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Discussion: Word on existing 50 M+ teams that will not play under the present rules.

Posted Discussion
Dec. 21, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
Word on existing 50 M+ teams that will not play under the present rules.
If, SS-USA, contuine down their present road; I just got an e-mail, inwhich Randy Hendrick's, will not be fielding a 50 M+ team this year. I understand that the Hollis boys, will not be fielding a 50 or 55 M+ team.

If, the Florida Half Century, Texas Half Century, & the NorCal groups, follow thru: then these Regions will be staying home & not spend their money AT TOURNEYS where Home Runs, become outs.

Only time will tell. I hope you ballplayers do enjoy the TOC.

THi-J
Dec. 21, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
T-H-J- Not sure if you're giving us good or bad news, but my first reaction is it's more than likely GOOD. The Major Plus make up maybe 3% of all teams in ssusa, but they generate about 97% of the noise here! This is a positive development if you are correct. DG
Dec. 21, 2008
2awesom
Men's 50
296 posts
I would just like to make a short reply on the new M+ HR rule. It seems like most do not approve of HR's being OUTS
after the 10th HR. That's what I am reading on the several
posts concerning this subject anyway.

I am a player/coach of a newly annointed 50 M+ team and
I don't really see it as a big problem. The example I will use is in the 2008 Winter Nationals in Ft. Myers we lost to
a very good Damons' squad 54-14. They did not hit 10
HR's in that game. So I guess I'm asking, will most M+ teams actually hit 10 Hr's every game?

Yet, I can understand how some may be upset by this rule.
However I thought that we are Senior Men here guys, not children, who if they don't like the rules will take their balls & bats , quit and go home.

My newly annointed 50 M+ likes a challenge, and at the 50
M+ level it will indeed be a challenge. I think one
of the reasons will be because we are not a team built on
just HR power.

Just my thoughts, no intent to riducule anyone here! I say
let's give the new rules (including the HR rule) a try and see
where it goes. Happy Holiday's to all!
Dec. 21, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
2AWESOM: One of the probems, might be that as one gets older, that age group gets less Home Runs. An example: In the 60 M+, M+ gets 6 H.R. In 60 Majors, Major teams will get 5 H.R. In the 55 M+, that age group is allowed only 8 H.R.

Desert Guy: What is going to happen to all of these 10 to 20 Major teams that will be thrown into the M+. Also,what is going to happen to the 10-20 AAA teams that will be moved up into Majors.

The H.R. for an out, is just going tp make many players & teams unhappy. If, the "real" Major Plus teams do not show or the Major teams that were sent up to be feed on, do not show, what will be gained?

What about the AAA teams that will also, get moved up into Majors?

This year at Phoenix & L.V., several teams just quit in the middle of games. WHY? Both teams were getting spanked badly. One score was 60 to 20(in that range) & in the other 45 to 13. The newly formed 50 M+ team was still batting in the third inning. The 55 M+ was getting killed. In that game, the were only 2 H.R., hit by that 50 Major Plus team.

I believe that not to many teams will pitch B.P. or take several butt beating in Major Plus or Majors. These are just some of my concerns.

As far as 50 Major Plus teams, there are 3-4 teams maximun that can exceed 10 H.R. In the 55, I am not sure how many Major Plus teams can exceed 8 H.R. In the 60 Major Plus, there will be several teams that will be able to hit over 6 H.R.

Once in awhile, if, the weather is right; wind & temperature is below 60 degrees, the will be many teams going over the limit. If, all Major Divisions are allowed 5 H.R., there will many over the limit H.R. outs.

I wonder, how many excessing AAA teams, hit more than three H.R.? Is it relly true, that during this past year, one AAA team hit 13 - 14, ball over the 300 foot fence?

Again, if 20 to 40 teams in the 50, 55, & 60 age groups get moved up; what is the real number? That would be 20 to 40 teams; time three age groups; time two levels ( AAA & Majors).

That would be 20 to 40 teams in each age groups,; (50, 55, & 60) get moved up into a higher level. That's 60 to 120 teams. Will 10 more teams in the Major Plus age groups help? Or, will these new team fold. It is no fun getting beat by 15 to 25 runs, several times per Tournement.

