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Discussion: What does a true Major Plus team look like?

Posted Discussion
Jan. 16, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
What does a true Major Plus team look like?
I would like to know what a true major plus team looks like. Let me give a perspective. I could take a fresh 50 year old with some good athletic skills and drop him in a tourney with major plus teams in it and that brand new player would most likely do just fine and look forward to the next tourney and that would be that. Take a seasoned senior who hasn't played M+ and tell them they now have to compete at Major plus and all hell breaks loose.
Jan. 16, 2009
the wood
1079 posts
Bingo!
Jan. 16, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
Agreed. Besides why wouldn't you want to compete at the best level possible?
Jan. 16, 2009
The Noble 1
Men's 60
3 posts
Joe! How the hell are you!! Glad to see you're still banging the ball around. I disagree however. The seasoned senior ballplayer would most likely place the ball and do well ie maximize his abilities. It may look ugly but, it's a hit.
Jan. 16, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
This has to be Bob Noble from Jersey. Hope all is well, yeah that would be you placing the ball and driving teams nuts.
Jan. 16, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Lecak,
My apology if you took what I said on the other post wrong. I was trying to explain why SSUSA was changing the rules to try and put everyone on a level playing field. This will make teams that are moved up competitive whether they have a lot of money or not. This will increase the number of teams in Major Plus. Hopefully this year we will be able to have other teams at the tourney besides us. I'm not saying we are NOT a major plus team but unlike the teams I mentioned we were not put together to be Major Plus team. There are certain teams that have been put together just to play major plus which is great but the new rules will give us all an even playing field. I sometimes get a little upset with all the crying about the new rules and think I need to stick up for all of us including the organizations without them none of us would be playing and contrary to some peoples believe are trying to make it better for all. Let them yell at me as Doc Holliday said to Johnny Ringo "I'll be your huckleberry". Butch
Jan. 16, 2009
The Noble 1
Men's 60
3 posts
Joe! How the hell are you!! Glad to see you're still banging the ball around. I disagree however. The seasoned senior ballplayer would most likely place the ball and do well ie maximize his abilities. It may look ugly but, it's a hit.
Jan. 16, 2009
#45inMd
Men's 60
108 posts
Putting that seasoned senior on a M+ TEAM and all will be good, Take that seasoned senior and drop his whole team of AA, AAA or Major players, thats when all hell will break out. Major plus team are the best of the best but the average Major with little power now thats a differnt story.
Jan. 16, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
Hey Huckleberry. good post.
Jan. 16, 2009
The Noble 1
Men's 60
3 posts
Absolutely, 1-2 players is a totally different situation than a whole team.
Jan. 16, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
I still don't see any definition of what a true major plus team looks like. 45inMD major and major plus are criss/crossing in the 50's just like it was our southern border. Major one year major plus the next. Major plus one year major the next. Why is that so?
Jan. 16, 2009
#45inMd
Men's 60
108 posts
Lacak, That so I think because the average Major has 2 meybe 3 homerun hitters and some other that can sometimes hit a homerun but are good base hitters. Most Major plus teams I see have 7 or 8 homerun hitters and most other can (not all can) hit homeruns. Major teams get move up if they win a small major tourney with all close games then get moved up and cannot win a game. I played 50 Major last year and know a lot of Major plus players/teams. They are Major plus because they are the best players. My team plays league together and does not pick-up players for tourney. So it is hard to play a Major plus team of the best of the best. I do think homeruns should not be outs, walks are ok but a team without a lot of power can not catch a ball that is hit out and that is what Major plus does not a true Major team.
Jan. 17, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
#45in MD I don't have the experience you do, can you physically describe what these 7 or 8 players look like are the 6'6" and 280 lbs? Do they plod around the bases or for their size run like deer? How would describe their glove work? Are they C/EH types? Do the outfielders have Roberto Clemente type arms? How doe they get found to end up on these super teams? Is there an NFL type draft? With the big budgets they must have a scouting dept? Here is what I see I don't know you and you don't know me but the guys I see are just like me and you. They are probably friends from years gone by or somebody saw someone in league. Or you know Joe Blow used to play A ball back in the day I wonder if he is still in shape, or did you see that shortstop from so and so on that AAA team wonder what he is doing this year. Or I heard so and so's major team broke up wonder if he will play with us. Or the one I use so and so will be turning 49 in November from his 40 team lets see if he wants to play some senior ball. Good Luck this year and to everyone out there more than likely your team is probably not on the radar screen to be moved up if that is what SSUSA's intentions are.
