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Discussion: There's STATS and there are stats...

Posted Discussion
Jan. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's STATS and there are stats...
I played in an ASA national of couple of years ago
with Kelly's and the tournament kept all the stats
for the games and used them to make their judgements about
all world awards as THEY made all the choices.
I thought that was very meaningful and cool.

If stats for all the players were kept and recorded
than it would be easy to rate the players
not only to keep rampaging egos in check
but decide fairly without changing rules or equipment
Major plus, major or AAA teams/brackets more fairly and efficiently.

Hmmmmmm.
I played in a local tournament in South San Francisco a couple of years ago
and they kept and published the stats for all the players
week by week on line.
It was very telling and meaningful for many obvious and important reasons
to see one's performance and stat-us up in lights
for everyone/anyone to see.
I think this could and would go a long way
to help Senior softball organize, develop and operate itself
in a richer, more dynamic and satisfying way
going forward.

Hmmmmmmm.
Jan. 28, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
Joe, remember when SPA had the "impact player list"? They took the guys that made All Tournament at one tournament and put them on their list. This might have worked if they would have included more stats from more tournaments.
Remember, your idea would probably exclude a great defensive player, maybe even a pticher.
It is a good topic to toss around.
Jan. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bruce,
If I remember correctly
ASA in the tournament aforementioned
took defensive stats, too.
That would cover both sides of the ball.
Players could be rated 1, 2 or 3 for both offense AND defense.
Hmmmmmmm.
Jan. 28, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
With only 4 full time paid employees and one contract employee, I doubt the time would be given to one of them to afford\allow this, and a great idea which has been put fourth before...
We all know the "books" have to or are supposed to be kept for games incase of a protest or the like, but some time back someone made a comment they don't either keep these or do not get them fro other sources.

Would be nice to have efficient scorekeepers where this info could be used.
Another thing is, I doubt the info would get published for all to view, though nice, for some it could prove to be embarrassing for others very sweet.
Jan. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Scott,
It would certainly be an effective way to separate the men from the boys
without having to use a crowbar(SF joke).
Maybe teams could/would have the responsibility to enter their own stats
by the Tuesday after a tournament and it could be started that way
and improved upon down the road.
Mike Kelly used to publish the stats for his team's performances
or lack of same on his website for all to see.
I thought it would be a bit embarrassing but if you don't like the heat
stay out of the kitchen.
Jan. 28, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
ASA also makes errors sometimes. The difference between National All Tournament and posssibly MVP. Missed recording two more hits.
Jan. 28, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
Personally I like stats, the only caveat, depending on your spot in the batting order RBI's drop for spots 6 and below. Better stat On Base Percentage. Big banger or slap hitter, if you are on base you are helping your team. If you go OPB instead of batting avg, can't give credit for SACs.

I always like a quote I read concerning Steele's. We hit so many HRs that we measure ourselves by, "how many, OH MYS" we hit. That is when you hit it everybody looks at it and say Oh My.
Jan. 28, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Do you remember the mgr. that was referred to as the "colonel" most of the time (way back when)? If I remember correctly he used to do it. He had one strict set of team rules...I still have them.

As for errors, I doubt there has been a scorekeeper that hasn't made one, here or there.

I like to know my stats as well.
Jan. 28, 2009
santo
Men's 55
41 posts
Einstein, I agree with you. First, I think it should be up to the team to keep their own stats. I'm sure the tourney people don't have the time or $$ to pay someone to do it. On Base Percentage is probably a stronger stat because you really can't fudge the number. Batting average is tricky because an error could be a hit if you have a lenient score keeper and vice versa if every missed ball is an error. But something is better than nothing. I would rather play on a team that keeps stats because I can't lie to myself when I look at the report. If my onbase is over say 700, I think I had a pretty good tourney. If it's 250, I need to sit down and ask myself if maybe I should be a bowler...
Jan. 28, 2009
JamesLG
296 posts
Einstein:

