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Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts

Posted Discussion
June 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
General feelings/discussion/thoughts
Most of the conversations I had with players this weekend
were around the new rules for this year
and how unpopular they are.
Specifically, the PPR and HR's as outs.
I'm back inside now thanks to life, love
and Fran and Dave but still
asking the same questions and questioning
the same answers.
PPR makes no sense and can't be enforced
and doesn't deter balls hit to/through
the middle.
HR's as outs still takes away from the potential for fun in the senior game
and the caliber of ball issue
is still real and we've only won a battle with it and not the war, I feel.

So, seniors need to realize what we think, feel and want are right and correct for us and be willing to stand
and state what's in our best interest
and what we'll put up with and won't
going forward.
It's always the same stuff
over and over again for seniors.
Good bat/ball combo,
HR's as singles
and if safety ever really becomes
the issue instead of a lever
to making more money
then screens are better
than funky bad balls.




June 29, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
We played in the SPA qualifier this past weekend in Marietta, Ga with no ppr and hr rules in pool play of 2 then a walk. In the DE games the hr rule for us, 50 Platinum division, was 3 then a walk. Saturday evening we were rained out so they changed some rules to speed up play, 50 minute games, 7 runs per inning with NO open inning. The hr rule was 3 then an OUT. I don't know how that could speed up play since there was a 50 minute time limit (60 in finals). Very few of the shortened games went past he 5th inning. Our championship game went 6.
Back to the ppr.
In all of the 9 games that we played and all that I watched, not one pitcher was hit. There were some that the pitchers fielded or at least knocked down, but no injuries.
No need for the ppr. The responsibility should rest on the pitchers to wear shin guared, heart protector, mask, etc if they feel the need.
June 29, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Bruce, I second that emotion. Played in the 55 gold at Atlanta and our pitcher made numerous doubleplays...Of course he pitches for the comebackers. Don't need no stinkin PPR.

Joe as for the balls, they did not fly well...Tourney director had good balls, but high heat with extreme humidity and storing them in the sun kept them in the park for the most part. Playing 2nd and 3rd I could not keep my throwing hand dry. It was steel beach hot. LOL
June 29, 2009
Lefty
Men's 65
478 posts
Bruce and Lenny you to guys hit the balls, heat and safety on the button. With 92 degrees the balls were only 275 compression when new. The Dudley Heat balls were still better than the other spa tourneyments I've played in.
June 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bruce.
See you at SPA.
Hey Len.
Great comments.
We hit balls made by Trump(Anaconda)
in Las Vegas, last year,
when it was 100 every day
and there was no drop off noticeable
even when it was hot.
The balls deteriorating in the sun
is part of the ball devolution
that has been taking place
with and without direction
in the last couple of years.
As I said,
we have won a battle with SSUSA this year regarding the balls but the war
is far from over.
We need to hit good balls to enjoy
the game even if it brings on pitching screens.
I don't want screens, ideally,
but none of us want
bad/funky bouncing balls.
June 29, 2009
Rod Sweet
Men's 70
53 posts
It appears that those who are upset with the PPR rule and HR rule are (1) Home Run Hitters (2) Non pitchers. You could watch 50 games and not see one pitcher get hit but it only takes on swing and it could be over for the pitcher. Lets put that pride aside.
June 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
None of us want the pitcher getting hit
and I'm speaking as a pitcher and home run hitter.
It doesn't deter hitters from hitting the middle either in theory or practice
and making HR's outs
makes hitting the middle more likely
by all.
These are given opinions and represent
the great majority of those whom I have talked with and play with and against.

The decision to make HR's outs
which was changed this year
makes pitchers and short infielders
more vulnerable and as safety is
a key issue for seniors
is a mistake and should be changed
as soon as possible.
The PPR does nothing to offset it.
As I have said before
every day this decision is not reversed
adds more responsibility for its
effects to those who changed the rules
and they are and will be will held accountable by the senior softball community which I might add
is alive and well.
June 29, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Rod Sweet, I just want to be sure I understand your message. I am not a pitcher or a reg. home run hitter,(I play SS and THIRD BASE, NOW SECOND BASE) As it has been said several times , if not more on this board, the PPR does nothing to help the pitcher, period !If my pitcher or your pitcher gets hit, we have an out, but he still is hurt.I would never want to hurt a pitcher on any team, but I hit up the middle.I have done that since I first started playing ball.I hear on this board on occassions, that all players can hit the ball where they want to.If you have two strikes, you hit it where you can, and most of the time it's up the midle.I have played with some of the VERY BEST PITCHERS there are, and NONE OF THEM WANT THE PPR rule.Just my take and I am sure I will hear about this, but that's my take on the PPR rule.
June 29, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
Rod Sweet, while playing first I took a shot on the jaw from a hard ground ball. If we used your logic we would need an Infielder Protection Rule (IPR)!
It's part of the game, leave some responsibility to the pitcher and infeilders to wear the necessary equipment (face mask, shin guards, cup, etc.
June 29, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
BruceinGa,
Very well said, how's the game going? Good luck the rest of 2009.
June 30, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
Softball is good. I'm playing with Kayson's Grille when our 60's team isn't playing. This past weekend we beat some good teams, Rascal Ent, Pinehurst Pub, Currid Investments and beat up Kittrell's.
You very seldom hear of a team volunteering to move up. Kayson's moved from AAA to Major. I'm enjoying playing with them, they're a classy team!
I'll see everyone in Dalton.
June 30, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
I agree 100% with #6 and Bruce. Softball is good leave the game alone. The PPR the way it reads is a bomb just waiting to explored. No two Umps call it the same way and a lot of guessing is going on if Pitcher is in or out of box when hit.
Looking at details on Ron Sweet he's age 70+ and is for screen in front of Pitcher. I may change my mind when I get 70 (hope I get there) but at present I don't want a screen in middle of infield,lets play competitive softball!
June 30, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
I didn't mean we BEAT UP Kittrell's, I meant they were playing hurt and short players.
June 30, 2009
tattooball
620 posts
You cannot compare softballs at 100 in Az and softballs at 96 in Ga.

If the players in the west played more in the east and southeast they would probably quit playing.
June 30, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
The PPR rule is a bad rule because it does not help protect the pitcher, any more than a 55 mile per hour speed limit slows people down on the highway, it endangers him! It is an after the act rule. Over half or more of the umps in the games do not know how to call this correctly. The homerun rule is just plain stupid thinking because what you are doing is you're telling a man that has the power to hit the ball over 300 ft. to contain his swing to a low line drive up the middle, in the direction of the pitcher, which puts the pitcher in danger and puts the batter in a lose lose situation. Softball is now and has always been a hitters game. It is much safer for the pitcher if a batter hits the ball 300 ft. or more and gets a homerun, than it is to penalize him for doing so, thus forcing him to hit the middle. The batter is not up there to make an out for his team, his job is to get on and help his team win the game! Putting him in a lose lose situation like that helps no one!
June 30, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Greg.
Great comments and you're in the east
where guys fundamentally
feel the same way
about the game as we do, out west.
The game is supposed to be fun
and it's more fun and less dangerous
hitting good balls away from the pitcher
and infielders
just like we did last year
with HR's as singles in Phoenix and Reno
and Las Vegas.
It's just that simple
and anyone who's pushing us away from what we want, need and deserve
is trying to sell us something.

