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Discussion: The Stoneman

Posted Discussion
Feb. 18, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
The Stoneman
> TODAYS BALL WERE MADE FOR 1996 ALUMIN' BATS. GUYS, THESE
> R THE FACTS. MAY NOT LIKE THEM. IT'S OK TO SEND AROUND.
>
> A.) BATS: Bat Companies are making huge profits today.
> 1.) Many of today’s Composite Bats are being Rolled or
> Shaved.
> 2.) Bat company’s, will not do anything to stop Roll’
> or Shaving.
> 3.) Bat manufactory’s have includes into the cost of a
> New Bat, the
> Cost for the 2nd bat, which is the Warranty Bat.
> 4.) Bats that have been Altered, relieve the Bat
> company’s from any
> Liabilities. (Law Suites.)
> 5.) The number of return bats is about 1 in 20. (This is a
> hard estimate.)
> 6.) Because Bats are being altered, the Bat Manufactories
> profit is SKY
> HIGH. (Few players are will’ to turn in an Altered
> Bat.)
> 7.) The senior & other Softball Organizations have
> & will never FORCE the
> Bat companies, into design’ Bats that cannot be
> altered. (PROFIT)
> 8.) The Bat manufactories already have stated that they,
> the bat
> companies, will not try to stop Bat tamper’.
> (PROFIT)
> 9.) A chip has already been Designed & Tested that
> could be used to test
> any Bat, right at the fields. This would stop 90% of
> all Illegal Bats 10.) Cost of this chip would be $2.00. Cost
> of the “GUN”/ devise to
> Test a Bat at the fields, is only about $300. This
> would also include
> the Program. NOTE: MOST SS-USA EVENTS- already have
> Laptop on site.
> 11.) SS-USA- does not perform any Search or Test’ of any
> kind at the
> Softball Fields. 3.4(6) Bat Inspection ….. This
> also, includes
> Instruct’ UMPS, in what one should be look’ for
> or how to Test a
> Bats Balanc’ Point.
> 12.) The parties that did design this CHIP, has & is
> still well’ to give
> the Patent rights to all Bat Companies.
> 13.) During the 2002-2004 era, many Bats were banned; at
> ASA’s, request,
> ASA’s Bat Test’ Labs did help out the Bat
> Companies. NYS Test’ Lab
> told the Bat company’s what could be done so as to
> get their bats to
> pass. Then ASA banned those Bats.
>
> ASA Bat test’ is mostly done at Washington State Univ,
> were that lab has a “cannon” that can “fire”
> Softballs at 110 MPH toward Softball Bats.
> 14.) Miken Sports made Worth Composite Bats design. Will
> K2, which owns
> Miken / Rawlings / Worth, explain why there are so
> many Miken or
> Worth style Bats? ASA Bats & 1.20 Bats; with eight
> different weights.
> Then there is the manufactur’ of Fast Pitch &
> Baseball Bats.
> Miken bats are made in the US. Miken Technology is used in
> the manufactur’ of Worth Bats. Worth Bats are made in
> China.
> 15.) Today’s Balls break Composite Bats quicker. More Bat
> sales. (PROFIT)
>
> Just remember, in our earlier years, the only Bat weights
> were 36 or 38 oz. The 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, & 29 oz Bats,
> have increased the Batted Ball Speed (BBS), by 8%. Back in
> the old days, there were only two Bat weights & not
> eight. Only 1 style.
>
> The above & the fact that 40 & 44 cor Balls, travel
> thru the infield 3.57 MPH faster. So, that is an 11 plus
> increase in BBS. FACT: The game has changed do to R &
> D. Sorry, but this “problem”, did not exist back in 1960
> thru 1996.
>
> When will seniors or the Major Softball gods, crack down on
> Illegal Bats? Why in this modern age, has nothing been done
> to stop this problem? (MONEY) Two Bats compared to Eight
> Bats. Players buy ASA & U-trip Bats. Only real
> different? (Graphics; Stiff or Flex Handles; a slightly
> differ mold.
>
> B.) BALLS: The balls are why we have 2 styles of Bats. (ASA
> & USSSA Bats.)
> > 1.) A safe ball can be made. This ball can also,
> perform well.
> > 2.) In 1986 or so, the Surlyn Ball was used. This
> Ball had a 53 cor &
> > the Comp was in the area of 300. A “Mold
> Injected Process” made
> > Surlyn Balls. This is why Surlyn Balls had a
> “ton of bounce.”
> > 3.) Fact- in the mornings Softball travel much
> better, than in the
> > heat of the day. Softballs also,travel much
> better once the Sun
> > has set.
> > 4.) Do to the New Testing at present, a Ball with a
> cor higher than 51,
> > is the Safest Ball that can be made at present.
> As long as the comp
> > is under 300 / 400, the SEVERITY INDEX (S.I.),
> will be under 1200.
> > If, the S.I. is around or over 1200, massive