Jan. 17, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
#45in MD I don't have the experience you do, can you physically describe what these 7 or 8 players look like are the 6'6" and 280 lbs? Do they plod around the bases or for their size run like deer? How would describe their glove work? Are they C/EH types? Do the outfielders have Roberto Clemente type arms? How doe they get found to end up on these super teams? Is there an NFL type draft? With the big budgets they must have a scouting dept? Here is what I see I don't know you and you don't know me but the guys I see are just like me and you. They are probably friends from years gone by or somebody saw someone in league. Or you know Joe Blow used to play A ball back in the day I wonder if he is still in shape, or did you see that shortstop from so and so on that AAA team wonder what he is doing this year. Or I heard so and so's major team broke up wonder if he will play with us. Or the one I use so and so will be turning 49 in November from his 40 team lets see if he wants to play some senior ball. Good Luck this year and to everyone out there more than likely your team is probably not on the radar screen to be moved up if that is what SSUSA's intentions are.
Jan. 17, 2009
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
45inMD, I think you did a good job describing the differences between Major and Major plus. My first year in Major was great. Then we went to Major plus. We had a home run hitter (phil) and eveyone else could but not when they wanted to. We won three major plus tourneys,
all using ASA bats. When we played using senior bats, we never had a chance. It's amazing what differnce the bats make.
Jan. 17, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Wagon,
Consistent run scoring ability, is what you guys did well. You had guys that produced from top to bottom. You had some very good defensive players, and good pitching, but I think the key to your success was very consistent hitters. I think the same could be said about Frederick Chev. Very consistent hitters from top to bottom. So, it may not be as much about home run hitting, as it is about run production. I may be wrong but I believe teams can get moved up based on the ammount of runs they score in tournament games even if they finish second.
Jan. 17, 2009
Mr. Manassas
227 posts
I wonder if a program could be put into operation in Senior softball that would have all teams register and list their results(with scores) that could be used to adjust rankings. You could almost develop a handicap that could be used similar to bowling or golf. Of course you would have to have a minimum number of games to be ranked.
Jan. 17, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
To me there's 3 types of major plus teams one has a sponsor that pays all or most of player travel exp's and manger recruits trying to find the best players at every position. #2 are the teams that pay for most or all travel exp's and hand pick player's from their home state and bordering states #3 are the local league teams like our team and 45inMd team and most major,aaa & aa teams in senior softball. 2009 will be my 14th year in senior ball last 5 as player manger and I feel that the #3 teams will not be able to consistently compete against #1&2 no matter how the rules are changed. One of the changes is to allow 1 out of area exemption and to reinstate the snowbird rule this is not going to help our team or most #3 teams. Just my 2 cents
Jan. 17, 2009
Mr. Manassas
227 posts
I wonder if a program could be put into operation in Senior softball that would have all teams register and list their results(with scores) that could be used to adjust rankings. You could almost develop a handicap that could be used similar to bowling or golf. Of course you would have to have a minimum number of games to be ranked.
Jan. 17, 2009
Mr. Manassas
227 posts
The truth of the matter is that all teams are looking to play in tournaments with a chance to win. There are to many teams looking to play down and dominate. Iam not sure that there is one trait that denotes a major plus team. I suppose run scoring potential is a good way to seperate teams and that's where my registering of all teams and their results could be used. Of course we have all seen the team that tries to lose so they will not be put up in the top division. I can relate to the tourny director's proplem of ranking teams.
Jan. 17, 2009
the wood
1079 posts
John Bob:
If your team is in the # 3 category, and you're struggling to compete, why would you advocate roster expansions (i.e. snowbird & one exempt player)? If this were allowed as it currently is, which teams would/will benefit most?
Did I misread your post?
Btw, one team that was/is in the # 3 group dominated the 55 & 60 M+ divisions for several years. Winning a couple of events each year isn't the same as dominating. They dominated. Apparenlt its players weren't thinking about finances when they were playing. They were like the carbon atom, they were everywhere.... coast to coast on their own dime.
And for all of you that hold on to the theory that M+ players are all 5 star guys, their players were a curious mix of players from different levels of play. Did I mention that they dominated?
There is a 'moral of the story' here. You can either let go of that myth and become as good as you can be or you can take shelter in your status quo... i.e. if you do what you did, you'll get what you got.
It's a choice every team has... in every age, gender and skill level. 'Invest' more into playing game properly than in how many HRs you hit... the latter will take care of itself.
BW
Jan. 17, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Lecak : using your train of thought that they are like you and me maybe there should be just one division like our younger days. Just put all the teams in no classes and have one big tourney. I have friends in all classes of senior ball that probaly would not play under the above set of rules. I personally think it is great to see them out there playing a game they enjoy and love as much if not more than some of the other players. Let us not forget this is just a game and the most important part is the people and friends you make all over the country when we play. To all players have a safe and enjoyable 09.
Jan. 17, 2009
#45inMd
Men's 60
108 posts
Lecak, Do I think all M+ players can not play D? Hell no..Do I think all M+ players are 6'6" 280lbs? Hell no.. Do I think most M+ players are the the best players playing? Hell yes.. They work at it the most. Does that make the rest bad senior players? Hell no.. Maybe the rest do not work as hard as M+ players do. But they still love the game and love to play with the same guys they play league with. They also love to play tourney together. I hope that is not bad? Major plus players come in all sizes as you know Lecak. I have played with a lot of M+ players on my Major teams but sometimes they move on to play on to play on a M+ teams. That good for them because we are still good friends and i will stop by and root for them to win.
