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Discussion: Wny "no-warranty"?

Posted Discussion
Oct. 2, 2008
udaplaya
91 posts
Wny "no-warranty"?
Sometimes i look back on "accepted norms" and wonder how they ever came about. In this instance, I am wondering how Seniors, who are a pretty shrewd consumer group, have allowed bat manufacturers to successfully market "non-warranted" bats. Think about it, we purchase a bat, use it how it is intended to be used, and when it is either a) defective, b) was not designed properly, c) built with substandard materals, etc., we are the ones left holding the bag. Obviously, bats that have been modified, altered, abused would void the waaranty.

Is our pursuit of the next hot bat so important that we overlook quality issues that we would not allow to exist in other consumer products - plasma TVS, cameras, tires, etc.?

I have read all the hype about the new Senior Combat, but must ask, why do they not stand behind their product by offering at least a one year, and not just a one bat, warranty?

Food for thought.
Oct. 2, 2008
Wes
Men's 65
311 posts
I unserstand your ??? But let me ask you what do you want a warranty on?????
Do you warranty for one year and someone who plays
alot of ball might hit 1000 hit in a year and it braks on the
1,000 hit after 364 days.
The next guy put's it under the bed and does not use it
for 366 days and he takes it out and on the first hit it breaks.
How do you prove that it was a bad bat,material, design, etc. ??
It's like the old wood bat's they break, most of the time
you would say I did not have the grain up and go get a
new bat---true the wood bats did not cost $200+
Wes
Oct. 2, 2008
tattooball
620 posts
Combat and anaconda sports stands behind the bat from a manufacture defect point, end caps etc...

The senior market is a very different market, you use the hottest bats you can. Hotter bat tend to break easier. Both miken and Demarini tried to put out a 300.00 1 year warranty bat for seniors with no sucess.

Dale Earnhart drives a chevy lumina race car but chevy doesn't give him a 100,000 mi warranty, but if you buy a factory lumina you can get a warranty.

The line between performace and durability is a very fine one, and it is very diffacult to have both with senior bats. If anyone finds the answer you will be very sucessful in the market.
Oct. 2, 2008
udaplaya
91 posts
Thanks for the feedback.

To the first post...most (not all) consumer warranties are tied to a lenght of time, as for most items there is not easy way to measure "use". So yes, the warranty would cover all cases, except abuse,etc for a period of one year, for example. Although this may sounds ludicrous to Senior softball players, the fact that some legal bats are not warranted surprises many of my non-softball friends.

To the second post...this sounds like a perfect opportunity for you and your company to step up and be market leaders. Then again, if the current state of affairs fits your business model, i am sure you find no need to change - the current price point of approximately $200 and no-warranty has been determined to be the best business decision from a profitability and risk management perspective..fair enough.

i do find it interesting (If i read between the lines in your message), it seems that a high performance bat (like an Ultra II, Combat, Launch) and a warranty are mutually exclusive entities - i.e., you are admitting that your design,material, specs sacrifice durability for performance and that you have taken a "let the buyer beware" attitude. Once again, that is your prerogative and i am sure your bat's continued popularity supports the decision.

By the way, the Chevy analogy is off point. Chevy would give DEII a warranty if he did not modify, alter, abuse the vehicle, so his decision to disregard its intended use voids the warranty. We, as softball players, use these bat exactly for what they were intended, and if they prove to not withstand the durability test, we bear the financial burden.

Thanks for giving this some thought, not meant to put you on the defensive, as you and your company are great supporters of senior softball. By the way, i do own two gray Combats and hope to purchase on of the new gear bats before Phoenix.
Oct. 3, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Simple answer. Would you rather pay $300.00 with a warranty or $200.00 without a warranty.

Why should I pay and extra $100.00 so you can have a warranty on a bat, which I would probably never use.
Oct. 3, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Sadly, senior players are sheep. Why else are there so many associations running tournaments with little meaning that guys will still go to?
Oct. 3, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
756 posts
I cannot speak for other companies, but I can tell you about one company (which will remain nameless) philosophy regarding bat technology. Pricing is based on returns and durability. Bats with a return policy are designed to last 3500 to 5000 solid hits without failure. All bats will improve performance after a specific number and type of swings. For the average league player this will put the bat beyond the return period and still maintain customer satisfaction. Manufacturers plan on 10 to 18% returns those bats with a $300 plus cost the return rate is 25 to 40%.

For the high performance bats, defined as those bats which reach maximum performance level very quickly, the bat life is between 1000 and 1750 with no return policy. Based on this philosophy, if the hitter wants a HPB that gets maximum performance quickly, then the Senior Bats are the way to go. Ultimately, Senior Bats do not hit the ball further than some of the USSSA rated bats, but the break in period is significantly less. Considering Senior Player normally to not hit with the same force and frequency as do the more youthful players and supposedly have a larger disposable income, it is a decent trade off.

Each player is different and thus performance is affected by the type of bat utilized, their type of swing and the size of the bat / batter correlation. IMHO the two greatest factors in bat durability are:

1. A 215 lb batter is swinging a 26 or 27 oz bat. Common sense implies there is a point of diminishing returns. You bat weight should correspond to your physical size. If you can maintain bat speed, then swing a bat as heavy as possible. Itís simple Physics. Google - The Physics of Baseball, excellent articles related to the Physics involved. Dr. Robert Adair, no relation. Just my luck not related to anybody rich or famous.
2. I see too many players using their game bat in batting practice. Once a bat has reached their maximum performance why would you swing it in batting practice. Considering the ratios previously listed, you are putting yourself in a position that you will need at least 3 bats each year. Instead by a ASA rated or cheaper bat that has the same bat and swing weight and use it in batting practice or pregame warm up. I always bat first in batting practice; I do this for two reasons. Nobody wants to go first and the balls are dry. If they are dry they are at their lightest weight. Heavy balls break more bats than anything else. Of course the trade off is the pitcher is usually not warmed up so you donít see as many good pitches. Bottom line Ė Homeruns donít count in BP, I want to be impressive between the lines not in warm ups.