> damage & death can
> > occur.
> > 5.) At present a 51.4 cor ball with a 281 comp, S.I.
> is 433. Back in
> 1986 or so, the Hot Dots, were 53 cor 300 comp
> Surlyn Balls.
> > The Bats of that era were 36-38 oz Aluminum
> Bats.
> > 6.) Also, tested was a 49 cor ball with a 272 comp,
> it’s S.I. is 769.
> > 7.) ANACONDA SPORTS (A.S.) has the contract to make
> Softballs for SS-
> > USA. Last Aug, SS-SSA gave their ordered to
> Anaconda, which order
> 80,000 doz. That’s 960,000 Softball. Each
> Softball is hand
> stitched. One person can only stitch 72 balls per
> day. (For one
> > person to stitch 960,000 balls, it would take
> that person 37.6
> > years.)
> > 8.) Until 2003-2004, SS-USA did not have any
> “real” contract to supply
> > Tournament Balls. The local Area T.D.’s
> furnished balls that were
> > to be used.
> > 9.) Fact- for SS-USA, to change to another ball,
> SS-USA, would have to
> > Break or change SS-USA’s present contract to
> A.S. It would then
> > take Anaconda Sports, 4 to 6 months to fabricate
> all 960,000
> > Softballs.
> > 10.) Fact- heat does affect Softballs. Always has
> & will always be so.
> > Get over it. BALLS with a COR over 51 are less
> effected by the
> HEAT.
> > 11.) More testing on Balls are still go’ on today.
> The final answer has
> > not been derived as of yet. It appears that a
> Softball with a cor
> > of at least 51 should be used. If, anyone still
> has any of the old
> > 1986 Surlyn Balls, please try hit’ those old
> Balls with today’s
> > Composite Bats.
> > 12.) Is the present day Bat & Ball combination
> good for the game? Like
> > it or not, the ruling Softball Organizations
> & SGMA, are pushing
> > for the change. Finally, ASA, NSA, USSSA, &
> others are starting to
> > listen to NOCSAE.
> >
> Because of the Ball & Bat combinations / Law Suites due
> to Injuries, ASA is finally rethink’ ASA’s stand on
> balls. Data proves that the lower cor balls S.I. are well
> over 1200. If, 1200 will kill a player, does it matter if a
> Balls S.I. is over 1900? That’s like be’ shot with a 38
> or a 44 Mag. You are still dead. (Kevin’s Yogism)
> >
> Here is a simple explanation.(YogiKev)
> Right now on impact the bat is doing about 80% of the
> flexing, and the ball about 20%. By reversing this, ball 80%
> and bat 20% you can get the same type of performance with a
> much safer ball. No ball is going to 100% safe at the speeds
> they are travel’, but the impact force of the ball on body
> parts can be reduced by at least 60% or more.
> >
> Again if the ball has a higher cor it will try to rebound
> away on impact of a bone structure instead of trying to
> drive through it. If it has a lower compression the impact
> is reduced because it is softer. A Ball with a 525 comp,
> will take 525 lbs of Force to compress a Ball ¼”. A Ball
> with a 375 comp, will take 375 lbs, less force to compress a
> Ball ¼ of an inch.
> >
> It is very important to understand this fact. In our youth,
> the Ball did 80% of the work & not the Bat.
> > 13.) ASA, is start’ new test’ with Bats &
> Balls. ASA, has known that
> their ASTM 2219, was greatly flawed. This is why,
> ASA asked
> > someone to come up with a solution to ASA’s
> problem. Remember,
> told their Bat Test’Lab to help out the Bat
> Company’s when one of
> their Bats failed. ASA gets $1.50 form the Bat
> Company’s for every
> Bat that has an ASA sticker.
> > 14.) Today’s 40 & 44 cor Balls were designed to
> be used in combination
> with the (1996 to 2002) Aluminum Bats. It took ASA
> & other a year
> or less to notice that R & D, had throw the
> Softball Game upside
> down.
> > 15.) Because of the New Test; Players Complaints;
> NOCSAE; ASA will go
> back to a revised 1.20 BPF. This will save Softball
> Players MONEY.
> Players will not need to buy an ASA & then a
> ISA, NSA, & USSSA
> Bat(s). 1 Bat.
> >
> Seniors do not require a Special Softball for Mid day play.
> I do not remember in my youth, time was called & a hot
> weather Ball was put into the game, after 11 AM.
> >
> Why is ASA, seven years later, finally listen’ to NOCSAE.
> Info on Bats & Balls. Follow the MONEY. ASA does not
> want to get sued. PERIOD. Over the last couple of years,
> there has been six Law Suites (min), which went for over $1
> MILLION.
>
> ASA is request’ a change in their ball. Chang’ the ball
> will then allow ASA to go back to the use of 1.20 BPF Bats.
Feb. 18, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts

