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Discussion: How to Fix the Tournaments & Rankings

Posted Discussion
Nov. 7, 2008
DCPete
228 posts
How to Fix the Tournaments & Rankings
1) Combine Major+ and Major into the "Upper Bracket"
2) Combine AAA and AA into the "Lower Bracket"
3) Track each team's Winning Percentage in Double/Triple Elimination games throughout the year
4) For each tournament during the course of the year, divide all Upper Bracket teams entered into 2 equal groups, e.g. Gold & Silver, based on their Year-to-Date winning %.
5) Do the same thing for the Lower Bracket
6) Each tourney will then have the same number of teams in all 4 groups with all teams playing against other teams with similar tournament results for the year
7) Exception: Any Lower Bracket team that wins 2 or more tourneys in the Gold group during a calendar year, gets an instant promotion to the Upper Bracket and are given a .500 winning percentage (ie 1 - 1) to start
8) Any new teams to Senior tourneys will start with a .500 winning percentage (ie 1 - 1) in the Lower Bracket
9) At the end of the year, the 5% or 10% of all teams in the Upper bracket with the lowest winning percentage will be demoted to the Lower Bracket & the 5% to 10% of Lower Bracket teams with the highest winning percentage will be promoted to the Upper Bracket
10) This is a similar concept to the way the Florida Half-Century places their teams for their monthly tournaments and is also how most golf courses run their local club tournaments

This will virtually eliminate sandbagging and insure that every bracket will be full with a slightly different mix of teams at every tourney
Nov. 7, 2008
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
DCPete,
Those are some good suggestions.
Please explain how your plan prevents winning teams from morphing into new teams that aren't recognized as winners (I hope it does).
I'm not trying to sound all-knowing, it just seems like this is the usual problem.
Thanks,
Jano
Nov. 8, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Jano, you are no doubt correct but it is a shame how middle-age men and older will exhibit no pride and just move around to avoid competition. Not everyone, I know, but it sounds like a lot.
Nov. 8, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Not avoiding competition per se, but maybe avoiding the crazy rules in Major-plus. I think that if they made it less of a home run derby (among some other things) more teams would be willing to play at the highest level and not break up and morph into the lower level.
Nov. 8, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Getting rid of the special bats would certainly help that.
Nov. 8, 2008
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
it's not special!
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
They are if only old guys are allowed to use them.
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertDave
Men's 60
74 posts
I think only the 50 and 55 age groups in M+ are the home run derby teams. Combine them and leave the rest the same. Gary we still would like the "special bats" . It makes it more equal for everyone. It also keeps the bat doctors and cheaters from having an advantage. How could you make a U2 hotter? JMO
Dave
Nov. 9, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Banning the hot bats would make it TOUGHER for the Major teams to compete with the Major-plus teams. More fly balls will fall short of the fence when your're best shot is 320' as oppose to 360' (or whatever the distance is). Doctored bats would become a very big problem. But as I have said before, the Major and Major-plus should be combined!
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Dave, work hard and improve your skills. THAT would make it more equal for everyone.

Jawood, so competition through technology is something to be proud of?
Nov. 9, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
But the bats are not going to go away.
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I know they aren't, nor do I really care. I just want to get rid of the hypocrisy of guys who insist on them yet claim they care about some safety issue.
Nov. 9, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Agreed!
Nov. 9, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
JAWOOD: Todays problem have been cause by the lighter bats & balls. In 2003, SS-USA, posted an article about the misgivings of 40 & 44 cor balls. People such as Kevin S, McDowell, Ciocco, Russell, Adair, & others, have written many articles on the MISGIVINGS, of ASTMsBat Standard
2219.

ASA, is the only softball organization that uses ASTM 2219. Senior bats still pass the old ASTM 1890 Bat Standard. Not sure if, ASTM 1890 WAS REVISED?

Has anyone asked this question? Why, do the following softball groups still use the ASTM 1890? That would be USSSA, ISA, NSA, etc, & several Senior groups.

Last year, ANACONDA SPORTS, developed a chip that could be installed into a bat. This chip could be read & if, a bat was shaved, that chip could not be read. What happen; the other bat companies did not want the chip in their bats & ASA, ISA, NSA, USSSA, etc, would not & did force any option that would, or could stop most of the Shaving of bats.