Sorry about the wordy response.
Oct. 3, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
You can worry about being "impressive", so of us are just concerned with winning.
Oct. 3, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
^^^should be "some" of us^^^
Oct. 3, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Mike,
The comment following your post is nothing
but negative and disparaging and trying to goad you into a fight.
This guy can't carry your jock, Mike,
no matter what others have to say about it, do or don't do about it an
he presumes to be good enough to be mentioned
in the same sentence as you.
Not a snowball's chance in hell.

You're a great player and a better guy,
a senior softball stalwart and a great representative for all of us.
Thanks for all the first class info on batting and bats.
Oct. 3, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
756 posts
Eistein, I appreciate your comments, however I would rather focus on constructive and viable dialoque. Diatribe and goading is just a waste of my time and effort. Good Luck in Phoenix, probably will not see you, we are at a different park.
Oct. 3, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"einstein", he might very well be a great player, so might you. But the truth is winning is MUCH more important than be personally "impressive". Why else did God invent scoreboards, and standings?
Oct. 3, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
MIke/Joe

Along with the fragility of the bats & the heavy balls I also notice most do not rotate their new bats during the "break in" period of BP. Although some bats have a less than desirable life span there a a lot of guys causing themselves extra pain/expense by not doing this one simple thing especially if coupled with a wet/heavy ball situation. I agree, I also want to be one of the first to hit for that very same reason.
Oct. 3, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Dirty, Mike doesn't know me but I have played against him a number of times recently as a few weeks ago in Escondido, the best thing I can say about someone is that they are ferocious competitors. Einstein is a teammate of mine and both of these men are ferocious. I had an old high school coach who didn't care if we won or lost, but after the game he did not want anyone yucking it up after a game. The goal was to make the other team just glad their beating was over whether they won or lost. Mike and Einstein are competitors like this. Win or lose you're just glad the beatings have ended. When Mike and Joe come to the plate bad things happen man bad things. Give this one a rest you're dead wrong.
Oct. 3, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Hey Pete how you doin. The old guys in town make me hit last all the time. I feel like the geeky kid in the old dodge ball games we played as a kid. Kinda like oh alright but make it quick.
Oct. 3, 2008
sjuhoops
123 posts
Yo Geek. You're lucky we let you hit with us(haha)
One of the OLD guys
Oct. 3, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Hank I got a feeling I'm not going to be hiting tomorrow.
Oct. 3, 2008
sjuhoops
123 posts
Joe may i suggest you do not hit last tomorrow. Just a little advice from one of the OLDER guys
Oct. 3, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Hank what you got some sort of radar on your computer you're dormant for like months one little slip of the keyboard on my part and now I'm fighting for BP time. What you need water, gator ade, a bagel?
Oct. 3, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
756 posts
Next time you guys are around introduce yourself. We are playing at Yorba and Peralta in Anaheim this weekend.
Oct. 3, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
If your referring to me might be tough live in Vegas. I play for the MOB we played you guys in Escondido a couple of weeks ago I'm the tall skinny 1B with the clean shaven head, I didn't wear a hat that day. Several of the MOB knew you when I asked your name, I remember you when you played with the Mavericks. We're at Papago in Phx and who knows for the Winter worlds in Vegas. I'll make a point to introduce myself even if your referring to someone else in the post.
Oct. 3, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
756 posts
Thanx for the clarification. I like to put names and faces together, you can never have too many friends. :-)
Oct. 3, 2008
sjuhoops
123 posts
Thanks Joe. how about a poppy seed, toasted with light butter and red gatorade. you can pick me up at 8:15. Also please make sure the gatorade is chilled
thanks
the OLD guy
Oct. 3, 2008
sliplayer
Men's 60
70 posts
Joe, I know your not going to get ANY pitches to hit.....I will take a blueberry bagel.
SLi
Oct. 3, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Oh Boy -

If I had known I could have started earlier for St George, stopped in LV and hit with the "old" guys too !
Oct. 4, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
not sure what way i would go on this one.first i don't break a lot of bats(of course that siad, i just broke my gray combat,good thing i have 2 left,1 gray and 1 red).most of the time they last me around 2 yrs or so,so i guess for me no warrenty would be ok.i break them in,and they go back in the bag for games only.i try to hit first on days ,or morning when the grass is damp.they usaully let me as i do a lot of the bp pitching.i no hit first = bad bp pitching :):).
hey pete when ya gonna be in st george(i'm there the week of 13-17 oct).
Oct. 4, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Bob - On my way now for the upcoming week. I was going to be there both weeeks but that is a long stretch with too much down time so opted for one.

Joe - Just remember to respect your elders out there. Have the latte's, doughnuts, cookie platter, and fresh fruit bowls ready on time for them. Have fun - Pete
Oct. 6, 2008
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
JOE......ISTEAD OF BRINGING BAGELS AND SPORT DRINKS TO THOSE ''OLD GUYS'' YOU SHOULD BE TAKING METIMUSIL AND GERITOL FOR HANK AND IMLAY
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