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Discussion: Pitching Masks discussion

Posted Discussion
April 21, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Pitching Masks discussion
Here in Las Vegas among the young fellas over the last week or so there has been a movement amongst the pitchers to start to wear masks when pitching. Over the last several weeks there have been some head injuries, near miss head shots and a high profile facial injury within their peer group. Interesting how this starts. Their cheap enough I'm going to order one although I don't pitch to show around town. Anaconda has a Worth mask that looks interesting. I have a call into Kevin at Anaconda so hopefully I will have something to show around. Good luck out there.
April 21, 2009
hornachec
Men's 55
50 posts
Just to let everyone know Bill Ruth took one off the face this past Saturday at the Seattle Qualifier. Hit off his glove, fractured bone in his thumb and fractured orbital bone in two places. Was there when it happened and a good thing he got his glove up or it could have been a lot worse. He is now looking for a pitching mask.
Is the DBO home run rule causing more people to hit up middle when home runs are gone?
April 21, 2009
Caveman
Men's 50
64 posts
I purchased prior to this season. You can find the Game Face mask cheaper if you look around. They are fairly comfortable and I'm not ashamed to say that I wear one. All it takes is one mistake and you'll never play again. I'd imagine that if you did take one off the mask, you'd still have a concussion depending on where it hits.
April 21, 2009
green rocket
51 posts
Caveman, there's no shame in protecting one's face and life for that matter.

Officating, I took a shot off the mask from a foul tip in fast pitch some years back. It was the very first pitch of the season with the girl's 14 and under.

I was bleeding out of my nose and the coach said my eyes looked like one of those slot machines twirling around. I finished the game but my bell was rung big time. Later I found out I was concussed pretty good.

I wish for Ruth and everybody else a speedy recovery from a serious and ongoing occurance in today's softball play.
April 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jim,
I hope Bill recovers quickly and well.
He's a member of my club.
And yes,
there is no doubt more balls
will rocket through the middle
due to the witting/unwitting
rule changes by SSUSA to make HR's outs
and employ a PPR.
They have missed the boat big time
on this one and are responsible
for the injuries that will undoubtedly
take place, ironically and sadly
even to Bill Ruth.
Get better, Bill.
Change the rules back to last year.
No PPR and HR's as singles.

Joe Lecak,
masks are a good idea, too.
That Gameface mask mentioned
is cheap, light and doesn't
destroy peripheral vision.
A/C of the Old A's has one.




April 21, 2009
Norq44
58 posts
I was watching my youngest son play in Kissimmee this past weekend and was ringside for the middle wars that are currently being waged at the major and "A" levels. Imagine the very best hitters in the game of softball going middle. That is what is happening. In the game between Dan Smith and Johnnie Blaze in the third inning the Johnnie Blaze pitcher (Danny Sanchez) took one straight in the nose. He is a tough kid, he actually got up and walked off the field. But for safety's sake he was transported to the hospital and went through a battery of tests. He has a badly broken nose, his septum is crushed, and he may have to have some additional surgery to repair the septum after the swelling goes down. Interestingly, after the Sanchez injury, most of the upper level pitchers started wearing head gear. Also I noticed that every time a home run was struck, that bat was tested. I was talking with John Daniels, the sponsor of Long Haul , he told me that he has ordered several of the head gear that his pitchers were wearing, and I might add that Long Haul's pitchers were both wearing the head gear prior to the Sanchez injury.
April 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Tim Millet, a legendary hitter
just turned 50 this year.
He's playing with MTC 50's and was there
hitting bombs in Turlock this weekend.
We spoke about the new HR's as outs rule
and the PPR and he and I both agreed
this combination with 1.2 bats and decent balls is asking for the most serious of injuries.
"Who thought this was a good idea?", we mocked, meaning how ignorant to think
that big guys won't hit the middle
when you take away the HR.

We told you, SSUSA, lots of us
this is not a good idea.
Anyone who plays and gets our game
would know this could never work.

It's not too late to do the right thing
and save more guys from getting hurt
this year and put the fun back in that 26 teams enjoyed in Phoenix, last year.

Go back to the standards from last year
where the pitchers/infielders will be markedly safer and the real
fun of our game
can be experienced and enjoyed.
April 22, 2009
RedEye
Men's 60
92 posts
TYJA Sports has a new mask called the Shield, for $48
April 22, 2009
Robo2
223 posts
I agree that the HR rule changes causes injuries. There is absolutely no reason whay to limit HR (except maybe in the last inning). the game would move quicker; the best teams would advance quicker; players would be happier and more egar to spend $ to travel; and, the big hitters would now stay away from the middle without being forced to change their swing.

Can someone provide a negative to what I just mentioned? I have never heard any arguement to this.
April 22, 2009
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
I can remember playing against Steele's Sports and one of their players telling me to just serve it up or someone might get hurt( me the pitcher ). I told him that if he wanted to hit the middle to take his best shot....I actually used some terrible lanquage. All I am saying is that if the equipment was a little more realistic then we wouldn't have homerun contests for games and the game would be a little safer.
April 22, 2009
Wick
12 posts
Well, finally some lucid discussions on the home run and PPR. The only reason that pitchers are looking for masks is that the rules created by Senior Softball have put them at considerable risk. How ironic.
April 22, 2009
tattooball
620 posts
Not to sart anything and Joe I don't want or need a battle.

This past weekend lvssa held a tourny with homeruns as singles and .47/500lb balls.
The result was many ptichers got hit.

So the theroy of good bats, good balls and no DBO's on balls over the fence dosen't hold water.

