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Discussion: With All Due Respect...

Posted Discussion
March 4, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
With All Due Respect...
With all due respect to the individuals involved
that email that all of us got from SS-USA
restating their policy/decision/new rules
is arbitrary and not binding.

SS-USA has many times in their past
decided independently of precedent and norm
to fit a given situation.
Who says they can't reevaluate what they have changed and decreed for this year
especially in the face of great unpopularity
and evidence that at least a couple of HUGE
mistakes were made?

Send back a reply to the email
from info@seniorsoftball.com
get and sign D.Dalton's petition,
post your objection on this site
and tell them what you think of the their
authoritarian posture and what they should
do about the mistakes we/they already know
they have made.
When I make a mistake that affects others
it's MY responsibility to make it right.
Not wait until those offended press me
to get it done.
C'mon man.

If a new found respect for us,
senior softball players,
and their relationship to us
as well as our respect for them
having risen to the occasion
grow from this argument/conflict
that won't be a bad thing at all
for all parties involved, will it?

And why should we suffer through a year
with a bunch of us getting hurt unnecessarily
to wait to change a pair of rules
that we can evidence are not in our best interest,
won't work and are unacceptable to us.
We shouldn't.

SS-USA, whoever you are
step up and do the right thing.
March 4, 2009
JamesLG
295 posts

Hey Joe:

Great post and I truly hope for the respect of the game SSUSA revisits these two issues.

Thank You:

James
March 4, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Joe:
Well said with your usual passion. You know I'm on this bandwagon with you. I already replied to the "Great and Powerful OZ" (aka TH) email from SSUSA. We, OLR Nighthawks, will be pushing the petition at the Escondido Tournament this weekend.

POWER TO THE PLAYERS!!

Don Newhard
March 5, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Don,
Last time I saw you
you took me deep with the bases loaded
with a walk off HR somewhere
in Southern California.

There's one or two more guys behind that curtain
Don but the buck stops with SS-USA and Terry.

Let's hope they will rise to the occasion
and show us the character and kind of leadership
we both need and deserve.
Responsible, responsive, flexible,
accountable and caring.

March 6, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Hey Joe: (great song btw)
Every now and then I find the jetstream. You're being kind, I know you were muttering Bucky F'ing Dent as the ball left the yard. (:<}

From the post on the re-rating, it seems as if TH is listening. I share the hope that they will take the next step with the PPR and change it now instead of being stubborn about a rule that does nothing to protect pitchers and adds controversy to the game.

Don
March 6, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
The Leaves. :)
March 6, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Right you are DC 5. Bring back the R&R trivia. I'm bored with rules and re-rating. We (OLR Nighthawks)got bumped to 55 Major Plus, that will teach us to mess with Bandits in Phoenix!

Cheers;
Don Newhard
March 6, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
Bewitched....you guys will have no problems at Major+....And RR Trivia will return soon.
March 6, 2009
the wood
1071 posts
It seems to me, in reading Terry's statement, that Terry(SSUSA)is willing to re-visit both rules when they re-convene in December. That said, we have now played in 2 SSUSA events this season and will play in Mesquite later this month. We have not seen anything that suggests that the pitcher is in any more danger than before. We have seen, however, the application of the PPR several times and most of them were correct calls (given the rules).
The only serious injury that I have personally heard about happened in a non-SSUSA tourney last month (Palm Springs)... as far as I know, there was no PPR in effect (I wasn't there and heard about it from someone else).
SSUSA has also put a lot of its time into the process of moving teams up and I'm not in a position to speak to the fairness of this as I don't know all of the teams that have been impacted. I do feel though that SSUSA is doing exactly what they said they would (shortly after these rules were made public, Dec. 08). The ball is now in our court to work within the framework of it all, at least for 3 events.
For what it's worth, I am not part of the 10 person group (rating advisors) and I'm glad of this. There are specific elements of the new rules that I don't like but you can't please everyone no matter how hard you try. Our posture (GSF's) will be to show up to play and will leave the reform movement to others.
The grass is growing, the clouds are parting and it's time for us to play ball. In my opinion, these changes will be a success IF we see more teams in our brackets... to me, success and perfect are not the same. The flip side is a utopian society known only to very few (as in a 3 team bracket).
SSUSA has expressed itself and is standing firm with it... at least until December. In the interim, we will participate and then draw our conclusions after the season over.
BW
March 6, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's your take, Bob.
That's not mine and a lot of others.

SS-USA made a set of HUGE mistakes,
are accountable for them
and need to correct them
or risk losing the respect and support
of a major segment of the senior softball community.
There's no reason to wait a year.
That's arbitrary nonsense.

