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Discussion: Question for those who pitch

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March 12, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Question for those who pitch
To you brave folks that pitch do you remain in pitcher box after you pitch or do you back up out of box? The reason I'm asking is with this PPR that looks like we have till Dec. only protects you if you are in box when Hit. To me this only protects those that pitch and just stand there. This part of the rule is opening a can of worms makes it very hard on Umpire to watch this with everthing else there watching. If we are stuck with this rule this year I would like to see this part removed,protect all the pitcher's not just the one's that stay in box!
March 12, 2009
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
In my opinion I think it best to back up two steps and break down to defend your self, regardless of the rule. i think that the rule is a waste of time.
March 12, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
For myself it's situational where I go or move. Some guys pull or can go either way. You need to cover all areas & bases. So you really have movement all directions, as well as in the box.
Read the definition PROTECTION or associated words.
This rule does not do that.
March 12, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The rule is a joke
and won't protect the pitcher
as was it was designed to do.
This means that pitchers will be in more danger
than last year because HR's as outs means
all the big guys from the beginning of the game
will be juicing the infield to keep the ball in the park.
This makes SS-USA meaningfully responsible
for the increased number of injuries
that will occur this year because they don't want
to recognize their error and correct it
before December.
That's real feedback from the senior softball community and a responsible position
in response to the changes that were made.

March 12, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
I agree with all that the rule is terrible but can anyone explaim to me why the pitcher has to remain in the box when hit for DBO to be called.
March 12, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
I think the only person(s) who could answer that, is the author(s).
March 13, 2009
Ray2
Men's 50
3 posts
I don't remain in the box after I pitch, as well as the majority of pitchers that i have seen. The PPR rule does nothing to help me. If you are going to use this rule it should be any batted ball hit through the pitchers zone being the individual width and height of the pitcher and positioned directly behind the rubber. If I choose to position myself outside the width of the rubber to the sides I am fair game.
The other thing that I can think of that will help keep pitchers safer with out without screens, and I do use protective equipment, is not to make home runs outs. Use the one up rule to help teams that may not have as much power as the opposing team. I have seen a lot lower divisiono teams here in Nor Cal stay with upper division teams and beat them on occasions using this rule.
March 13, 2009
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
Here is why the Pitcher Rule only applies to a pitcher in the Pitcher's Box ... When the rule was first implemented (7+ years ago in the 40-Masters), it applied to the pitcher no matter where he was on the field of play ... It remained that way when the Pitcher Rule was extended to the 50-55-60 Major+ in early 2008, UNTIL the Major+ Task Force Rules Recommendations were adopted last summer ... At the SOLE request of the Major+ Task Force, the rule was modified to limit its application to only the Pitcher's Box, under a theory that it was unfair to the batter to keep the ball out of the middle and then have the pitcher "running into the line of fire" ... It's analogous to givng a pedestrian a safety zone in a cross-walk, but not if that same pedestrian darts into traffic while jaywalking ... It also clearly defines a limited area for a safe haven without removing the pitcher from the game defensively should he/she choose to leave the area of the Pitcher's Box ... Hope this helps ...
March 13, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
How deep is the pitcher's box?
March 13, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
6 feet x 2 feet
March 13, 2009
J3
208 posts
I pitch and I like many use the full extent of the box at the time the ball is pitched and then in essence head for higher ground. For me that means backing up to the left or right depending on the batter. The pitcher is a defensive player by design. I prefer to protect myself then to have a bad rule protect me.
March 13, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Thanks taits.

My take. Any pitcher that does not/cannot get more than 6' back from the rubber after release does not deserve protection. He is doing little/nothing to protect himself, why should the batter have to?
March 13, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Here it is in Black an White.
A rule from the 40 Masters applied
to senior softball.
Why, by whom and FOR whom?

Senior Ball and 40 ball are NOT the same game.
I've played them both and know this to be true
and I prefer the senior game
for a ton of reasons.
Who thought this could/work?
I have my own ideas about where and who
this comes from but
it surely didn't come from us.
This shows the distance I've referred to
on many occasions between Associations like
SSUSA and the senior softball community
that tends to produce rule changes
that are unpopular and don't work.

Senior guys like to have a good time
for their investment for which
hitting a ball hard and well is fundamental.
Because we're slower reacting
we don't need the biggest and strongest guys
zooming the short infielders
like what happens in the 40s game
so we play with HRs as singles and they
for the most part, stay away from us.

