have so many years in which to play.

NSA folded their upper division a few years back partly because of all the controversy. I am a firm believer in less rules than more. I do know that there are very few tournaments for either Major or Major Plus to play in. We have been very lucky here in Indy because we seem to have one of the few qualifiers in which this division grows every year for the last 4 years. This year we had 12 teams consisting of 50 and 55, Major and Major Plus. Since this is a qualifier, and our umpires are not all experienced in seniors, I put the same rules across the board. I thought about changing that for this group even though no one has ever complained. I have asked many players over the last couple of years, and they all said that they were having fun. Now how often do you hear that at this level of play? While I am not suggesting that what we do is the answer, the number of teams keeps growing which means it must have some merit. We hold them to 5 five runs per inning and make all homeruns doubles to keep anyone from having too unfair of an advantage either way. This keeps there from being a big difference between Major or Major Plus, and teams actually play rather than run up the scores and eat up the clock. Do I think that they should be combined? Probably. I would not like to see these teams suffer a loss of their division as we had in the upper NSA. I guess that I am for anything that advocates what I have seen many times at SSWC, "For the love of the game."
Sept. 12, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hi Nancy,

Thanks for the thoughtful and complete response.
It sounds like we're taking from the same side of the fence
when we limit home runs and runs per inning by appropriate rulings.

I wish I was an impact player at 61 with a bad leg.
It's just not true anymore.
And my point is that anyone who's seen me play
or asked about my play
the last 3 or 4 tournaments would be aware of that.

Yes, I didn't use the LVSSA argument enough and
I think you're right about it's significance.

Lastly, though I love your following the umpire analogy
with regard to administrative decisions
I must argue that hustling shows/proves to the players
that first, the ump is involved and cares
which shields him from many kinds of challenges
and second that being closer (think more involved)
rather than farther away from any call
is almost always better in determining the truth
and is perceived as such.

Nancy, you're the bomb.
Sept. 12, 2008
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
And thank you. I get a lot of exercise umpiring and joke that I am making up the boy's averages as many of our umpires seem to be more into quantity than quality of their games. I also know that when a guy that is my junior is running to first, and I am pretty close to him when I make the call that he is probably in trouble anyway. I enjoy officiating and since many games are "one man", I definitely get the miles in. What makes me mad at myself is when I get too close, or I do not get set and make a call on the run. These instances sometimes cause bad calls. I like to believe that my best quality (and sometimes my worst) is being fair. Oh, well, does anyone ever please everyone whether it is between the lines or real life? Hopefully we can talk about it after a game someday. I am on my way to the park now though. Out here.
Sept. 12, 2008
Walk
192 posts
Joe I would think the LVSSA would be a good argument in your favor because what was used to make the ruling on me was my participation in the SPA tournament last year 2007 the only tournament I played in.
Walk
Sept. 12, 2008
green rocket
51 posts
Joe, the real bottom line is you are being denied a chance to play the game you love so dearly, one more time before the fall/winter comes around. Being an umpire, this is one call I'm glad I do not have to, or would wish to make.

You are a fun guy and a class act.
Sept. 12, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Nancy and thank you all for all your support.
I don't know all the particulars but the MOB manager,
George "the Magician" Robinson
just called me to get on the plane to come down and qualify
for Phoenix after a phone call he had with Terry H.
Something about a first born male child
and a plague of Biblical proportion but I didn't quite get the jist of it.

Thanks, Terry, Dave, Fran et al.
I'll see you all in Phoenix.
Sept. 12, 2008
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Joe:
Congratulations on winning your appeal, we'll see you on the field in Escondido at 11:30 tomorrow. Unfortunately, my second request to bring in our guy coming off of 18 months on the DL was denied by the same powers because he'd been on a M+ roster in 2007. It figures, if they were dealing in biblical terms with you, they would have to deny Evolution!!!

Life goes on, let's play ball!!