If they had checked with us
those who play the game
they would have learned our needs and wants
about it and known it never would work
or be accepted.
And the worst part is
pitchers and infielders will be endangered
needlessly as a result
which is unacceptably wrong.

I won't participate in SS-USA events
if/until these rules are rescinded
and won't contribute to this needless endangerment
to players that these rules will mean.


March 6, 2009
Mac21
Men's 65
35 posts
I agree with you Bob....it's time to shut up and play ball with the rules we've been given. It's obvious to most of us that no matter how much whining there is about them...they are not going to be changed. Only time will tell how the rules will play out. So we either play ball with the rules as they stand or you sit on the sidelines as it appears Einstein has chosen to do.

I only ask one thing. Since we are going to have to play with the Pitcher Protection Rule the only thing I ask is that the rule be handed out and explained to all umpires at every tournament so it is applied correctly and uniformly. It is obvious from previous posts that not all umpires understand the rule and how to apply it.
March 7, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
With all due respect.......yawn.
March 7, 2009
the wood
1071 posts
Joe, I have a wall plague that reads like this 'Lord, please grant me the SERENITY to accept the things that I cannot change, the COURAGE the change the things that I can and the WISDOM to know the difference'.
You're exactly right... it is my 'take' and that of my teammates... and our position is that we'd rather play ball than not... if you choose the opposite, more power to you.
I KNOW that I'm too old to dwell on stuff that is out my control. At its highest moment, it is still only senior softball. There are other, more pressing elements in my life that I need to address so I'll be paying more close attention to them... among them are things that I CAN impact... things like family, career, retirement, health, etc.
BW
March 7, 2009
busdriver
18 posts
if they dont change the rules i will take my bat and go home!
March 7, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Woody:
I'm done with worrying about the HR rule, accept the notion that the rating process is what it is, but I'm not ready to the suggestion to "shut up" on the PPR rule. What are your thoughts on the points that the PPR rule doesn't actually protect pitchers and adds a subjective, after the fact punishment for an act that was almost certainly not intended to hurt anyone?

Don Newhard
March 7, 2009
SSUSA Staff
1007 posts
Mac21 ... For any umpire, manager or player interested in the official SSUSA "White Paper" on the application and interpretations regarding the Pitcher Rule, please click on this link:

Pitcher Rule Memorandum

This information was previously posted here in late January and is always available through an identical link from the Rules Page ... Hope this helps!
March 7, 2009
Mac21
Men's 65
35 posts
SSUSA Staff....Thanks for responding. I understand the rule and I'm aware of the "White Paper" on the application and iterpretations of the PPR and have read it more than once. However, there have been posts on this message board that indicate it is not being applied correctly. There were posts that complained that an umpire was callig dead ball outs if the ball passed through the pitchers box without striking the pitcher. Another post complained that line drives that passed directly over the pitchers head were called DBO's. There were a couple other examples that I don't remember at the moment...but my point is if the rule is going to stand, lets make sure it's applied correctly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the rule should never be applied unless the ball actually strikes the pitcher in the head, neck, torso or legs and in some instances (which are explained in the "White Paper") the arms including the glove. At no time should the rule be applied if the ball does not strike the pitcher.