It was great seeing Bill Ruth
back and playing after his facial
injury from being hit by a batted ball
while pitching.
Bill and I and Marco are members of an elite club that is in more danger
with the present rules
than last year.
Consensus is that Tournaments stand
to make more money, more easily with the new rules but,
at what cost?
Safety and fun?
That's not a winning combination.


June 30, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
Trumpball . I can`t remember where I read it . But , there was a scientific analysis on how humidity affects ball distance . The outcome was that it had little if any effect on distance . I think I reead it on a site called B & N Softball . JB
June 30, 2009
tattooball
620 posts
Well if you believe that high heat and high humidity has the same effect on a ball that is in high heat low humidity then so be it. I invite you to come east in august and hit with us. I think you may be surprised.

Ask guys like Bruce in ga about heat and humidity and what it does to a softball.
June 30, 2009
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
I am a big believer in keeping things simple. I officiated both Special Olympics and 12U this week, and neither of these groups, which surely are less able than seniors even have this on their radar.

For the officiating problems the PPR causes (and in its many flavors, especially in leagues), I believe that the bad rule should be eliminated, protection should be recommended and not required (like the motorcycle helmet law in some states). I would much rather see the game played as intended. I do not want to see screens, batting tees or pitching machines (although there would not be arguments on balls and strikes), and the only other option that I personally would accept is having a pitcher pitch to his own team (I have a list of problems on that one too, but at least if the pitcher gets creamed, it is not some stranger that you might never see again because you know him/her).

There are discussions in NSA about a pitcher's circle and another set of rules. What is next, a 2nd baseman's protection rule?

OK, I am done, out here.

June 30, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Rod Sweet. I pitch in open leagues, over 30 outlaw league (You swing what you bring), over 55 and 60 when not playing the other positions. To me hitting middle has always been a part of the game. I sometimes throw a pitch a little outside hoping the batter will come middle for the double play. BTW...The pitching-box behind the rubber gives a good fielding pitcher time to pitch and break down for the batted ball. IMO, the pitcher can wear as much or little protection he / she desires. We don't need a PPR/DBO rule for the pitcher.

Nancy...Well said
June 30, 2009
outlaw
Men's 50
24 posts
I have been watching the boards for a number of months now regarding the HR and PPR rules. I don't think there needs to be a homerun rule at all, and although I don't like the PPR there may be a need for something? but what?
One thing I can't wrap my mind around is how the HR rule has anything to do with players hitting up the middle.
A number of great hitters I know that don't hit homers hit the middle consistently because of the way the defense is positioned, thats where the acreage is, if the SS or 2nd base shade the middle, then the hole is somewhere else.
Personaly, I have always been a middle hitter, not much HR power, occasional at best. I also pitch and when I began playing senior ball I didn't hit the middle respecting the age of the guys I was playing against. However, after a couple of months spent bobbing and weaving I had had enough of that crap and went back to my original swing and started going middle. I kinda agree, if you want to pitch, be prepared, either athletically or wear protection.
I have seen players purposely try to hit the pitcher and this is more common than some think, maybe more so with the younger guys. Just listen at the tournaments, complaints about pitching too high, too low, too fast.....if a pitcher gets them a little off their game...we'll get this guy....geez, got carried away, just some thoughts, Thanks
June 30, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
MadSci Network: Physics Query:
Trumpball

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: How do temp, press, humidity affect the distance traveled by golf balls?
Date: Fri Jun 30 16:05:12 2000
Posted By: Tom Cull, Staff, Clinical Sciences MR Division, Marconi Medical Systems
Area of science: Physics
ID: 961595006.Ph
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:

There are a handful of answers on the MadSci Network that deal with the effects of wind, humidity, and pressure with baseballs and airplanes, but not too much on golfballs. Here are 3 such responses I found with the search engine.

Re: Does the temperature of a baseball affect it's rebounding rating?

Re: differences in gravity at sea level & 1 and 2 miles alt.?

Re: How do acrobatic planes fly?

However, the simple answer is that it is not simple. So, like most physics questions, we can either do the experiment when appropriate, or try to compile the basic principles we understand and create a model. We have to accept the fact, that we don't know it all (physicists say this all the time), and try to hit the most important features. And sometimes, even after considering the apparently most important effects, we are still wrong because we missed something. Permit me a huge digression to evaluate temperature, humid, and air pressure and then come back to the question.

Modelling the flight of a golf ball is very difficult to do accurately. Golf ball manufactures do many things almost completely by trial and error when it comes to designing new golf balls. Experience and creativity are what lead to the which new dimple patterns, ball materials, and core construction is attempted. Because of the variability of balls, and the huge computational burden it would take to try to account for the dimples, drag, speed, density of the air, wind, and such, we must turn to what simple things we know.

There are a few generalities that can be applied.

First let's look at temperature. Anyone who has played golf,baseball or tennis when the temperature is below about 45 oF can tell that the contact with the ball feels different than at more spring/summer-like temperatures (60+ oF). Part of the reason is that the ball is less resilient (this goes for the club too). When the ball is struck more energy is lost, so the ball doesn't travel as far. Throw in harder ground and when the golfer swings to hit the ball, the ground can (not always) create more drag or less solid contact with the club face. The ball might roll farther on the ground, but it is likely that the competing effects will win.

Humidity is often underrated. Humid air is lighter than dry, despite what people say about the air being heavy. The heaviness of humid air is more from the reduced ability to cool down by sweating and the slight rise in breathing difficulty. Gaseous water (H2O) is lighter then the N2 or O2 that is replaces. I have experienced the effects of humidity while playing golf and softball. I used to live in St. Louis which a terribly humid place during the summer and fall. I played in a softball league that played games during the summer with start times that ranged from 6:00PM to 10:30PM. The later games typcially were played in a slight fog that arose because the field was in a valley. During the fog games, everyone could be a power hitter. I could routinely hit a softball over 300 feet at 11:00PM, but was lucky to clear 250 feet during the sunny games of 6:00 PM. If you look at Major League Baseball many of the dome stadiums used to be very poor for home runs (the Astrodome in particular), I think in part to the lower humidity that was prevalent for customer comfort.

The extreme of rain on the other hand will shorten the flight of a ball. The main reason is the constant pounding of the water against the ball. The rain drops work like little hammers of momentum to slow the ball down.

Finally let's consider air pressure which has probably the biggest effect of the three. Simple stated, less air pressure means less aerodynamic drag (air resistance). Viscosity (drag through a fluid) is inversely proportional to air pressure (or density, really). Since the golf ball does not depend on air pressure (or density) for thrust (like a jet engine), it will fly farther. The effects of air pressure (density) are usually approximated as linear. This is not a great approximation all the time, but it pretty close. Therefore, a 10% drop in air pressure will turn a 240 yard drive into about 267 yards.

If we look at the records of well known long driver Gerry James, we can see the effects of elevation (i.e. low air pressure) on distance. Notice the big hits all occur in Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona.