I think this is a good idea but there are a lot of players who pad there stats when the money is not on the line. The guys who get the big hits tourney after tourney are at the top of the heap in my book. Our old coach was a tough scorekeeper. Sacs were scored an out and anybody who hit up the gut with a runner on first and less than two outs better hope the ball does not end up as a DP. You may be riding the pine the next game for this infraction of his rules.
Bashbro has all the Ruth stats on his fantastic web page.
Thanks:
James
Jan. 28, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
I like this idea;, however, let's look at its' feasibility from another perspective. Our team, Boaz 60s, has about 13 players usually in attendance. I manage the team and also play and also try to keep stats when I am not hitting or preparing to hit. We do not have a designated statistician like my good friends on the Old A's do. Having to make out line-ups, run out to the outfield and try to manage the game from out there PLUS try to keep good stats is not easy. AND, the other guys who try to keep the book when I'm not available do not have the same desire as I to keep a "good" book. When I try to reconstruct the games after we finish, I oftentimes have to use a "best-guess" for some ABs. I would not like to turn these stats in to TDs for classifying players. Also, I played ASA 35+ and 40+ Masters for several years back in the late-80s and early-90s where the tournament "staff" kept the books. I found they were invariably wrong and a few guys off my team did not make All American due to shoddy scorekeeping. It's hard to pay attention ALL the time when keeping score - I've done it for pay and I know I've messed up.
Jan. 28, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
Every senior team that I've played with used on base percentage. When I ran the Hitmen we never counted a sac as an on base and if you hit into a double play it counted two at bats!
As for the other years, some coaches allowed sacs, some only in game winning situations.
Jan. 28, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
Sac flies are actually OK in senior softball when you can only score a certain amount of runs in an inning. Why should a batter be penalized statistically when he knocks in the fifth run? Doesn't matter how you get it.
Jan. 28, 2009
amr-4-lc
38 posts
guys,

please correct me if i'm wrong on this. in replying to what santo said about it being hard to fudge OBP. take this scenario .... you come up 4 times during a game, each ab a runner is on 1st base, you ground into a force play each ab. according to OBP you're at .1000, because you're standing on 1st but according to ba you're at .000. over the years i've seen players not deserving of all tournament status receive this award because the coach was going by OBP. (especially when the coach offers his suggestions for all tournament team to the TD) on the other hand i've seen players have much better tournaments but not receive the same award they were more deserving of.

again, if i'm incorrect on this please let me know. but i don't think simply going by OBP is the best reflection of the quality of play a player may have had during that tournament.

one other thought: if you're going to award a player OBP for hitting into a force play or fielder's choice, you certainly cannot hold it against a player for hitting a sacrifice fly and bringing a run across, whether it's the 1st or 5th run of the inning.
Jan. 28, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
A fielders choice is just like getting on because of an error. It does not count towards OBA.

If you hit a sac fly to drive in the 1st run, you have given up an important out. I believe that most teams will count this as an out.
Jan. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The Old A's do the same thing.
FC are outs and SAC FLYs are outs, too.
I think OBP is the way to go.
I would not make SAC FLY''s outs
just like the one that gets recorded
when there's a guy on 3rd with less than 2 out
and the batting team is one run away from the limit,
as in the 5 run per inning limit.
Hitting a fly ball into the outfield ensures the last run will score
and should not be recorded as an out.
Jan. 28, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
Joe, I agree with you on not counting SFs as an out, relative to OBA, when the 5th run (or max run) gets driven in. Salio2k, I've kept score for many years and I know of no one who does not count a fielders choice against OBA. Also, I personally, do not reward a batter who gets on via error with what is in effect a "hit" by counting it as a "plus" toward OBA. It's 0 for 1 to me as is a fielders choice.
Jan. 29, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
Jawood, I agree with you on scoring a run with a sac in the games where you can score a maximum number of runs. Some may argue that you have a runner on second and third, 1 out , no runs scored that inning and the batter hits a sac. He should have been trying for a single. I'm sure you can add stipulations about this.
Obp shows errors as hits. If you hit the ball hard, good things happen. It also makes up for the times when you are robbed of a hit.
Jan. 29, 2009
cpope
Men's 60
160 posts
Hello Bruce, see you next month in AL.