Dave, I hope that the 20 teams or more that get moved up, do go up & play. But, from what I hear, many of these teams will not play, will break up, etc.

Only time will tell.
T Hi-J
Dec. 22, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
DESERT DAVE: The following data comes from SS-USA’S Message Board. Ratings were last updated on 11/04/2008.

AWESOM: Did your pitchers & outfielders, enjoy being on the field for over one hour & get beat by 40 runs? How much time during the past year did your team get beat by 20 or more runs?

In the past, several to many team have quit playing during that year, when "their" team was moved up. Why? It is no fun to get beat & know that ones team will not be able to compete. Few wish to be B.P., for others.

IN THE 50 AGE GROUP: AA- 42 teams.
1) AAA- have 110 teams 2) Majors- have 56 teams 3) Major Plus- that there is 15 teams. How many teams are going to get moved up?

Take 30 teams out of AAA (put into Majors); & move 26 existing Major teams into Major Plus.
There forth: 1) AAA-80 teams 2) Majors- 60 teams 3) Major Plus- about 30 –35 teams

How many, if, any existing Major or Major Plus Teams will be allowed to move down?

IN THE 55 AGE GROUP: AA- 32 teams.
1) AAA- 72 teams 2) Majors- 35 teams 3) Major Plus- that there is 17 teams. Again, how many teams will be moved up?

Take 22 teams out of AAA & move then into Majors. Take 20 existing Major teams & move them into Major Plus.
There forth: 1) AAA-50 teams 2) Majors- 37 teams 3) Major Plus- 30-35 teams.

How many, if, any existing Major or Major Plus Teams will be allowed to move down? For some reasons, there appears to fewer 55 teams. (Major & Major Plus)

IN THE 60 AGE GROUP: AA- 57 teams.
1) AAA- 72 teams 2) Major- 39 teams 3) Major Plus- that there is 16 teams. Move 22 AAA teams into Major. Take 20 existing Major teams & move those teams into Major Plus.

There forth: 1) AAA- 50 teams 2) Major- 41 teams 3) Major Plus- 30-35 Teams. Will some AA teams get moved up into AAA?

Will this moving of teams up, help the Major Plus divisions? How many of the AAA & Major teams that get moved up, will be able to compete & win?

If, 140 teams get moved up, how many of these teams will be allowed to go back down? If, only 70 teams get moved up, will that small number of teams in three different age groups help solved “the problem”?

One of many possible questions. Dave & Awesom, thanks for the replies.
T Hi-J
Dec. 22, 2008
DesertDave
Men's 60
74 posts
T Hi-J
That was DesertGuy not Desert Dave. He does seem to have a point though. Almost exclusively, the complaining seems to be coming from 50M+ and 55M+ players. I don't like it either, when I hit one over the fence, and it is an out. It has happened to me a couple times over the past two years.

When that is the rule for the betterment of ALL of the players as a whole, we should try to work with it. Over the past 3 years, our team has gone from AAA to AA to AAA and now to Major. We have adapted, added some players along the way, lost some players also. We have been successful because we like each other, work to improve and most of all just try to HAVE FUN.

One of the things I have noticed as we have added more advanced players, is they can adapt. Softball is A LOT MORE than hitting HR's. Good players do what is necessary to help the Team. I might be a HR at the right time. It might be taking the extra base, making a play in the field, or just taking a walk.

If you are trying to hit a line drive, and mishit it into a HR, how is that different than mishitting it into a pop-up to the pitcher?

Could it be some egos are showing?

I for one plan to play all the ball I can. If I have to hit a double instead of a HR, then so be it.
You can bet I'm not going to take my bat, ball, and glove, and go home.
JMO
Dave #31
Robson Ranch 60M
Dec. 22, 2008
Renny
5 posts
I have a few thoughts regarding Major+ teams not playing and the new rules proposed. I agree some Major+ teams may not play. I wonder how much of this has to do with the economy. I played Major Ball (now called Major+) for my first couple of years in Senior Softball. Even then we had very few teams, and like today the top teams (sponsored) were dominant. We traveled all across the country to compete and had a great sponsor that picked up the cost. I'm not sure in the economy today that too many teams can afford the cost of travel without a full sponsorship. Many of the Major teams move up to Major+ will not be able to travel outside their geographical area.