Winner: Pro longest drive event,
Houston Texas, 396 yards,
June 1993

Winner: Pro longest drive,
Cooper Creek, Colorado, 417 yards 1/2 inch @altitude,
recorded/filmed.
1991

Pro Longdrive Championships:
Miami, Florida, 410 yards,
November 1991

World Record Breaker Pro Longdrive Event:
448 yards, 2'3" Denver, Colorado, @altitude,
October, 1991

Winner: Metter,
Georgia, 381 yards,
October 1992

Winner: Pro longdrive event, BLASTERS,
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 319 yards (into 25 mph winds)

Winner: Pro longdrive, DUNAWAY'S RUNWAY, Championship,
362 yards, filmed,
June 1995

Winner: NITRO SHOOTOUT,
Mesquite, Nevada, 419 yards, filmed,
April 1997

Winner: Casa Grande, Arizona.
longdrive 444 yards,
July 1997
Winner: Hard Drive Power Golf Tour,
Denver, Colorado, 473 yards 2 feet 6 inches (competitive world
record)
September 28, 1997.
Gerry James is not a huge guy, but he knows how swing the driver. The folks that hold the long drive contests also know enough to stage their events in the mountains.

So with all this background, let's go back to your question:


If water vapor is lighter than dry air, why do balls seem to travel less
distance in high humidity conditions?
We know air pressure is a big factor. So the ball will travel farther if the air pressure is lower. Humid air does not necessary mean lower pressure, but chances are you play around the same area all the time, so the air pressure probably doesn't vary more than 5-10%. Certainly the temperature probably doesn't vary much when you observe these high humidity days, at least not enough to be a big effect. So it seems that I have talked around in a circle and come back to learning nothing. Well, maybe. Now we need to look at other effects:
-Hot, humid day with less wind, the golfer will get tired.
-Wet and humid days the ground will be soft and this will reduce roll and potentially allow the golfer to dig more turf at contact.
-We don't understand something fundamentally different about how the ball interacts with the air when it is more humid.
-This is a placebo effect: the ball is probably travelling about the same distance and we have created an observation. A similar myth was that batters popped out more with aluminum bats. This was widely accepted back in the mid-70's and early 80's. This is simply not true.


In general, your average golfer does more poorly when the course conditions are not "average." So any variation from 75 degrees and partly sunny with a light breeze creates the conditions for observations of phantom effects. I, for example, often play horribly when the course is very wet because I tend to be in the heavy wet rough and if I miss swing slightly I get a big old hunk of sod in the fairway.

Sincerely,

Tom "No Short Game" Cull




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June 30, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
Trumpball . I pasted the above explanation for you . Read down to where they are talking about softballs . He claims humid air is lighter than dry . Don`t know who is right or wrong . Makes for interesting reading . JB
June 30, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts

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Discussion: How Weather Affects Softball Travel Distances:
Posted Discussion
Oct. 24, 2007
bashbro1
Men's 60
255 posts
How Weather Affects Softball Travel Distances:
From the Desk of bashbro1 Kent, WA:

As a softball flies through the air, the air pushes back against it, resisting its motion and decreasing the distance the ball travels. If you don't believe that air can provide such resistance, go ahead and just stick your arm out of a car window at 120 mph and feel the push you get. A lot of emphasis is paid to the “density” of the air mass around the field. Of course air density is a localized phenomena and can be quite different from place-to-place, from day-to-day and is dependent on such atmospheric variables such as: ‘temperature’, ‘humidity’ and air ‘pressure’. In thin, or low density air a ball can travel faster and farther because there's less air resistance like for example in Carson City’s “Rockin’ Reno”.

Let’s quickly breakdown the importance of these above mentioned atmospheric variables that affect ball flight and distance:

(1.) Air Pressure. Air under low pressure is less dense, or thinner, than air under high pressure. This is the main reason your long flies carry farther in Carson City given its atmospheric pressure at that altitude of 4687ft, which is about 15% less than sea level pressures like in Seattle, WA. A ball that would have flown 320 ft at sea level would carry further by some 20-30’ or about 350’ in the higher altitude. On a low pressure day the pressure is only one or two per cent lower than on a normal day, so a 320 ft shot @ sea level would only carry about 322 ft! Obviously this air pressure effect is not significant enough to give it much consideration.

So then, what does make a difference on a daily basis @ the same altitude? Well, how about the (2.) Humidity? Air with high humidity is less dense, therefore is thinner than is counterpart or dry air. But here again, the affect is so slight it would only account for a long fly traveling just a few inches farther on a humid day. Here’s lies the paradox regarding humid air like we experience in the St. Louis ISA Worlds this past summer. According atmospheric scientists, humid air will make the softball (44COR 375lbs Comp.) actually heavier and less elastic than a ball in dry air, and consequently, it will not carry as well even though humid air is ‘thinner’ than dry air. The effect on distance playing in high humidity would carry your blast say 335ft rather than 315ft which are just rough “ballpark” estimates by scientists.

Hey how about Temp? The higher the (3.) Temperature of the air will make the air less dense, or thinner, than cold air. Here again we’re only talking about adding 10ft or so on your 300’ home run in say 75-80degree temps. And as we have all experienced, the ball loses a significant amount of its compression for every degree over 80 degrees which will off-set any gains with the thinner air.

Okay, here’s the kicker so to speak… (4.) “The Wind is Mariah”. Air moving along in the same direction as the ball is flying pushes back less on the ball, allowing it to travel farther. In fact, the wind is very often the single most important thing to consider about the weather when hitting home runs in a tournament. A 320ft shot in calm conditions could result in a 365ft+ blast just with a 15-20 mph tail wind and vice versa with the wind blowing into the batter’s face.

So of all the atmospheric variables we deal with in an every day game, “wind direction” has by far the greatest influence on your distance. I know for a fact that in New Zealand, the top seeded team in a tournament gets their choice of field assignments based on “wind direction”, and that’s how important wind speed and direction is in Senior Softball as well!

Bashbro1(Art Eversole Ruth 60’s Player/Webmaster)
Oct. 24, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
1212 posts
Absolutely brilliantly interesting stuff.
You're a senior softball gem.
Say hi to Tommy and BEAR and the crusher for me.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
Kevin at Anaconda / Trump told me that the average ssoftball will lose 5 lbs of compression for every degree that the temperature is above 72 degrrees, and will gain 5 pounds of compression for every degree below 72 degrees.
He also advises that Trump's 44/375 ball With MCT ( Micro Cell Technology) does not lose any compression on hot, humid Summer days due to the unique manufacturing process that is used on those balls.
We have used those balls in our leagues and tournaments a few times with excellent results in 90+ degree days. They don't lose a thing in the heat and humidity.
Oct. 25, 2007
DoubleL10
Men's 60
295 posts
Here in Houston we use these balls in our HCSSL League. They do not carry well since they are stored in a locked cabinet in a scorebooth that gets well over 110 degrees in the summer. The ball loses significant compression here in this condition. It takes a lot to cause this to happen, but it does happen here.

They do fine when stored at room temperature and then used.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
No doubt. That's ball abuse. I hate it when that haappens.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
This show appeared on TV every week right before Gunsmoke. It's star actor had his pistol pointed right at you during the opening scene. Name this series and the actor.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
Sorry, wrong topic. What a meathead !
Oct. 25, 2007
Dbax
Men's 50
789 posts
LMAO!!!
Oct. 26, 2007
hitt2
246 posts
Now this is positive and helpful info Nice job

Add to this discussion:


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June 30, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
The above post is from Bashbro ,from this board . He puts it better than I have read anywhere else . JB
June 30, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
Trump .According to Bashbros comments . It looks like, if we just made Trumps 44/375 MCT ball the manditory ball. The core would not be affected by humid conditions and you guys back there wouldn`t have any problems . It would be the end of the problem for humid situations. JB
June 30, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
You cannot compare softballs at 100 in Az and softballs at 96 in Ga.

