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Discussion: DBO/PPR rule - still protecting nobody

Posted Discussion
Feb. 23, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
260 posts
DBO/PPR rule - still protecting nobody
After playing this weekend in Phoenix against an assortment of very good 50/55/60 Major and Major plus teams, I remain convinced that the DBO/Pitcher Protection rule is still worthless, distracting, and protective of nobody. The rule should actually be called the HPR - hitter punishment rule. No matter how the rule is written it is open to varying interpretation by umpires that can only create controversy. The umps in Phoenix were first rate and did their best, but nobody was safer as the result. Since that's the case, let's abandon the rule. If it protects nobody, and adds nothing to the game, why does it exist?

Once again, I observed the only two things that actually protect a pitcher, protective equipment like the leg guards worn by the GSF pitcher, and pitcher's skill. Who really believes the pitchers are protected by calling the batter out? That is after the fact and punitive, not protective. 99.9 % of the time middle shots are not intended to injure the pitcher, they are just the product of hitters hitting the ball where it is pitched. Should we outlaw, short, flat, outside pitches? Of course not!
Keep this simple game simple, and only add things that actually improve the game and do what they are purported to do.
IMHO
Don Newhard
Manager - OLR Nighthawks 55 Major
Feb. 24, 2009
WOW
197 posts
Great post. My guess is most everyone will agree with you.
Feb. 24, 2009
Joncon
285 posts
Our pitcher got hit in the foot.

Blue first said "The ball wasng going fast enough", then changed to "I didn't see it hit him".

I applaud those in charge for taking a step toward pitcher protection but they simply didn't think the rule all the way thru.

My parameters would be a vertical plane in front of the pitcher, centered on the rubber, 3" wide and a foot taller than the pitcher. Any ball hit there and not fielded would be an out.

Mandatory protective gear?
Feb. 24, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
This weekend in Anaheim, there was no dead ball out. The middle was live and I saw some great defensive plays resulting in double plays. The rule is BAD. It creates a false sense of security for the pitcher and rightly or wrongly, they let their guard down. It does not protect anyone and creates more of an opportunity for injury and is not a friend to the umpires. Just another point for a potential issue.
Feb. 24, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Joncon... totally unnecessary to take away part of the field... it is unfair for the defensive player as well as the offensive player... just use a safer ball!
Feb. 24, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DBO through the middle is something
that guys who really don't play or get our game
might think is a good idea.
It just won't work and will not deter big hitters
from attacking the middle.
Which means that going to HR's as outs
will increase the danger to pitchers
and should be rescinded back
to last years SSUSA standard
with HRs as singles/walks.
Feb. 24, 2009
DCPete
232 posts
Just a question: how come no one was trying to make these changes when we were still using Hi-COR/Hi- Comp balls?
Feb. 24, 2009
Joncon
285 posts
A safer ball would help.

Maybe change the ball for certain divisions....those who want a safer ball.

All I know is that if you are GOING to make a rule, it has to be clear. It can't be "whatever the ump thinks"
Feb. 24, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
260 posts
Joncon - great point. Any rule implemented should be clear, effective, and able to be applied with relative objectivity. In just six games in Phoenix we got multiple versions of "what the ump thinks" that did nothing to protect the pitchers. It is apparent that is not how TH and the brass in Sacramento view rule changes. Here is an excerpt from Terry H.'s post of 2/10 about the new rules.

1. Are they providing equal competition? WHAT DOES EQUAL COMPETITION HAVE TO DO WITH A RULE PURPORTED TO PROTECT PITCHERS.
2. Do teams like the rules AFTER having played a season with them? WE DON'T LIKE THE RULE NOW, IT PROTECTS NOBODY. PLAYERS TEND TO LIKE RULES THAT ACTUALLY IMPROVE THE GAME, NOT COMPLICATE IT FOR NO BENEFIT.
3. What suggestions do teams have to improve the rules? GET RID OF IT NOW, WE DON'T NEED A YEAR TO FIGURE OUT THAT IT IS INEFFECTIVE, DOESN'T COME CLOSE TO THE STATED INTENT, AND WILL ONLY CREATE ISSUES IN GAMES WITH UMPS TRYING TO INTERPRET A BAD RULE.