The one area that concerns me the most is in many parts of the country you could not field two Major+ teams without full sponsorship and unlimited (open) recurting. We need a program to enhance the Major+ teams to be the elite and our flag ship of Senior Softball. By bringing to many teams up from the Major catagory will effectively reduce the level of play for Major+ Ball.

Rule changes proposed for 2009. I like the new homerun rule because I believe it makes better hitters out of all of us. I also believe the run rule is positive. I can tell you many times we/or our competitors scored over thirity runs in an inning. We had games of three innings because of the time limit. In some cases the three inning games lasted over one and a half hours.

If the changes proposed in 2009 are approved I believe the rating committee needs to make changes (up and down) in a more timely manner to keep teams together. I also believe we only need three levels, Major, AAA, and AA.

My two cents-Renny
Dec. 22, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
RENNY: I got an e-mail earlier today. The person that sent me that e-mail, spoke or got the following idea from someone else. SS-USA, has been already given this solution.

In the Men's, 50, 55, & 60 MAJOR PLUS only.
1) Seven runs per inning.
2) Unlimited H. R.s, in all endings, except the open inning.
3) Open inning, three H.R.'s & after that, it will be an out.
4) Courtesy Runners, must be in the first base coaching box. If, not than that batter, will have to run for theirself. Not sure if, this rule will speed up the game. I am sure that many players will not like this rule.

T Hi-J
Dec. 22, 2008
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Im going to try and explain what Terry and his group is trying to do. I play for Travllodge 55 based out of In. We put this team together as a major team. We played our first tourner in Ft. Meyers winter nationals and won. We lost a game and won 2 by 1 run and had an extra inning win. In Jan we got moved to Major+. We did not agree but it is what it is. That was in 07 and we did okay even though we had to play alot of 50 major because of the # of teams in 55 Major+. This year we went to Lville there was 1 other Major+ team, we went to Champaign 1 other Majpr+ team, same 1 that was in Lville, went to St. Louis no 55 Major+ teams so played 50 Major, went to Az. 3 Major+ teams. That was a lot of money out of each and everyone of us to go and play and not have hardly anyone to play. They are trying to get teams to play in their proper class and still be able to compete. Our team averaged 2.3 home runs a game so we are a long way from a power team. When we were moved up we did NOT recruit players and have kept our same group and I for one would not trade any of them for anything or anyone. MTC beat us in Az. but not because of homeruns, they did it with good defense and out hit us. My point is we enjoy playing and they are trying to make all classes with more teams and make the rules so all teams are competive.
Dec. 22, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Butch:
It isn't that difficult to interpret what TH/SSUSA is TRYING TO DO. So let's look at this from a hyopthetical position and presume that SSUSA does move teams up into the M+ divisions. I stress the part about teams being moved up, not going up on their own. As you pointed out, you only went up because you were forced to do so... and, believe me, I understand all of the arguments about having more teams to play. That isn't complicated either... GSF feels it, too... but breaking apart our team or playing down aren't viable options for us.
getting back to the point... teams are moved up into the M+ divisions... this gives us more teams to play, right? We all sleep better knowing that these rule changes saved the day.
Meanwhile the teams that were moved up find that they can compete within the new framework, right? So when they play in SPA, SSWS, LVSSA, ISSA (any other assn except SSUSA and ISA) they happily play in the M+ wherever else they play. Right?
Or... has SSUSA taken the position that whatever happens elsewhere is immaterial? TH is one of the persons on the ranking committee but only one of three.
So once a team ventures outside the world of SSUSA what does it do? Does it take the Ruth Realty 60 team approach and declare itself a M team? I'm thinking that this is only available to Ruth Realty teams.
Meanwhile, what happens to teams such as GSF? Do we avoid the SSUSA Nationals for fear that we'll see only a couple of teams (domino effect)? I will continue to keep an open mind about all of this but these changes do not appear to have been well prepared. GSF can live with the 7th HR being a DBO but we can't live with diminshed brackets (i.e. other teams not playing because of these rules).
Does anyone aside from me wonder why the 60 division only gets 6 HRs? If we could hit 10 (like the 50s) this might not be much of an issue for us. This eerily similar the the changes announced in January in terms of regressive HRS as you go up the age chart. Seems to me that ISA adopted exactly the same stuff. Wow! What a coincidence.
We played with 9 Hrs (and then an out) in NE this past August and it wasn't a problem for the 60s... we brushed up against it once or twice w/o hitting the 10th one... no big deal, really.
Butch, you like them... that's fine. Where else will you play aside from ISA and SSUSA? Will you expect to see more teams than you have over the past 2 years?
BW
Dec. 22, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
I'm proud of the fact that someone sees fit to classify me and my teammates as a Major Plus team. I'm still a young man if my lot in life for Senior softball is low attendance, mercy rules galore, teams not seeing fit to finish out their committments once at a tournament I intend on finding this out. It appears if you dig deep into the plethora of numbers in this posting it was stated as fact that very few Major plus teams can hit the new limits,but with the Major teams there are "many over the limit HR outs. Then maybe the idea is backwards move all the existing Major plus teams to Major and all the Major teams to Major Plus.

