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Discussion: Should Umpires Be More Aggresive to inventory Bats before the game

Posted Discussion
Aug. 8, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Should Umpires Be More Aggresive to inventory Bats before the game
I was in a 3 day weekend tournament in PA, I took a quick look at bats leaning against the fences of opposing side, and noticed a couple of illegal bats. Why can't unpires take a quick inventory of bats used before the game starts?
Aug. 8, 2009
TommyMass
24 posts
YES.....just because a bat 1.20 stamped on it does not by itself make the bat legal.....dents, shaved, loaded etc.
Aug. 8, 2009
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
I don't think you can tell if a bat is shaved or loaded by even picking up and looking at the bat.
Aug. 8, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
D3B,what kind of tourney you playing in,if its a senior one then most all bats are legal,except for the ultra-1 and titanium.what bats did you see that you thought were illegal.
Aug. 8, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
md the bats I saw are on the 2009 illegal list. I never watched if those bats were used for batting practice or used in the game. My question for discussion is directed to Umpire duties. I never see umpires directing any concerns wether players actually use illegal bats.
Aug. 9, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Stetch14 ok on shaved, or loaded. I still feel umpires should go through some sort of inspection before the game. To slow down the use of illegal bats. Same concept when Police car sits in a hidden spot off a highway. The fact that police are looking, speeders slow down. In this case players know umps are not looking, or are they?
Aug. 9, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
1. Senior game allows bats with BPF 1.2 standard.
2. A good catcher will look over the bats that are dropped after the batter hits the ball and departs for 1st base. If he believe that a bat is altered he will bring it to the attention of the officials.
3. Players also have a responsibility to inform officials of issues.
4. During routine league games it is a chore to inspect 60-80 bats especially when time is tight.
Bats at national tournaments are done at check in and labeled/marked.
Aug. 9, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Thanks for your feedback Airbosn. So officials are not inspecting bats. I'd like to think that "good catchers" are on the lookout for altered bats. I've never in a league game seen anyone address to official the use of altered bats. I do here players come back to their own team bench and wisper to their own players that opposing bats are altered. hhhmmmm. If a catcher is suggested by the SSA to be on the lookout for illegal bats, then it should be in some kind of policy or rule that catchers have this additional requirement to report altered/illegal bats to officials during the course of the game. If we continue to make players responsible to report altered bats to the officials,,,,,, Remember the pinetar incedent with the Yankees and Royals where Craig Nettles-NYY reported to the officials that George Brett had too much pinetar on his bat after he hit a home run. Tempers flared.....It wasn't a way to do business. Your thoughts.......
Aug. 9, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4357 posts
Stretch14,
Two ways, but primarily (easiest) by the sound resinous difference they will make from a stock bat.
Other way (sometimes) is by ball bounce height. Kinda like dropping balls to ground to see which bounces the highest.
Neither 100% but close enough to get inspected.
Aug. 9, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Taits..... unique concepts...."The sound resinous",and "by ball bounce" from a stocked bat. Interesting, this could be ways to begin the challenge for an official to inspect.
Aug. 10, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4357 posts
defense3B
Simple really, take a 2 glasses that are the same type fill one with water almost to the top and the other half way. Tap each with a spoon,
Actually a proven method, but there are many that still won't take the time.
e-me @ tait_ebay@yahoo.com two others.
Aug. 10, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
So to recap a possible way to create a rule to reduce the use of illegal bats is to have "catchers Only RULE" have the responsibility for the sake of his or her team to be on the lookout for the use of illegal/altered bats. Lets think about how often the catcher is allowed to challenge a bat. HHHmmmm....Lets say the catcher after viewing the top 9 batters is allowed a one time challenge to the official.....Your thoughts......
Aug. 10, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4357 posts
Have too many rules now, the one in place works, it's just not implemented.
Responsibility falls on UMPS, TD's, and ultimately the all the teams.
Catchers have the best view, as it were, to hear sound differences or the same bat being used by many players,
I've seen major tournaments where you check in with the bat's your going to swing or share. They are marked. Any other bat seen but not marked is considered illegal.
So no "catchers" rule needed. They might suggest to a ump\TD to check, it is now done,
Aug. 10, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Taits.... Maybe one more rule will protect the integrity of the game and enhance the safety of our players. A Rule gets implemented,responsibilities rarely do. Your thoughts....
Aug. 10, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4357 posts
Might add interpretations to the list.
Like many have said, too many rules in place as it is. That i agree on but wording and rationale for some are questionable.
I think possibly a re-wording of the current rule would be better than a "new" rule that really covers it if implemented like you say.
"Responsibilities" to the job(s) at hand are a two way street, those who pay for the service and those who are supposed to do that job. Taking UMPS as a target job example: If you don't do the job as "directed", you lose the job. You do the job better than another, perhaps you get a better field to work or time slots. There are all kinds of variables here.
But I wouldn't want to write it, that's for sure.
No additional new rule, hows that?
Aug. 10, 2009
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
395 posts
Easier to go to metal bats and 47/525 or better balls. It would solve a lot of todays problems.