So it really isn't the bats or the balls, it is the players that hit the ball. Good hitters can hit without hitting the middle.
April 22, 2009
ROOSTER10
Men's 60
91 posts
We should find a pitching machine and place it on the mound for both sides!
Has it come down to wearing armour to play the game ?The PPR rule is a joke and you can believe that fewer people will want to pitch!!
April 22, 2009
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
It is ridiculus to ask all players to avoid the middle....The answer is .....drumroll......equipment that meets some realistic standard!!!
April 22, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
This is where we have a disconnect
Kevin.
Making HR's outs directly contributes
to the middle and short fielders
getting more and hotter balls.
I have not talked with one player
who disagrees with me.
I speak and play with Senior Ball players nearly every weekend and we represent the majority of players.

SSUSA needs to quit being petty, arbitrary, stop worrying that changing their minds
will make them look bad,
show some caring and character
and return us the game we love to play.
April 22, 2009
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
The homerun rules do not make it any safer one way or the other....singles or outs make no difference. The equipment is too live!!!
April 22, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Loud and repetitive doesn't create
numbers leading to a majority opinion.
I have not found one player
who thinks making HR's outs
doesn't endanger pitchers and short fielders dramatically.
With all due respect, Kevin,
only one of us can be right about this
aspect of our game.
April 22, 2009
Wick
12 posts
The pitching machine, no matter how silly it sounds. . . is maybe the way to go. There are obvious hard asses on both sides of the issues, but to expect pitchers to wear armor is a stupid also.

How about changing the height allowed to 14-15 feet so pitchers actually have a chance to run back? I mean, the ball still has to come down, and from what I saw in Mesquite, it's certainly not going to change the number of balls crushed by the batters.

And I do agree with Mr. Manassas that the bats we are using are too hot. We could easily still play with 98 mph bats and still crush it.
April 22, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Trumpball:
Not sure if you were in Las Vegas this weekend, but I played 7 games in the 55 Major division, with 4 teams full of some of the biggest hitters in this division. With LVSSA's excellent rules, there were no more BUT no less balls hit up the middle. It is not accurate to say more pitchers got hit.

My experience this year, like every year, is that balls are hit where they are pitched, PPR or not. Good hitters hit where the ball is pitched and away from fielders, INCLUDING to the center of the field. Occasionally, a mistake is hit directly at the pitcher. As Mr. Manasas says, closing the middle is not an option, unless we want to switch to Over-the-Line. I'm neutral on the bat/ball question because a DeBeer 212 hit with a single wall bat CAN result in serious injury. Risk of injury from a batted ball is always present in this game. Scariest plays in Vegas were bad hops that almost took infielders heads off. It's been said many times, protective equipment, not rules or penalties, protect pitchers and all players. There is plenty of equipment available to pitchers that does not unduly restrict mobility. Think baseball catchers.
Bottom line, the rules used by LVSSA are the most reasonable, player-oriented versions and should be adopted/restored in SSUSA. The DBO homerun rule and PPR do not do what they are alleged to do, so get rid of them. Leave them in place, and the controversy continues. Personally, I prefer the squabble-free weekend I just had in Vegas.
JMHO;
Don Newhard
April 22, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Wick:
There was a time when football players wore leather helmets with no face guards and thought suggestions to the contrary were stupid. After a death, all professional base coaches are now requred to wear helmets. Pitchers can and should wear whatever they choose to protect themselves. This is the variable that will actually protect. I'd be ok with a 98 MPH bat, and as a pitcher I always like to go as high as possible. Those changes probably won't make that much difference.
April 22, 2009
JamesLG
303 posts

Guys:

Many of the same guys whoare hitting the middle now have been doing it there entire career and that is not the problem. Take a look at the players on the teams now? They are big, strong and work at this game. Many of the best power hitters ever to play slow-pitch are playing this game now. The new rules have forced them to keep it in the ball park so where do they hit? Anybody who thinks it is all about senior bats should go watch even a "C" tourmament for the young guys. The infields are harder and the game is just faster than it was in the 70's and 80's. We cannot keep blaming guys for hitting the ball hard.
I think we have discussed these points many times these last few months but what good does it do?
James
April 22, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1279 posts
Check out the Police Softball message board. Even youngsters are considering masks...............

http://policesoftball.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2477
April 22, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Don,
James' point needs to be emphasized.
When you make HR's out
big guys hit down and hard.
Who do you think was hitting those
grounders that were bad hopping
and nearly taking
infielders heads off.
The decision to make HR's outs
has led to directly to Bill Ruth's injury ironically enough
and to the injury of many others
before the year is out.
And I agree with you that
SSUSA should correct their
mistake.
April 23, 2009
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
The thread started with a discussion of pitcher masks. Yeah, I am wearing one now. In a tourney last weekend, one opposing pitcher donned a mask. He sheepishly told me he had the mask for a couple of years, but wasn't wearing it until he saw me wearing it. I'm wearing it consistently because my eyes are bad, but maybe I'll continue when my eyes improve.

Einstein continues to believe all players agree with him that when you make home runs outs that hitters will then go up the middle. I'm telling him that isn't true. I have actually never talked to anyone who DOES agree with him. My guess is that with his strong personality he THINKS guys agree with him because it is easier to nod than to argue or be belittled as an idiot.

He's right that home runs should not be outs (a foolish rule), but wrong that helpless sluggers, once deprived of the over-the-fence homer, have no option but to hit up the middle. My team's long ball hitters have adopted very nicely without going middle.