There are balls that have been develpoed that would cause the ball to do 80% of the work. These balls will & there are "FIELD DATA", to support this data, that these "NEW" balls will travel thru the infield 10 to 15% slower.

What does still data mean in real life: 1) safer balls 2) injuries will be less severe 3) not everyone will be hitting 400 foot shots 4) the batter & not the bat & ball combination, will be the force that causes the long ball
5) this balls comp will stay the same in weather 50 to 100 degrees.

Hopefully, Dirty & Enstein, will leave this post alone.

T Hi-J

Won't happen. The Major softball organizations, have their own needs & not the needs of the players.
Nov. 10, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
THJ,
As for the chip, this was thought of before last year, actually shortly after some of the Dr's were being brought down. But was shelved because of fear the sales would decrease which would have been a result.
Dr's still exist and working. Go to most any site or E-bay and they post outright. I went to play with a "team" yeaterday, all young guys, and used my grey combat because they didn't know which bats were legal for where they intemded on playing, I told them this was a senior bat not an ASA bat, and the first thing one said was you can use anything. shaved or whatever. I told him it's a good way to get banned from playing and he said that is the way this is run. I asked if it was worth it, he said yes.
Had a senior ask me about rolling early this month. I said it werkend the barrel and no guarantee it was done & did not damage the inside of the wall, where you didn't know it actually ruined the bat instead of making it hotter to go with. So all this goes on and will.
Everyone is looking for an edge.
Here's a strange one: why not flip flop the HR rule between the divisions. making it a defensive game for the upper divisions and a hitters game for the AA-AAA divisions... Sure the ball may go more up the middle but for some the challenge would be to keep it in the park.
Ok, it won't fly.
But the players are the ones who or can control if they choose to.
Nov. 10, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
I like the basic concept of combining divisions to build a better tournament playing field.
But I doubt this or any assn. would take the time to go through the completed games and start a tracking of the team results. Not that they can't start this coming year...
Main problem will be the sharing of info between the assn's. Unfortunately they are all tight lipped and also non-player friendly.
I think in the end you'd still end up having 4 divisions. Upper-lower for each half of those brought together. Some things will never be changed,
The say if you build it they will come. Conversely, if you don't come it may change.
But it would perhaps give teams a broader base to play against.
Nov. 10, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
Taits: The reason for four division is what? For myself, I believe that four classes will allow more seniors to get involved & play softball. It is no fun knowing that your team has no chance to win.

Another reason, players will filter down into a class were they players enjoy the game. No team or group of players want to spend money & get their butts beat badly or never win. To me, this just would not be fun or worth the money.

Does anyone want to see a strong Major Plus 50 team play against a weeker 50, 55, or 60 AA or AAA TEAM? There would be no fun, after a few games. The older & less talanted players could get hurt w/ the missles hit thru the infield. Most players do want the chance to win.

If, there was only one or two divisions, many senior would not spend their money to play. Taits, would you travel to get your butt beat or take a chance of getting hurt. It would not be fun, traveling knowing that your team was going 1 & 4 or 0 & 4.

T Hi-J

Again, four myself, I wish that there was information on the B.B.S., how fast a softball did travel thru the infield when wood, aluminum, & single wall bats, were used 20 years ago.
Nov. 10, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Your correct on no one want to go and have no chance to win... That goes along with spending the money for that whole lotta fun weekend. On the other side of the coin however, there are those 'teams' et al that look for just those types of oppertunities.
THJ,
I do not think they (Most teams) want that type of pairing off, but we know it goes on. Usually due to lack of teams in division within same age group.
Never "fun" to loose no matter the score nor # of games played. But the quality of the game or what I'd call the fun part is the playing of it. I agree it is not good to go and get kicked, but when we sign on for the T, it is always too late to withdraw when you find out who you will actually play. Then you are really stuck.
I think the majority of teams as a whole would prefer to play even up, but there are those who want the "slightest" edge.
No stats were done I know of back then, and far too many variables to consider making them. Too many differences in the evolution of bats (types and weights), balls (make up) have or were done compaired to what we have available today.
I think the only time references available are times it takes to reach the pitcher, roughly .43 sec, if I remember right. So add time to the other positions, but it isn't much.
There are many old post relating to this.
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