I have a stack of senior bats that all sound different and react diferent as well depending on how new or well broken in they are.
Aug. 10, 2009
jolly52
Men's 55
49 posts
I think the original question was checking bats the are approved for the tourny your playing in be it ASA, NSA,USSSA etc., I have seen bats banned in ASA tourny's being used and I think that should be an easy catch for any ump out there... Old thought on altered bats was sound but its not even close to 100% correct, just grap 5 U2's and they all have a differn't sound according to age and use. If you see a bat being used in a tourny on the bat banned list just tell the batter and give him a chance to fix the mistake as I know all of us at one time grab the wrong bat for tourny rules and started to the plate with it... with so many rules and bat list it would be easy to do... Give the player a break and just let him know... never had a problem with just letting them know... JMO
Aug. 10, 2009
ROOSTER10
Men's 60
91 posts
In a tournament we went to a team used a bat which got passed on to as many as 8 of the players.After our catcher saw numerous home runs hit out he questioned the umpire who replied these guys can hit them out with wooden bats.Anyway the jest of the story they got caught at another tournament in which the bat turned out to be a ultra 1 painted as a freck 98. I realize umpires have alot to deal with but a statement like that should never be taken by any team.
Aug. 10, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Rooster10 Exactly my point....eight players on one team are all in agreement to use illegal bats. So how can we stop this from happening? How can we protect the integrity of the game and enhance the safety of our players?
Aug. 10, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Do you think disciplinary measures would work. For example lets say in the third inning the catcher finds batter using illegal bat. The official acknowledges the illegal bat thus the loses runs. Take a run or two away from the team that allowed their player to use an illegal bat. Your thoughts
Aug. 10, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
first i want to challenge anyone who says they can tell an altered bat by the sound of it.don't care who you think you are,can't be done.only way would be if a composite was painted to look like a metal bat,then yes i would say you could prolly tell.
now on passing a bat around,yes the kids team i first started playing with here where i live had nothing but walmart bats,so they got to hit my composite bats.now my senior teams i've played with will have a variety of senior bats in various stages of break in.we will let each other use them(well most of the time :):)))but its not passing them like u are talking about.
as for the penalty,it should be auto ejection(for player using and onwer of said bat,and the coach of the team)and banned from playing at least a yr min.i add the coach of the team to the penalty as he is the one in charge of the team and needs to know what kind of players he has on his team and needs to keep them off his team.
Aug. 10, 2009
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
Mad dog, I agree 100%.
Aug. 10, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
OK mad dog so disciplinary measures are more of a necessity. auto ejection for player using the illegal bat and owner of said bat, and to extend the ejection to the coach of the team. This could lead to three immediate ejections. It makes sense to me, it makes a lot of sense. This is more the actions senior softball officials need to take to protect the integrity of the game and enhance the safety of our players. Anyone else can add to ways we can rid the use of illegal bats?
Aug. 11, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2644 posts
We're talking about two different subjects, illegal and altered bats. I believe some associations rule that if you enter the batter's box with an illegal bat you are out. If you enter the batters's box with an altered bat you are ejected.
Aug. 11, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Bruce is correct, additionally, one must remember that there is a protest fee that goes along with a bat challenge. Determining if a bat has been altered using the Mark I, Mod 0, eyeball is extremely difficult.
Aug. 11, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Thanks BruceinGA, and Airbosn......interesting association rule. Anyone know if these associations have been implementing these rules? Do players adhere to this rule?
Aug. 11, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Taits..I'm leaning toward your earlier feedback "I think possibly a re-wording of the current rule would be better than a "new" rule that really covers it if implemented like you say"
Aug. 11, 2009
UMP IN NORTH GA.
47 posts
I WAS ASKED ABOUT THIS LAST NIGHT AT LEAGUE SO OF COARSE I HAD TO COME SEE ... LET ME FIRST SAY I'M NOT A BAT DOCTOR AND I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON BAT DOCTORING BUT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CATCH A FEW NOT SO GOOD ATTEMPS AT IT ... AS A UMPIRE OF DIFFERENT ASSN. I HAVE TO TRY TO REMMEBER WHAT IS LEAGAL FOR EACH GROUP ... SHORT OF BRINGING A 20 PAGE LIST OF LEAGAL BATS TO THE FIELD ON A GIVEN NIGHT I TRY TO MEMORIZE THE ILLEGAL ONES LESS TO REMMEBER ...

