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Discussion: A different DOB structure

Posted Discussion
Dec. 8, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
A different DOB structure
I played in Manifee this last weekend and they played this rule like this:

Any ball hit up the middle BETWEEN the lines of the box and the pitcher had a foot within that box area, it was DBO.
HOWEVER if there was a runner on 1st base, he ALSO was OUT.
A base runner, elsewhere, was left or still†as ther were.
So double plays are a reality.
We had 3-4 of them this weekend. This also included easy plays for the pitcher to get someone out.
This went very smoothly from what games I watched or played in.
Dec. 8, 2008
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
taits,
Do you mean the pitcher did not have to
attempt to catch the ball at all? If this is so,
why not wear a full set of catchers gear on the box
and let everthing go through and argue whether
the ball went over the lines or not? What's the difference
between this and a screen? I fear just as much for
3rd basemen.Are we going put a rule in to protect them?
I guess I'll never understand a pitcher who stands still on the
mound. Thanks for the update.
Dec. 8, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
I do not KNOW the actual answer to that. As for myself, the three time that was called I made plays, 2 being boubles, one being a one outer.
I made plays on each one. If a pitcher was foolish enouge not to make at least a protective move, somehting is wrong. (senior moment)
I played 6 games saw the call 6 times minimum. Three were with myself.

I wear leg gear.

A screen is 3 foot wide rthe mound is 2 feet. screen is 6 foot tall as well. Nothing but your own skills & or protection the other way.

I also play the bases and have taken shots at 1st and 3rd. But they are also about 15-25 feet further than the pitcher at 50 feet. More like 20-30 because i don't see or knoww many basemen that play equal to the base inline with another base. they are always back about 5 feet or more.
I didn't come up with the rule, but it was made with a purpose and a rule is a rule until rchanged or deleted.

Actually, that is where I stand about half the time, then move back or sideways, depending on situation after release of ball.

All I know is that this worked this weekend for only what I saw, and only that.
Dec. 8, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
That's Menifee, & not the other way.
Dec. 8, 2008
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
I guess I'll have to see it in play. Thanks again for
the info.
Dec. 8, 2008
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
I played in the winterworlds in las vegas and was struck twice. In each incident the batter was not called out. I tried to make plays on both balls, but because i was out of the box "behind" the line the rule didn't apply. Just to let everyone know, iam not a bad fielder and usually play shortstop, so yes my hands still work. Most people stay away from the middle and if it happens, then it usually a mistake, but others and you know who you are still think that its alright. Just to let everyone know, if i went middle 5 times the pitcher might have a chance of getting one of them, but is it worth hurting someone for a base hit. And that"s the whole point of this post, iI "think". That the middle really does need to be shut down, and take away the judgement from the umpires, if you go middle your out " and if it happens twice by the same player out of the game. And yes both balls opened cuts, one on the leg and the other on the forearm And i hear, what about the third basemen and shortstop, trust me you have much more time at those positions then the pitcher.
Dec. 8, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
I had one when I was "out of the box" ( one foot and body, to side of box) as well as one just over my raised glove hand not fully extended yet, not called... but I wasn't hit.

I don't think I saw any up the middle shots that were intentional. Many batters gould place them easile I faced, there were a few that were very close to the line but none the less out of the middle zone.