I agree with Mr. Manassas that the hot bats and balls have made the game more dangerous, and to the extent it becomes a home run derby, less interesting for the average player.
April 23, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
2 things come first to mind.
I know I'm hitting a nerve when the big
anonymous guns come out to do battle.
You know, those
guys/gals/little leaguers
who have all the right to post but don't/won't/can't/
shouldn't/ let us know who they are and aren't.
Don't you just love 'em?
8O per cent of those who post on this website sign in as who they are.
I think that's a majority, don't you?

Dave Dowell, is that you?
Terry, perhaps?
Some loyal friend of Kevin's?
Who knows.

Let's get back to it.
Most to all of the players
I play with and talk with
believe that HR's as outs
and the stupid PPR rule
will not only not make the game safer
for pitchers and short infielders
but actually make it "more" dangerous
and significantly less fun.
That would represent a majority
of those who actually play our game.

To what end, you might ask
and who might this benefit and please
you also might ask.
Good questions with real answers
when you connect the dots and follow
the money trail.

Let's try to stay on the subject.
The PPR and HRs as outs
ironically have led to the owner
and most influential member
of SSUSA being hurt badly by
a line drive.
God bless Bill and his speedy recovery
but this is something like
what brother Malcolm meaning when he said
"the chickens are coming home to roost".
Some would call it a sign or a heads up
to SSUSA to get it together,
show some caring and character
and return us to the players standards
a la LVSSA.

You can fool some of the people
all of the time.
All of the people some of the time
but not all of the people
all of the time.




April 23, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1279 posts
Do you know the facts of Bill Ruth's incident? Who was at bat? Was it a big home run hitter, or a little guy like you? How many homeruns had been hit? Did the batting team have any left? Do you know for a fact that the home run rule and PPR "ironically have led to the owner
and most influential member
of SSUSA being hurt badly by
a line drive."?
Or could it have happened to any one of us at any time regardless of the rules?
April 23, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Read my lips, Dave.
The HR's as outs rule
and the PPR not only do not protect
the pitcher the way more
but in fact, Dave,
endanger the pitcher and short fielders
more.
This is the majority opinion
of most to all of the senior softball players I have asked and talked to.
Now,
this is a fact and I/we got it right
and SSUSA has it wrong
or I and all those I play with and have talked with have it wrong
and SSUSA is right.
Which is it, Dave
and
more importantly what to most of the members of the senior softball community think?
Lastly,
discussing it openly
and frankly and honestly
can only help us move toward
meaningful resolution.
If you want to talk with me about it
or any other thing that might be bothering you, Dave,
you have my email address
and drop me a line.


April 23, 2009
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
The bottom line is that the equipment is too live!!! I like to hit the ball far as well as anybody and I like to see just how far some people can pound it but we can do that in a homerun contest not a game. I do not want the homerun to be taken out of the game just make it a little safer.
April 23, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joey, you getting an attitude again? :(
April 23, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's nice to know there's something
almost all of agree on that is that
Dirty Gary Sommers from Ohio
is not worth talking or responding to.
I have emailed him numerous times
yet he refuses to answer or ask
or be accountable for his droppings.
He's a waste of a good man's time.
April 23, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
What good man might that be?

Care to share with everyone the contents of the emails you sent me? Yea, I didn't think so.
April 23, 2009
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
This is suppose to be a discussion, not a slam session.
April 23, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Exactly. "einstein", stop being so sarcastic and negative.
April 23, 2009
JamesLG
303 posts

One point I have never heard brought up is ball players are a lot like prize fighters. The last thing a fighter loses is his punching power. The last thing a ball player loses is bat speed. If making the game safer is the goal we should do everything possible to keep balls from being hit back at the pitcher or make it impossible for a pitcher to get hit. I think now is the time for some folks to dig deep and re-think these new rules or modify them so they actually do some good. I saw Bill Ruth Sunday and felt terrible for him so being proactive is the only way to think on this one.
Thanks:

James
April 23, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1279 posts
Joey,
You did not answer my questions. You have no idea of the circumstances of the incident. And if anyone wants to read the email you sent me today, I will be glad to share it.
April 23, 2009
JJ 6
1 posts
The bats being too hot for human reflexes is the main problem. I also believe pitching to the mat takes away the corners...the probability of a ball coming back up the middle that has been pitched straight down the middle is much higher. It's definitely overkill putting these Senior bats in the hands of the 40's.

I've worn a helmet or mask for ten years now...I'm not ten years smarter than the rest of you, I was just seriously injured ten years sooner.

I enjoy the rush of hitting a ball over the fences as much as the next guy but there need to be sacrifices in equipment performance before someone is killed and the lawsuit puts us all out of being able to participate in this game we all love.
April 23, 2009
Wick
12 posts
Ok, I think the only reasonable thing to do to protect pitchers is to raise the height limitation from 12 feet to 14 feet. Before you start whining about it think about the following:

1. The pitcher has more time to move back and would be able create more distance between the the batter and the pitcher.

2. Since pitchers throw at different levels anyway, not all pitches would be 14 feet. So all of the whiners with the death grip on the hot bats and who always need it pitched low would still be able to find a pitch to hit.

2. As in unlimited pitching, the ball still has to come down sooner or later. Good hitters still crush it.
April 24, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We at NCSSA
have heard all these discussions
and concerns before but the facts
don't match the hysteria.
Senior Softball players are NOT
being hurt at a higher rate than at any time in their history,
before, during and after 1.2 ultra 2's.
There is a small group of people wittingly
and unwittingly driving the herd
toward the valley they have all bought real estate in.
We at NCSSA
have 1.2 bats and good balls
(except once in a great while)
HR's as singles and we adjust.
Hitters stay away from the pitcher
and infielders for the most part
back up and don't try to block the ball.