TH UNFORTUNATELY GOES ON TO SAY: "We feel strongly that we need to see the rules in play for a season to determine whether or not they are working as hoped. Any changes to the new rules will be made at the SSUSA Annual Convention in December 2009."

COME ON TERRY, YOU'VE MADE PLENTY OF MID-SEASON REVERSALS. THIS IS ONE RULE THAT NEEDS TO BE DROPPED IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE IT IS TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE NOW!

My kids accuse me of being a broken record, so I apologize for repeating this. Equipment, skill and reflexes are the only thing that protect pitchers. Instead of shoving a ridiculous rule down our throats for a year, how about promoting the use of protective gear. MLB now requires base coaches to wear batting helmets because a 1B coach got killed by a line drive at least 90 feet from home plate. How silly would it be to rule that the batter that struck that ball be out???
I've said it before, let each pitcher decide what armor they need to protect themselves, and leave the game alone.
Still just MHO:
Don Newhard
Feb. 25, 2009
Senior Moments
Men's 60
57 posts
The DBO in no way protects balls from being hit up the middle. A common sense deterent from hitting up the middle is to put another fielder in the middle.

Why don't all divisions use the 11th man in the middle that has to play defense within a 10-ft. "box" area of second base. If out of the "box", a ball is called on the batter.

The extra man, "Not a Rover", does two things: (1) It allows another player to play; (2) It offers some deterent from hitting up the middle. There is no "magic" fixall.

If the "boxman" does not play in a postion to protect the middle, then it is the defenseive team's fault, not the offense.

Shelby Simmons
Senior Moments Softball
Feb. 25, 2009
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
Tate22 Amen, SSUSA man up and realize this is a screw up and get rid of the rule. Pitchers have the right and ability to gear up. I hope they all will. 99.9% of the middle hitters aren't going to hit at the pitcher, hell he has a glove on and he knows how to use it. My 2 cents worth. Lazer Out
Feb. 25, 2009
RochBob
53 posts
We have a Rec league and have not implimented the pitcher rule because of all the controversy.
We umpire our own games . Good Luck getting somebody to call the rule and interpet the call.
I can imagine the calls being made in tournaments.
There are rules that have been on the books for ever, that never get called right.
Feb. 25, 2009
WOW
197 posts
Whats wrong with using a screen. At least for the older guys.
Feb. 25, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
WOW... you can't be serious!...This is supposed to be softball, not pinball.
Feb. 25, 2009
WOW
197 posts
How old are you and how much ball do you play? I speak from experience, [13 yrs. Senior Softball].
I played approx. 300 games last yr, some without and some with a screen. Using the screen has saved many a pitcher.
I'm not saying the younger guys [50 to 55], should use it. I see no reason NOT to use it from 60 and up. Ask the guys that pitch. It really is not a "badge of courage" thing to say you've been hit and have broken an arm or leg etc.
Feb. 25, 2009
havinfun
1 posts
WOW....(only 10 yrs Senior Softball) Most of it pitching, now at Major level. I HATE DBO and I HATE the idea of a screen.
Feb. 25, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
260 posts
WOW - I appreciate all of your comments. I'm not ready to advocate a screen on the field. I'm convinced that a pitcher can be adequately protected from serious injury with some combination of leg guards, helmet/mask and possibly a chest protector. The equipment is readily available, lightweight as well as strong. Mobility isn't impacted very much. It works for baseball catchers who arguably need equal or greater mobility than softball pitchers. The best part is the equipment is legal and we don't have to screw with the game to achieve real pitcher protection.

Don Newhard
Feb. 25, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
300 games last year for WOW? That in itself is impressive!
Feb. 25, 2009
WOW
197 posts
Jawood
OK I exagerated a bit. IT was only 249 last yr. I feel very fortunate to be healthy and live in California where we play all yr.
Feb. 25, 2009
4x4
Men's 65
592 posts
Hmmm - let's see....

We've been taught since young to snap the wrists, meet the ball at the plate as our hips and shoulders are squaring the ball. When this is done we have our timing down to hit the ball correctly.

The power alleys are left center to right center in EVERY major league ball park because that is where the ball goes when everything is done correctly.