Here it is, guys and gals
in black and white,
the sore spot and its cause in the relationship
between senior softball and associations like
SS-USA.
It's never too late for the truth and
there's always time to rectify important mistakes
if we're mature, flexible and caring.
March 13, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
As far as I can tell SSUSA is neither a democracy, a publicly-held corporation, a governmental agency, or the only game in town.

Hence, they are completely free to do whatever they want so long as it is not in violation of any laws of the land. And I don't think the PPR qualifies as a violation.

Good God, you have been heard (ad nauseum) and apparently disregarded.
March 13, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Dear SSUSA Staff:
Since you are participating in this dialogue could you please explain how a 6' x 2' area of flat ground and a vertical plane of thin air provides a "safe haven/safety zone" or provides protection for pitchers? I haven't seen a post yet that supports that notion, and I certainly haven't seen it work on the field.

Instead of imposing a well-intended but clumsy rule that doesn't protect anybody and punishes hitters, I'd like SSUSA to take leadership in researching and recommending the best protective equipment available for pitchers. (Dirty, I'm not advocating mandatory use of equipment, only suggested) SSUSA is to be commended for taking the lead in other areas of health and safety like the defibrilators, why not continue in the area of player protection. I'm sure you've read the posts, players don't believe that this rule protects.

Respectfully;
Don Newhard
March 13, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
SSUSA Staff Thanks for explaining the reasoning that the pitcher has to be in box for protection by PPR & I agree it would be unfair to the batter if pitcher was running or darting from right or left of pitcher box into the line of fire,but most pitcher's back straight back and remain within the 2' width of the box but out of the back of box this rule does nothing for them. I would guess that over 70% or more of senior pitcher's back out of box after pitching and takes a defensive position,I know both of our's do, so why not change the wording to protect these. If he pitches are runs toward 3rd base then I can see not protection,maybe a straight jacket lol. also it would make it a lot easier on the Umpire's. This should be a easy fix by the Major+ Task Force. Thanks John Coffman player/mgr Jim & Joe's 60 Major
March 13, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Don, well said.
We're trying to help get SS-USA to be consistent
with it's flexible, responsive, conscientious side
we all love and have experienced
instead of it's arrogant, self-centered
and elitist side
so senior softball can continue our important relationship with them on into the future.

This is important and defining stuff just like most
everything going on in society right now.
Time to be or not to be.
Show who we are and who they are
and what we've got in common going forward.

We don't want to go back to the 40's game.
Been there, done that.
We had a blast all last year and in Phoenix
thanks to SSUSA.
We don't want our game changed
to what worked for the 40's masters.
That ain't us.
Are you listening SS-USA?

We need and deserve an association that is responsive and representative of us
and our game, that reflects the best and
the whole of us, the soul of us,
the senior game which as many have said
has been evolving for some time now
with us as equipment changes and
we get older.
That's what this is all about and nothing less.
Get it?

We've already showed SSUSA
what the vast majority thinks about
and needs regarding PPR and HR's as outs.
We don't like them or want them.
It's up to them to respond to us,
continue to seek out, survey and poll us
down the road or
lose us and our support down the road.

And lastly for now and I've said it before
the lack of enjoyment and
increased danger to pitchers and infielders
we all know exists with these "new rules"
in place will be the responsibility of SS-USA
and we will hold them accountable.




March 13, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
Back to the original question: yes, I back up when I pitch, but not two steps, usually three!:) Not all the times. When I know a batter, I will often field from the rubber, but for unknown, I back up. Only problem is that takes additional wear and tear on muscles. I have been the only pitcher at times on my team. In Palm Springs, I pitched all seven games we played, most against teams unfamiliar to me. Was I sore afterwards from backing up!

As to the rules, of course the PPR doesn't protect very much (it does stop deliberate hits up the middle—too risky). I'm not sure Einstein is correct that all the sluggers will be pounding the middle because of the new home run rule. Seems like an insult to those capable hitters. That being said, I prefer the one-up home run rule and I am anxiously awaiting the new balls that will slow the ball down through the whole infield (it's not only pitchers who get injured, but corner infielders too).
March 13, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
OK,
If you're not sure ask other players
and they'll tell you what you need to know
about whether the sluggers
will be torching the mound.
I would do it and did.
Ask Clatta or Bull Kramer, just to name a few.