1. DO I CHECK EVERY BAT EVERY NIGHT OR AT TOURNEYS AS I WALK THRU THE DUGOUT ... NO ... MOST HAVE THEM IN THERE BAT BAG AN I'M NOT DIGGING THRU THERE STUFF

2. I HAVE SEEN SOME SWINGING AN ILLEGAL BAT BEFORE A GAME AND TOLD THEM PUT IT AWAY ITS NOT LEGAL HERE

3. AT TOURNEYS AFTER BAT CHECKIN I WILL LOOK AT BATS LAID OUT AND TELL THE COACHES AT THE PREGAME TO SHOW ME THE WRIST BANS AND THE CERT. STICKER ON THE BAT AS THEY COME UP ...

4. IF THINGS ARE MOVING ALONG AND I DONT CHECK FOR SOME REASON DURING THAT AT BAT THEY HIT WITH IT AND IT'S FOUND ILLEGAL I FEEL THEY ARE SUBJECT TO THE RULES IN THE BOOK ... I'M NOT A BAY SETTER OR THE BAT POLICE TO CHECK EVERY TIME UP ...

IN CLOSEING I HAVE FOUND MORE ALTERED BATS AT MAJOR MAJOR+ TOURNEYS THEN THE AAA AA I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT ... YA'LL ARE GIVEN THE HOTTEST BATS TO USE YET SOME FEEL THEY HAVE TO CHEAT TO GET A FEW EXTRA FEET ... AND FOR WHAT A TSHIRT AND A PLAQUE AT NATIONALS BEYOND ME ...

JESSE
Aug. 11, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
yes bruce it is 2 diff subjects,mine was on the altered bat(shaving,painted and such).now as for bringing a non-assoc bat to the plate,it depends on the assoc you are playing.ASA(most of what i get to play here other than senior ball) if i remember right is an out and ejection for the player stepping into the batter's box with said illegal bat.the other's i'm not sure about,but ASA is the most severe in punishment.
Aug. 11, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
UMP IN NORTH GA thank you for your input towards this discussion. Your detailed input is very much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
Aug. 11, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2644 posts
I am familiar with this rule being called twice. The first time was in Pensacola (Len, do you remember?). Rick Sarlie was called out for bringing a cracked bat to the plate. I don't remember if he was ejected.
The second instance was about 8 weeks ago in our ASA coed league. I had recently read the local rules so I knew them. A player on the opposition used a Freak Plus and grounded out. I told him and his coach that the bat was not approved and that he shouldn't use it again.
A couple of innings later he came to bat with it again. I told the umpire that the bat wasn't approved and after looking at it the umpire agreed. He also said that since the batter didn't swing, no harm. I said no, the rules state if you enter the box with an illegal bat the batter will be called out. The rule also stated the second offense will result in ejection. Remember, these are local rules.
Aug. 11, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Bruce, he was not ejected. I was umping a game a short while ago when a batter asked me to look over his bat to verify if the bat was cracked or it was just the paint chipping or crazing...One quick look and bat was removed from the game. Experienced players know when a bat is unnacceptable, however, there are a FEW, VERY FEW in senior ball who will try for every edge, legal or otherwise.
Aug. 11, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4357 posts
SSUSA rule:3.4(7) PENALTY FOR USING AN ILLEGAL
OR ALTERED BAT A. SSUSA agreed to follow the 2007 Summit Altered Bat Recommendation:
Penalty for Using an Altered Bat: If a bat is suspected of being
altered to enhance performance, the tournament committee will determine if the bat will continue in play or be held for inspection. If the player refuses to turn over the bat, the player will be suspended

