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Discussion: Homerun Rule

Posted Discussion
Dec. 26, 2008
lobo24
14 posts
Homerun Rule
How about after you reach your limit on homeruns .You get three or four balls over for walks or singles.Then outs.
Jan. 22, 2009
EZ13
Men's 50
1 posts
How about if we kept the equalizer rule or even if we put limits based on the division all homers above that would just be a STRIKE. I never did like the singles rule and maybe the out rule is a little hard for some to stomach.
Jan. 23, 2009
wagon487
Men's 50
516 posts
that would make the game even longer, which means another inning would we not get to play beacuse of the time limit.
Jan. 23, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
I have a tremendous amount of respect for senior softball and everybody who plays this fine game but the HR rule just misses the mark to me. The players did not manufacture the hot senior bats and good balls but it seems like we are the ones who are paying the price for the performance of the equipment provided us. We spend many days getting in shape and hitting ball after ball breaking in bats and getting the swing down and we get to the games and you are forced to punch it to the opposite field or up the gut. Just the sound of dead ball outs in senior softball does not fit the game. I see a lot of post where folks say to move up to major or major + if you want to hit the ball out of the park. It is not that easy if you live in an area (Washington State) where there is a huge gap between the AAA teams and major teams in overall team quality. I play AAA and do it quite well but I have no desire to move up and be a part time roll player.
This is a fantastic game we play and I would continue playing even if we hit a mush ball but we seniors should be allowed to hit it as hard and far as you can. Have fun and swing away.
Thanks all and sorry for the rambling.
James
Jan. 24, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
James,
"For a man who has lived but one lifetime
you are very wise." (from Bela Lugosi's Dracula)
Right on my senior softball sibling.
Not only is it fun and our right
but we will select those tournaments and leagues
where we can use our equipment and have a blast.
That's what all the evidence I've seen to date, shows.
Jan. 24, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
Joe:

I can see why some folks want the HR rule changed but I just think it does not fit in senior softball. Unfortunately we never know when our last at bat will be and I sure don't want the last ball I am fortunate enough to hit out to be a DBO. This game is good medicine for us to just go have a blast and play a game we all enjoy. I have never played a sport with as many good quality people as there is in senior softball.
thanks:
James
Jan. 24, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
James, you're a gem!
I haven't met in real life one person who thinks making home runs
outs for seniors is a good idea.
I don't know one softball player who wants to hit a ball that won't respond directly
when struck hard and square.
Don't kill the messenger.
Jan. 25, 2009
wagon487
Men's 50
516 posts
I don't have a problem with HR being outs in senior ball.
When I used to play B ball, we only had 3 to 5 HR a game.
That was it. We learned how to go the other way. We hit HR when you needed them. Sure there were times when line drives went out, someone would hit one out by hitting it hard, but you worked around it. You know where you stood in the score, how many runs you needed to get away from the other teams HRs. I say we quit crying over HRs and play the game. I'm more impressed with someone hitting the two hole with runners on first and second then hitting a HR.
HR's are nice, so are base hits.
Jan. 25, 2009
wagon487
Men's 50
516 posts
JamesLG, we did not manufacture the epuipment, but we pick it for the most part. What price are we paying? What's wrong with going the other way or going up the gut? don't you pratice that in you BP sessions? Do you just pratice trying to hit HRs. And you are talking AAA, how many HR do you need. See my above post when playing B ball and hr limits, we worked with what we had.
And of course einstein is going to agree with you, he just wants to hit HR's.
Jan. 25, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
Hi Wagon 487:

Great points and I do respect your thoughts. I played a few years of competitive amiture golf and in the end all that mattered was what was on your score card. I may be looking at this all wrong but I view softball the same way. All that matters in the end is the score? It does not matter how the runs were manufactured. HR's are not what I play softball for but I do believe they belong in this game. When we play against a team where guys can hit the ball all over the lot and are on base all the time they are much harder to defend than a team that will hit a lot of balls out of the park.
Thank You:
James
Jan. 25, 2009
BMoney
37 posts
I really believe that this had to be done for everyone in Senior Ball;especially in Major and Super Major divisions.In my honest opinion AAA had gotten to be more fun than what I was playing Major+.We got there by winning a few tournaments;not for hitting HR's.So you have 2 scenarios;1. You go to a rournament and there are no Major + teams there-you end up playing the age group below you in Major.Not a bad idea;except when your whole team is say 58,59,60 and the team you are playing is just turning 50.2.or you go to a national tournament and the Major+ team you are playing hits all allowed and just keeps hittingmore HR's for singles.When the final tally is taken;they have hit 18 to your 4. It is hard for a true Major (which is what we are)team to keep up with that. +there is no defense in that.This way gives a true Major team a chance against a Major + team.
I know this may noy be the answer but it is a start.

Hey-Wagon-what's up.