> >Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 11:01 AM
> >When will seniors face the facts & stop their
> WHIN’?
> > > >
> A.) BATS: Bat Companies are making huge profits today.
> > >1.) Many of today’s Composite Bats are being
> Rolled or Shaved.
> > >2.) Bat company’s, will not do anything to stop
> Roll’ or Shaving.
> > >3.) Bat manufactory’s have includes into the
> cost of a New Bat, the
> > > > Cost for the 2nd bat, which is the
> Warranty Bat.
> > >4.) Bats that have been Altered, relieve the Bat
> company’s from any
> > > > Liabilities. (Law Suites.)
> > >5.) The number of return bats is about 1 in
> 20.(This is a hard
> estimate.)
> > >6.) Because Bats are being altered, the Bat
> Manufactures profit is
> > > > SKY HIGH. (Few players are will’ to turn
> in an Altered Bat.)
> > 7.) The senior & other Softball Organization
> shave & will never FORCE
> > > > the Bat companies, into design’ Bats
> that cannot be altered.(PROFIT)
> > >8.) The Bat manufactures already have stated that
> they, the bat
> > > > companies, will not try to stop Bat
> tamper'.(PROFIT)
> > >9.) A chip has already been Designed & Tested
> that could be used to
> > > > test any Bat, right at the fields. This
> would stop 90% of all
> > > > Illegal Bats.
> > 10.) Cost of this chip would be $2.00. Cost of the
> “GUN”/ devise to
> > > > Test a Bat at the fields, is only about
> $300. Thiswould also
> > > > include the Program. NOTE: MOST SS-USA
> EVENTS-already have Laptop
> > > > on site.
> > 11.) SS-USA- does not perform any Search or Test’ of
> any kind at the
> > > > Softball Fields. 3.4(6) Bat
> Inspection….. This also, includes
> > > > Instruct’ UMPS, in what one should be
> look’ for or how to Test a
> > > > Bats Balanc’ Point.
> > 12.) The parties that did design this CHIP, has &
> is still well’ to
> > > > give the Patent rights to all Bat
> Companies.
> > 13.) During the 2002-2004 era, many Bats were banned;
> at ASA’s, request,
> ASA’s Bat Test’ Labs did help out the Bat
> Companies. NYS Test’ Lab
> told the Bat company’s what could be done so as
> to get their bats
> to pass. Then ASA banned those Bats.
> ASA Bat test’ is mostly done at Washington State Univ,
> were that lab has a “cannon” that can “fire”
> Softballs at 110 MPH toward Softball Bats.
> > 14.) Miken Sports made Worth Composite Bats design.
> Will K2, which owns
> > > > Miken / Rawlings / Worth, explain why
> there are so many Miken or
> > > > Worth style Bats? ASA Bats & 1.20
> Bats; with eight different
> weights. Then there is the manufactur’ of Fast
> Pitch &Baseball
> Bats. Miken bats are made in the US. Miken
> Technology is used in
> > > > the manufactur’ of Worth Bats. Worth
> Bats are made in China.
> > 15.) Today’s Balls break Composite Bats quicker.
> More Bat sales.(PROFIT)
> > > >
> Just remember, in our earlier years, the only Bat weights
> were 36 or 38 oz. The 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, & 29 oz Bats,
> have increased the Batted Ball Speed (BBS), by 8%. Back in
> the old days, there were only two Bat weights
> & not eight. Only 1 style. (ASA, USSSA, Stiff or Flex
> handles)
> > > >
> The above & the fact that 40 & 44 cor Balls, travel
> thru the infield 3.57 MPH faster. So, that is an 11 plus
> increase in BBS. FACT: The game has changed do to Reach
> & Develpoment. Sorry, but this “problem”, did not
> exist
> back in 1960 thru 1996.
> > > >
> When will seniors or the Major Softball gods,crack down on
> Illegal Bats? Why in this modern age, has nothing been done
> to stop this problem? (MONEY) Two Bats compared to Eight
> Bats. Players buy ASA & U-trip Bats. Only real
> different? (Graphics; Stiff or Flex Handles; a slightly
> differ mold.)
> > > >
> WHAT DO U THINK/ POST or NOT. BUY U CAN!