Stats are Stats, since I need all the help I can get I like the OBP.
Which for me includes the walks. I know a few batters that will not take a walk because it don't help their BA. I know, but there are still a few players out there like that.
SAC's should be counted only in the "runs per inning rule"
The price we pay for tournaments, the TD should keep stats. TD kept stats should also aid in the All Tournament Teams to.
750 OBP and up should be a GOOD TOURNAMENT for most players, then ofcourse you have Fairchild, well lets say "If you are lucky enough to have Fairchild"
Kidding Bruce.
I run a local team 55 and up. I enjoy keeping the stats but when somebody else helps out it seems like you know who they like the most on the team, the E-4 was always "to hot to handle, so OBP is the best way to go.
Hope to see you guys more this year.

BTW, is a HR over the limit of HR an out still? :) It hurts to not give a 60 year old something for hitting the ball 300 feet. :) Especially when its me. :)
Jan. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Charles,
Good post.
Senior softball guys are so good and complain and get involved so little
in the management of things we can be taken for a ride
without too much difficulty by admins, TD's and their buddies.
Let's not forget who pays for membership in these associations
up to 50 bucks now
and who pays the fees that put on their tournaments.
Their tournaments?
No, our tournaments.

WE don't have to take anything we don't want to
and until or unless we let them know what we need, want and expect
they're free to do what they want and what is in THEIR best interest to do.
It's our right and obligation in a vigorous relationship
to both announce and stand up for our wants and needs.
We often have to demand respect, to get it.

No HR's as outs
and no balls that don't go when hit hard and square.
Jan. 29, 2009
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
Great post. NO HR's as outs, not at our age.
Palm Springs Senior Softball does the stats every week. Scorekeepers from both the A and B league turn the books in to agal who computs and posts usually by Teus after the weekend games. Not only are total stats there, but also where you are in relation to others on your same line. (we rate players lines 1-10 and draft teams to make them even)
Stats are always fun and we look forward to their posting.
http://ps-softball.tripod.com/astats0126.htm
Jan. 29, 2009
AlleninGa
Men's 60
113 posts
I hit a HR last year............I remember it well...........The Moon was "Blue" and "Hell had just frozen over"..........I sure am glad we hadn't reached our limit, that would have been a bummer :-)
Jan. 30, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
For all the players that dont believe in Sacs look back over the years and ask yourself how many times your team has lost a 1 run game or went to extra innings and lost but at some point during the early or late part someone could have hit a flyball and score a run but did not.I can think of quite a few.
Feb. 1, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
einstein, I will give credit when it is due. Great idea. Reminds me of how softball used to be, when all leagues and tourneys would provide scorekeepers and they did keep stats and the tourney directors were the ones who would pick all-tourney, MVP, etc.
Feb. 1, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
Hi Butch, It's surprising the times a hard hit ball off an infielders glove (remember Plano when I thought you broke my wrist) or even a Texas leager would suffice, just to get one run in. I still stay you need to do it with a hit, not with a sac.
Feb. 1, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Hey BruceinGa. hope all is well. You have a great point but I remember hiting hard shots for outs early in the game when a fly ball would have at least scored a run and we would have won. I guess I have the old baseball mentality score as many runs early in the game anyway you can and when it gets to the latter innings adjust to what you need by the score. Who are you playing with this year.Hope to see you and all is well.
Feb. 2, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
Butch, I've moved up to the 60's, playing with the Ga/Fl Merchants/Raptors.
I'm sure I'll see you this year, maybe at the Spring Nats.
Feb. 2, 2009
4Four4
Men's 60
82 posts
When determining a team's MVP, stats are a significant part of the criteria, but not always the most important decision driver. When a team plays together for an entire season(s), often an individual performance of leadership, un-selfishness, or some other spiritually relevant reason should allow the team to choose it's MVP - not a tournament director. (You have to be on the inside to know who.)
DH#4
The Tub
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