Don Newhard
Evolution 50's
Sept. 12, 2008
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
Joe you are too old to play 50's anyway. Heaven forbid a 61 year old cripple should be playing down to 50 Majors. What are you thinking? LOL Play On Old Guy
Sept. 13, 2008
BigLou
26 posts
I donít get it. The MOB who finished higher than Evolution in Vegas is allowed to add a guy who played Major plus this year while Evolution is not allowed to add a guy that played major plus in early 2007. I have seen both players involved (Einstein for the MOB and Matt Fahring/Evolution) and both are good players but one was a role player 18 months ago and one was a starter on a major plus team 8 weeks ago. Evolution is getting hosed here.
Sept. 13, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Big Lou.
Fundamentally, you're right on.
We played Evolution today and they beat us
in San Diego and I met, saw, pitched against Matt Fahring.
First, he's a great guy.
Second, he wears the biggest knee brace I've ever seen
and I've had 2 knee operations.
Third, he's a good player and complements the personality
and capabilities of the Evolution bunch seemlessly.
All to say, Terry,
he doesn't tip the balance in the way you are and should be concerned
about anyone loading up for Phoenix.
Please reconsider Matt Fahring's situation vis a vis Evolution.
Ask any of the players, coaches and TD's
who were at the tournament.
I'm sure you hear the same thing.
Thanks Terry, Dave and Fran.
You guys have really shown up as being responsible and in touch with us.
Keep up the good work.
Sept. 14, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Big Lou not sure how well you know the MOB team, it has been a tough year to say the least. we have several teammates hospitalized during the season with major health concerns including one who lost a foot. Joe came aboard at the right time and according to the rules. I can't speak for the whole team but the "young infielders have adopted Joe. As a matter of fact Joe is learning a whole new language right "Spodey". I may be wrong on this front and I'm sure Joe will correct me but I think he has found a home also. I played against Matt also yesterday and hope he gets to play in Phoenix. There needs to be some sort of for lack of a better word a hall pass given to those players coming back from a major medical event. I personally have witnessed it numerous times the goal of playing again being a major benefit to healing, I'll include myself in this personal study. The hard work involved with rehabbing needs to rewarded. I hope SSUSA reconsiders.
Sept. 14, 2008
BigLou
26 posts
LECAK
Donít get me wrong here. I think you should be able to pick up Einstein for any of the reasons you mentioned. I just think if thatís the case Evolution should be able to pick up an equal or less equal player. I also think it would be a good idea to let all major and major plus teams pick up a limited number of players (say 2) prior to the last tournament of the season- the big SSUSA final in October.

There are always a number of justifiable reasons for this, I think the biggest being that your team folds and isnít going to the SSUSA final and you want to play ball. I remember in competitive softball teams were frozen but they could have a couple of ďaddsĒ up to a certain date before the World Series. Would like to see a similar rule in Senior ball. Would increase participation (teams might not go because they have injuries, now they can fill in etc.)
Sept. 14, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Have to agree totally with Tate 22. Combine Major and Major plus. If a Major team is deemed to have a little more skill than most, then put a "plus" by their name, give them a bit of a handicap and let's play ball!
Sept. 14, 2008
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
I thought Evolution was bumped up to Major+ after winning a tournament. Why are they now Major?
Sept. 14, 2008
F.O.G.
Men's 40
105 posts
Lecak, George & Steve: It was great to see you guys yesterday. Your team looks great and I'm sure you will do well in Phoenix.

Einstein: I should have introduced myself. We'll meet next time.

George: remember....50 in 2011!!

Take care all,

Mike Williams
Sept. 14, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Because they are not a Major plus team. Let them win the Worlds at Major before they have to move up, not before.
Sept. 14, 2008
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
Unfortunatly, that's not the way it works. Let me get this straight.
They won the Southwest Classic, Rockin' Reno and the Western Nationals and are still Majors? Ridiculous. Teams have been bumped up for and they haven't won anything.
Anothe fine decision by TH.
Sept. 14, 2008
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Jawood, he's been moving teams up all year that haven't won big tournaments. If he feels like it, he will.
Sept. 14, 2008
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
And I forgot to mention, they played Major+ in Salt Lake.
Sept. 15, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
765 posts
The number of teams in each of these tournaments were 4 or less. All of the teams in these torunaments except 1 have added players.
Sept. 15, 2008
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
DBax:
You are correct that my team, Evolution, was re-classified in early June to 50 Major plus. In our two years of existence this has happened both years. We have utilized the published, official SSUSA process both times to appeal these rulings. This year, as well as last year, our appeal was accepted by SSUSA (Terry H.). I did not utilize this forum to complain to the masses about our situation as don't believe my team's issue needed to be a cause for everyone to chew on. After being reclassed in June, we played two more SSUSA events as a 50 M+ team. The results in those events formed the basis of our appeal, as is required. We also received unsolicited, but unanimous feedback from our friendly rivals in 50 Major that went "no offense, but you are not really a 50 M+ team". We, of course agreed. Most importantly, Terry H. and the SSUSA staff showed us that they would listen, follow their own guidelines, and make a decision they felt was best for the game and the organization. All we asked was that they listen, and they did.
If they ruled against us, we would still have showed up as 50 M+ in Las Vegas and Phoenix. Same thing with our request to add a guy to our roster who was going to play with us all year but was hurt. Whatever they say, we will accept. In conclusion, if M+ and M are combined, none of this would be an issue. Let's play ball!!