If the players in the west played more in the east and southeast they would probably quit playing

OR MOVE:) Kevin good seeing you in Reno.
June 30, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Joe,
We played our first national with Kelly's
in Panama City, Fla.
some years ago
with unbelievable heat and humidity
and the balls were flying all over the place.
Of course heavy air affects the flight of the ball but not as much as taking the compression out of 'em.
Bad balls are bad.
Good balls are good.
Me want good balls.

July 1, 2009
tattooball
620 posts
Joe it was great seeing you in Reno, I hope your back is doing better.

A perfect example of the balls was this past weekend. 99 with 94% humidity in MD on friday. Very few home runs were hit, none of them hit long.

You can't compare a baseball with a softball. Baseballs are wool and a softball is polyurathane. In the heat the poly loses compression very quickly, the humidity increases that. Just like the heat index.

Poly is very pourous and the humidity make the core act like a sponge and absorb moisture. If a ball gets unwrapped and the moisture content is 50% and the humidity is 90% within an hour the ball will gain in weight and moisture content to match the outside humidity level, then the temp will keep that core at the outside temp and that is where you will lose performance.




























July 1, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
I agree with Kevin. I've read and heard about how humid air is less dense but still I never saw more hrs as a result of higher humidity. This past weekend there were very few hrs.
In the 80's we would microwave our Worth Red Dots to boil out the moisture. We would watch them in the micorwave and see the water droplets form on the cover then evaporate. Our belief was that it made the ball lighter.
July 1, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Kevin and Bruce,
I know so little about how balls are made
now or before but
Kevin, are balls being made differently now then let's say 3 or 4 years ago?
And, those microcell balls of yours
we used in Las Vegas last year
didn't drop off hardly at all in the high heat.
Can you make more of those balls for us?
They bounced a little differently but
they'd be OK with me given
what alternatives are being trotted out
before us.

And I can't help but tell you that I have noticed the performance of balls
dropping steadily over the last 2 years
and still don't like it, very much at all.

Is your Trump Stote ball made the same with the same specs over the last couple of years?
That would help me/us get a grip
on what I/we feel is going on
in and around our game.

Thanks for asking about,
my performance in Reno.
It's my hamstring that's injured
but it would sure look like
my back was hurt, too.
Sorry we didn't give you a better
game against the Mavericks.
Tell Big Mike I said hi.
He's a great ambassador for you
and our game.



July 1, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Kevin feeling much better, when I got back from Reno I threw the muscle relaxers down the toilet and started physical therapy. The people I'm working with use a pilates based regimen. Lot's of core work. Played two weekends in a row, and got three straight games in the Outfield with no ill effects the next day. Last week 5 games in one day in Palm Springs 115 heat and a 5 hour drive back to Vegas with no issues. Diagnosed with a compressed disk and arthritis in right hip. The exercises I've been given have added about 45 minutes to my morning routine, small price to pay. Since the therapy has ended I signed up for Pilates classes. Looks like no magic pills just hard work from here on out. Senior ball is good stuff if I'm not playing I probably wouldn't do any of this stuff just sit on the couch and pop some pain pills.
July 1, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
Trumpball. Your explanation about the core absorbing moisture up to the humidity level makes sense . Too bad cores aren`t protected from this like the " Evil" balls supposedly are . Played in Oakdale, Ca. this weekend, in 110 degrees ,right by the river . Don`t know what the humidity was , but I know it wasn`t 90% . We were using Lexxum`s 44/375`s on 285 foot fences . Homerun hitters were still hitting them . A lot of them 40 to 60 feet over the fence . Never played back east . Sounds like I will avoid doing so . Jb
July 1, 2009
Joncon
289 posts
CURRENT PPR is useless but don't be so quick to eleiminate it.

Change it to something less open to interpetation, Put a couple chaulk line on the field.

As for protecting infielders? Infielders are allowed to stand as deep as they like and don't have to concentrate on throwing strikes so they can be MUCH more prepared to defend.

When you PITCH a ball, you naturally tend to follow it all the way thru and that costs precious split seconds in reaction time.



IMHO


Home run rules should be one up, then singles.

PPR should be two lines, starting at the plate spreading to 4' wide at the rubber. A ball hit within that zone, below the top of the pitchers head, will be an out. Pitchers choice in case of playable balls (IE: DP's). If he attempts a throw, ball is in play.
July 1, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Einstein,glad to see you are going to SPA,July 17 week end I hope.Look forward to seeing you and the gang,who are you going to spa with.The balls in Vegas last year were a little weird to field but they did hit well.in the heat.Looks like a real competitive week end.Some more games like we had in Vegas would be a lot of fun. Stay Well.
Ray
July 2, 2009
Dale
Men's 50
76 posts
Whether you like the PPR or not, it is not well defined for the umpire. Something as controversial as this should be a 'black or white' call, much like the strike mat that we use.
I'm not necessarily condoning the rule, as the 'middle' has always been considered part of the playing field. However a simple way to enforce this (at least for this year....things do change overnight) and to add protection to the pitcher, is to give the pitcher, especially a mobile, reflexive one, a bigger advantage.
IMO, ANY line drive, and I repeat ANY line drive that a pitcher can get his glove on anywhere on the field (not restricted to a pitcher;'s box)is a DBO. This might eliminate some double plays on line drives caught by the pitcher, but would not eliminate DP attempts on ground balls. This rule would certainly discourage hitting the middle against agile pitchers.
Hear me when I say, I'm neither campaigning for or against the rule, just stating that if it is a rule, it should have some teeth and some clarity.
I may be missing a big point somewhere, but would this not allow the middle to still be live, but also discourage 'pot shots' at the pitcher (which I know no Senior would do), while at the same time rewarding the pitcher for his defensive finesse?
I know some purists would argue too many changes already, for which I agree, but, if the changes are being made, at least allow there to be standards by which it can be enforced.
July 2, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Ok softball players, I have read and tried to study this as best I can.I remember when we were hitting T-4000's back in the day, and swinging 38 oz.Bombats.I was hitting the ball out of any park we played in.I hate to say this, but there were injuries and a few deaths related to this ball.However, every weekend we had 20-30-40-50 and in the major tournaments, we sometimes had over a 100 teams.All going to play the game they love.Has that changed now? With the bats, balls and new rules, games a changing.
When we take the field, we all hope and pray "nobody" gets hurt or even worse killed, but we ALL know when we take the field, things can happen.
For me I like playing the game the way it was meant to play.Nobody wants to see a player injured, I got hit with a shot at 3rd base in the World tournament in Phoenix, I had to come out of the game for awhile.The player who hit me , came over to make sure I was OK, now that's Class !
To SSUSA AND TO SPA and the other associations, for my 2 cents, Please leave the game to be played like it should be.I know I will catch hell over this, but it was the way I was taught to play.All be safe and take care, and no I am not a pitcher, but a lot of my buddies are and they feel the same.


Thanks for listening,
Kenny
July 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kenny,
Great comments.
What you have said comes from the heart
and carries the spirit of a softball player.
I can't imagine it said better that danger as Nancy has said, marks the experience essentially and soulfully
and hitting good balls
is essential to the joy
of OUR experience.
Anything else just won't cut it,
is ignorant or and/or
serves other masters.