Money
Jan. 25, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Good post BMoney. People are finally understanding that in each division there is two types of teams. 1. the team that was put together to play in that division and the team that was moved to that division. Example a team that was put together to play major, wins and gets moved to major plus and a team that was put together to play major plus only. They normally have 8 guys or more that will hit longball verses the moved up team has 2 or 3. Someone will say get different guys but alot of teams enjoy playing with the guys they have played with for years so to them that is no option.
Jan. 25, 2009
Mr. Manassas
225 posts
That's a good way to put it...A team that has been put together to play Major+ and a team that has been moved up....Wise beyond you're years...that "moey" guy too!!!!
Jan. 25, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
Guys:

I think one of the reasons I don't agree with the HR rule is in the tournaments we play in it is not an issue. I do play AAA and I have never heard any complaining either way. Two years ago in Phoenix we had 15 balls hit out on us in 4 innings by a team from Texas and that was a bit much in AAA. We will see as the season progresses.

Thanks again:

James
Jan. 25, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
JamesLG, I would believe that this is not much of an issue in AAA as long as teams obey the rules by not letting major + and major players play in the same age bracket in AAA. The situation is different when talking about major +. I believe Butch17 explained it well. There appear to be only a few options to get more teams to play in either major + or major. Some options might be: Major + teams network with other strong major teams to see if they want/can/will pick up other players to put together a team intending on playing major +; Major + teams spread their talent around and creat more major + teams; Major + teams break up and have players go to either other major teams or to AAA teams which would then move to major;

I respect everyones desire and right to want to hit the ball hard and have unlimited home runs; however, the reality is there are limited teams that actually want/do play major +. The teams from major that were moved to major + for whatever reason, most do not wish to play at the major + level. This results in teams disbanding, renaming, etc. Maybe the goal should be to find a way to have major as the highest level. For those who desire, maybe there could be a home run contest at each tourney where the players could let the adrenaline and testosterone flow.

If this was to occur the SSUSA would have to enforce whatever rules concerning the pick up of players in each division, i.e., sandbagging must be controlled.
Jan. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I with sadness look out upon my prospects this year, 2009 for softball.
I see teams in 50's, 55's and 60's that want me to roster with them
but I won't because the "new" rules and the frenzy toward "fixing" problems
that don't exist in the senior game, at large, the weak administrations
that are too removed from the players and unable to admit or correct their mistakes
and self interested merchandisers working overtime,
to move our game to a place that won't be enjoyable enough for me to play.
Me and lots of others.
None of what I say is about disparaging anyone.
It's an attempt to tell the truth and stand up for and to anyone
involved in the hope that others will examine what is going on and learn
what needs to be done to ensure our game stays representatively ours
and enjoyable enough to participate in.
Given the situation, It's not, anymore, for me.
Silence and good will will not change what is actually going on
and where it's all coming from and where we're headed
not unlike our society at large.
Real people with real, passionate and respectful
albeit controversial and informed opinions
and beliefs are what I trust to guide us, the senior softball community
toward ends that are truly in all our best interests.

I have the utmost respect for the players
and the whole of senior softball.
The best human beings a I've met have shared experiences with in the last 10 years
have come from and still play senior softball
but we tend to be a little too accepting of what others do/are doing around us.
It's easy for our collective good nature and good will to be exploited
by powerful, well insulated and self-interested others
because we don't like making waves or complain or confront
when we experience hardship and opposition.
We just stuff it and move on and through.
This can provide a too comfortable blind
for those in and around who have power and influence.

That's all.
Be careful, question and make your own judgements
about what's going on around us.
Get involved and stay involved.
Find out what you really think about what's most important to you and us
going forward and whatever that process yields with respect to accountability
causes and effects will be something we can trust and
will benefit us all directly as we all move on down the road.
Amen.
Jan. 26, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Einstein, You have complimented me on a number of my posts so now I want to compliment you on yours.

I feel bad for you however, in that you would prefer not to play the game you love rather than to play under rules that both teams must play by--your team and your opponent. Certainly there have been rules in place in prior years that you didn't like but you didn't stop playing as a result.

You state that you have a number of teams that want you to play so they must believe that you still have game. Why would you quit.

I seem to recall that you have broken both arms. Is that right? I know one time you were on the mound. How did you break the other one?

I pitch quite often and I know with the hot bats that I could see a screamer come up the middle at any time. Not all hitters are pull hitters. Eliminating the limit on home runs would not eliminate balls hit up the middle. The current rule regarding hitting the pitcher would not eliminate that from occuring also.

I just really don't understand why someone who loves softball would quit over this.

Bob Schulz
Jan. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bob,
I'm not quitting softball though maybe I should and I've thought about retiring
as many to most of us do from time to time.
I'm quitting playing when the rules and fundamental game
I've been playing, gotten used to and have invested and enjoy
just like you and the rest of us gets changed
for reasons I don't believe in or support.
I'l probably play more softball this year
than any in the last couple as I have been recovering from serious injuries because
NCSSA or NorCal, check out their schedule on line,
will play tournaments just about every weekend within 100 miles from where I live
using 1.2 bats and the best 44 x 375 balls going, usually Dudley or Baden,
and sometimes like when Bob Sebring has anything to do with it
we use 47 x 525 balls and have a great time.
The stats have never shown that more injuries occur than normal
with 1.2 bats and NorCal, thanks mostly to Gary Tryhorn,
has lead and still leads the way in providing the most enjoyable tournaments
for seniors to play.
And the movement everywhere in Senior Tournaments both in California
and across the country is toward enfranchising the good ball/bat combo
with HR's as singles for years to come, just not with SSUSA in intention or application.