The move to make HR's outs is/has been done to force the issue of safety
to serve other ends, guys.
We're all being had by TD's and their friends to change our game to checkers
because it's too dangerous for us
old men.
It's not only me it our entire association.
That's 2000 registrants who say
balderdash and poppycock
to this ignorant self seeking juggernaut
to change our game so dramatically
and take it away from us.

Injuries will always occur
and it's sad when they do
but changing the game
is not called for.

Ask questions, connect the dots
and follow the money.
April 24, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DBAX and I were catching an edge
as anyone might tell but took it off line
and settled our differences
like real men.
Way to go, Dave.

I think a new ball might be an answer
in SS.
One that goes and has elasticity
(Stoneman taught me that) to disperse
the force of an impact.
Kevin or whomever is in the ball
business, good luck
but let's keep playing our game
till then.
No HR's as outs and get rid of the PPR.
If guys wanna wear masks, great.
Stay off the pitcher like Dbax
and Kevin have suggested they(good hitters) could/would do
and let's play some senior ball.
April 24, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"catching an edge"??????

Is that wild, white-haired left coast talk?

Glad you emailed with him. Did you use all the filthy language you did numerous times to me?
April 24, 2009
WOW
197 posts
All this talk about PPR, Hot bats, Hot balls, who hit the ball, was he a big guy?, Young guy, big hitter, Monster Major player yadayadayadayada. The proof is out there. No PPR is needed, allow home runs, ALLOW ALL NEW EQUIPMENT BUT protect the pitcher BEFORE SOMEONE GETS KILLED. USE A SCREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 99% of these discussions go away. The only time the screen gets in the way is WHEN IT IS SUPPOSED TO.
April 24, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I wonder how much of this conversation we would be having if we could only use wood bats. Just a thought.I also wonder how many would still play this game they love.
April 25, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Butch,
With all due respect
the argument is not about the bat or
the ball.
It's the bat/ball combo.
Wooden bats would be fine with 47 or 50 core high compression balls.
The bat/ball combo is
ESSENTIAL to the fundamental
experience of playing softball
competitively.
It has ALWAYS been.
You must be able to hit the ball
hard/fast/far when struck well
or the experience simply isn't worth it.

There's people pushing for/against bats.
There's people pushing for/against balls.
Yet, no one is pushing for the bat/ball combo which must remain fun or
they'll be no game.

Ever since Babe Ruth
the game, our game has been about
hitting farther, longer and
more balls.
Pro's use wooden bats but
the balls are hot and can be dialed up
at will.

We're being pushed around
and led around by our noses
by some of those who administrate
tournaments
and sell us their wares.
They will destroy or at best take away
the game we have ALWAYS loved to play
since we were kids using tennis balls
or spalding high bouncers.
And until we say no
and they get it
our game, our fun, our investement
are all going to be in jeopardy.
April 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think masks would be OK.
Screens, too but what is happening is
the basic bat/ball combo necessary
to enjoy our game is not being upheld.
We're sliding from hitting balls 500 feet
to not being able to get it over
a 300 foot fence not matter what you swing.
This, guys, is dangerous and real.
Safety, money, arrogance and administrative needs
have formed a 4 Horseman of
the Flock of Flips
to take away a game we have and can enjoy till the real 4 Horsemen arrive.
(What? They're already here?)

We need a lively bat/ball combo
or softball won't be played by any of the guys I play with/against.
Any smart guys who thought they could make a killing with the bats/balls
going south have and will have
shot themselves in the butts
because guys won't pay to play
rec/pillow ball so they're wives
can tell 'em how great they are.

The fundamental allowable standard
for bat/ball combo is in grave danger
from all the interests and ignorance
moving about and at least,
we've all been warned.
April 26, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
IMHO I have not got the impression from the discussion on this board that anyone is pushing for a "mush" bat/ball combination. But what is the need to have a combination that can be hit 500'. The fences are typically close to 300'. As long as the historical home run hitters can hit (not mis-hit) the combo in excess of 300', why does it need to be hotter. There appears to be a considerable number of players that were willing to play the game they love without ever hitting the ball over the fence. Suddenly, players turn 50 and think they should start hitting homeruns. Home runs, alone, in my opinion do not make the game fun. A combination of good hitting, good defense, good teammates and general comradiere are the reasons many players continue to play.

I have not hit the 52 cor 265 compression ball. From those that I have talked to(whose opinion I trust) that have hit the ball say that it will go long and far when hit. They did not alter their swings to hit it. If you miss hit the ball it will not go. This is the way it should be. As far as hitting a ball thru a hole, a "mush" ball can be hit thru a hole without being caught, if the hole is hit. Hitting a ball 2-3 feet from a defender with the new combo may get caught but 2-3 feet away is not what I consider to be the hole.

If something is not done with the bat/ball combo, I believe the associations will have no choice but to implement more safety rules. The law suits will in the end force the issue. Softball does have inherent risks but they normally have been confined to bad bounces and not balls that are hit faster than the resonse time.

The problem I do foresee is if a change is made to the ball, i.e., going to 52 cor, 265 compression, (very similar to the old T-4000) there would need to be a rule put in place to limit the bats. Seniors are a very innovative group. If the ball is changed someone will find the bat that hits that particular ball the best and we again get to have these same discussions.