PLAYING RULES
for 10 years and the manager for one year and the team will forfeit all games. If the player voluntarily releases the bat and it is found to be altered to enhance performance, the player will be suspended
for 5 years and the manager for one year. A second offense may result in the lifetime ban of the player.
Any attempt to use an illegal bat in SSWC or SSUSA play will result in the batter being called out and ejected from the game. Base runners will be instructed to return to the base(s) occupied at the
time the illegal bat was used, providing there are fewer than three (3) outs. Use of an altered bat will also result in the following:
1. Batter will be called out and ejected from the tournament.
2. The bat will be confiscated for testing through the National
SSUSA Office.

Under SPA rules, Sec 1 sub F:
If the player refuses to turn over the bat. The player will be ejected from the tournament and suspended from SPA for ten (10) years,
the manager of record for one (1) year, and the team will forfeit all games. If the player voluntarily releases the bat and it found to be altered. The player will be suspended for five (5) years, the
manager of record for one (1) year. A second offense may result in the lifetime ban from SPA of the player.

ASA about the same. Most rules are like these.
Aug. 11, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think umpires both before and during a game
should exercise their right/ability to check, challenge, eliminate and eject players and illegal equipment.
It was how this whole ball/bat controversy got out of hand giving rise to new ball standards that have hurt our game.
We need to detect, judge and prosecute
offenders not everyone else for wrong doing.
This is as simple as it gets
yet those who have become obvious to us
in marketing and administration
have seen value and ease with a one stroke solution
in going to changing the ball
effectively punishing all for the few.
Punishing all for the few
is undemocratic, unAmerican, ignorant,
counter-productive, tyrannical and usually self serving for those who push
and wish to profit from it the most.
We know who these people are now
loud and clear with their positions and behavior
this year and we won't tolerate it or them anymore.

We will play with good balls and bats, period.
We will play with HR's as singles, period.
We will expose everyone and anyone who doesn't see us and support us
and we will actively boycott them
and their associations and companies.
That's what next year looks like
because we've had enough and deserve the best
from one another and anyone who wants to be associated with us.
Aug. 11, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Thanks Taits and especially you einstein for driving our discussion closer to a positive resolution. Its amazing how passionate we all are when it comes to protecting the integrity of the game and enhancing the safety of our players. You all or should I say yall are special people who fight for the betterment of the game.
Aug. 12, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2644 posts
Here is the SPA rule pertaining to altered bats:
Sec. 1 ALTERED BAT: A bat is considered altered when the physical structure of a legal bat has been changed to enhance its performance.
EFFECT: If the bat has been determined to have been altered, the ball is dead, the batter is out and the base runners cannot advance. The batter is ejected from the tournament and suspended from any SPA events for a period of one (1) year. If the UIC and Tournament Director cannot determine if a bat has been altered without further testing, the bat will be removed from the tournament and the player will be allowed to continue playing, with the understanding that should further test prove the bat to be altered he/she will be suspended
from SPA for two (2) years.
NOTE: THERE IS "NO APPEAL" REGARDING RULE 1, SECTION 1