Here is an additional thought for Major Plus going forward, where will I play at age 55, 60 if I stay healthy. If this division does and el foldo due to apathy you will have approximately 250 players looking for new places to play as well as all the 48-49 year olds. Gentleman there are some very serious ballplayers getting ready to enter 50 ball. Do we want them in the major division? I can't answer this the Major and AAA guys need to.
Dec. 22, 2008
Renny
5 posts
Mr. Jacker the rules you outlined from your friend are fine with me. With the exception of the courtesy runner rule. We would have players running from the dugout to coach first base nearly every at bat.

The team I play on will be moved up to 60 Major+ this season. We qualified for TOC more than once last year. Our record last year versus the Major+ teams was not very good. With that said I dont have a problem with moving up. I do have a problem with the timing. Many players in our area (Southern California) have played and qualified already with a team. Maybe if the SSUSA would allow us an extension to our roster date for 2009 without penalities to the players. We would be able to restructure our team.

Wood I agree with your statement about the HR rule. What does age have to do with it? If your 50 years old and are allowed ten homeruns why would the 60's only be allowed six? Do we hit more homeruns as we age? Have the fence's become shorter? What ever the magic number for homeruns six, eight, or ten, it should be the same for all age groups.

I applauded the rules committee for trying to restructure the brackets; however maybe a summit meeting to finalize the changes would be wise.
Dec. 22, 2008
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Bob, we were a major team not a major+ team. my point was that we were winning by 1 or so runs got beat all against major teams but by us winning all of a sudden we are a major+ team. unlike some teams we never laid down and played every game hard. we both know teams that lay down so they can be rerated. to answer your question about where would we play the same as always. we do not skip national tourneys just because they will not let us use certain bats or go just because of certain bats. i believe as a competitor you play by what ever the rules are. our team plays because we enjoy competing, and we are not ready to play golf or go fishing yet.
Dec. 22, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
RENNY: Ones last statement;"I applauded the rules committee for trying to restructure the brackets; however maybe a summit meeting to finalize the changes would be wise."

As I understand it, the rules committee, did not make up this rule. When the "player reps", got to Florida, the decision was already made. The Major Plus divisions, was one area that "was" discussed.

Summit Meeting: The Summit, has also, gotten smaller. This winter meeting was for ISA & SS-USA, only. The Summit, is starting to fracture.

Since BW, ownes ISA & the majority of SS-USA, why, did BW, elect to travel down todays path?

T Hi-J
Dec. 22, 2008
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Another example of no teams is the TOC. We went to the first one 3 teams in our class. Last year only us and Hollis this year we are not going because no other qualified team in 55 Major+ was going to attend so we have to miss in our thoughts one of the best tourneys of the year because of no teams. how is that fair to the guys that want and enjoy playing softball. senior softball used to be about softball but is turning into politics and that cant be good.
Dec. 22, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
756 posts
Let's compromise.

Freeze all teams at their ending level as of 09/01/08 until 11/01/09.