Just my opinion. I am not trying to speak for any majority.
April 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I'm suspicious of anonymous guys
who seem super informed on key issues
and always seem to know what's going on
and/or where our sport is headed.
I trust more talking with a real human being don't you?
I'd love to know who 25 is.
I have my ideas its someone we all have met before.

The language and arguments he/she makes
(Nancy, is that you?)
are careful and precise and speak to the movement toward a ball that has been developing for a couple of years
now and will seemingly solve
all our problems.

Not so fast.

If only legendary hitters could hit homeruns?
Where does that come from?
Who's a legendary hitter and who's speaking with/for them?

It's our game, whoever you are
and we like it.
26 teams in Phoenix last year
remember.

I'm sorry that all our issues
don't/won't get wrapped up neatly
in changing to a 52 core 275 ball
that's taken greatly in time and cost
to develop
but they won't.
It slows down the game too much.
Don't kill the messenger
because the battle plan doesn't work
that well.

Good bat/ball combo
or our game will change so dramatically
it won't be our game anymore.
It won't be fun or enough to invest in.
(Lawn bowling, here we come.)
Wake up, guys, and smell the coffee
before it's changed to tea.

April 26, 2009
tattooball
620 posts
Joe,
As I said no I don't agree with many of the rules and I say just that when asked. No rule has ever been changed because I didn't like it.

Maybe there is a way that softball can go back to what it was many years ago. But something has to change. What that is, ball?,bat?

It seems to me that someone like yourself that has so much to say about this would have tested ball and bat combinations and had some real suggestions to offer. Stoney has been hitting the new ball for some time, he may think it is the way to go but you would have to ask him. I designed it for the ASA and other younger associations.

Maybe this ball or a similar one is the answer to no homerun rules and 7 inning games. Actions speak louder than words.
April 26, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
Did not pretend to be super informed. Offered an opinion based on typical actions that happen after several injuries that are followed by court cases. There is no reason to have a bat/ball combo that would travel 500'. The fences are generally 300'.

Why should one expect to hit the ball farther at 50 years old then when in their prime? Why is the game suddenly no fun if you can not hit a home run? Many players have play for many years and have not hit a ball out of the park and they had fun playing.

You have no idea who I am. I will state that I have no business interest in any type of equipment used in softball. I am not advocating the 52 cor ball but I use that as an example that technology exists to have a safer game that apparently does not effect the integrity of the game.(At least to the people that I talked with that have hit this type of ball)

I would rather change to a different bat/ball combo and potentially eliminate the DBO and HR as outs. It would be nice to actually play seven innings.

Please explain how changing the bat/ball combo would slow down the game.
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I don't see the value in talking
with a character, as in a play.
I prefer talking with a person.
I don't think you want to let us know
who you are.
That means a lot to us,
the majority of senior players.
The majority of senior players
want to play with a good bat/ball combo
of this, there is no doubt.
So, why are we being pushed to
accept a lesser one when it's not necessary or being mandated by us
those who play, suffer and continue
to invest in senior ball.

Those who know and play "our game"
understand me, what I'm saying
and what I mean.
It's this juggernaut movement
to change us and our game
that is truly out of touch.
Powerful and full of money
but out of touch with us
and the soul of our game.
April 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
hey joe,as i'm reading this thread,you have not offered any viable solutions except lets hit a hot bat and hot ball.well for the safety of the players that doesn't seem to be a good solution.ranting about posters who don't like having thier personal info spread all over the internet is not a solution.why don't we all try and find something that will be safe and be able to still play the game we all love.i have hit the ball that someone mentions above and i think it could be an answer to some of the problems we are having.the big boys will still be able to hit thier hr's and us base hitters can hit our gaps.
also would you please quit with the ncssa as they are nothing but a little podunk assoc with a bunch of ego maniacs(and yes i've played in thier tourney's).and if not when is thier worlds.
April 27, 2009
WOW
197 posts
Hey Joe, I'd like to see what weinee league or assn. Mad Dog plays in. He certainly doesn't know our 112 team 2000 member assn. very well does he.
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Robert,
I have been offering solutions all along
and I didn't create them.
Good bat/ball combo is essential to the game we know, love, suffer, play and enjoy, Robert.
If there's a better ball, it needs to both lively and safer.
Till then, cha-ching,
it's money talkin'.

Don't kill the messenger, Rob,
I just stumbled into their kitchen
started asking questions and figured
a couple of things out.

We just finished a normal NCSSA event
in Concord this weekend.
6 teams, Five Spot @ 50 MAJOR PLUS,
Old A's and MTC @ 60 major plus,
ODB, my guys, at 55 Major,
Wilson Trophy, a 50's Major team
and J and U Entertainment
a 50's AAA to Major team
and we had a blast.
Every game we played was decided in the last inning.
And we had such a great time-
I didn't want to go home.

We used Worth Super Blue Dot balls
hit the crap out of the ball
and hear this Rob,
not one guy got hurt from a batted ball.
Hard to believe, eh?
Not for those of us who really play
our game.
HR's as singles, no PPR, 1.2 bats
and equalizer at 1 for HRs.

Anybody telling you we can't have fun
and play our game without killing people
irresponsibly is trying to sell you
something.