Here is more:
Sec. 1 THE OFFICIAL BAT:
a. SPA has adopted a Bat Performance Factor (BPF) of 1.20 or less. All bats with a BPF of 1.20 or less, for the entire length of the barrel or hitting surface, are approved for use in the SPA program, unless the SPA believes that a particular bat has been altered to enhance its performance, . If a bat test over BPF 1.20, then it is not legal for S.P.A. play and the user could be suspended by SPA.
12
b. All bats used in SPA play must be stamped with a BPF of 1.20 or less. Bats without the BPF stamped on the bat will be considered illegal. Exception: Wooden bats do not have to be stamped with BPF 1.20 and may be used and are legal in all SPA play if they meet the standards set forth by the S.P.A. (The bat shall not be more than 34 inches in length and no more than 38 ounces in weight. Wooden bats must be stamped “Official Softball”). A maximum of two layers of tape wrap is allowed on all legal bats with no tape covering the end of the bat knob.
c. A bat is considered altered when the physical structure of a legal bat has been changed to enhance its performance. Examples of altering a bat include, but are not limited to, the following: painting a bat to disguise its true identity, shaving the wall of a bat to increase the flex of a bat, replacing or altering the handle of a bat to extend the length of the bat, changing the weight or distribution of the weight of the bat, by inserting or removing materials inside the bat. A manufactured or professionally installed flare or cone grip is considered legal.
d. All bat protest are subject to final review by the S.P.A. Executive Director and the National Umpire-In-Chief.
e. When a bat is suspected of being altered to enhance performance, the opposing team may protest the bat. In order for the protest to be allowed then the opposing team must submit a $450 cash protest fee to the Home Plate Umpire. If the fee is not paid immediately then the protest is waived and the opposing team cannot make any additional protest against that bat for the duration of the tournament. A bat removed from play will remain in the custody of the SPA Umpire-In-Chief or Tournament Director until it can be forwarded to SPA National Headquarters for further evaluation and resolution of the protest. If the bat is found to be legal that bat or a replacement bat will be provided to the challenged player at the discretion of SPA. If the bat is found to be illegal, the protest fee will be returned to the opposing manager.
f. If the player refuses to turn over the bat. The player will be ejected from the tournament and suspended from SPA for ten (10) years, the manager of record for one (1) year, and the team will forfeit all games. If the player voluntarily releases the bat and it found to be altered. The player will be suspended for five (5) years, the manager of record for one (1) year. A second offense may result in the lifetime ban from SPA of the player
Aug. 12, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Thanks Bruce
Aug. 12, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
The original question was " Should the umpires be responsible (aggressive)for checking bats before and during a game?
As an umpire I feel the responsibility of managing the game (balls,strikes,rule interpretations)is plenty enough to worry about. Bats should be examined at resistration and the umpire should only be required to look for the acceptance sticker. If the opposing team wants to protest a bat, there are appeal rules that govern that and the TD's become involved at that point. At ISA Worlds the umpires were responsible for keeping score on fields with scoreboards that didn't work and no offical score keepers on any fields that I played on. Come on guys give these umps a break.
Aug. 12, 2009
Joncon
289 posts
Should Umpires Be More Aggresive to inventory Bats before the game ?



No. They already have enough to do.

This is the catchers job.

If you are concerned about illegal bats, you should have a list printed out with pictures.

If your catcher spots one, he can point it out and ask the ump to take the appropriate action.

As far as altered bats, it's going to have to be pretty obvious before an ump will do anything.

In city league play, an opposing team was using an Ultra II. All they did was place a sticker (like a bumper sitcker) that read "Nasty", over the U2 portion. The ump didn't do anything until I went to my truck and brought back a U2 for him to compare it with.