Jan. 17, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
Butch I'm not advocating one division. What I am saying is three team divisions in what is supposed to be the premier event in softball doesn't make sense. I'm a numbers guys and what those numbers tell is that there are only 30 players who have the proper skill set, I can't buy it. Also if you read my previous posts the 55''s and 60's that cement may have hardened that's up to you guys to make of it what you want it really doesn't impact me. I really don't care if you have no teams. I am going to make a positive contribution to my age group though and hopefully that carries through my playing years. Butch and the rest here is another little theory of mine I would contend that upper division softball is safer. I had an umpire tell me once he was a horrible E umpire and a great open umpire. WIth the E's he would try to be in position to make a call and the runners, ball etc would be all over the place and he was always out of position, with the uppers he could anticipate where to be and bingo there they or the ball were. I think this works for the players and game itself.
Jan. 17, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
wood , the out of area exemption & snowbird rule will not help our team we are a local team all living within 25 miles of each other. We are not struggling to compete in the major division that we are rated in but feel that we can not compete against the teams in the #1 & #2 category. We spend the first half of 08 in 55 major+ and one of betweenthe biggest difference in m & m+ were arms in the outfield it was like nite & day. The team you referred to that dominated 55's & now are doing same in 60's may be paying their own way but are they not recruiting from bordering states?
Jan. 17, 2009
Gary Heifner
248 posts
My team is a very good 60+ AA team moving up to 65+ next year. Our ventures into the AAA level has, overall, been a losing proposition. In a number of tournies, we have had to play major or major plus teams. From my observation, they all have terrific shortstops and 3rd basemen. They have 4 outfielders that can run and throw. Their big jelly bellies, IF they have some, are huge men who kill the ball and play pitcher, catcher or 1st base. Their 11 hitter is as good as the leadoff guy. At the AA level, our SS and 3rd baseman play normal and the outfielders play around 250' or so. When we play against these M and M+ teams our SS and 3rd baseman are on the grass and the outfielders have a foot on the warning track. You also get a feeling their pretty good when the 8 hitter gets 3 xtra base hits left handed and in his 4th trip up switches to right handed and hits the ball 40' over the center field scoreboard. You also get the feeling they are really good when their roster is made up from stealing the 1 or 2 best players from 6 or 8 other teams and the bench players were the 3 or 4 hitters on a team the year before. . If the truth were to come out, I think most of these really top M+ teams and many of the M teams have been carefully assembled. I think this is the main reason the elite have no one to play. They have added too many great players and as a result they have isolated themselves from the VAST majority of the teams, that are , in truth, average talented senior teams. Sometimes you have to sleep in the bed you make. P.S. In regards to playing these top teams. we were very into and very competitive with them during warm-ups and then there was that, rule required,1st pitch! You all know what it is like to shag balls during batting practice.
Jan. 18, 2009
the wood
1079 posts
JohnBob:
As you probably know, the out of area player rule, as we now know it, has only been around for the past 2 years. There was one assn that allowed it in '06 but it was essentially a well kept secret.
So while they were a 55 team they dominated from 2000-2004... w/o the exempt player. They became a 60 team in 2004 (had both a 55 and a 60 team in '04 & '05). In 2004-2006, they were clearly the best 60 team... Since then, 2007-2008, Turn Two has been.
So, it could be said that the rule hasn't helped them... a matter of opinion. I suppose.
The rule = exempt player rule = 1-2 out of area player/players... this rule varied from assn to assn.
Long story made longer... a lot of teams/managers/players sell themselves short and thereby limit their own possibilities. While your team only has a player radius of 25 miles, this can also be perceived as a positive. You can easily get everyone together for a practice and, as you said, league play. Conversely, we have players that are 400 miles apart.
I don't know the name of your team but the '25 mile roster' doesn't fit the prototype for M+... good luck to you.
BW
Jan. 19, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
the wood, Thanks for the info I did not know the out of area rule was are ready in effect thought it was just put in for 09. I knew that the 60 m+ team that has dominated last few years was Turn 2 saw them play in Tulsa last year very impressive team. I was fortunate enough to play with Butch Hayes in the mid 90's when I first started playing senior ball great player and even better person. Your right on there being some advantages by our players living in same area we have league play twice a week and get together a couple times each winter for meeting. We have great team chemistry and have a good time when we go away to tourneys win or lose. Th
Jan. 19, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
Sorry last message posted before i proof read or did spell check that's what i get for watching game on TV at same time. Anyway wood I play 3rd base for Jim & Joe's/Williams Foods we are moving to 60's this year will be in Dalton for SPA, Tn for ISA and Phoenix in Oct. Have a good year
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