The game without a good bat/ball combo
is not worth playing and these guys
will run the game right out of us
as we stand around wait and watch them
do it.
April 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

You reponded to my comments now me to you. I dont need a biography or short story just Simple answers as we are not all Einsteins:)1. Why must we hit a ball 500'.2. Why has NorCal not started an organization all over U.S. because of the sounds of it we other players that dont live in Ca. are greatly being cheated out of a great game of softball.3. The great 26 team tourney you are talking about was in Major Division I believe try that in the Major
Plus I dont care what rules you have you will have 5 or 6. I personally know
Player25 and he is as much if not more real than you or I. Joe I have no axe to grind one way or the other but I believe you would NOT say this, "Put my bat/ball combination in effect and I will personally pay for any and all damages suffered by anyone getting hit by a batted ball and that includes any suffering and expenses the family may incur".
Just my thoughts.
Butch Drake
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What's wrong with 400 feet, Butch
or 350 for that matter and what about the singles guys who need more pace to get a ball by an infielder or through a hole.
With all respect, you guys are all singing the same tunes.
We love our game, 26 teams in Phoenix,
and in California and all senior softball guys have to do is say is "NO"
and these association will have to give us what we want and need.
Insurance is the same no matter what bats are used.
There's NO evidence that more guys are getting hurt than 10 years ago.
We're being driven by fear and herded like cattle to an end
that doesn't really exist.
Softball should and will always be dangerous until a ball is made that is both lively and safe.
Sorry, Butch.
We disagree and there are a ton of us.

April 27, 2009
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
I admit I'm ignorant about other associations than NCSSA and SSUSA, since I haven't traveled beyond St. George to play. Mad dog says NCSSA is a small association. WOW correctly points to the 112 teams and the 2000+ players. NCSSA also has 44 tournaments a year, so some weekends there are more than one tournament to easily drive to. How does this compare with other associations, particularly in Texas or the South?
April 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

Yes we agree to disagree as gentlemen which is the way it is suppose to be. How many more runs do you get for hitting a 350 ft homerun verses a 301 ft homerun? You did not answer any of my questions. I was in the insurance business and your claim is wrong its like saying cost of auto insurance is the same for 1974 Pinto and a 2009 Navigater.Insurance costs are based on risk.If they tone down the exposure to risk the cost will also come down. I must have missed something because I thought that all the hoopla about homeruns as outs instead of singles more people were going to get hurt but you just stated that there was no evidence that more people were getting hurt than 10 years ago. Do you believe that you would have had 26 teams in Major Plus with your rules?? If not then your point is mute because with the new rules you are still going to have 20 plus teams in the Major, AAA and AA. Joe I can and will play by what ever rules they give us and believe that if I could not or would not play by these rules I would have 2 choices either quit playing or come up off my own money and start a new organization.
Joe we dont all agree on what should or should not be changed but like you said I know a lot of guys that disagree with your side and you will see that during the year with particapation in ss/usa tourneys. I think you will see more teams paticipate than stay home. People can say what ever they want but if the ton of you belive that then you will stay home and not play ss/usa.
Hell I almost wrote a biography :)
Butch
April 27, 2009
dj
32 posts
use a screen, problem solved,
dj
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're all right.
We don't have to agree but I have answered all your questions and more
if you're listening.
Insurance is not anymore if you use
1.2 bats or not at our tournaments.
I don't know what tournaments you're talking about.
But I think you miss my point.
It's not the distance in feet.
It's being rewarded for hitting the damn thing right.
I'm 5'11" and 235 lbs.
I don't have long arms or a strong upper body but when I do everything right I can hit the shit out of the ball and it motivates me to learn,
try and do it again.
DeMarini and Ken Van Bogaert
have fabulous videos (Bog's are better)
about hitting.
He's got a guy on one of his early videos, Josh somebody, at 5'10" and 160 lbs hitting the crap out of the ball
because of his aggressiveness and mechanics.
There's nothing wrong and everything right with this phenomenon and its excitement and I fear and feel
only a few guys are steering us away
from the intrinsic fun and enjoyment
of hitting a ball hard and well
even as we get older.
The last thing to go,
George Foreman said
was the punch and it's the same with us.
You should see the Crusher, a 70 year old guy from Washington hit the crap out of the ball on Bogie's new video
and he couldn't get anywhere near doing it with the bat/ball combo
they're trying to foist on us, today.
This is wrong to me, Butch
and lots of us don't like it one bit.
April 27, 2009
JamesLG
303 posts

Butch:

You hit the key point on the nose. If teams don't like the rules they will not pay to go to the tournaments. Participation or lack of will send the loudest message of all. When I first started playing senior ball 6 years ago I think we had hotter softballs and the U2 but you rarely seen balls hit at or close to the pitcher. I asked my friend who did pitch why this was and he said it was an un-written rule to stay away from the box. Now you see it at least a couple times a game. Hitting middle is a part of the senior game now so pitcher better be on there "A" game or it could cost them.
Thanks:
James
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Last thing Butch.
I don't know if it's any more caring/passionate to go along with the group when something is wrong
or to stand up and say "Hell, No."
But I know it's no less...
See you in Vegas in the fall
or until/unless
SSUSA comes to its senses.
April 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