I've played a lot of 40 and over ball over the last couple of years and those guys ignite the middle
all the time.
And thanks for verifying what I've been saying all along that there's a movement afoot
driven by just a few mind you
to dumb down our equipment and change
our game to suit not our but their agendas.

Here we go again.
It will get clearer all the time.
I said making HR's outs was the first step
to dumbing down the balls for next year.
Somebody thought we're stupid
and couldn't figure it out
but they were wrong.

TD's and some marketeers
are trying to change our game
to the 40's game for their own ends.
Tournaments easier to manage,
less balls are lost just to name a few.
Connect the dots and follow the money.

The senior game is meangingfully different
from the 40's game and that's where
all the problems arise.
They'll take it from us if we let them.


March 14, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
This thread is quite interesting
informative and representative
of how the VAST majority of us
feel about PPR rule and it's associate
HR's as outs and why and how
these mistakes may have come about.
It's all in black and white.
Check it out.
March 15, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
As far as I can tell SSUSA is neither a democracy, a publicly-held corporation, a governmental agency, or the only game in town.

Hence, they are completely free to do whatever they want so long as it is not in violation of any laws of the land. And I don't think the PPR qualifies as a violation.

Good God, you have been heard (ad nauseum) and apparently disregarded.
March 15, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
322 posts
During games I am very alert and aware where my pitches are going and get into the defensive position quickly. I will often move to my right if I believe the batter is a 5 hole hitter. I also have and will wear protective equipment depending on the environment, field, weather conditions and team being played.

PS...Watch 3 games Saturday in Montgomery, AL between 50 major and major plus teams and observed ONLY one ball through the pitchers box. The home run rule for those games were 2 homers and a single. Seems that those guys had great bat control.
March 15, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hi Len,
Those left and right movements mean
you're interested in playing defense,
not just chuck and duck.
I appreciate this as I'm sure your teammates do
and wets my appetite once again
to work on a pitching video as there's a great
deal involved with pitching good-better-best
that both pitchers and hitters can benefit from.
Perhaps more guys don't torch the middle on you
because you will get them out.
That is a deterrent at times.

2 homers and a single, you say.
Yeah. That keeps the big boys from
going through the box unless they miss
or provoked and that's the way we had it
last year at most to all tournaments.
That's the way it makes the most sense
to the most of us.
March 15, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Thanks for the reply's from you that pitch. Like I thought all pitch and move out of box a lot, some straight back some to right or left. When this rule was put in Senior ball it was for Major+ only then in October for World Championships put in all division's,so I guess that's why M+ Task Force made & modified this rule. If it was modified once it can be again. I think Ray2 put it best he wrote. The PPR should be any batted ball that hit through the Pitchers Zone if the pitcher is positioned directly behine the rubber and if he moved outside of the rubber or sides of box then he's fair game I agree totally,
March 15, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Question is there a Senior Player,Manger,Sponsor,TD,Unpire out there that would have a problem with the PPR be modified to protect a pitcher who backs straight back out of the back of box as long as he keeps one foot in the 2' width of box?
March 16, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
322 posts
JohnBob,

1. I wipe out the lines. Ump can't tell.
2. I cover the rubber with dirt since I like a smooth field.
3. When the rubber is covered with dirt I can place my foot 6-8 or more inches off of the rubber...Ump can't tell. LOL
4. I move around very frequently, front, back, left, right, etc.
5. After I release I breakdown to defend.
I do not like the PPR. As a professional safety person, It does nothing to protect the pitcher.
March 16, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
Airbosn,
You can pitch from the back of the pitchers box. Forget 6 inches off the rubber--deliver from 6 feet off the rubber.
March 17, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Bob50,I belive Airbosn meant he sometimes pitch's from 6-8 inches to the side of the rubber. On my question I posted on March 15th I meant to say does anyone have a problem with the PPR be modified to protect a pitcher who backs out of back of box or when pitching from the side keeps one foot in contact with the 2' width of box? Like Airbosn said lines get marked out Ump can't tell ,that's been my argument all along. A lot of Seeding games one Ump is used. He or she is watching the pitch,making sure we don't leave base early now this rule even with 2 Umps a lot of guessing will happen. Airbosn also said he moves alot most do and the way the rule reads now its going to be very hard on Ump's and most pitches gets no protection on a big % of pitches. I would hate to see a team fly across the country to have a game decided by a Ump guessing where the line is at back of box.
March 17, 2009
leftie
Men's 70
41 posts
I'm confused..But, that doesn't take much.
SSUSA Staff says:
"At the SOLE request of the Major+ Task Force, the rule was modified to limit its application to only the Pitcher's Box".
Does the Major + Task force set rules for the whole league?
Is it made up of Major+ players?
Is there a AA or AAA task force? Are there any reps from those divisions on the Major+ task force?
Seems that the smallest division in the league is making rules for everyone.
I believe that the present rule doesn't protect the pitcher. If I can throw a strike from second base..Who cares?
I also find it curious that all the big hitters don't like the new HR rule.
These are the same guys who tell a pitcher to change positions if he doesn't like the ball coming up the middle.
The only thing i can say to that is that maybe the "big hitters" should just
"base coach" and then the pitchers won't have to complain about them coming up the middle.
Happy St. Patrick's Day..