Feb. 18, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
B.) BALLS: The balls are why we have 2 styles of Bats. (ASA & USSSA Bats.)
1.) A safe ball can be made. This ball can also, perform well.
2.) In 1986 or so, the Surlyn Ball was used. This Ball had a 53 cor &
the Comp was in the area of 300. A “Mold Injected Process” made
Surlyn Balls. This is why Surlyn Balls had a “ton of bounce.”
3.) Fact- in the mornings Softball travel much better, than in the
heat of the day. Softballs also,travel much better once the Sun
has set.
4.) Do to the New Testing at present, a Ball with a cor higher than 51,
is the Safest Ball that can be made at present. As long as the comp
is under 300 / 400, the SEVERITY INDEX (S.I.), will be under 1200.
If, the S.I. is around or over 1200, massive damage & death can
occur.
5.) At present a 51.4 cor ball with a 281 comp, S.I. is 433.
Back in 1986 or so, the Hot Dots, were 53 cor 300 comp Surlyn
Balls.
The Bats of that era were 36-38 oz Aluminum Bats.
6.) Also, tested was a 49 cor ball with a 272 comp, it’s S.I. is 769.
7.) ANACONDA SPORTS (A.S.) has the contract to make Softballs for SS-
USA. Last Aug, SS-SSA, ordered 80,000 doz Softball from Anaconda.
That’s 960,000 Softball. Each Softball is hand stitched. One
person can only stitch 72 balls per day. (For one person to stitch
960,000 balls, it would take that person 37.6 years.)
8.) Until 2003-2004, SS-USA did not have any “real” contract to supply
Tournament Balls. The local Area T.D.’s furnished balls that were
to be used.
9.) Fact- for SS-USA, to change to another ball, SS-USA, would have to
Break or change SS-USA’s present contract to A.S. It would then
take Anaconda Sports, 4 to 6 months to fabricate all 960,000
Softballs.
10.) Fact- heat does affect Softballs. Always has & will always be so.
Get over it. BALLS with a COR over 51 are less effected by the HEAT.
11.) More testing on Balls are still go’ on today. The final answer has
not been derived as of yet. It appears that a Softball with a cor
of at least 51 should be used. If, anyone still has any of the old
1986 Surlyn Balls, please try hit’ those old Balls with today’s
Composite Bats.
12.) Is the present day Bat & Ball combination good for the game? Like
it or not, the ruling Softball Organizations & SGMA, are pushing
for the change. Finally, ASA, NSA, USSSA, & others are starting to
listen to NOCSAE.

Because of the Ball & Bat combinations / Law Suites due to Injuries, ASA is finally rethink’ ASA’s stand on balls. Data proves that the lower cor balls S.I. are well over 1200. If, 1200 will kill a player, does it matter if a Balls S.I. is over 1900? That’s like be’ shot with a 38 or a 44 Mag. You are still dead. (Kevin’s Yogism)

Here is a simple explanation.(YogKev)
Right now on impact the bat is doing about 80% of the flexing, and the ball about 20%. By reversing this, ball 80% and bat 20% you can get the same type of performance with a much safer ball. No ball is going to 100% safe at the speeds they are travel’, but the impact force of the ball on body parts can be reduced by at least 60% or more.

Again if the ball has a higher cor it will try to rebound away on impact of a bone structure instead of trying to drive through it. If it has a lower compression the impact is reduced because it is softer. A Ball with a 525 comp, will take 525 lbs of
Force to compress a Ball ¼”. A Ball with a 375 comp, will take 375 lbs, less force to compress a Ball ¼ of an inch.