Combine Major and Major + 11/01/09 all age groups.

14 HRs per game Max, then outs,

5 runs per inning and open inning.

AAA

2 HR hitters per game, hit as many as you want, others outs.

5 runs per inning and open inning.
Dec. 22, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Mike, nice compromise... :-)

Butch, while you did answer my question conceptually, I was really looking for specific responses... such as SPA, SSWS, ISSA, etc. My point in posing the question was to illustrate the likelihood/unlikelihood of M/M+ (cusp teams) playing somewhere other than SSUSA. If I'm a M team that has been moved up and I play the new SSUSA rules, that's one thing. But will I really want to play in the other assns with traditional M+ rules? Again, I'm not counting ISA as one of 'the other assns'... same stuff, different name.
GSF is willing to play against the best competition under almost any conditions. But the one thing that we can't stomach is to travel and play 1-2 west coast teams (and no others)... or just 1-2 teams from anywhere. In previous years, we've traveled as far as VA (in August) and all over the mid west (some of which was ASA rules) in the summer. We've played SPA in mid July (2005-2008) when common sense dictated otherwise. But we knew that this is where the competition would be.
Years ago WE made the decision to be a M+ team because... 1) we wanted to beat the best (and we took beatings along the way)... 2) we didn't want any mid year surprises... (i.e. ranking committee)... this was a good strategy until the past 12 months. We have received nothing but surprises... rule changes, rule changes, economic issues, teams dropping out/down, etc... did I mention rule changes? The result was a rapidly declining M+ division. It had been increasing each year since 2003 (for us).
To say that we are committed to the M+ division is a gross understatement. Regardless of what happens with these rules we aren't going away. Are we the exception or the rule?
1) Which high ranking M teams, low ranking M+ or former AAA teams will actually commit to playing in SPA, SSWS, LVSSA? and now that ISSA/ISF has officially asked for teams/players' rule feedback (the same route taken by SSWS & SPA), they will probably experience more acceptance than over the past couple of years.
2) If the number of 'bumped up' teams willing to play in the M+ division (or M, AAA and AA) is not greater than 2008, how prudent are the changes?
Pardon the dangling participles and 'run on' sentences. These questions are for anyone, not just Butch, as they are issues for all levels.
BW
Dec. 22, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Bob look at the various websites when you reference their ratings it flips to what ai believe everyone is familiar with from SSUSA. I don't know why unless there is an agreement to share.

From a 50 perspective non SSUSA stuff from one team's perspective. SPA no we have no money too far wouldn't matter what we were rated. ISSSA no again no money. SSWS no actually never crossed our mind personally couldn't tell you a damn thing about them. NSA/ASA/USSSA nope nope and nope. LVSSA yes like the rules and the guys love the city.
From the west non SSUSA for us is not really that big a deal. I could see east coast teams going to SPA instead of say LVSSA or Phoenix. We will stay in touch with our peers and make the best of our personal funds.

LVSSA I would imagine does what the rest have on their website, they would take the easy route and access what we see on this website.
Dec. 23, 2008
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Butch,I understand the frustration of the M+ division on the low number of teams in most tourney's .We were the other 55 m+ team in Lville and Champaign you refered to. After Champaign we were rated back to Major and played in 3 worlds finished last in isa and spa in az got hot and finishing 3rd winning 4 games in loser brackett by 1 run(must have been good coaching) haha. There were 14 teams in az in 55 major and 20+ in 50 major also real good numbers in aaa in both age groups. I don't know about the others but in 55 major it was a real even tourney. What I'm getting to is major & aaa are doing real good hope this is not messed up trying to fix M+.
One idea I had on helping M+ is change the age to say 50 to 57 and 58 to 65 this would help get more teams in each age group. Merry Christmas to all!
Dec. 25, 2008
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
JohnBob hope you and all your teammates had a nice Christmas and will have a safe New Years. Tell all when you see them I said hi and maybe we will be rerated as major. lol Butch
Dec. 27, 2008
M2`
Men's 50
11 posts
Major+, Major, AAA it's all the same - competition. That's why some of us still play instead of spending the $$$ on a Skeeter Bass Boat and compete in fishing tournaments, ha ha.
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