I know that before we start any game this year we will ask the umpire to explain how he or she intends to apply the PPR.
March 7, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
244 posts
Staff,on this PPR why is it that the pitcher has to be in the box for it to be called? This makes the Umps job a lot harder, the pitcher is most cases is backing up kicking up dust,the line gets marked out after a few innings and there will be a lot of guessing where pitcher is when hit by batted ball. Why not remove this part of rule, most pitcher's are out of the box anyway and it will give the Ump one less thing to worry about. I have never like this rule from the start but if we have to live with it please remove this part. If the pitcher is a foot out of box and gets hit its going to hurt just as bad as if he was just inside of box!
March 7, 2009
DCPete
228 posts
JohnBob; granted the rule stinks & doesn't begin to do what it's supposed to do, but if the pitcher didn't have to be in the box where would you draw the line? The pitcher could be all the way over to the 3B line against a RH hitter so he could effectively take away 1/2 the infield.
March 7, 2009
the wood
1071 posts
Don, you asked me what are my thoughts on the PPR... I understand your grief about the penalty for the hitter... we both saw it called many times in AZ... Yes, I agree that it is an imposition.
further, what impact the rule will have on safety is arbitrary... some even feel that it is counter-productive to the point of creating a false sense of security... there is no proof of this, pro or con... so it's just opinion v. opinion.
My position is that 'it is what it is'and it won't change until December so I intend to lose zero sleep over it. We played with it all last season and there was less hubbub over it... and I'm aware that theories abound that suggest that in conjunction with the HR DBO it is all the more dangerous to pitchers... again, it won't change until December and I have no interest in beating my head against the wall at this time. It aint perfect but it's a rule that my team has to live with.
Hypothetical question... how come less noise was made about the broken leg in Palm Springs than the potential issues with the PPR in SSUSA?
4X4: thanks for the personal feedback... I did indeed intend to say 'plaque' rather than 'plague'...
BW
March 7, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
244 posts
DCPete,the pitcher has to be in pitcher box when he release pitch it's always been that way but has to remain in the box for DBO to be called,that's the way I read the rule & the way it was called in World Championships in 2008. I'm saying most pitch then back up towards 2rd base & by the time the ball is hit there are out of box ,so if hit DBO should not be called. That's the way I read the rule if I'm wrong let me know.
March 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Not only is the rule ridiculously hard to interpret
and apply
IT DOESN'T WORK.
It's designed to keep big guys
from hitting the middle
and, hear me on this clearly,
IT WON'T WORK.
It's a mistake that needs correction.

It won't keep me or any of the hitters I know
from hitting the middle any time they want
except in a game winning/losing AB.
It doesn't deter guy from putting the fear of god
in a pitcher at any time.
It won't deter a player who wants to get back
at their pitcher or going at ours.
It won't deter a hitter who's willing to trade
an out to hit someone he doesn't like
and there's lots of pitchers that hitters don't like.
IT WON'T AND DOESN'T WORK
which simply means
pitchers won't be meaningfully protected
this year unless they let the extra HRs be walks.
That's the most effective unwritten rule
deterrent we have
to keeping missiles off pitchers.
That's really the way our game is played
and why don't they get it
or want to...
March 7, 2009
Mr. Manassas
223 posts
I don't like the rule and I am a pitcher!!!! There is only one way to protect the pitcher and that is a screen....if you are going to let people use the "senior" bats. I like the bats as a batter but they are dangerous to the infielders no matter how quick you are.
March 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Mr. Manassas.
You miss my point.
There is a way to protect the pitcher
meaningfully well
and it comes from the HR as singles rule
which allows the Biggest, strongest
and usually the best hitters to stay off the middle
and, they do.
This is already in effect and DOES demonstrably
work and almost every player I talk to gets this
and agrees.
You are entitled to your opinion
but so are we.

March 7, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Woody:
I wasn't in Palm Springs for the broken leg, but I'll venture a guess that a pair of shin guards like your pitcher uses would have prevented that injury. I'm also positive that the PPR rule could not and would not protect that pitcher or any other pitcher. Why would any noise need to made about the Palm Springs incident, unless it was intentional? I don't lose a minutes sleep over any senior softball issues, but neither do I refrain from protesting really bad decisions that do nothing but add controversy to games. It is insulting to call this rule pitcher protection. A thin air/no fly zone won't keep the ball off the pitcher. If the intent of the rule is to punish hitting the middle then call the rule the "don't hit up the middle rule"

Don
March 8, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
244 posts
the wood,I agree with your outlook on this rule it's in so lets play. Part of the rule reads THE PITCHER'S BOX IS THE ONLY SAFE FOR APPLICATIN OF THE PITCHER SAFETY RULE. Sorry about shouting lol but this statement eliminates any protection for our pitcher's or most that pitch because they pitch than backup out of box. As some as posted Ump's don't like this rule and I belive this is the main reason why. Question how many pitcher's that view this board pitch and stay in box? I would guess less than 20%,heck if you pitch from back of box and take a step back your out of box there's NO so called protection and if you pitch from rubber and just stand there please find another position! Bottom line is I would like to see the part of the rule removed,its to hard for ump's to watch this with all the duties they have.
March 8, 2009
the wood
1071 posts
Don, my point about the PS incident is that this was an actual injury, a serious one at that. Yet, less has been said about it than all of the 'potential injuries' that the PPR might create. The shin guards would have made a difference, to some degree... but, as I said, I wasn't there.
Would you prefer that they change the nomenclature of the rule from PPR to HPR, hitter punishment rule? If so, would this be an improvement from your perspective?
Don, if you feel so strongly that you wish to dwell on a rule that won't be changed until December, suit yourself.
The good news about all of the dialogue on this matter is that it has taken some of the attention away from the new ratings.
BW
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