I broke the other arm pitching in a local night league
against 20 year old players.
Both times I got my arm broken
I wasn't paying attention to the batter as any pitcher should.
I would have gloved both of them had I been.
I have never had a pitch ooming at me when I was concentrating and ready
that I couldn't glove or block in some defensive manner.
As many players on line have said
if you want to pitch you must be ready to play defense
or don't step on the mound.
I love pitching.

Lastly, I think it's important Bob,
as I know you do to
to stand up for and to anyone you might think
is responsible for changes that are not in our best interests
or that simply aren't going to work.
Jan. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bob I forgot to mention that NCSSA or NorCal
we mix major and major plus 50, 55s and 60 together
compete effectively almost every weekend and have a blast.
We play 5 run innings with HR's as singles and
equalizer home runs right from the fist one.
Anyone can beat anyone else in any tournament
and we all know it and we have a blast.
Ooops, I already said that didn't I.
Thanks again to Gary Tryhorn, A/C Linde, Noel Lanctot,
Bob Sebring and many others in NCSSA
for all you've done and continue to do to help
us participate in and enjoy our sport.
Now, if I can only get them to go along with "Free defensive substitution".
Jan. 26, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Einstein, I appreciate you clarifying things. It's nice to have a variety of local tournaments to play in that still attact major and major plus teams. I am wintering in Texas north of Houston and getting to know some of the local guys. I am playing in the February 21 tournament here with some major and major plus teams participating. It would be nice to have this variety in the midwest. Right now in the midwest there is an occasional snowball tournament and they are not fun.
Jan. 26, 2009
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Hey Joe! It's your buddy bashbro1 up here in frigid Seattle 24 degrees Fahrenheit this morning. Okay, let me understand this...you're pitching and you get hit in the arm and your arm breaks...you get hit in the leg and your leg breaks...now what happens if you get hit in your neck?

bashbro1 (Ruth 60's Kent, WA)
Jan. 26, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
He finally gets a hickey...lol
Jan. 26, 2009
the wood
1075 posts
Re: the new rules
I am neutral when it comes to the new rules, HR and the others. As I have stated before, the logic behind these changes is flawed... i.e. if you make it 'easier' they will come...
Really? Who do we KNOW (teams) that have volunteered to move up? ...not just into M+ but into any higher level. I'm not counting those teams that were already moved up and look at the new rules as a means to provide company for them (as in misery loves company)... as an example, teams that claimed/claim to be M because of limited power or money.
Isn't the premise of 'enthusiastic move ups' paramount to the whole concept of the new rules? When I was drafted into the Army (US) they made us wear white patches on our fatigue shirts (infectious meningitis control, we were told). Only the guys in boot camp wore them so did the Army not care whether the other guys were menengitis free? Or was their reasoning totally disconnected to menengitis? If you were to google 'menengitis' looking for the types of things that are normally used to control it, I doubt that you'll see 'sew white patches on your shirts'. A fair analogy? Time will tell.
From what I'm hearing on the local level most of the cusp teams will either break up or will find some creative way to stay beneath the radar.
Does ANYONE know of a specific team that is embracing the new rules to the extent that they will move up with the kicking and screaming part?
I know of one and that is Joe Lecak's team (LAF), which stands for Life After Forty not a texting acronym.
BW
Jan. 26, 2009
the wood
1075 posts
My fault!
The next to last sentence should have read 'WITHOUT the kicking and screaming part'.
sorry...
BW
Jan. 26, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Hi Bob I appreciate the thoughts, LAF we're taking a wait and see approach, our roster is very interesting in that if you took a look at it not sure how someone could really determine what we are. I believe within our team itself you might get differing and strong opinions as to what rating we should have. SSUSA and the other rating members seem to believe that what you were determines what you are if that makes sense. I've tried to tell them and I got to do it in person if walks like a duck looks like a duck and sound like a duck it's a duck. Ridge, RB and Terry in my opinion need to get on board and decide that solid fundamentally sound teams who may or may not possess a lot of HR power are capable of playing in the upper divisions. Honestly a guy with a lot of HR power who can't run,can't field a little and is constantly hurt or tires on Sunday would not be someone we would entertain to play on our team. In some other eyes the amount and distance of the HR's would be the only thing that catches their attn.