Umps have a hard enough time remembering how many outs there are. Lets not confuse them with any more responsibilities.....Right Dan??
Aug. 12, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
OK Corky and Joncon this discussion group understands how difficult in can be for umpires to somehow put some time into watching out for illegal bats. Catchers looking out was a suggestion, and somehow probably needs to be included in the final resolution on how this control rule will be implemented. Bases on case by case experiences from the players and umps there are some local rules that actually work, and the umpires are part of those rules. So lets stay optimistic, and keep the ideas coming.
Aug. 12, 2009
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
I agree with Corky. Just deal with it. A lot of the players are using illegal bats. Play ball.
Aug. 13, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Exactly my Point Stretch14, "A lot of players are using illegal bats!" There are many suggestions to place more controls on this concern. Remember this discussion is all about protecting the integrity of the game and enhancing the safety of our players. So keep your ideas coming.
Aug. 13, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
2009 ASA banned bats: Anderson: Techzilla Reborn,Rocket Reloaded. Boombah: Canon. Combat: Anaconda original,B-1 Da Bomb,B-1 Da Bomb Combat, Gear Virus, Uncensored,VIRSP3 Lady Virus, Virus,Virus Enhanced, Virus Players Series. Demarini: Dark, Juice, DXEVO-Yellow Barrel EVO,Juggernaut OTC. Easton: SCN2Synergy+CNT,SCN10BHSynergy+HelmerModel,SCX2Synergy,SCX23SynergyPlus,SCN4StealthCompCNT+, SCN6StealthCompCNT+,Synergy2,Synthesis,Stealth IMX+,Synergy= SCN12,Synergy=SCN12 BH. Louisville(TPS): Slugger FPC305 Catalyst (-8),Slugger SB34 Genesis,Slugger SB72N TPS,Slugger SB72N Nexus,Slugger SB105 Catalyst,Slugger SB304,Slugger SB305 Warrior XXL Balanced,Slugger SB404,Slugger SB405 Warrior XXL Endload,Slugger SB304,Slugger SB305 Warrior XXL Balanced,Slugger SB404,Slugger SB405 Warrior XXL Endload,Slugger SB82N Nexus,Mattingly: Beast Unleashed, Miken: Freak Plus, MSMM Maniac 585, MS Freak, MSTC T22C6,MXB (MSMXBBMU),MXB (MSMXBBU),NRG600 Pro 600 Maxload-MSNRGM-6,NRG600 Pro-Series 600 MSNRGM-6, Orange DRF 250,Orange Recoil DFR 180, ULTRA, ULTRAII, ULTRAII Advanced, ULTRA II Legacy, Ultra(Maxload). MIZUNO: Blur Advanced Series, Wrath 120, Wrath 2 120,Frenzy 98, Frenzy 1.20. Nokona: Tomahawk. Rawlings: PlasmaFusion 120 SBLMPFU,Plasma SBLMP 120,
Aug. 13, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Sorry left out a few. ASA banned bats continued. Rawlings:Rush 120. Rip It:Elite Senior RESR1 (SP Version Only), Schutt: Schutt+, Worth: ASY 120 (Asylum),EST9,Launch 510,M7JH,MAX 120,MAY 120(Mayhem),Mayhem,Mayhem M7 120(M7120, Mayhem M75 120,Mayhem M7JH, Mayhem(Reload J120),Mutant 120, JH120, Mutant JH120,PST 120,PSTOC(PST),QESTFP, Resmondo Mutant,Resmondo Titan, Titan,WIC 120 (Wicked),Wicked (Wicked SP Version Only),Wicked SBWK, SBWKA,WWSC Wicked Comp (SP Version Only,XRED,XWICKX (Wicked SP Version Only),XGOLD,XPST4,XEST9X,WWSCA. OK Catchers, Umpires and Mangers you can print this 2009 ASA banned bat list and carry it with you. Its a start.
Aug. 14, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
In defense, defense3b, it took me about 5 min to look over the list of ASA banned bats. That list varies depending on the association. We gripe about time limits now, can you imagine what it would take away from the game if the umpires had to pull out the sheet you mentioned, even if only in the first inning?? The legality of the bats needs to be determined by tournament officials before the event begins and marked. Then all we have to worry about are counterfit stickers LOL. "Keep on Playin"
Aug. 14, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
This thread seems to be about ASA. Unless I'm mistaken you cannot take a bat to the plate in an ASA unless it clearly has to be marked as follows ( got this off the ASA website)

must bear either the ASA approved 2000 certification mark or the ASA 2004 certification mark as shown below.
Aug. 14, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
I don't think it is soley ASA. It's about umpires doing the bat checks. If the ASA stamp is all I need then My ASA stamped UltraII is good right??
We know better right lecak.
Aug. 14, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Corky true that. I was simplyfing my understanding, the stamp probably captures 99% of the problem, the ASA website does offer additional info. What I posted works real well for new bats you will have to give me that one.
Aug. 14, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
you got it brother
Aug. 14, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
OK let me try. Lets say we lay most of the responsibility to the Manager/Coach to check the bats of the players he fields. Then before the game starts, the coach must report to the umpire that all bats meet (local rules, asa rules, SSA rules) what ever the association rule that is in effect. Now we continue to go with the original rule when a player challenges a bat and it is illegal. Now the official don't need to spend time on inventory 50 bats before a game. He only needs to look up the one bat that gets challenged. Easy enough. Your thoughts.......
Aug. 14, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
I think that works for Illegal bats but not necessarilly for altered bats.
Since the TD's have insurance policies on most tournaments, They should be motivated to make sure they won't need to make a claim. Check bats (Tournament Officials) at check in and stamp. The ones used by SPA for the nationals seem to work well. You cannot transfer the sticker to another bat and only those with stickers are legal to swing. It's then simple for the umpire to identfy legal bats.
Aug. 15, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
yep corky i still have one myself.:):) joe is not old enough to know bout them (:0).i had a kid come to the plate with one and i just look at him for a sec,than pitched him the nicest cookie he could ever see,as soon as he hit the ball i made my way to the dugout to get said bat before it was put away.got the ump to look at it and of course he was new and i had to explain it wasn't legal for ASA for a few yrs now.kid complain that it had a ASA stamp,oh this was a no hr lo-loop league,don't know why he would want to use it there anyways.
Aug. 15, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
So if we re-word the current rule to include: "The team coach/manager must inventory the (team that he fields bats)against ASA banned bats list, and did a visual check to identify altered bats. Once he completes this task he must report to the game official before the game begins that, "100% of the bats were inventoried, and to the best of my knowledge all of his players bats are legal for play." This adds another eye to the growing concern of the use of illegal bats during official tournament play. Your thoughts.........
Aug. 15, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
D3B yes it is good to see your wanting to rid ASA from the banned bats,but we are a senior org,we only have a couple of banned bats.you should find an ASA board and get them to look into it.
for the use of banned bats it should not be the manager's job to police that,its the LD,TD,umps and such and watchful eyes of the other team.