NOW - we are told to forget decades of timing, training, practice and hit AWAY from the perfect swing? To alter what we have learned?

What's wrong with this picture?

It's imbecilic.
Feb. 25, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
WOW..I agree on the screen...for 80's.
Feb. 25, 2009
three for five
Men's 60
6 posts
If a batsman hits the pitcher, I think the pitcher should be able to hit the batter with a bat where and as hard as a batter hit the pitcher with the ball. :)
Feb. 26, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
WOW... I'm 61 and have been playing organized ball since I was 6... do I pass your test?
Feb. 26, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
WOW... if you pitch and you can't handle the middle, try another position.

three for five ... see WOW.
Feb. 26, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
three for five: I thought I have heard it all on this message board,( hope you were only joking) but you take the cake ! What are you going to want next....the deer hunting the hunter or the fish catching the fisherman ? If you are a pitcher, there is a GOOD CHANCE you may get hit with the ball, it is and always will be a part of the game.
Feb. 26, 2009
Robo2
220 posts
My position of this and other topics such as HR rule is to leve the game alone. this is tournament ball and we have separate divisions the will allow for equality of playing field. Don't chagne the game to something that limits our capabilities. I pitch sometimes and sometimes I wear chin guards; I hit an occassional HR and I don't want to feel bad that I used up a HR with nobody on base and hurting my team. At our ages, this should be a feel good activity and we should celebrate every opportunity. We are in fact freaks of nature to compete like we do.
Feb. 26, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
robo2, well said and good luck in 2009.Go to seniors and home runs on this message board and look at Gary33's post.It says it all!!!
Feb. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Of course the deer should hunt the hunter, and with the same equipment the chicken crap hunter uses.
Feb. 26, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Dirty, why did I know you would have stupid to say !
Feb. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Have something against a fair fight?

This way when the hunter mounts the head and hangs it on the wall at least he will know he really accomplished something to earn his "trophy".
Feb. 26, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
The "rule" is akin to: a police officer being shot and then putting on his vest.
What good is it, it's after the fact or the damage was done.


I wonder if the deer was only 50 feet away.
Feb. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
So by the "logic" of some the entire court system, jails, prisons, etc. are all pointless because none of it occurs until after the crime has been committed.

For the record I think the rule is extremely stupid, but so is the "logic" being used by some.
Feb. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
taits, only if he was dumb/lazy enough not to backpeddle. :)
Feb. 26, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Lazer Larry has got it right. At the 50+ worlds in Phoenix back in October I accidently hit a pitcher from Northwest Legends right in the mouth--it actually deflected off his glove right to his mouth. I was a dead ball out but more importantly at the time other than receiving a dozen stitches thank God he was OK. The intent of the rule being discussed is to persuade hitters from hitting the middle. It did nothing to protect that pitcher from being hit. A rule to truly protect the pitcher would be putting a screen in front of him--thus that pitcher from NW Legends would have been protected.
I agree with Lazer Larry when he says pitchers should use their gloves, back up and have the option to wear protective gear. Hitting the middle has always been part of the game and should always be. I still play utrip with the young fellas and every year I see more and more pitchers wearing face shields & chin guards--and these are young guys who more than likely have quicker reactions then the senior softball pitchers. Just my $0.02 worth.
Feb. 26, 2009
hitt2
354 posts
Tait
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend this past weekend. Prayers go out to his family and friends.
Hitt2.
Feb. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stick,
Separate issues are sticking out from this
behemoth of controversy and need
to be separated and dealt with as such.

Protecting the pitcher is important
and can/should be done in any number of ways
having nothing to do with changing the ball.

Guys like to hit a good ball hard and far as they can
and this is fundamental to their enjoyment.

TD's want games not to run over-time
so tournaments can be stacked and run
efficiently i.e. more teams more money.

No magic ball theory is going to convince us
any more that the new ball is the answer,
an everything-in-one application
that will solve all our problems and increase
participation and joy.

Make the pitcher box bigger and
increase the arc limits
and all by itself pitchers will be
fundamentally more safe.

Leave the bat/ball combo good
because this will keep guys having fun
and wanting to invest in their sport.