March 17, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"If I can throw a strike from second base..Who cares?"

It's called AGAINST THE RULES. Stuff like this just makes me scratch my head. Let's completely bastardize the game so guys can have their special bats and good "bat/ball combos".
March 17, 2009
leftie
Men's 70
41 posts
"bastardize" the game?
Let's see, we have an orange bag at first base.
There is no other ball game that I know of that has two home plates.
so, I guess just a little "bastardization" is OK.
AGAINST THE RULES? Seems that Senior Softball passes rules that seem not to be well thought out, so why not pitch from second base?
March 17, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
The two first bases make little sense to me. The two home plates make NO sense at all. Somehow it is safe to slide into second and third but not into home. Again, NO sense. For that matter, get rid of the mat. Strike zones were never meant to be horizontal, and certainly were not intended to have guys 5'6" and 6'8" have the same size zone. Again, NO sense. So what if an ump "misses" (keep in mind missing is in the eye of the beholder) the occasional call, he will still make far fewer mistakes than the average team does.

I cannot argue with your point about some of the wacky rules, but some line has to be drawn. I would prefer if the line was drawn at playing the game the way it was intended, but that does not seem to be in the cards for the old guys.

March 17, 2009
shortly50
Men's 50
41 posts
Dirty, Then why don't you spend your time on a usssa site?
March 17, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Ah yes, another member of the mindless, opinionless flock.

I will play with the prevailing rules, doesn't mean they have to all make any sense.
March 17, 2009
shortly50
Men's 50
41 posts
I play in 3 ASA leagues and all of them let the pitchers pitch from where ever they want, they don't have to start from the rubber.
March 17, 2009
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
to Airbosn if you covered the mound while I'm umping i would ask you to uncover it if you didn't i would do it myself if you covered it again i would ask the coach if you have another pitch and start calling balls until i see it
Hope that helps !lol
March 17, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
shorty50
That's not true ASA it's been modified to fit your leagues desire, many do it. Check your Rule 6 Sec 3, para E, for example. Oh, old book '06.
March 17, 2009
hitt2
354 posts
Airbosn
Believe me. Softballer would do as he says. He's a quality ump which watches everything. He's a hustler getting out from behind the plate to make calls at second and third. When he umps he has fun as well as the team on the field.
March 17, 2009
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
thanks hitt2 see you soon!
when you playing next?
March 17, 2009
hitt2
354 posts
Softballer
This weekend in Fremont your team is in our bracket.
March 17, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
Hitt2,
Only if he is a PU for them. His main team isn't listed.
March 17, 2009
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
that's right tait!
hitt2 i play for Timberworks Construction
March 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
hitt you got to be kidding me,softballer is about the blindest ump i ever seen,his brother much not much better.(:0),oh by the way i was in bounds when i caught the ball,replay proved it.:):)


for the subject,i do move around on the mound after delivering a pitch(sideways and backwards)tho i mostly pitch for the flat bellies.you do need to be set when the batter is starting his swing on the ball to be able to field your position i feel.i don't care for the NON-PPR as i say "non pitcher protection rule".
March 18, 2009
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
come on bob you can even see your shoes! and lets see the replay! and how much shadow was in the scene?
March 18, 2009
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
SORRY BOB THAT'S CAN'T SEE YOUR SHOES!
March 19, 2009
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
hitt2 thats the way all good umps should call a game.. keep up the good job softballer ,, cause we don't get many compliments like that unless we're good
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