now for the altered bats(shaved,painted,endloading,etc)yes the manager is responible for those on his team,as most likely they would be legal looking to circumvent the rules.
Aug. 16, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Mad Dog their is just too many eye witnesses that vouch that the current illegal/altered bat procedures in place is not working. There is still a bunch of players making it to the plate with illegal and altered bats even at the senior org. Some eye witnesses say in some cases the entire team use altered bates. It would be the easiest solution to sweep this concern under the rug and say "Play Ball". I propose to re-consider the additional duty to have all team managers/coaches to take one more look at those bats before the game starts. Have the team manager/coach provide game umpire a verbal/or pre-printed statement signed that states: "100% of the bats were inventoried, and to the best of my knowledge all of his players bats are legal for play."
Aug. 16, 2009
UMP IN NORTH GA.
47 posts
OK LETS DO THIS AT NATIONALS TD SUPPLIES ONE BAT PER TEAM TO BE LEFT IN THE DUG OUT ALL BATTERS MUST USE THAT BAT .... SAME WEIGHT SAME MANUFACTURE SAME LENGTH FOR ALL TEAMS .... AT DALTON THAT WOULD BE 20 BATS NEEDED PLUS A COUPLE EXTRA INCASE OF BRAKAGE ... OR JUST ONE BAT PER FIELD THE BAT STAYS WITH THE UMP AT THE PLATE EVEN LESS BATS .... SPEC. COLOR BAT SO THERE IS NO CHEATING ....

IM GOOD FOR THIS
JESSE
Aug. 16, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
With so many guys swinging so many different makes, models, and weights, it won't fly. Just more complaining.
Aug. 16, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
Actually Corky each manager usually fields the same players each game with maybe a 20% fill in ratio due to players traveling, etc. So the team coach should have a current list of his players and bats they swing. Its not that the coach needs to inventory bats each game. I'm sure one or two players want to swing a new bat in a game, the coach just needs to add that bat to his list. No big deal once the coach takes his first inventory, and rule requires him to do it. In my opinion The "better control factor" of illegal/altered bats will improve the integrity of the game and enhance the safety of our players, and out way coaches complaining about this additional duty. Their may even be coaches that will actually embrace this change.
Aug. 16, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
yes D3B on the rules not being effective on altered bats is right on.it really is hard to detect them(mostly the shaving of bats and endloading them,some painted ones i've seen are terrible and are not hard to spot,but a good painted one you can't tell readily).for SPA they check all bats before thier major tourney's and they put a halogram sticker on them.you can use a bat with out the sticker on.
on the manager keeping a list,well there is a lot of us that have many bats as we play in diff assoc's.even for my asa play i can bring 10 bats for play(usaully only 4 tho)as i'm the bat ho for a couple of my kids teams i play with.i bring the ones that need breaking in LOL.once they become broke they become my gamer,LOL.

for the illegal bat for the assoc that you might be playing(usssa bat and using in asa)that is the ump's pregame quick check and then mostly up to the opposing team to watch out.now i do know of some umps that will keep an eye out for the illegal use,but they are usally players themselves.this is not the hard part in enforcing the rules as you can look at the bat for assoc stamps.
Aug. 16, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
oops that was supposed to say,in spa you can not use a bat with out a sticker on
Aug. 19, 2009
defense3B
Men's 55
40 posts
I just found a site that influnces altered bats. :0(

http://www.batsource.net/index.html
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