July 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bill Ruth, Terry and Dave.
We had a great time in Portland
but you guys have to hear and listen
to us and what we have to say
about our game.
I know you care and as you do
you must listen and administer
our sport with us and for us.
Again, Bill,
it was great seeing you
back on the field after that traumatic
injury.
You are a champion to have done so
once and forever.

July 2, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
einstein,
Thanks, take care and be safe.Best to you in 2009.
July 3, 2009
tattooball
620 posts
There was only 1 player that died when those balls were used and he was hit in the chest in between heartbeats. Sad to say but even a tennis ball would have produced the same injury.
July 3, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
It doesn't matter what rule that you come up with to protect the pitcher, unless that you mandate that the pitcher wear headgear and a chest protector, all other rules do not prevent the pitcher from serious injury, they only penalize the batter! If the batter hits a shot at the pitcher, and hurts him, he will get called out but the pitcher is still injured! Make it mandatory for the pitcher to wear headgear and a chest protector, and have him pitch from a 4 x 5 black mat. Anything that hits the mat is an out. This will keep the game as close to its' origional format as possible.
July 3, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
trumpball,I know of a 3rd base coach who was hit in the head with a t-4000 and died and I know of the case your referring too also.I am not real sure a tennis ball hit with a softball bat would of done the same thing.My point was, the PPR rule is not working, period.
Thanks
July 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Greg,
There's tons of things that can be done
like making the mat larger, widening/deepening the rubber,
1-1 count, increasing arc limits,
letting pitchers fake/juke like USSSA,
that would directly help pitchers from being hit that don't change the fundamentals of the game
and should be considered.
It seems there was a rush to judgment
that our game had become dangerously
unsafe, which is without convincing evidence and the idea that changing
the ball to some funky pillow will solve all our problems.
If a ball can be made that is both lively AND less dangerous
then there'll be something to discuss.
Until then,
let us have OUR game
with it's dangers and joys
that come with playing/hitting
with a good bat/ball combo.
Albert Pujols has hit 30 homeruns
already and some pro hit a ball
into the upper deck of some stadium
that hadn't been done since the steroid era.
None of these things can be done
using a "too limited" bat/ball combo
or some funky bouncing ball
that doesn't go anywhere
when hit square and hard.
July 3, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
I agree 100% with you Joe!
July 4, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Another issue about what is wrong at the moment is the Major-plus class. It's a joke and is not needed. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH TEAMS!! How much longer are teams going to spend this kind of money to travel to play the same couple of teams over and over again. Not us. Major-plus and Major needs to be combined. Maybe they can be separated in Phoenix at the Worlds, but it can't anywhere else. We played in the 50 Major-plus in Portland with THREE TEAMS and one of them was 55+. They made us take a day off of work and start on Friday! I have not seen a Major-plus team that is that much better than everyone else (with some kind of HR restrictions and/or run rule) that warrants breaking it down to two upper divisions of play. If we can get some kind of equalizer system that is pretty fair for everyone, let's combine Major-plus and Major and have some decent tournaments with different teams to play. Senior Softball only needs three divisions - Major, AAA and AA.
July 4, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Jawood,
I agree, every tournament we have went to( we are a over 60 AAA) we play pool games against Major/Major + teams and this decides where we are in the reg. bracket.Last tournament there were ONLY 2 major/major + teams, and there tournament between these two teams started Sunday as a round robin.If there is not enough major/major + teams to make a tournament between themselves, let them play round robins at the start and don't combine them with the AAA and AA tournament. We all spend a lot of money to go and play and when you get seeded after you just got beat by major/major + teams, just doesn't set well.
July 4, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Jawood and Kenny.
I agree.
Major and major plus
can be/should be one, easily
with 5 run innings and equalizer home runs.
We do it all the time in NorCal.
However,
don't get too comfortable, yet.
The war we are in regarding changing the balls we use has only just begun.
Everything else will be moot
compared to losing the good balls
we want, need and deserve to hit.
Some folks have been doing a lot of back work to ensure that we move
to shitty 275 or 300 by 52 balls.
That's what we can't let happen
or it won't be fun enough to play
our game.
Get ready.
They're few but powerful
and they're coming for us
as we speak.
If you haven't figured out yet
who's leading
the charge it will get clearer
and clearer.
Follow the money.
Who's going to profit the most?
That's who's bringing it.

July 4, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
At the tournament in Marietta the teams were divided in to two divisions per age group. In the 50+ age group there was the platinum and gold. Platinum had 6 teams, major and major plus teams; gold had 5 I believe, AAA teams.
In my opinion this is the way qualifiers should be set up.
July 5, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Bruce, Good tournament in Marietta. However, it would be nice to play in our peer group (60 Major). Playing down is getting to be the norm for the team...Don't have the answers, but 3 ratings (AA, AAA and Major) would help.
July 5, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Seven (7) Major-plus teams at the 50+ classification west of Texas and two of them are not even fielding a team this season. Five teams is enough for a separate classification in the West?
July 5, 2009
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
I think Jawood's observation on Major-plus teams is eye-opening! With so few teams in this elite category, it seems that it would be easy to have a central authority (SSUSA?) just call the managers and arrange tournament brackets around their team's availability, advising all teams how many others will be in the tournament and allowing them to withdraw if there is no meaningful competition.

Also, with so few teams (and Jawood's knowledge that some are not even playing anymore) it should be easy to rerank teams when necessary due to personnel changes. I play on a major team that is no longer major after injuries, players leaving for major+, new members, etc. and is reflected in our tournament losses. Yet we can't get reranked, it seems, until we get beat up a few more times in SSUSA tournaments. Evaluating 30-40 teams for an accurate ranking could be a chore, but evaluating a relative handful seems very doable.
July 5, 2009
JamesLG
303 posts

Hi All:

We played the Northwest Nationals last week with only 4 teams in what is traditionally the largest division (AAA). Instead of playing the same teams up to 3 times there really should be equalizer rules so teams can play up or down and just forget the HR as out rule. This rule stinks and everybody knows it. I am sure a panel of coaches can come up with a format that will be equitable for teams moving up or down. I believe we need to think outside the box to combine divisions when need be.

Thank You:

James
July 6, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
JamesLG,
I don't have a problem combing the teams in a tournament, if you combine AA and AAA. Combine the Major/Major+.I looked at the ratings on this website and there are "57" Major amd Major + teams. I can't understand with almost 60 teams, why they can't have a good tournament between themselves.
As I stated earlier, my problem being a 60 AAA team, and playing a Major or Major + in the seeding game, if we lose to them we are in a lower bracket than maybe we would of been if we would of played AA or AAA.This has happened to us several times this year.We all spend a lot of money to go and play these tournaments, let us play our own divisions.

Thanks,
July 6, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Sorry about the spelling, Its earlly.
July 6, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Here's a plan for Major and Major-plus ....

1. Combined the divisions.

2. If SSUSA feels that there are some teams that are a notch better than the normal Major team, they get a + put by their team. They are still Major and play Major rules, but the + means that they have to play with an equalizer when they play a team that does not have a + by their team.

3. When a Major plays a Major or when a + plays a +, there is no equalizer, they play straight up.

As for what the equalizer would be, our team has come up with a plan for that too, but would like to see what people think of the basic idea. A good equailizer program is one where a team that is giving something wins around 50% of the time and a team that is receiving something wins around 50% of the time.