Bob we're trying to be patient
Jan. 26, 2009
the wood
1075 posts
Joe, when you say that we're trying to be patient... who is WE? Your team, senior players at large or the Advisory Board?
BTW, were there any developments at the meeting, good or bad?
BW
Jan. 26, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Patience as it relates to my team.
Jan. 26, 2009
WOW
197 posts
Let the balls fly. NO LIMIT ON HOME RUNS any division. All the big boys will be happy and the rest of us that are lucky enough to hit one out won't be penalized.
A few yrs. ago, we won the Reno tourn. because in the bottom of the 7th. [we had a 1 or 2 run lead], with 2 outs, and 2 runners on, our opponent hits one over the fence for the 3rd. out. Yes we won, but did we really!!!
Jan. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bash you magnificent animal,
How's life in the not so frozen northwest?
Tell the Barista girls I love and miss 'em and am willing to wax-off all my back hair
if one of 'em wants to come visit me in SF but the excessive
snoring, nose and ear hair
and bed wetting all stay as is.

OK. I give up?
A pain in the neck?
Let me know if I won and what prize I'll be getting.
Stay cool, Bash.
James G thinks you're a terrific softball guy.
Jan. 26, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Einstein, You have broke both arms AND a leg from batted balls? How many times have you been hit while pitching?

I must admit I have been hit a number of times while pitching also. My question to you is that you wrote that it is your fault when you get hit. Do you really believe if a good power-hitter comes up the middle you could catch the ball and it is just a matter of being ready? Or is it because you don't want Clatterbaugh or some other middle hitter to come at you again? Do you think it makes a difference to them? I know you challenge hitters at third when you play there. Don't you have any worry about the hitter when you are on the mound? Is this the main reason you are opposed to the new home run limit?

I really am curious because I know I'm not the only pitcher that has concerns on the mound. Just saying sorry doesn't cut it with me. Are we heading back to bat wars to protect our own pitchers? Is there any other solution?
Jan. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bob,
The leg injury that nearly ended my career is a hamstring tear
actually a double tear both high and low from going back in to pitch
and beat the Mavericks for the 50 major plus championship in Las Vegas
a couple of years ago.
Mike Adair was with the Mavericks then and they almost came back
from being down 15 runs in the last inning to pull it out.
Tim Reed was umpiring and did as I've said before
a terrific job behind the plate in as contentious and competitive a match
as one could imagine for a 50 major plus national title.

Clatter, I love him but he was lucky
I wasn't anticipating him hitting the ball anywhere near me
or he'd have gone directly to the bench, 0 for 1.
I assumed his world class bat control and it being a seeding game
and us being friends provided me with immunity.
Foolish on my part and not being fair to both Clatta and the game
by letting me guard down.
I don't believe a power hitter can hit the ball hard enough that I can't glove on it.
If I did I wouldn't/couldn't take the mound again.
It's about anticipating that every ball will be hit directly at you.
It's what I did/used at 3rd base that helped me develop into a very good 3rd baseman.

I've been off my game in the last 2 years
because of my leg injury and subsequent poor conditioning
and being new to pitching (4 years) I still watch the ball too long
which I've learned is a problem many pitchers have to deal with.
I've been blessed with quick reflexes and I know in my heart
I can glove and/or protect my face and head from any serious injury.
I also got hit on the jaw in Phoenix last year,
me and Goodman's pitcher, but I had just walked from the car to the mound
without any warm up wasn't really into the game yet.

I'm more concerned about the sun being in my eyes early morning and let evening
and the way the optic yellow balls blend into anything leafy and green in the background.
If I (you) can see the ball clearly hit off the bat
and your paying attention if not anticipating the ball coming back at you
a pitcher should glove every ball hit above his waist.
If not, don't pitch;.
The ball that can eat anyone one up
is the bullet that bounces first and
there's no way anyone can defend against it.
It's just part of the game...
not unlike the ball that knocked
the world class shortstop, Butch Hayes out
in Phoenix last year.
By the way, Butchie came back to deliver
the game/tournament winning hit hours later.
A great player and a better man.
Thanks for the questions and the oppty to answer them, Bob.
Stay cool and I hope to see you somewhere soon, down the road.
Jan. 26, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Einstein, Now I find out you were hit in the jaw. What next? I know what your writing about when you state you watched your pitch too long. Sometimes you want to measure your distance by watching the arch and other times measuring the wind for accuracy. Then before you know it you're surprised that the pitch is coming back at you and you didn't get set for defense. However, I still believe there isn't a pitcher in senior ball who can properly defend for a line shot coming from certain power hitters with an Ultra or Machenkos Combat. Time will tell unfortunately.
Jan. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bob,

A player can be hit and be killed regardless of the ball
unless we're playing with wet sponges or pillows
an idea worth pursuing in some co-ed situations.
Eventually, someone will get hurt badly
but what's it going to prove, Bob?
Softball has risks?
If you go with the new ball
we will lose the joy of hitting the ball hard and square and being rewarded
with it going fast and hard somewhere
effectively emasculating or neutering the hitters.
The game is not enjoyable enough to play if the bat/ball combo
doesn't allow the ball to be go well and hard by striking it well and hard.
It simply is not regardless of how many other problems it may solve.
To me and the majority of others
this is axiomatic, a 1-1 correlation with the enjoyment of the game.