It is very important to understand this fact. In our youth, the Ball did 80% of the work & not the Bat.
13.) ASA, is start’ new test’ with Bats & Balls. ASA, has known that their
ASTM 2219, was greatly flawed. This is why, ASA asked someone to come up with a solution to ASA’s problem. Remember, ASA told their Bat Test’Lab to help out the Bat Company’s when one of their Bats failed. ASA gets $1.50 form the Bat Company’s for every Bat that has an ASA sticker.
14.) Today’s 40 & 44 cor Balls were designed to be used in combination with the (1996 to 2002) Aluminum Bats. It took ASA & other a year or less to notice that R & D, had throw the Softball Game upside down.
15.) Because of the New Test; Players Complaints; NOCSAE; ASA will go back
to a revised 1.20 BPF. This will save Softball Players MONEY. Players will not need to buy an ASA & then a ISA, NSA, & USSSA Bat(s). 1 Bat.

Seniors do not require a Special Softball for Mid day play. I do not remember in my youth, time was called & a hot weather Ball was put into the game, after 11 AM.

Why is ASA, seven years later, finally listen’ to NOCSAE. Info on Bats & Balls. Follow the MONEY. ASA does not want to get sued. PERIOD.
Over the last couple of years, there has been six Law Suites (min), which went for over $1 MILLION.






Feb. 19, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
834 posts
Sounds like I need to break out my old 1996 Powerflite weapons! I've got the blue and the white Joe Albert (JA7) models to try out with these balls.
Feb. 19, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
we need cliff notes please.what i did see in here was that in the early days u couldn't buy lighter bats,well ray that is false,as i did back in the 70's buy 28 oz and lighter bats.i have always used the lightest bat i could find.i did try some heavy bats for a bit when someone told me they would be better for me,but that lasted maybe a yr and then went back to my lite bats.
Feb. 19, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Mad Dog I can not verify every comment in these post to be fact. I am simply sharing some information that was e-mailed to me that I thought to be interesting reading for softball players in general.I hope you were able to get some positive feedback from these post as well.Thanks for your comments.

Ray
Feb. 19, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Ray,
How you makin' it through the winter?
The Stoneman loves the game
and goes the extra mile to do his research.
He believes the ball is the key
and it must be a good one he says
a little less bouncy than the best of today
but not a dog or a pillow that no one
can hit well.
When's the first tournament for Reedus and you guys?
Do you look for USSSA tournaments to play
in order to utilize Reedus' monster U-trip skills?


Feb. 19, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Hey Einstein,The weather is forgettable.Just wanted to pass that info. along to others from the Stoneman it looked pretty well thought out to me.Our first tourney is in Michigan in May.(Qualifier)If I had your e-mail I could send you a copy.Mine is in the M.B. archives if you want it.We are looking to play USSSA Worlds in N. Bradford Conn. in August.Will be making two or three west coast trips.Have a Great Day.

Ray
Feb. 19, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
Thanks Ray
and tell Reedus I said hi.
Hope to see him at the Black World this year.

Feb. 19, 2009
hitt2
354 posts
Stone man
Thanks for the info.
Funny thing last Thursday I performed a test of my own. Using my old Howard bat, a Louisville single wall and triple wall, a Worth Asylum and my combat gear and Miken maniac (Freak. I used Trump, Dudley and Lexum yellow balls and a variety of old white NSA and ASA balls. The compression varied on the balls.
First let me say that some of the balls jumped so hard of the bat that if used today the injury toll would be thru the roof. Thank –you ball R&D.
All of the balls uses jumped off the composite bats. I could also feel the ball drive into the bat versus trampoline. However the balls with a lower compression also seem to do alright. The red and Blue dots cracked and broke the asylum, but hit well with the Howard 32oz. They jumped of the maniac.
When using the single wall aluminum bats I notice that with my swing the ball jumped of the bat but distance was inconsistent. Still hitting hard line drives off the fence and a couple over. . The multi wall bats increased the distance, with more consistent long balls.
I guess I’m not wrapped up in this bat ball combo like many are. I just hit the ball as hard as I can.
If it goes out ok.
If it hits the fence ok.
f it travels well through the infield with pace ok.
Put a ball out there that stays solid the entire game.
Bottom line I just show up to play and play hard.
Hitt2
Feb. 20, 2009
18mike
Men's 55
23 posts
I have read all posts and now have one of those headaches you get when you eat ice cream too fast.
Keep the bats and the balls the same, don't make Homeruns outs(to protect the pitchers)and let's have some fun.
Senior Softball is a vibrant and fun game. When it ceases to become that,we will see the decline that is evident with the younger players.
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