Regards;
Don Newhard
Manager - Evolution 50's
Sept. 15, 2008
the wood
1087 posts
Don, do you honestly feel that combining the two divisions will totally eliminate the re-classification/ player addition problems?

Also, are you going on record to state that your team will be open to being lumped into the major/major + divison?

Where would you 'draw the line'? Would all of the current major teams be moved up? Or would you arbitrality split that major division and put the 'lower major teams' in AAA?

While I have asked this of Don, I would be interested in anyone's opinion on this... that is, anyone that is currently playing in M+, M or AAA. If you do feel the urge to reply, please include the name of your team and your current division... and why you feel as you do.
Thanks,
BW
Sept. 15, 2008
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Bob:
Yes, I would be willing to play in a combined M/M+ division providing there was some type of limit on runs per inning/home runs. I advocate 7 per inning with last inning open/ 7 HR's/one-up/singles after HR's gone. IMHO nobody 50 and over needs to be in the field for 45 minutes watching a bomb fest in a three inning game.

No, I don't think it will solve every problem with rosters, but I think it solves far more than it creates. My perspective is limited to M/M+ because that is all I've played for the past six years in senior ball. Current rules in M/M+ result in 2-team tournaments for M+, and a number of teams avoiding regualr season events for fear of being bumped up to a division where teams are scarce. Players branded as M+ have limited options, even though very few players are truly impact players head and shoulders above their competition. Those are two unfortunate outcomes of current rules, they limit participation and competition.

I understand your concern about borderline AAA/Major teams. My suggestion is let them stay in AAA, with a similar approach to borderline AA/AAA teams. Four divisions is too many at 50, and way too many in the subsequent age levels. You and I played 10 years in 40 & 45 ASA with only one level. Plenty of participation, competition, and no crying about moving teams up. I'd still like another shot at Maroadi's from PA, wouldn't you?

Thanks for stimulating the conversation. See you at the ballpark.
Don "Larry Tate" "Chicken-legs" Newhard
Sept. 15, 2008
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
Don, thanks for the explanation. Back to the origins of this thread. The rules are in place to prevent teams from loading up before the Worlds in October. Now TH has opened up a can of worms by allowing "Einstein" to play, and ignoring his own associations rules.
Now other teams are wondering why can't they add players too. If TH is going to make this a case by case decision, he should not have the rule to begin with.
The rule has nothing to do with being an impact player or not.
Sept. 15, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Dave,
Your premise about loading up is right.
It shouldn't be allowed.
But Terry deciding each case independent of others
is a positive step as it humanizes and individualizes each situation
looking to see if putting on a player is in fact, loading up or not.
It's a new testament vs old testament approach and it/he's right on.
It's more work for Terry but shows his involvement and care
in wanting to get each call right just like a good umpire
or judge would do.
I say way to go Terry, Dave and Fran
and keep up the good work.

And I agree with "chicken legs" on combining major and major plus
limiting runs per inning (5) and using a home run equalizer, only 1 up,
starting at the first home run.
Sept. 15, 2008
the wood
1087 posts
Joe, you're advocating that the HRs would start (right from the get go) with the 'one up' rule. Would it be a single or out (when hit at the wrong time)?
Either way, this is a helluva departure from your earlier posture.
I have to ask a personal question of you... how come no one ever sees you and Don King at the same time?
BW
Sept. 15, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bob,
That guy you ran at me in San Diego asked me if I was Don King,
you devil.
The thing Don King and I have in common
is the desire to make up new wordies.
It's actually very soulful and comes from the fundamental desire
to see/put rhythm and meter into language where it sounds and feels like
it belongs.
I'm a Motown kind of guy, a lot of my teammates and adverseries can attest to
the best music, the Music of the 60's, ever.

What I favor is letting guys hit the ball out
without penalty whether a homer or single.
This keeps big guys from wanting to drive the middle
which can help keep pitchers like me from wearing softballs.

Ideally, there should be 2 divisions but in reality
we don't have enough teams in Major plus to make it work.
So, I'm in favor of combining just like Tater man says.
Did he tell you he won our game with him in San Diego
with a walk off home run against me?
Sept. 15, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
I'll save space here and just say "ditto" to Tate22 from Evolution. I seem to agree with him 90 percent of the time!
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