If they increased the box width by 6 inches to each side and the depth a few feet (to allow for some movement) it might help BUT you will still have judgement calls, even with that, as well as another line in the middle if the box for the 56 foot mark.. not a great idea.
Even a screen isn't foul proof.
Pitch & wear a condom...lol Best idea.
I pitched all byt 3-4 inning in the 6 games I played. Could have played one more maybe 2, but I needed to get back up north.
Dec. 8, 2008
BONES
Men's 60
93 posts
Taits is exactly right on what he said about ball hit thur the box---if a man on first base he was out to--UNBELIEVEABLE---But then again---picture this--you have a pitcher wearing bright yellow shorts with a big smiley face on the front looking at you when hitting----when you take a second look you see this big red tongue sticking out from side of smiley face. Looked to me smiley face was saying-----na na na cant hit me----lol lol----so this is why i think scot took so many shoots up the middle. Great to see u again scot. Glad to see u made it home ok after all the things that happened to u this weekend.
Now as far as closeing down the middle as a 60AAA pitcher I VOTE NO FOR MY DIVISiON-------pitchers wear the protective gear to protect yourself--its OPTIONAL and should remain that way I'am speaking on my division only.
SB
Dec. 8, 2008
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
fella's, pitchers wear the correct safety gear and stop trying to change the game. Those who think they need it wear it!!!! Leave the ball diamond alone. the umps have enough to do correctly.
Dec. 8, 2008
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
Let me get this straight. A ball up the middle with a runner on first. No play made . Double play. omg What has softball come to? Someone is ruining this game. I for one will check with a TD before going to any tournament and if they have such a stupid rule as this, my team isn't traveling or at least I am not. I would hope many others would feel the same way. I can stay in Houston, run local tournaments and enjoy the game the way its suppose to be played. Sorry, guys, this one is burning a hole in me. Just tired of all this up the middle stuff. TD, just let me know what the rules are and I/my team will decide to come or not. Thats probably the best way to handle it.
Just my 2 cents.
GT
Houston/hmmmmm maybe Austin
Dec. 9, 2008
gshfbk
23 posts
the DBO rule at Menifee this past weekend was as Taits has stated and was called on our team at leaast 4 or 5 times in 5 games . The majority of times the ball never even tourched the pitcher yet the batter was out and in one instance it was a double play and the ball never touched the piticher. No question this was a differenr rule that most ,if not all, of those playing had not encountered before. I think one should keep in mind that this was not a SSUSA event/qualifier. The was a locally sponsonred tournament and the rule was one of those strange but true rules that the local rec league employs.

It was a little hard to take for balls that did not even tourch the pitcher, but in fairness to the guys putting on the tournament it did seem in our games that they were consistent in their enforcement of the rule
Dec. 9, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
GT i'm with you,bad enough the prices($300-600) we have to pay for tourney's, now we have to put up with this stupid rule(and yes i do pitch).i for one am not going to any ss-usa type tourney this yr b/c of thier middle rule(this means our tx half-century also).i will only play SPA and any other tourney that has no middle rule.basiclly i'll stick with the kids and play with them.

hey doc(gsh..) whats up,long time no see,hope you guys have a good season next yr.
Dec. 9, 2008
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
Let me get this strieght, G>T> and mad>dog lets play this game the way it made to be played.. That's fine by me, so where is that tournment with no miken, runners running for themselfs, and yes even having to slide at all the bases. Hummm I just don't recall one like that but if you two find one, lets do it Oh by the way, if anyone wants to come up the middle with out the hot bats, I have no problem with that.
Dec. 9, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Maddog far be it for me to talk you out of your stance but you and I both know the young game is in far worse shape than anything going on in the senior game. Inning ending hr's, offensive ejections, juiced bats, the list goes on. Taits comes on here and posts about a tournament but leaves the most important part out, it was a local/rec league rule. Minor details when your spinning. The grass is always greener on the other side. Enjoy the kids.
Dec. 9, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Lecak,
Your correct I did leave that out ( didn't even cross my mind) however it was not about associations, it was about structure and how used for this rule.