Will see you in Vegas and next time you get back to Indiana let me know and we can meet at Columbus or Seymour and hit a few balls.
April 27, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
James the LVSSA must really stink not one 50 team in any age division showed up to play that will teach LVSSA to have the hottest ball 47/525, 1.2 bats and unlimited balls over the fence and no PPR. LVSSA is hearing everyone loud and clear my guess is so is SSUSA.
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Joe,
I never knew LVSSA had a spring tournament, truly.
We have always gone to the one
in the fall.
I think a lot of guys didn't know
and it wasn't emphasized enough
for it to register deep in the senior softball psyche like
SSUSA and LVSSA in October.
This was the first year of the NEW RULES
and the contrast between associations
that will adopt them and those that won't hasn't been exercised enough yet.
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And Joe,
we have our own association in NorCal
that features the players' rules
and had tournaments the same weekend
as LVSSA.
Hang in there, Joe.
NorCal who has defined itself
separate and independent of SSUSA's new rules is not only alive and well
it's getting more competitive to even get in our tournaments because we have
SO MUCH FUN.
C'mon down, anytime, Joe
and check us out.
You'll have a blast.
April 27, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Joe it was my understanding that LVSSA has a fairly deep mailing list at their disposal developed from the October event along with a static but usable website. They put out their schedule right after the summit in late January. I get the fact that in past years there have been issues. If all the above is true and they exercised the mailing list and email list then the lack of attendance specifically in the 50's is puzzling especially I think to the folks running the event. If they took the above steps not sure what more than could have done. It's a great fit scheduling wise about a month after the SSUSA spring event and a month before Reno. Maybe they will do lights out business in October.
April 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,
I think it is the economy but we came out there a few years ago in the spring and there were just a few teams in the 50's so I dont believe it is the balls the bats the homeruns as it is more teams now have to pick and choose the tourneys that are more cost effective to them. We are coming back this fall and we are hoping the tourney is going to be run like a National tourney not like it was the last time we came. I talked about how great a tourney it was for years finally got a few teams to show up and it was a mess, not only our fields but several fields. Here is hoping for a good run tourney this fall.
Butch
April 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Joe,
I think as I have said before
that the winter keeps a lot of teams
from being ready enough for a spring tournament in Vegas.
We're just now beginning to get into tournament shape and we started months ago.
The last I played in Vegas with you
and George and the Mob we had a blast.
I played 14 games and it hit 100 degrees
every day and we barely lost the tournament by one run in the last inning
of the last game.
They used very good hitting balls.
It was those microcell ones
I hear they're not making anymore.
I thought they had some promise.
They still flew in 100 degrees.
The officiating was good, too.
In general, we had a great time
in a terrific run tournament in Vegas
last fall.
I'm looking forward to this year's fall
LVSSA already.
April 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
wow,omar,if you had read my post you would have seen i've played ncssa before.if it were a big assoc it would have worlds and such,they don't.now over here yes we don't have as many tourney's(senior) so i play a lot of flat belly still.but i guess that doesn't count in your opinions,since we have to use asa,usssa bats and such(and do play an occ outlaw tourney and league).oh i also know joe(played with and against him).
still think that with senior bats a 44-375 is good enough.like i said i've hit the 52-275 and it will suffice for senior bats,hr hitters will still get thier hr's and singles hitters can still hit the ball threw the holes(besides why should they be going for hr's when they never did).hey whats wrong with a little D, it doesn't have to be a constant hr derby.
April 27, 2009
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
Joe, thanks, but it is not me wordsmithing. I have lots of opinions, but I am right here; I am just sort of worn out on this one and just want to have softball be a game enjoyed without too much red tape. I am sorry to hear about Bill Ruth, and there was just a softball tragedy here in Indiana. I believe the kid was 24 sliding into home when a ball hit him in the head and clocked him for life. I do have to admit that the thought crossed my mind about what the next "preventative" measure was that might be taken. I was hit pretty well doing bases about 10 years ago. It was a right hander that hit the right side, and I could see the ball, but I could not get away from it, and I believe that it would have broken my pelvic bone if I had not turned to it at the last moment. I had the worst bruise that I had ever seen, but I never thought someone should change the equipment because of an accident. I won't play coed anymore because of the young boys hitting are much better than my reflexes could serve me in fielding.

I just keep going over in my head how I know more people who have died on their way to a tournament than I have that died at one. I have known of more people who died from a heart attack at a tournament than from a batted ball. What is the answer? I have thoughts, but I truly do not have the answer.
April 28, 2009
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
mad dog, you misread me. I'm not a supporter of the hot bats allowed by NCSSA. And I don't know what playing with the younger guys has to do with counting as a senior association. But I am puzzled about what makes a healthy association if it isn't half a hundred tournaments and 2000+ players. Back to my question: how does this compare to other associations around the continent. Is it only hosting a world championship that defines an active, large association?
April 28, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
omar,100 teams does not make a assoc superior to other's,its quality that does it not numbers.you are telling me there are 2000 players that would put approx 20 players per team ??? i think that number is slightly inflated(number of players).yes they do have a lot of tourney's and i did play in a bunch in the 3 yrs i was there,before i retired and moved.i'm just tired of all the hype about something that is only a local assoc.if joe and the other's that hype it say it's so good why not go national with it.by the way hitting 47 cor balls = not good for senior bats,or most all composite bats for that matter.i broke 2 bats in our outlaw league last(both asa ones)hitting 47's.
i still think we can use our bats just use the 52-275 ball for the safety sake.
my take on saying that i play with the kids is that i'm still getting to play all lot,ok thats all.

good luck for your season.i might even know ya if your over 55.
April 28, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Player numbers;
Posted on the NCSSA site:
There are 1755 players on the 106 registered teams.
April 28, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
There are 4 teams from OR and 2 from NV that come to the events NCSSA puts on. That's about as "national" as it gets. Those teams come fairly often considering distance.
Most tournaments for cities listed are within one week, either way, each year and usually the same TD puts it on. Keeps the $$ there. some are mush better than others as far as balance and numbers. WOW puts on a good one, always has.
April 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Dog,
1755 after the add ons that are allowed
is closer to 1800 and I think I said 2000.
I sit corrected.
106 teams and 1800 players have a blast
in NorCal just like we did this weekend
in Concord, Ca.
Can't remember having a better time.
1.2 bats/Worth Blue dots, HR equalizer at 1, HR's as outs and no PPR.
We were ripping the ball all over the fields and no one got hurt.
Very satisfying way to play softball
and we're not giving it up
to interest conflicted TD's or manufacturers or insurance companies or hustlers trying to corner our market.