Raise fees to buy more balls
and limit runs per inning,
equalize home run rule
with HR's as singles
1-1 count,
and games will run on time.
Mercy rule effortlessly helps tnmts stay on time
to compensate for some games that run over.

There's a zealous few that seem dedicated
to changing our game in one swift motion
without evidential support or with the support
of the majority of players.

These should be challenged,
queried, and slowed down
lest we all wind up, somewhere else.

Don, you're quite right.
SS-USA has made a HUGE mistake
with the DBO rules, both the PPR
and HRs as outs for both safety
and fundamental enjoyment
and needs to be big enough,
show us they care enough
and have the character
to change back to last years standards
until something we all can support
comes along.

Get involved and stay involved
with what's going on where we're headed.
Way to go, everyone.
Well, almost everyone.



Feb. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I have to amend what I said above.
It's conceivable to me that a ball could be made
that's both lively enough and safer
that could help solve a couple of our issues.
The 52x275 ball is not that ball but maybe one of
it's descendents might be.
Feb. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"There's a zealous few that seem dedicated
to changing our game in one swift motion
without evidential support or with the support
of the majority of players."

"Make the pitcher box bigger and
increase the arc limits". Isn't this also "changing the game"?
Feb. 26, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Dirty, FAIR FIGHT,That's right down my alley !Ohio or Texas? A lot of people on this message board would pay to see that !
Feb. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Are you that big of a redneck?
Feb. 26, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Dirty, YEP !!!
Feb. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Thanks, I was just wondering. :)
Feb. 26, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Dirty, wonder no more !END
Feb. 26, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Bigger pitcher's box
Higher arc
Pitcher Protection Rule
Dead Ball Outs
Screens
Home-runs as outs
Safety equipment

Why consider all these changes to the game when making ONE change (the ball) will fix the problem without fundamentally changing the game?

Not that many years ago we had no safety issues, yet we still played ball and we still had fun. What has changed? We know what has changed, yet some of us have difficulty fully acknowledging the change, and others are going to desperately hang on to what they have now. Understandable. There aren't many of us who want to sacrifice what R&D is allowing us to do. But R&D is not why we play. We play because of the game. That is why, for me, less is more. The less we change the fundamentals of the game, the more enjoyable the game is to play.
Feb. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Boy, Bob
I sure wish you worked for me.
You're on a mission about the new ball
and I think "the right" new ball
will solve some problems for us
but not many others we're dealing with today.
That 275x52 ball won't do it
and I'm not sure you would want yourself
whoever you in fact are
associated with the failure that will be recorded
if/when it's introduced to the senior game.
That's probably a good reason to keep
your identity from us though.
Feb. 26, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Ball less Bob, where are you ?Have you made up your mind about S.A. for sure?
Feb. 26, 2009
three for five
Men's 60
6 posts
"If a batsman hits the pitcher, I think the pitcher should be able to hit the batter with a bat where and as hard as a batter hit the pitcher with the ball. :)

Sorry guys - didn't mean to cause anyone to have the vapors over my suggestion...
The ":)" symbol means I was joking...
Feb. 26, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
260 posts
#19 - Great point about less being more. The first six items on your list require changed rules, don't protect anyone and aren't needed. The last one, safety equipment is already legal and available. The game is not changed as a result of it's use. There have always been risks associated with this sport, they are more magnified the older we get. We can have safety through protective equipment AND leave the game alone. HOPEFULLY, TH IS PAYING ATTENTION. 50 REPLIES HERE AND NOT ONE IN FAVOR OF THE DBO RULE PITCHER PROTECTION RULE.

Don Newhard
#22 - OLR NightHawks 50 Major
Feb. 26, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Joe...Sorry for your confusion... I'm not on a mission about THE new ball, only about A new ball. And I'm not associated with anyone or anything... I'm just me, expressing my opinion, just like you... Therefore it is disingenuous of you to continue to suggest otherwise... And as far as my identity is concerned, my friends know who I am... And for you to attempt to glean additional information about me through this message board is so far out of line, I am amazed that you have been allowed to continue to post.

Don ... You are entirely correct... Safety equipment should be used if one feels the need... the point I was trying to make is that there was a time when safety equipment was not necessary.