It was put on by Top Gun.
Dec. 9, 2008
the wood
1075 posts
All World;
In reading your posts, it seems to me that there is ample opportunity for a win- win solution for your concerns. Since you prefer to play in tourneys w/o the 1.2 bats, stick to local leagues and ASA... you'll like it better (based upon your statements) and we'll move try to on w/o you.
But you need to play in at least ASA regional events in order to fully utilize the 'All World' tag because the guys in the local leagues might not be as impressed with it if you never leave town.
If this doesn't work for you, renegotiate your contract and leave the pitching to someone else. It will give you the chance to use those hands.
BW
Dec. 9, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
Joe, You are 100% right, the ASA and the yound guys game is in a shambles, we dont have those problems. Bob, great answer, I wish I could be so eloquent. I like you more with every post.
Dec. 9, 2008
the wood
1075 posts
Thanks, Jim... perhaps the reason that you didn't 'properly appreciate' me years ago was that it was difficult to hear when you were in your foxhole and rockets were whizzing by. :-)
I seem to be aging faster all of the time... an example of this is my obvious lack of patience with folks that prefer to whine about their symptoms rather than seek viable solutions. I have found that this is closer to a majority than I previously thought possible. This is magnified further on this MB because of the limited number of players that make posts (as a % of the overall senior softball population)... and many of them lack long term experience.
I was taught that if it's important enough to gripe about, it's important enough to fix... but if it aint broke, don't fix it.
BW
Dec. 9, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
BW,
Were it not for the "depends on who is the head mechanic" I'd totally agree with your last sentence.
Dec. 9, 2008
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
To the Wood, if the name or handle upsets you, sorry about that. As for impressing other people, that's not about me. And before you pass judgement on someone, you need to get to know that person. I think if you'd every got to meet me, you just might change your mind about me. Anyway I stand by what I said, "you put 1.2 bat in the hands of some of these people, and going up the middle is asking for someone to get hurt. If you don't a gree with me that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As far as sticking to local tounements, I do play alot of them, as well as major tounments, But thanks for the advise Mr. Wood
Dec. 9, 2008
Have Bat Will Travel
Men's 60
12 posts
According to the flyer I received for the Menifee Tournament it reads SSUSA rules will apply. The problem I see with the DBO rule is that the umpires interpret the rule differently. A ball hit into the pitchers box should not be a automatic double play. The DBO should be enough of a penalty. We had a ball that bounced 5' over the pitchers head that was called a double play. I don't see anything that the pitcher can't touch over his head should be considered in the box.
Dec. 9, 2008
the wood
1075 posts
All world, the middle is a large area... if I hit the pitcher I would feel badly about it... I hit one this year in the calf and it was an accident... he never broke stride about it (nor did he whine)... I make every effort to avoid hitting them... but I still hit the middle when it makes sense... I hit one about every 3-4 years... in the interim, I have taken several body shots w/o ever whining.
You don't want to impress anyone yet your handle is All world'... well, ok... that seems a bit of a conflict to me. Apparently, the Humility 101 class wasn't availble in your area.
But you are correct, I am guilty of passing judgement on that. Maybe we have met before... if so, I don't recall it as that's a name that I would remember.
BW
Dec. 9, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Have bat...travel,
Who were you playing for in Menifee? I'm wondering if that is one I saw.
Dec. 9, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
720 posts
Menifee Rule. The DBO rule is evolving and I expect will find the way of the DoDo bird. It just causes too much truble with a completely subjective decision by the umpire.

In Menifee it did not have to hit anything just go through the box. The umpires tried to be consistent, but a Dead ball double play is just wrong and no body advances. Therefore bases loaded ball in through the box. Runner at first and batter out, runners at 2nd and 3rd stay.

The summit that changed this rule for the Major Plus division and ultimately all of senior softball hurt more than it helped. If I am mistaken where the change came from I apologize beforehand.
Dec. 9, 2008
the wood
1075 posts
SB4:
The Summit didn't instigate the DBO rule... it was started last January by SSUSA and is only indigenous to their assn. As you may recall, it has already been changed as a result of the M+ Task Force this past summer... and it has been globally applied to all SSUSA levels (not just M+).
The rule in this thread, as it was applied in Menifee last weekend, was/is not endorsed by SSUSA as it was a non-sanctioned event. There is nothing to suggest that SSUSA will adopt this version into their rules.
I totally agree with your assessment of it and its inherent unfairness.
BW
Dec. 9, 2008
Tate22
Men's 55
260 posts
Bob Woodroof:
Totally agree with your point about not fixing things that aren't broken. I'd also like so see the whining and opining end and a workable solution be adopted. World peace will come before the first one, but maybe we can apply common sense to achieve real protection for pitchers. The solution already exists, imho. The well intentioned attempt to legislate pitcher saftey through rules causes more problems than it solves. The choice of rules ranges from the current DBO zone to totally closing the middle. The first choice is ineffective and the second is unthinkable in terms of the game we all love.

In another post, another poster pointed out that the first move in safety is to engineer away the risk. Mandating a 2 foot X 6 foot piece of air (vertical from the rubber) or the 2X6 box chalked on the ground protect nothing. Besides pitching machines and batting tees used in Little League, engineering comes in two forms for slow-pitch pitcher safety - watering down the bats and balls, or protective gear for the pitcher. Boo on the first one, it still does not protect the pitcher. A single wall bat and a cheap league ball can still hurt someone.