I had the good luck to play early in my career with Charlie Pierce
well before his retirement.
I have never seen a better hitter, better hitting skills than the "Toy Cannon'.
He could hit the ball hard to any field, on the ground, through a hole,
in a gap or out the park, seemingly at will.
He would be hamstrung to be anywhere near as effective
with the new ball that doesn't reward the batter hitting it square and hard.

I believe Dave and Terry really want what is best for us
who have played in their tournaments all our careers
and it would be good to let them know directly what it is we both want and need
so we can continue on down the road together.
HR's as outs and the threat of the new ball taking are simply not
in our best interests
Jan. 26, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
For the record Einstein was a man that day. We thought him coming back into the game was a good thing for us, but not only did he pitch well, but he was making plays, on one leg.
Jan. 26, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
I just hope we don't read something like this in the future:
SSWC is the first national org to use a NEW ball type, Brand X.

We've all made mistakes doing something, learning something form those mistakes is what makes the difference. Maybe that's why there are so many repeat offenders in jail, they never learn.
Jan. 26, 2009
Cliff 21
Men's 55
13 posts
Einstein:

In regard to your first thread on this post. I'm wondering if your "sadness" is not the result of a long overdue realization that maybe your crusade about "hitting the ball long & far" being all-important and maintaining bat/ball combinations doesn't reprsent the opinions of as many senior softball players as you believed. There are in fact many players, even major-plus players such as myself, that read but rarely post on this board.

I have played some form of ball all my life and have always been a defensively oriented base-hitter. Yet I agree with you that it is unfortunate that rules such as home-run limits, not to mention subsequent outs be even considered. Is there any part of ball that captures the essence more than the home-run. But how can you in good conscience refer to "fixing problems that don't exist"? You speak of your love for senior softball..... would you put your unquenchable thirst for hitting the ball long & far above the very REAL problems that exist in senior softball? Problems such as attending five tounaments last season with not a single 55 major-plus team to play. Or not a single 50 or 55 major plus team attending the TOC.

No one can argue that technology (bats) is responsible for this dilema of what to do. Hell even I hit a few out now with my Machenko and THAT shouldn't be. Maybe if fences could be moved back at all the complexes across the country every time a new hotter bat came out.... not going to happen.

Look Joe I'm a couple years younger than you and when I was new to senior ball watched you play at Dubuque with Kelly's and thought you to be the most "complete" player I had seen. I also admired as you took a called third strike one time against us, an arguably illegal pitch yet you bit your tongue about it. You and your passion for ball are what senior softball is all about. Please join the real majority, the majority that would put the welfare of senior softball above all else, even if it means considering home runs out, or a different ball, or whatever. For our game.

Sincerely,
Cliff Noble
Jan. 26, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
Bob50, I see you are playing in Pasadena on Feb 21-22. With whom are you playing? I'll be with Boaz and would like to meet a fellow board member. I'm #10 and manage the team and play a little.
Jan. 26, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Einstein, I know you write what you mean and I know you are for hot bat/ball combinations. However, honestly I am prepared to take risks but not unnecessary ones.

Cliff, Well written buddy. I was going to mess with you but decided to be nice.

Double L, Jim Tharp invited me to play with him. Does that mean we are teammates? If so, Greg Thomas told me he has us playing in the top bracket against Hendricks, Team Houston and a couple of other real good teams. I'm looking forward to it. I'm living north of Houston over the winter. This is my first winter here and I am playing winter league and enjoying it. It's pretty good for a Chicago area guy to get to play winter ball and not be in a dome. Double L--what's your name? Larry Lopez? If so we spoke about a month ago.

Bob Schulz
Jan. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Cliff,
What a classy post.
Thanks for the complements.
Thanks for making me feel good.

We played the most competitive, most enjoyable tournament
of my senior career at the 50 major in Phoenix last year.
20 freakin' 6 teams including a team that can hit with the Mavericks
any day and they finished around 10th or so.
Why change the character of what we all experienced there?

Cliff, I don't think the welfare of senior ball is being served well
by making HR's outs and going to an altered ball that will detract
significantly from everyone's hitting experience especailly the majority
of hitters who are not home run but contact hitters who rely on the pace
of the ball hit to be successful.
The new ball will NOT respond well to being hit flat and square.
It's the one characteristic that everyone who's hit them
and commented on them seem to agree on.
And SSUSA is wanting to work that ball in if not the end of this year
then for next year, again.

HR's as outs changes the character of long ball hitters approach to hitting
at the expense of the infielders, especially the pitcher.

I seriously think that a plan has been put in place to go to a new bat/ball combo
either in one step which almost happened or in 2 steps by making the HR's outs
causing the big guys to send missiles through the infield
and causing the TD's and players to want to go to a slower ball.
Intended and/or unintended the powers that primarily influence
the administration of SSUSA seem bent on the movement
to dumb down our equipment and experience in senior ball.
This phenomenon Cliff, will disaffect the welfare of senior softball
if allowed to come into being.