#6... I won't be there.
Feb. 27, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Einstein I'll address your points of emphasis:
-If protecting the pitcher is the goal the only way to truly protect him is to put a screen in front of him
-The balls we use are fine, no need to change them
-Nothing wrong with hitting a good decent ball as far as you can. The balls we use are fine but IMO we don't need ultra 2's to achieve that. There are plenty of good bats available that lend itself this.
-Most events are run efficiently. Occasionally issues come up that when or if resolved won't be satisfactory to everyone but that's how it goes sometimes. We play ball, not worry about what the TD does
-Pitching box rules and arc are OK as they are. If it keeps getting tinkered pretty soon they'll let them pitch from second base or pitchers will be permitted to throw overhand. Then it becomes even more of a "gimmick" game.
-I like starting with a 1-1 count or 3-2 w/ one to waste.
--Get rid of the ultra 2!!
-your take on hr rule & runs per inning is fine. I don't mind the out after reaching a limit. Perhaps the NSA 1 up rule would be a better fit to satisfy both ends
-I don't know how the powers that be come up with the rules. No matter how they arrive at them or what rules are implemented there are going to be a group of players that will object. Many will even go so far as to cast blame on the rules for their teams performance. I say to them it's OK to disagree with rules but the rules are the same for everyone. Work on your game to get better.
Just my $0.02 worth
Hope you and yours are well!!
Feb. 27, 2009
curt
Men's 50
11 posts
There should be no one up rule. If you go over the limit, it should be an out. If your team
continually goes over the limit, move up, you can hit more Hrs. When you get in the batters box, you know what the situation is. If you hit it out for an out, you miss hit the ball. No different than hitting a rocket, right at someone. Pitchers need to field their positions. I dont know if either the HR rule (potentially more shots up the middle) or the DBO out rule (discouraging shots up the middle) is going to change that. Protective equipment and a 5th infielder are options.
March 1, 2009
WOW
197 posts
#19
I don't pitch and if I did, I'd protect myself. Your welcome to your opinion and so anm I.
March 1, 2009
plumberman
4 posts
Been a pitcher since my knees started slowing done my foot speed,those of you who know me mite ask what speed,but I was a good outfielderonce,Do away with pitcher protection rule,its does no good,most seasoned pichers arn't in box area any way,I know I'm not,last year in Phoenix proved that, got hit lots of times,never got a dead ball call,Love the home run rule,most of the time the pitcher can tell a big swinger who only knows how to swing for the fence and feed that eazy out,can also contol a lot of not being able to get at the pitcher,still pict for and older team playing against kids in tournaments and we have fun watching them try to kill every pitch,home run rules we bring back defense and running bases skills.4-5 years ago we won major worlds,with speed and defense,got move up to major plus,could not compete,12 guys on a team that hit it 400 feet every time to our 10 base hits every inning just wore us out,by 6 inning,NO PPR,Limit home runs and let us play,And Donny I know PPR rule dosn't help you either,your always standing on 2nd when the ball is hit
March 5, 2009
lew
Men's 65
1 posts
Being a pitcher myself, I'm in favor of implementing some kind of rule to protect the pitcher but the DBO/PPR is not the answer. I'm not in favor of the pitcher having a screen either as I still enjoy fielding my position.

I also know as a hitter that I can not ALWAYS avoid hitting the ball up the middle whether it is due to poor swing mechanics (timing) and/or due to movement (curve, knuckleball, etc.) of the ball being pitched.

Since getting hit in the face 3 years ago from a hard hit ball that took a bad hop off the pitching rubber, I do wear protective equipment. However, even though I will continue to wear my face mask and shin guards, I believe that it is all of our responsibility to do a better job of keeping the 'hot', illegal bats from being used in our sport (The true homerun hitters don't need to use the latest bat technology or cheat to hit HRs).

Injuries to pitchers, infielders and even spectators has increased from batted balls since our sport started using composite bats and even more so, when some batters start juicing/altering these already HOT bats.
March 5, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Glad to see someone else realize that if you really believe safety is an issue then the bats are the place to begin.
March 5, 2009
AlleninGa
Men's 60
113 posts
It becomes more evident every time you post that your "only issue" is to belittle and downgrade a "great game" that you have been unable to adjust to.