The only real answer to pitcher safety is for pitchers to use whatever protcetive gear they are comfortable with. From a cup to full catchers gear, it is all available and currently legal. It all works, as thousands of baseball catchers and umpires prove every year. Let the pitcher decide, and recognize the risk we all assume by playing an active sport which involves a batted ball. I use shin guards whenever I pitch, and would consider a helmet/mask as my reflexes and eyesight continue to age. I played this weekend in Menifee, and watched my pitcher get knocked on his butt by a shot up the middle. The Menifee rule, as well as the SSUSA rule did nothing to protect him. Armor up, and leave the game alone. When the game becomes too fast for me, I'll consider golf, where I'm told hitting the middle is highly recommended.

Respect to all;

Don Newhard
Manager - OLR NIghthawks
Dec. 9, 2008
the wood
1075 posts
Don, I always knew that you were bright... :-)
If I wanted to drive a car with poor brakes & fragile fenders, would it be reasonable to expect others to know this and to put the onus on them to avoid colliding with me? Maybe I could carve out a lane of my own and make it forbidden for anyone else to enter. This isn't the perfect analogy but it is in the right direction.
In Europe they drive 100 mph + and the general trend is to stay the heck out of the way if you want to drive slower then that.
Don, why is it that a reasonable solution is so difficult to apply?
BW
Dec. 9, 2008
TOMAR77
Men's 55
193 posts
Tate22, your 2 word Rally Cry, say's it all......ARMOUR UP!!!!
Tommyd , Git-R-Done
Dec. 9, 2008
Tate22
Men's 55
260 posts
Woody:
Your analogy is very accurate. There are those that want to carve a lane of their own in the middle of the field and make it illegal to enter. Sort of like Cruz and a buffet line. Not practical and difficult to enforce. As for your question, the difficulty with applying a reasonable solution in this matter is that too often objective solutions based on facts are countered with arguments based on emotion. That never works in my experience. The fact remains that wordsmithing by the SSUSA staff, emotional arguments and macho posturing about whether or not "the middle is open", and protective zones drawn out of thin air don't really protect a single pitcher. Only protective equipment can do that.

Solution: Can the DBO rule, and provide suggestions on good protective equipment. Encourage its use, but don't mandate it. Heck, the on-line equipment vendors sponsoring this site might increase sales in these tough times.. Make the use of the equipment voluntary, but remind everyone of the risk we already accept in playing this game.

Don
Dec. 9, 2008
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
Tate22, Amen you put it better than i have heard it yet. Armour-up!!! I know our pitcher agrees with it also. Lazer Out
Dec. 9, 2008
BigLou
26 posts
I started a post a couple of weeks ago suggesting a screen to protect the pitcher at his option. However if the ball hit the screen it was a dead ball SINGLE. I actually started this tongue in cheek. I wanted to see how many pitchers really wanted protection. If you really want it you need to give something up- the ability to record an out.

The batter is not going to be penalized because a pitcher canít field his position. In fact the batter will be rewarded because a pitcher canít field his position. As is the case in real softball.

Of course there was all kinds of argument about how a screen would ruin the game, defensive problems with throws from the outfield etc. Some of these objections were from guys that are in favor of the DBO rule.

It would be interesting to see how that rule (optional screen DB SINGLE) would play out and how many pitchers would actually use a screen to the detriment of their team. My hunch is that those who wanted to use a screen would soon find themselves out of a job, or asked to move to a position or level that they could play at.

Get rid of the Dead Ball Out rule. Quit whining and armor up!
Dec. 9, 2008
BONES
Men's 60
93 posts
SHREEEEE------now theirs some posts from some pretty good warriors---leave that battlefield alone and ARMOUR UP--------SIMPLE AND SAFE. I vote YES for what ever its worth.
SB
Dec. 10, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
joe(lecak) as u know(from st george)i have no prol with middle hitting when i'm pitching.i just don't care for the rule and yes i did understand that the menifee tourney had thier own middle rule.i'm with some die hards here that if a ball is not fielded by(or can not be fielded) the pitcher, why penalize the batter.i play a bunch with the kids here, as we don't have the number of tourney's u have back there in the west,and have no prol with it and there are some middle wars here.maybe i'm luckier than most as i still have fairly good reflexes so don't mind pitching,when needed.

for allworld,i don't like the CR either,if u can run to first or even farther why do u need a rabbit to run the rest of the way.yes i get run for(usaully not my option,but coaches) but don't really care for it.i would rather run for myself.if a person is genuinely hurt or something to that effect yes ok,but how about limiting CR's to 1 per inning or 2 max,not just about everyone getting a runner.
well my rant sorry.
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