July 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There are some terrific ideas
about how to make things better/work.
We may be old but
we're sure not dead (in the head),
with few exceptions.
In NorCal we give 5 or 7 or however much runs when the + teams run
with AAA and lower major clubs
and it works fine to keep things competitive.
I've said it before
if the Mavericks played in NorCal
they could be beaten by any club
they get bracketed with.
But, guys,
the biggest obstacle to our enjoyment
going forward isn't from major/major plus concerns.
It's the ball.
Without a good ball the freakin' game
isn't worth playin' for most everyone
and there's a couple of powerful folks who's financial needs and self interests will be satisfied
at our expense if we're not vigilant,
confident and together to say
"Hell no" when they try to foist some funky pillow ball on us
as "the answer" and only way to go.
It's not and we're not.





July 7, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Jawood:
I totally agree with you on combining Major and Major plus, at least in the 50's and 55's. Thanks for keeping this topic alive. My team, OLR Nighthawks (55 M plus), has played 10 events/54 games this year, but only one of those (Reno) had a 55 M+ division for us. We've played 20 games against 50 M & M+ because there was nobody else to play. We are not going to Salt Lake City because we do not want to be the only team (again) in our division. Between the 5 run innings, home run limits, coin flips etc. there are enough equalizers in place to make the M+ division unnecessary. Extra fielders or the 5-run stimulus package are not needed. NOBODY, especially SSUSA Brass, can objectively define an M+ team. Why, and for whom, does this division exist? The rating is used subjectively, politically, capriciously, and inconsistently for NO BENEFIT TO THE PLAYERS or the GAME. Benefits FOR combining M & M+ FAR OUTWEIGH any reason for continuing the M+ division. Better attendance at events with bigger brackets, more variety of teams to play. For those who will cry unfair about playing strong teams, look yourself in the mirror and say those words out loud. Improve, move down or back to local leagues, or petition for a "Jewelry Challenged" Division. Three levels is more than enough for senior tournament softball.

JMHO

Don Newhard
OLR Nighthawks
55 M+
July 8, 2009
the wood
1085 posts
Don, as you know, I have been an opponent of combining the two upper divisions. My primary concern has been the 'care and feeding' of the teams in the lower echelon of the M divisions. Many of them were recent (within the past year) 'move ups' and perhaps the combined divisions would be unfair to them.
But you make strong points on several elements of this potential change. I will say that SSUSA has elevated some teams into the M+ division, certainly more so than the other popular associations. While this is a step in the right direction, it does nothing for the lower M+ teams (based upon current ratings)as opposed to their position were there only one level (plus AA & AAA).
As a 60 M+ team we've been somewhat fortunate in that we had 8 teams in Reno but I have noticed that two of them are M again. We're supposed to have 5 in GA (SPA) and I believe that there will be 4 in TN (ISA).
The long story made short, I'm no longer adverse to the concept of combining M & M+. Your program of Verbal Chinese Water Torture as taken its toll on me... BTW, the things that you stated about 50 & 55 are also true of the 60 division other than the Reno turn out.
Through June 30, we've played in 7 events (once/month) and the most 60 M+ teams we have seen (aside from Reno)has been 2... that was in Las Vegas and we had to give up 5 runs to both of them (however, only in one game did the other team accept the runs. LVSSA used the summit ratings rather than SSUSA's ratings... the point being that the 2 other M+ teams are 'M here and M+ there'.
We played in combined events (age-wise) in 3 of our 7 tourneys.
BW
July 8, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Esteemed Mr. Woodroof:
I like it, Verbal Chinese Water Torture (VCWT), my kids call it track 5 on dad's broken record. My solution to your objection of the teams at the lower end of a combined M+/M is to allow them to return to the middle level (currently AAA). Same with the AAA, allow them to go to AA. I believe there would be the same amount of teams, but a lot less grief over the ratings sham and small tourney draws.

Brief Editorial/General Thoughts - I'm done with the whining element in this senior game. I was moved at Pinky's funeral last week (Steve Weibel of Double Play 50's, covered in previous posts) to see a number of attendee's wearing their jerseys from teams they played on with Pinky. 30+ years of So Cal softball history on display. Not one guy spoke of unfair team ratings, home run rules, PPR, or bad softballs. Everyone commented on how fortuntate they were for good health, and the unique ability to still be playing ball. Those no longer playing commented on how much fun the game was, and of course, what a character Pinky was. You might say that would be expected at a memorial. For me, a deeper message was clear that what really matters in our game/hobby/senior softball community is the friendships made, good times shared, and the blessings of still being able to compete in a game we loved as kids. This life owes us nothing, and this game does not owe us sure-thing rings or homeruns. Play Ball!

Don Newhard
55 M+ Division
July 8, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Would like to be clear about our biggest gripe is not about being classified as a Major-plus team. We want to "play ball" too, there is just isn't anybody to play with!
July 8, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Jawood:
I agree with your position and appreciate you carrying the torch for combining Major & Major Plus. I don't think your gripe falls in the whining category. We are in the same boat as your team. We just want to play a variety of teams in our age group. There is no glory in being called Major Plus, mostly isolation. My problem is with guys/teams that are always whining about teams being too strong and crying for teams to be moved up. We dealt with that for two years on Evolution. This year on Nighthawks we just rolled with it when we got moved up. Funny, we've (55M+) played more games against 50 M & M+ then you have as a 50 M+ team.
Good Luck rest of your season
See you in Vegas and Phoenix

Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55M+
July 9, 2009
wagon487
Men's 50
524 posts
Einstein makes a good point that is getting overlooked in this thread.
If they change balls, this game will no longer be fun. Let's make sure that doesn't happen. What do we need to do?
July 9, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
First, don't get sold a bill of goods.
Think and ask questions and follow the money, R&D when apropos.
Second, tell TD's like Dave and Terry
and independent owners like Bill Ruth,
SPA, LVSSA what's what.
I will crawl to LVSSA this year
to support their staying with the balls
and rules we love to play with/by.
Bill and Terry still play the game
and are more apt to get what players
and those who love us and our game
have to say.
Last, there's always an alternative
even when those trying to slam dunk us
say there isn't.
In NorCal, we say no and have a blast
and play the best softball in the country.
We love our game and don't want it changed.
Don't be afraid to say so.
There's way more of us than them.
July 9, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Einstein, We are in the dark in regards to this NorCal stuff. Do you get teams from other states or is it just local? Is there big tournaments that a lot of teams come to?
July 10, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Jawood,
We have other teams registered from Nevada
and other states.
Most of our teams are from California
but they don't have to be.
You should check out our website
at www.ncssa.info/ for more info.
Even the Stoneman is coming down for one
of our tournaments at the Field of Dreams complex in Manteca in August.
July 10, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
From NV: 2 tems been here 1-2 times so far, a 55 and a 60 team. NV Nitro & Reno Express
From OR: 3 teams been here about the same amount as above for tourneys...I know came once and it was rained out... teams are 65,70, 75.
OR Roadrunners teams