April 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Come to think of it,
NCSSA allows 2 add-ons to their roster
for any tournament.
That math would be 106 times 2 or
212 plus the 1755 would bring it
a gnat's tooth less than a ton.
What a minute.
2 add ons per tournament times average
of 10 tournaments a year
is 20 add-ons per team per year.
That's a potential for 2000 more players.
(Somebody stop me)
That's 2000 and 1750 or potentially
speaking 3750 players involved
for the year.
That's a lot of toothpaste and mouthwash.
Maybe we should become our own collective and/or buying entity and get
great deals for ourselves.
Hmmmmmmmm.
April 28, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Joe,
You and I both know those being picked up are from other teams. You can't count the same players more than once. Their still at the 1755 plus or minus only a few.
April 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
For a man who has lived but one lifetime
you are very wise Tait-Helsing.
Actually I brought George from Arizona
up to play with us in Turlock
but you have to promise not to tell anyone.
Booooyaaaaah.
The Mavericks want to come up for a tournament.
Joe Lecak is thinking of it, too.
James from Washington is thinking of coming down with his boys for a tournament.
And I found out that our tournament
championship is Field of Dreams
is not limited to teams in California.
So any of you guys that want to come
and play great senior ball
check out the master schedule
at NCSSA website and c'mon down.
April 28, 2009
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Our local club has 306 members, seven sponsored teams in NCSSA, and three other teams that are not sponsored but have many club members. Not all the guys picked up for a tourney weekend are from other teams, but I would guess about half are. It's just easier to invite guys familiar with parks, rules, senior bats, and whose team is not going to that particular tourney. Nonetheless, there are still some capable players that for one reason or another are not on any team's roster...and are open for the occasional invite to a tourney.
April 28, 2009
WOW
197 posts
NCSSA doesn't need another fake "WORLDS". How many "WORLDS" does softball need before they mean NOTHING. We have a tourn every weekend 10 months a yr. and have our own "Championships". We don't need anything more. I would invite any team any where to compete in one of our tourn. and see the quality of ball played by our teams. I know you'd have a great time.
April 29, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
WOW, best post yet. Particularly your first two sentences.
April 29, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
WOW,
Most all names are just hype anyway. Just how often has their been teams from outside the states, other than Canada which attends many SSUSA & Huntsmen events? Other that them, I've only seen\played against two Japanese teams, years ago.
The NCSSA sponsored tourney which is usually now at the BLD but the down side id the U-2 for those who have the need, the entry cost, and you may get rushed in games to get done to accommodate another league, like has been done before. It's the whole enchilada, as they say, for the team members that attend.
April 29, 2009
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
The Manteca BLD park is centrally located, good weather, good seating, interesting field layouts. But a lot of criticism over last tournament there because everyone has to pay to enter the park, can't bring in own food or drink (other than water), and some fields were in shabby condition! Infields are all-weather, but some outfields had mudholes. Unacceptable for an expensive park. Also, not all scoreboards were working—also unacceptable when even wives and family have to pay to enter the park.
April 29, 2009
Fair123
4 posts
My personal belief is that anyone who pitches in Senior Softball should be well aware, up-front, as to what they're exposing themselves to. That, if they do intend to pitch, they need to supply 'themselves' with what ever equipment 'they' deem necessary to safely play the game (and survive w/o injury)! Just like outfielders tend to use larger ball gloves (better reach) than infielders (easier to get the ball out of the glove, quickly), 1st basemen often use different gloves than the rest of the infielders (hooked basket). The rules for equipment standards have been set and the vast majority of players, I've been exposed to, like everything 'except' the HR as an out concept. MY biggest issue is that if after 1, 2, 3, etc. team HRs, the rest (HRs) are going to be considered OUTs...some of us, including me, have to switch to a 'less potent' bat so we're not 'penalized' for accidently hitting the ball too far!! The popular consensus, by most 'true' ball-players (not jealous because they can't hit the ball out of the infield), is to make any 'extra' HRs singles!
May 1, 2009
WOW
197 posts
Obviously Joe [Einstein], is very passionate about the sport he loves, but with all do respect [and I do mean respect], I don't believe he speaks for ALL of us NCSSA members. He speaks for the guys he hangs with NOT all of the "regular" guys. Yes, most of the players I hang with are not from teams no. 1 through 10 on the "left side of the ncssa rankings list" but we also believe what we believe and not always agree with what Joe thinks. Joe, in trying to make your point, you may be giving our assn. a bad rap, so to all you guys out there in cyberspace, don't paint all NCSSA guys with the same brush......
May 1, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey WOW,
Great tournament a few ago
till we got rained out.
I speak for NCSSA regarding our independence and basic rules
regarding senior ball.
I'm proud of our association
and I've said we have HR's as singles,
equalizer after 1, no PPR,
5 run innings and almost always
good balls to use.
What about any of what I have just said
is untrue or not reflected by
the whole of NCSSA?
May 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Lan,
Send me your email so we can chat.
joerinaldi56@yahoo.com.
Say hi to Prime Time for me.
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