So, Cliff, with affection and respect
I disagree with you, importantly about what's best for senior softball
and from whence the new changes and the new ball come.
From those who play senior ball or not?
I will accept the view of the majority of senior players
on any issue but not the seemingly arbitrary decision of just a few
self interested and/or insulated albeit powerful members of our community.

If you want to continue this discussion so as not to overly occupy
important website attention please email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
and thanks again for your post and comments.
Jan. 26, 2009
Cliff 21
Men's 55
13 posts
Oops, meant to say DesMoines......get those big cities in Iowa that start with D mixed up.
Cliff
Jan. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I'm getting so old I thought I remembered playing in DeBuque, too.
A rose by another name still smells as sweet, Cliff.
You're a peach.
Email me sometime and we can talk.
Jan. 27, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
I always thought of Cliff as a peach.
Jan. 27, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
DoubleL10,

What is being played in Pasadena?
Jan. 27, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
Anybody, What is being played in Pasadena 2/21-22?
Jan. 27, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
It's Pasadena, Texas. February 21 and maybe 22. 26 teams. Tournament is full.
Jan. 27, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
Bob50, You are correct. If you click on my board name, my name and location information comes up. I am in Oklahoma City now but I will be in Texas for this tournament. If Jim Tharp asked you to play with him, we will be teammates. I remember speaking with you a few weeks ago and recognized your name on this site. Looking forward to meeting you.

Mike, sorry for the confusion. As you've seen, we are playing in Pasadena, TX - not CA. However, if you'd like to fly out to join us(LOL), I'm sure you'd like to play against Hendricks again! Since we are a 60 team, we are at a distinct disadvantage!
Jan. 27, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
Thx. My wife has me on a strict budget. I am going to be playing in Anaheim that weekend. Who is Joe Smith playing for now. He caught more balls of mine than I want to remember.
Jan. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Cliff,
I'm going to go on record for any future reference that most players and
that means the majority whether seniors or not,
are not verbal on websites but don't want the fundamental enjoyment
of hitting a ball hard and well which will be compromised
by HR's to DBOs and "new" balls that will punish the hitter
for hitting the ball hard and square.
There is NO doubt in my mind about this,
this is a "no brainer"
and that is why the new regs and equipment to come
will not be received well or endure without great consternation and disappointment.
We are being driven by merchandising and administrative concerns
who's reps are self interested and insulated
that don't reflect us directly or our best interests.

Most players don't say what their thinking and feeling
especially when its controversial for a variety of reasons
but it takes a true senior player to know what other senior players are about
and what it takes to fundamentally enjoy our game.
Jan. 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Bob50, You only thought of Cliff as being a peach because you roomed with him.
Jan. 27, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
One of the things that attracted me to slowpich back in 1973 was the fact that the pitcher stood in front of you and threw the ball underhand so you could hit the ball as hard as you could. The goal was to gemerate as much bat speed as possible to hit it hard and far as you could. I still get the same feeling when I catch one pure and I am sure many if not most feel the same way. Why should it be an out when you as a hitter do everything right? There have been some great posts on this topic and reading them each day gets me pumped up for the 2009 season.
Thank You:
James
Jan. 27, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
One of the things that attracted me to slowpich back in 1973 was the fact that the pitcher stood in front of you and threw the ball underhand so you could hit the ball as hard and as you could. The goal was to generate as much bat speed as possible to hit it as hard as you could. If the ball went over the fence "great" I still get the same feeling when I catch one pure and I am sure many if not most feel the same way. Why should it be an out now when you as a hitter do everything right? There have been some great posts on this topic and reading them each day gets me pumped up for the 2009 season.
Thank You:
James
Jan. 27, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
Sorry everybody, the first post should not have been sent.

James
Jan. 28, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
Major + - Unlimited
Major - 7 and then singles
AAA - 3 and then walks
AA - 1 and then outs

pretty simple
Jan. 28, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Corky, I agree all the way with you, it's that simple.
Jan. 28, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
What are these NCSSA ot NorCal tournaments that Einstein speaks of in an earlier post? We would be interested in partipating in some of these events using the old rules. Is this just an idea or is there an actual list of these type of tournaments available somewhere?
Jan. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
If you punch in NCSSA on your search engine
you'll see us in the top 3
and search the menu for this years tournaments.
You'll be knocked out.
Jan. 29, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Corky... theoretically interesting... unfortunately your idea will not increase participation at the Major+ level, which is one of the goals.
Jan. 29, 2009
cpope
Men's 60
160 posts
Major + - Unlimited
Major - 7 and then singles
AAA - 3 and then walks
AA - 1 and then outs

Corky, I like it also, maybe that would make better players play up more often.

Another way; Instead of 1 HR and than 1 up, make it 3 HR and then 3 up. When both teams are HR hitters that almost can get as many as they want. When 1 team hits HR and the other team is not, the HR hitting team can never hit more that 3 more than the other.