It's hell getting "old" isn't it?
March 5, 2009
SlopitchRR
Men's 50
24 posts
Come on guys think about it, they can't change the ball or the bats, that's who their major sponsors are, so they have to change the rules.
March 5, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
After reading all the input on this topic and a bunch of non-related pot shots at each other IMO senior moments has it close to right.Adding an 11Th player would do a number of things to help solve a number of issues.
#1 it would add approx. 650 starting positions at all levels.At $35 a player good for business.Increasing participation.
#2 it would help to discourage hitting up the middle.
#3it would help to speed up games by tightening the defence to cut down on hitting alleys.To produce more outs.Coupled with HR limit DBOs.
#4help teams be more competitive.The best teams in each Div. are separated from the rest by 3 or 4 of their top hitters lets say 1 thru 4.By adding another hitter to the line up batters 1 thru 4 would each lose one at bat per game.Thus helping to equalize line ups.
I know that there are other things positive that would come out of this and I will let the MB decide that.
Thanks for reading.
Ray
March 5, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Gekle BUilders.......That which you say may be true, but, think that 10 is enough players. Many teams play with a 5 man infield and are succesfull at it. We don't need any more players out there.
March 5, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
salio2k I guess my question is, would you rather have more rules (pitchers box DBO) or more players deciding the out come?Like you mentioned,when teams go to a 5 man infield hitters try to keep the ball out of the infield and hit out field gaps.Safer for infielders and pitchers?I think so.
Thanks for your reply
Ray
March 5, 2009
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Sal, spoken like a true hitter,lol.

Gekle, I agree with all you said. I'm an old 16" hitter, and think a man up the middle would be a great addition to softball. No more rollers up the middle going for cheap hits. It would tighten up the other holes too. More double-plays and tighter defense would make the game a lot more fun.
March 5, 2009
Mr. Manassas
225 posts
The 11th player idea may be the answer other than a screen. The rules of games are made to be changed.
March 5, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Joe can't open Atlantis file with M+ schedules.Can you give me a call I'll e-mail you my #
March 5, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Allen, you would know. I am NO where near 60.

Gekle, it would be best to have bats that are not special just for seniors. Then you wouldn't have to have either.

March 5, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Dirty you think it is OK to hit the middle with none senior bats and balls.Do you think it will hurt any less?I don't mind you responding to my post but at least make some sense in what you are saying.
March 5, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I have been suggesting 11 defensive players for the last 2 years to the powers to be but what the hell do I know. Like Gekle said it gives more people a chance to play and that is what senior softball used to be about. It would protect the pitcher more than the new rule and also take the umpire out of making a pure judgement call. Just my thoughts.
March 6, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Gekle, yes it is. Though it is also okay with the special bats. EVERY baseball/softball field I have been on the past 45 years the center of the field is just as much a part of the field as any other.