But there are others from up state and down south that come the the games as well.
July 10, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
SPA Nationals (6) Major Plus teams.Nice turn out for 50 M+.Been reading horror stories about 55 M+ teams.The problem exist east of Miss. as well.Let me put my spin on this.Reason there are so few 55 M+ teams seems to me is that most 55's at that skill level are still playing with the 50 M or M+ teams.Our 50 M+ roster has 5 (55) and over players on it.This is diminishing the number of 55 M+ teams.So you either combine 50 and 55 M+ teams this would also allow 55+ teams to add 50 players and everyone plays straight up.Only at M+ level let them separate at the lower levels.This is a way to increase participation for the M+ 50 and m+ 55 teams.Think about it,there already combined for the most part and 55 M+ guys can play at that level and are doing it now on most 50 M+ teams.Including the ageless Einstein.Just a thought to beef up tourneys for M+ div. or make everyone play in their own age group,which I don't like as much and it wouldn't really increase numbers in two m+ divs. @ tourneys.
July 10, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Thanks Einstein and Taits. Anything in the 50+ division?
July 10, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Not from out of state currently listed. But many 50's teams all over CA, top to bottom in all ratings.
http://ncssa.info go to links on right side, then down to rosters. Gives players and team "location".
July 10, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
GBuilders, I agree that a lot of 55's are still play in the 50's and also there are 60 and over playing 55's. I also agree the way to fix M+ is do away with the age 55 division but as I have said on here before change the age group to 50-57 & 58-65 in M+ only.
July 10, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Ray,
It's getting to be that time again.
See you in SPA.
I'll be playing 60's with the Old A's.
That idea about having only 50's and 60's is great.
I think you hit it out of the park
with that one.
Say hi to Reedus, Stick and the guys
for me.
Jawood,
in Turlock this weekend,
for example, the 6 team upper bracket
which as Ray stated is a good tournout
for 50 major plus nationals,
has 4 major plus national title holders
in it.
Old A's 60s, 5 Spot 50 and East Bay Oldies @ 50 major plus,
MTC 55's major plus
(all national title holders)
Old Dawg's (Major national title holder
and Advance Contruction
who can beat any of the above teams
straight up.
That's a normal weekend for us
here in NorCal.
We play with good balls, 1.2 bats,
5 run innings, equalizer HR's at 1,
HR's as singles
and NO Freakin' PPR
and we have a blast.

July 10, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Agree JohnBob.That would work fine.We have a very good 55 M+ team in Mich.They just won the NASCS World Series. against Conn. Sports Auth.only 2 55 m+ teams in tourney,best 2 out of 3.Einstein my friend I will See you in Dalton.
July 10, 2009
the wood
1085 posts
In terms of potential solutions for the 50 & 55 M+ problem, wouldn't it make more sense to combine the M/M+ divisions than to broaden the age brackets?
BW
July 10, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
the wood ,changing the age brackets would help the 60 M+ also. There are 17 M+ teams in 60 age group same as 55's in 50's there's 23 so if these 57 teams are put into 2 age brackets then it stands to reason you would have more teams in each.
I'm sure there are a few teams rated M that could play M+ but my bigest problem with combining the 2 are teams like our team, we are a local league team, don't recruit from bordering states and in about 30 games this year we have hit a total of 3 hr's. We do ok in M but have a hard time against M+ teams.
The main reason I don't see a need to combine the 2 division's is as the old saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it. Well the Major division is doing just fine. In Phoenix last year we played 55M there were 14 teams and a very even Tourney with a lot of 1 run games. The 50's had 26 Major teams & 60's there were 16. So why take a chance of messing up the Major division when it would be real simple going to the 2 age groups.
July 10, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
I meant to say it stands to reason you would have more teams in each Tournament.
July 10, 2009
Sr34
14 posts
Just a comment on the theory of getting hurt by a batted ball...were freakin 50+ it hurts when we get out of the car. Leave the game alone. Use good balls, good bats and get rid of the Home Run limitations that evidently the players voted in. I would be more concerned about giving me mouth to mouth after my fat azz made it to second.
July 10, 2009
the wood
1085 posts
JohnBob:
I don't know you nor do I know where you play (location, age, etc.)... I see that you're a M team. But your response sounds to me like someone 'who wants to go to heaven but isn't willing to die'... you're happy solving 'our problem' even though you seem to have no real experience with M+.
You're ok with the M+ guys playing against guys 5-10 years younger but you're not ok with your team playing against guys its own age.
Also, there are not as many M+ teams as you have stated (50, 55 & 60)... forget what the ratings board says... the real number is probably 50% less than you have stated.
The main reason that you don't see a need to combine the divisions is because you don't want to be inconvenienced. I can understand that but it isn't likely that we'll look to you for solutions.
BW
July 10, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
JohnBob, the Major-plus teams I have seen so far this year really are no better than many Major teams (except the Mavericks). Most are Major-plus in name only and would not dominate the Major class at all. The top level of Senior Softball should revolve around one team. The Major division may be fine in your mind, but Major-plus sucks and we deserve to play!
July 10, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Jawood
You are right on as usual. Same thing in 55 M/M+. There are some strong teams rated M+, but none so strong that they have to be isolated from the rest of the upper-end 55 teams. Because we are 55M+ we've played 22 of our 54 games against 50M & M+. Not a problem for us, but the 5-year divisions exist for a reason, starting in the 40's. In Mesquite (TOC event), we had to play two 50M+ teams in a round robin when there were 9 55 M teams having a ball in their own age bracket. Several weeks later in LVSSA, 2 55 M+ and 2 55 M teams (3 of which were in Mesquite) played each other without equalizers. Result? A very competitive fun tournament won by one of the 55 M teams with no drama or whining about the M+ teams ruining the sport.

John Bob -
Unfortunately, "it" is broken when an arbitrary, subjective system excludes and isolates teams by labeling them M+. Having the spector of being labeled M+ causes all kinds of unnecessary behavior and controversy.

Here is how the M/M+ system really works. After disbanding last year, my 50 M team, Evolution (tied for 9th in Phoenix 2008), was again re-rated 50M+. HUH?????? Seems we were "borderline", whatever that means. 7 of us moved to the 55 M Nighthawks, who also finished 9th in Phoenix. With the click of a mouse, the 7 of us were magically transformed into again into super-men who could no longer mix with the mere mortals in the M categories (LOL, really loud) and the Nighthawks naturally had to be moved to 55 M+. Run differential this!!! We did not complain, and I am not complaining now about our specific re-class. We are fine and happy.

The reason I ramble on is to illustrate the absurdity of the M+ rating and how it is used and abused. This weekend in Menifee, LAF (rated 50M+ partially because they have 4 super-human former Evolution players), had a chance to play against 4 strong 50 M teams. Seems like a good chance to play the required event for reclassification consideration, right. BUT NOOOOO, they have to play the 3 55 M+ team just because they are rated M+. Last qualifier in SO CA for the year, so sorry LAF. Allowing the 3 55 M+ teams to play the 3 55 M teams in Menifee would also give the 55 M+ teams a basis for comparison in any ratings appeals. SO SORRY, NO CAN DO THAT EITHER. What we are stuck with is name calling, meaningless labeling, and a broken, subjective system that punishes success and quarantines top teams. With combined M & M+, none of this nonsense would exist. Let's play more ball when we still can, instead of legislating and manipulating the game to death with misguided attempts to level the playing field . ALL WE NEED IS IN PLACE, THREE DIVISIONS IS ENOUGH!