But to make it an out puts the pitcher in danger more often.
Let the guys that work hard to hit the long ball be able to do so freely.
Maybe us guys that rely on the U2 to go yard would get into better shape.
Jan. 29, 2009
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Major +: 12, then to infinity.
Major: 6, then doubles.
AAA: 3, then singles.
AA: 0, then outs.

Bashbro1 (Ruth 60ís Now Major+ Kent, WA)
Jan. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bash,
Neat grid with lots of merit.
Charles,
We play equalizer HRs starting at one
and it really shows who plays/hits/defends best
that day cause Big Hitters can't run away with the game.
Singles guys can often prevail and the big guys
can always go out with HR's as singles/walks
which tends to keep pitchers safe and Big guys happy.
Why change what we know works
for something new and different that won't?
Who or what could be motivating someone to make such a decision?
Follow the money and connect the dots as/if you really want to know.
Jan. 29, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
#19 Given the number of Major+ teams, why do we cater to the few. Seems like the task force should be from the ranks of the majority. Its not like we don't know as much about the game......we just may not play at the same skill level.
(and thats a matter of opinion). It seems Major+ is all about HR's. Give me a team full of good defensive players that hit over .750 and we could play Major+.
Jan. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Corky, you're right.
There's no doubt in my mind
that a team of good to very good defenders
including a guy who can really pitch and keep hitters off balance
can all be singles hitters
and play the Mavericks 50 major plus guys
(Sorry Mango and Bull but it's true) even or better every time
if the runs per inning are limited
home runs are equalized from 1
and over the limit home runs are walks/singles.
It's desire and confidence that makes a great player
in competitive terms much more than skill and power
and money, size and skill don't necessarily correlate
to winning and being the best on any given day.
Jan. 29, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Corky... I tend to agree with you... But it seems to be the Major+ teams who cry about the lack of other Major+ teams at tournaments... At the same time, some of them try to protect their turf when it comes to home runs... If they want more Major+ teams, something has to change to produce them... a home run limit with outs would appear to be a playing-field leveler that could lead to more Major+ teams playing at a competitive level.
Jan. 29, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Corky we're in the same age group you made a sweeping generalization have you played my team, the Mavericks, Goodman racing, in your area I think Gekle is attempting to rely less on the long ball, I watched Coors Light in Phoenix they did not seem to rely on the long ball, I've been told Windy City in your area is not a particularly HR oriented, Fredericks in PA I don't believe relies on the HR, There are a couple others that I can't speak for but on the whole in the 50's the long ball is just a normal component of what these teams do. The problem as I see it if the major plus dwindles to where most teams don't see this as viable the players will continue to play just a matter of with who and in what division.
Jan. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Joe,
You and I played together in the 26 team event in Phoenix
and shared in the joy of knocking out the powerhouse that Gekel was and is.
Those guys can hit with the Mavericks any day.
The problems of Major plus don't have to be dealt with with changing the fundamental chemistry of our game.
Just limit the runs per inning,
equalize the home runs at 1
and over the limit HRs should be singles/walks
and if Mavericks have the best guys, play the best that day
then they might win.
It's possible that the vaunted Major plus don't want to be made
to look like they aren't as good as they think they are
and compete with equalizer rules.
If it's about competition as some posters suggest then
that's the most competitive it can be and we don't have the change
the balls/or HR rules dramatically regardless of who or why
we've been influenced to think so.
Jan. 29, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Joe that was some scrum in Phoenix. Great event hoepfully this can be duplicated in some fashion everyone should have an opportunity to play in a large, strong and diverse field of teams at least once a year.
Jan. 29, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
Lecak: yes i know and have played against Geckle and Coors Light before they were moved up. And yes they relied heavily on the home run. (and boy did they hit some bombs). Windy City (or the best of the Chicago Classics) does as well. The only team in our area that play at that level and seem lesss dependent on the HR are teams like Travel Lodge, Jags, and to some degree MoTown stars. If the cream really rises to the top.......then the TEAMS and win consistently (with or without HR's) should move up.
Jan. 29, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
sorry should have proof read the post:
The TEAMS that win consistently (with or without HR's) should be moved up. Sorry
Jan. 29, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Einstein and Joe hope your having a good winter and hope all is well with you two and your families.
Personally I'm looking forward to m+ next year. I played it 2 yearsb ago with Motown and enjoyed every second of it--great exercise running the of!! If they have the same amount of teams they've had the last couple years we'll end up playing major teams in the feed in games irregardless--which is is just as tough if not tougher. .
Except for me we'll still have the power (someone has to get on base for the big fellas!!) for m+ but hopefully we'll land the guys that we're going after who will shore up our defense. Good hitting teams are going to hit but the teams that make the routine defensive plays they should make are the ones that will win. Offense wins you games defense wins you championships.
I'm not opposed to limiting runs per inning and then the open inning but perhaps at the m+ level maybe up it to 7 runs/inning? I think it was that way when we played you guys in Vegas? It seemed reasonable to me.
Still cold and snowy here in Michigan--anxiously awaiting the spring. Must be nice living in the warm climate year 'round. haha
stick
Jan. 30, 2009
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
Stick, i like your ideas on the game go defense. Guess that says i'm one of the little guys on the Coors Light team. Not sure of our schedule yet. The beers in the parking lot still stand. Man we got 8" of snow mon. night and put us in a tizzy,i know thats nothing for you guys up there. Was down in S. Missouri yesterday checking on some of my overhead crews restoring power there and it looks like bomb went off. Take care and see you when it warms up. Lazer Larry
Jan. 30, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Larry you can be assured me and my better half will take you up on those beers. She still can't believe how you all guys (and girls) can drink like that!! Do you do that in he winter also? lol
I think we have 5 tourneys penciled in so far and might add 1 or 2. Plus I still play u-trip with the youngens and umpire so it'll be a busy summer for me.
It may be hard for you to believe but where I'm at (about 20 miles south of Detroit) we usually don't get the major snow that other parts of Michigan get. Our ususal pattern is we get one blast and nothing for a month to 6 weeks. This year we're getting 1 or 2 blasts a week!! Oh well, I guess it'll make the spring and summer that much sweeter and something to look even more forward to.
Stay safe and healthy and see ya in a few months. Stick
Jan. 30, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Stick8 we are planning on coming out to Chicago in July. It's on the schedule. Trying to talk Goodman Racing into attending as well as the Mavericks, I passed our schedules and a couple of others onto their manager as I get them. We are hoping Windy City, yourselves,and Coors Light will be there and I think the Fredericks guys said they would take a look and maybe Sweet Construction. It was Chicago or SPA alot of our guys enjoy the big cities, so Chicago it is. Maybe with the impending moveups this can be an 8 or 10 team tourney. I'm sure you don't want to hear this but we have had a really great run of weather our spring should start shortly.
Feb. 1, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Joe the tournament in Schaumburg (Chicago) is on our schedule. It would be neat if all the teams you elluded to could make the trip--it'd be one hell of a tournament!!. From what I know it appears that Vegas and Phoenix are a go for us also.
Speaking of Phoenix, I've been hearing about their weather from a vendor of mine out there. He also says the town is all fired up for the Super Bowl. Great weather & a super bowl team compared to sh---y weather & an 0-16 football team. That's just not right!! Hope you and yours are healthy and see ya soon!
Feb. 2, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Einstein my friend,I feel your pain.I know there has been some talk of us (Gekle)retooling some to better match the rules.But I have to ask myself,should I have to get rid guys on my team because they are 6'4'' 305 and are pure home run hitters because of limitations.Where do they play,We are playing M+ but still we have limitations.Because we have brideled our biggest and best now do we start another rating for these guys M++ and allienate another group of willing participants.Not only are these guys big but they are also my friends and the reason I spend countless hours and dollars to participate in senior softball.They ask us to move up O.K. we did now they say lets change the rules now your here to make your team obsolete.I have not been involved in much of the chatter about this subject.But after seeing the affects of these rule changes to my players and friends like einstein I wonder where we are going from here.I hope we get this right.Or M+ plus might go down to 16 teams.I have a Bass boat, 9 sec. drag car,and a perfectly good set of golf clubs collecting dust.And have fun with all of them if softball is no longer any fun guess where I will be.