Would it hurt just as much? Sure, but getting hit has always hurt. The risk is part of the game, as is the risk when sliding, running into a fence, colliding with a teammate, being taken out at second base, and on and on.....
March 6, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Dirty I agree that the middle is part of the field and I don't like PPR/DBO or HR limits for M+.and you don't have to remind me about special bats and balls.We don't hit the middle out respect for opposeing team.I know you pitch and I'm pretty sure you won't want our players hitting back at you. My comment on the MB was simply trying to offer something more practical than the PPR/DBO and keep the game in the hands of players not umpire/rules.We play, like alot of other teams 11 players in league.ASA rules and equip. and it is just fine.Have a great day.
Ray
March 6, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Ray, nothing against your players but it wouldn't matter. We both know it is part of the game.
March 6, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Ray, I have to agree with Dirty on this one. I think if you keep adding & changing rules pretty soon we'll be playing a "gimmick" type game. Everyone who takes the field risks getting hurt. Instead of 11 fielders the best thing is to get rid of the "senior bats"--ultra 2 and others like it. There are plenty of good bats right out of the wrapper.
March 6, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
stick8............I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I may not be speaking for you and dirty, but at least 90% of seniors that play tournaments own more than one "senior bats". SSUSA uses the fact that they allow 1.20 bats on their web site.Look in any dugout........all senior bats. What are we to do with these bats? We could sell them to kids so that they can paint them as ASA bats. Of course, these "special ASA bats" that hit just like Ultras would find their way into our tournaments sooner or later. Also, as has been stated before, bat manufacturers put a lot of money into senior softball.
March 6, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
salio, I am sure you are correct that the special bats are here to stay. My ONLY point is the guys who insist on them should not ever talk about safety, because what they insist on is a prime cause of whatever safety issues they believe exist.
March 6, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Salio2k hot, shaved or rolled bats making their way in is not the point. Of course it will happen and there are ways to deal with that also. The subject is the pitcher protection/dead ball out rule. People have suggested ways to deal the rule--11 fielders, screen, change the ball, change hr rule etc. If all this is implemented and we now have a "gimmick" type game. What's next? Pitching overhand? Pitching from 2nd base? the outfield? How about a pitching machine? Right field is out? Your opening up a can of worms. Dirty is exactly right--injuries can happen at any position on the field and people who insist on using the senior or hot bats shouldn't even talk safety.
March 6, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
I'm in clomplete agreement with Tate22.......If you want protection, you will have to purchase chin guards and a mask. I don't want any "gimmick" type game either. I just want to continue playing with the rules which were in place when I began playing senior softball 11 years ago. I don't remember hearing any complaints about 1-up and singles with homers after the limit. I don't think that seniors ever try to hurt a pitcher. I know that all the balls that I have hit at the pitcher were either my bad choice of pitches or the pitcher making me hit his pitch back at him. (with 2 strikes of course). A lot of pitchers actually want you to hit a nice two hopper back at him for a double play. I certainly don't want to make any outs, let alone hit a double play. Not all pitchers are afraid to pitch. Also, remember that TH allowed the U2 bacause the seniors wanted it. Those seniors don't like these new rules either. All I can say is......GLOVE UP!
March 6, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Stick,I think we are missing the point here.I agree with Sal bat and ball combos are here to stay.Whether we like it or not.SOOOO because of that they are going to have some kind of PPR for liability reasons and safety.Everybody knows that these bats are hot and pitchers are at risk.I know that there is a reasonable amount of risk in the game but this is I think beyond that.So with that in mind would you rather have this ridiculous new PPR or add a player to the infield?When you think about it,it would again take away some of the advantage of these bats blasting balls thru the infield.JMO
March 6, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Stick don't let Ray talk to you like that. Matter of fact if you two can't resolve this I know of a team out west that could sure use a high OBP leadoff hitter. I would sure hate to see this little issue come between the two of you LOL. You two getting a little spring fever maybe? Ray another note did you get my email I sent. I pasted the schedules right into the email.
March 6, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Got it Joe.Yea if I can't get my own players to agree with me I guess I'm the one barking up the wrong tree.If he doesn't come over to my way of thinking I will have to move him down to 2ND in the order.LOL

65 degrees today
March 9, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Ray, in all honesty I would favor neither. There's nothing wrong with the balls SSUSA uses, it's the bats I have an issue with. I do understand safety concern. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the intent of the DBO/PPR rule to protect the pitcher? Since there is no screen in front of the pitcher he really isn't "protected" in the true definition of the word. He's still 50+ feet away in a vulnerable position. To protect the pitcher that said pitcher should invest in some protective equipment--face shield, chin guards, etc--especially with U-2's being legal. IMO an 11th fielder wouldn't do any more to protect the pitcher from being drilled.
March 9, 2009
stick8
1261 posts
Joe, are you trying to start a rift between us at Gekle Builders? LOL
Actually Ray and I think pretty much alike but imo, implementing all these different rules makes it more of a "gimmick" game. It opens it up for even more "gimmicks". Pretty soon they'll let'em pitch from 2nd base or overhand!! I wish they'd simply ban the U-2 (and comparable others) but that's not happening.
It is nice to know I'd have a team to play on if I ever decided to move out west and I do thank you for those sentiments.
And yes I'm getting spring fever. It got up to almost 70 last week so the juices are beginning to flow.
Joe with all that good weather out there you must be in mid-season form, right?
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