The one they call Larry Tate;
Nighthawks 55 M+
July 10, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Hi Don, I won't be at Menifee, did I see this correctly that LAF will be playing all 55 teams and none of the 50's? I'm sure Barny will embellish on my whereabouts so before he does I will be seeing the Lion King play at Mandalay Bay with my wife Saturday afternoon. The season has kind of ebbed and flowed for me. Too many on field discussion about 5 run rules and major teams getting the benefit of Major plus rules and on and on. The best tournaments and most fun I have had this year were the mixed 40/50 tournies, non senior sanctioned events. Got to play teams like JK Inc. in the 40's and the Mavericks in the 50's in my opinion the two top teams in the country in both their age brackets. Enjoy the games against the Mavericks the most, Sal, Duff, Mango, Bully, Turbo, and the rest of Kenny's crew. You got to lace them up or your in for a really long day. Reno was interesting never played on muscle relaxers before, my back and hip were really on fire. We had a couple of really good games against 5 Spot and the Northwest legends. It's really a shame more teams don't step up and play against these types of teams. It's only dangerous if your used to playing lazy and aren't paying attention. Otherwise it's fun to play, it's funny when I play my last senior game whether this year or years down the road, I'll only remember the games against the likes of the Gekle's, Mavericks, JK's whether they were wins or losses. Good luck and enjoy Menifee say hi to your team for me and don't believe a word from Barny about some secret crush I have on Elton John.
July 10, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
BW,didn't aim to get you upset. I play 3rd and manage Jim & Joe's from Ky, we are playing 60M. Will be in Dalton next week and was hoping to meet you, because after reading your post
for years agree with you most of the time. If we disagree on this so be it life goes on. We did spend 1st half of last year rated 55M+ after winning ISA world in 07 that had 5 teams 2 were aaa. Anyway we played M+ and experienced the 2 or 3 team Tourneys and I can understand the frustration that the M+ teams have.
I feel that this being my 14th year in senior ball and the fact that this is a discussion board I should be able to voice my opinon. If you or anyone disagrees with my opinon please don't yell.lol I admit we played mostly aaa until winning 55aaa SPA in 2006. My opinon is there is very little difference between aaa and M but a hugh gap between M and M+. Most if not all M+ teams recruit from bordering states and put the best team on field they can and there is nothing wrong with that. But a lot of M teams are like us ,league teams that like to compete and travel together.
Last year we had 6 guys that could have played in 60 age but there were 5 that turn 60 this year, so we waited on them and still had 4 real good players to young. This happens all the time to most teams(I don't know about M+) that's why I think the 50-57 & 58-64 would work. If a player is say 57 and didn't want to play against 50 year olds he could play 55M.
To me if there is a problem try to take care of it in house within the M+ division. Maybe we should go back to the 75 mile from coach we had years ago,maybe that would narrow the gap between M & M+.
No BW I don't expect to be on any committee trying to come up with fix for M+ but I do have a opinon and a right to voice it.
July 11, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Joe:
Yes, you did read correctly about LAF having to play 55 M+ when there are 4 50 M teams in the same event. Amazing, huh. Sacramento actually agreed with trying to have them play 50's, but it didn't happen. Sorry you won't be there, always good to see you and try to figure a way to stop you at the dish. Enjoy the play!
Don
July 11, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Jawood I beg to differ with you on the major + issue.It doesn't suck to play against the best teams in the country,you can't sit up there in the extreme northwest and expect teams to come to you.I think a week end at the SPA nats would change your thinking on M/M+ being equal.How many trips east of Mississippi has your team made.Had you guys showed up at Midwest tourney we would of had five M+ teams had you entered SPA Nats. we would of had 7 or 8.We got moved up this year as well.(not complaining)just moving on.We were AAA in 06 moved to major after one tourney win,major for 2 years and 3 tourneys won now M+ and have one our first major event @ M+.But to find games we have to travel. We travel from Michigan west of the big muddy 2 to 3 times a year.I thought Joe L. did a good job of getting M+ schedules out to other M+ managers and it has given some teams the knowledge to find tourneys with good participation.Not trying to beat you up on this issue but it seems that a handful of teams do long haul tourneys and the rest just sit around waiting for these teams to show up in their back yards to fill their tourneys.Don't expect you guys to show up in Mich. any time soon but somewhere in between wouldn't hurt.Good Luck and we will see you in Vegas,Phoenix when we come west.

Ray
Gekle
July 11, 2009
the wood
1085 posts
JohnBob:
you didn't upset me... I just feel that it's unlikely that you'll be objective when you have an ax to grind... you have every right to express yourself on here and it's not necessary for us to agree... my original concern about combining M & M+ is the same as yours (not knowing where your team lies in the 60 M hierachy)... the difference is that it's tougher for you to see the big picture if your primary concern is your own team's dilemma... our team will still play M+ whether they combine the divisions or not.
BW
July 12, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Hey Ray,
Have you guys given any thought about coming east to the ISSA Worlds in Manassas? With the senior bats being allowed now, it will be quite competitive this year. Seacrest is coming, along with Damons and Hendricks and several other very good Major Plus teams. It would be a great opportunity for us guys on the east coast to watch some of the top teams in the country play. Good Luck In Georgia!
July 12, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Diehard that is an open date for us,we play 2 weeks prior to and 1 week after that date.Would be interested with good participation in M+.Sounds like you have a good start.Will be in touch.
Ray
Gekle
July 12, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Diehard we did play Roanoke ISF World Cup last year.We try to play in most area's of the country.Always looking for good Tournaments with good participation.
Thanks
July 12, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Ray,

I saw some of your games in Salem, and I also saw you play in Phoenix. Hope you guys can make it to Manassas.
July 12, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Gekle, I know that nobody will come up to the Northwest, although they should, you won't find it raining the whole tournament with 95% humidity. We would love to come to a tournament where we could play more than 3 teams. We have very little sponsorship so we have to stay on the West Coast. You are mistaken to assume we are avoiding playing because we are Major-plus.
July 12, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
John B, foothills.
I just reread your ample response
on ball performance in differing
conditions.
It's brilliant and thanks a lot.
All the more reason to be vigilant
and to challenge self interested
marketeers who are trying to change
the game we love
to something else.

There's no reason why we can't play/use
good bats/balls whenever we play.
Not one that holds any water
anywhere, in any part of the country
anywhere in senior ball.
Everything and anyone who's telling
us our game is too dangerous
is trying to sell us something
now matter how popular or "informed"
they claim to be.

It's more important now than ever
in these economically demanding
and depressing times
to enjoy our game while we can
and it may mean saying NO WAY
loud and clear to those who don't have
the best interest of us and
our game, the senior game, at heart.

I'm going to SPA this weekend
and I expect there to be good balls there, better than the ones Ridge used last year.
I heard he fired his ball company
for taking it upon itself
to dumb down the balls without his approval.
Bravo, Ridge.
See you in Dalton.
July 13, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Jawood,did not assume that you were avoiding M+ teams,simply stating that to find more than 2 or 3 teams in a div. you have to do a little research and a little travel.We played you guys last year in Phoenix and it's obvious that you have a team that can play at this level and win.No hard feelings bro,just responding to your comments about know one to play.I certainly understand the sponsor money issue I think most of us are in the same boat when it comes to travel expenses.
July 14, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Yes, I know we are not the only ones with money issues. We will try our best to aquire more sponsorship in 2010, no matter where we play. We will be in Phoenix in October this season.
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