Ray Morgan
Gekle Builders
Feb. 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Ray,
How's weathering the winter going?
You've got the best attitude about all this stuff.
You're competitive, fair, fun and nobody's fool.
Some people need to be reminded that
ust because you own
something doesn't make you right
regarding it, its best sense or traditions.
Think George Steinbrenner and the Yankees.
Say hi to Reedus for me.
Feb. 2, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
Ray:

Great post and from your choice of words one can tell it was from your heart. I had a few nice pro street cars I let go because I did not have the time to play softball and tinker with a hot rod. I wish the 48 Anlia was still in the garage.
Thanks:
James
Feb. 2, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Einstein the snow is knee deep and super sunday was our first day above freezing in two weeks other than that things are grand.Trying to put roster together for 09 having hard time getting rid of guys as you might have noticed i am a sucker for big catchers we already have 9 catchers and Stick and Sully in the outfield and i have my eye on a couple more so 11 catchers and two out fielders for next year surly this new homerun rule won't help us.James thanks for the comments.I have a 87 SS Aero Coupe Monte Carlo,back halfed with a 414 stroker best pass 9.91 @ 142 mph.All motor no laugh'in gas.Good luck this year.

Ray
Feb. 2, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts

Ray:
That is fast with no bottle or power adder. The Anglia was a high 10 second street car. 355 roller motor but only 2,400 lbs. I had faster cars but never a 9 second car. I do like the lines on the 87 Monty, what size converter do you run?
Thanks:
James
Feb. 2, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
I have several photos of different Anglias that ran at Yellow River Dragway, just east of Atlanta, back in 1968. I also have a Poloroid of Houston Platt just as he lost it, crashing through the crowd, killing about 25. The last race at Yellow River. Sad day for drag racing and all involved.
Feb. 2, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
James it's a 10 inch converter custom by Coan car wt. 2912# w/ford 9 inch.
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